Alrighty. I've been playing on Shoddy for a while, with an altogether mediocre rating at best. I usually run rather gimmicky offensive teams, but I'm giving stall a shot (albeit admittedly rather gimmicky too). This does need quite a bit of work, but I have playtested and identified some of the threats that this needs some tweaking to handle. Thanks in advance for any and all advice.
Here's the team!
(Sprites courtesy of http://www.dragonflycave.com/testing.htm)
Dusknoir (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-o-wisp
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
---
Dusknoir is primarily a spinblocker. Shadow Sneak lets it beat Starmie without too much difficulty, earthquake handles Tentacruel, and fire punch 2HKOs Forretress. Will-o-wisp cripples the rare donphan spinner.
Shadow Sneak also 2HKOs Azelf leads, while Earthquake + Shadow Sneak beats Infernape leads. Most of the other common leads don't appreciate being burned, and can't really do much at all to Dusknoir, allowing me to switch to something that can take advantage of the situation.
Dusknoir also baits in Tyranitar, Scizor, and other common pursuit users, none of which can 1HKO Dusknoir, while Dusknoir can burn them either on the switch-in or after a weak pursuit. After revealing will-o-wisp or fire punch, Dusknoir also lures Heatran, who is quickly beaten with earthquake.
The dark and ghost attacks commonly aimed at Dusknoir are also perfect opportunities for Forretress to come in and set up.
This could potentially be switched with Rotom-A, and Gliscor could be given more speed and moved to the lead position. However, I'm wary of losing Gliscor early game to a bad predict against Swampert leads, which Gliscor loses to rather badly. Dusknoir doesn't do particularly well against most leads, but he is consistent and fails against none.
Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dynamicpunch
- Stone Edge
---
Machamp provides another bulky pokemon and a status absorber, as well as useful resistances to dark and rock. Stone Edge was opted for over Payback to help check Salamence and to a lesser extent Gyarados, although Rotom-A is troubling as well, so I am considering Payback. This is also perhaps the least essential pokemon on the team: although it does provide checks to some physical threats as well as a couple of key resistances (including the team's sole rock resistance), it could perhaps be switched out with something. Still, Machamp has helpful typing, recovery, decent bulk, and Dynamicpunch, making him a decent option for this team spot.
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/6 Atk/252 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Payback
---
Forretress is one of the big stars of this team, offering Spikes support, which really every stall team needs, Rapid Spin, which is quite nice against opposing stall, and a way to stop Outraging Salamence. Gyro Ball was chosen so that Forretress has a solid option to damage Salamence with, while Payback is of some use for hitting Rotom-A on the switch in. Spikes was chosen over Toxic Spikes as a substantial portion of my team appreciates being able to burn things. Payback could potentially be switched out if a strong pursuiter were added somewhere, either for Toxic Spikes, which would potentially be of help, or for Pain Split, which, although difficult to use, could extend Forretress's life span somewhat. Fire attacks aimed at Forretress can be directed towards Vaporeon, while weaker special attacks can be sent to Gardevoir.
Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/228 Def/28 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Surf
---
Vaporeon is quite bulky and provides the team with a Gyarados counter as well as sturdy wish support. The EVs are simply chosen to maximize defenses. Electric attacks aimed at Vaporeon can be walled by Gliscor without trouble, while Forretress welcomes grass-typed attacks as an opportunity to set up Spikes.
Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Taunt
---
Gliscor is my main physical wall, taking most physical attacks, as well as ground, electric, fighting, and bug attacks. Earthquake is for STAB, Roost is basic recovery. Gliscor is also vital as my Stealth Rocker. Taunt helps with opposing stall, although given the relatively low speed, it is of somewhat limited use. Taunt could be switched for Stone Edge, providing better coverage, or a particular move like Ice Fang to help deal with specific threats. Gliscor could also be run with a faster set to help beat Ice Punch Lucario and to taunt things, although it would lose a significant amount of bulk by doing so. Vaporeon gladly takes ice or water attacks directed at Gliscor and uses the opportunity to pass wishes to the rest of the team.
Gardevoir (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/6 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Encore
- Wish
- Will-o-wisp
- Heal Bell
---
Gardevoir, although a very unusual choice for an OU team, does offer a lot to the team. It lures pokemon like Tyranitar and Scizor in to be burned, Encores slow set up pokemon, substitutes, sleep talkers, and all sorts of other things that stall has trouble with, walls weaker special attacks, passes wishes around, cures status, walls Heatran, Jolteon, helps intimidate down Salamence in emergencies, and even traps, encores, burns, and stalls Magnezones that kill Forretress. The speed is there to land quicker burns and encores, most notably beating non-scarf Heatran, letting me lock it into a fire move. In addition, encore causes lots of switches (racking up residual damage) and is the closest this team currently has to p-hazing. The ghost, bug, and dark attacks aimed at Gardevoir are also all setup bait for Forretress, letting it get more spikes down.
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This team does have some trouble with certain pokemon:
A very well played Salamence can potentially eliminate a lot of the team. Burns from Dusknoir or Gardevoir help keep it in check, as does Stone Edge on Machamp and Gyro Ball on Forretress. Still, Salamence tends to not be all that hard to predict around, and Stealth Rock keeps it from doing too much.
Although the more common Crocune is utterly shut down by both Gardevoir and Vaporeon, offensive Suicune is quite threatening (CM + 3 Attack variants, with enough speed to outrun Gardevoir's encore).
Likewise, quick set up sweepers that I'm less prepared for could be troublesome, and a quick substitute user like Gengar can be brutal to deal with.
Rotom-A is difficult, as it has great coverage and blocks spins. Shadow Sneak from Dusknoir can take out weakened variants, however, and Payback from Forretress can chip it down. Stone Edge on Machamp could be swapped to Payback to help deal with this.
This team also lacks a good trick absorber. My options are to just condemn something to take the scarf, run something awful like a Muk, give a wall Mail (which can't be tricked, although it would be the loss of leftovers, which everyone really appreciates), give a wall Trick to get rid of a scarf given to it, or add a scarfer of my own. Of these, either just sucking up the scarf or adding a scarfer seem to be the most viable.
Obviously, this team has some major weaknesses; it's really my first major effort in making a stall team. Still, I've had some decent success with it. I need help identifying more threats that this can't handle well and finding options to deal with them, as well as more minor things, like moveset and spread tweaks.
Machamp feels like the most expendable, really, and Dusknoir could be replaced by a Rotom set if it'll be helpful. Really, there's a lot of polishing to be done, but playtesting and theorymoning indicates that this is at least a solid start. Adding a phazer would be helpful, as well as a strong pursuiter. Tyranitar can do both, although he's a somewhat poor roarer. Sandstorm support would help Gliscor out a bit, though, and complement the generally stallish feel. Tyranitar would take dark and ghost attacks well, and add a flying resist, which I currently don't have (again, Rotom might be helpful, but I'm not sure), and the bug weakness is of little importance. A Suicune set could go over Vaporeon, trading wish support for phazing duty; although Gardevoir does already provide wish support, it isn't terribly bulky, and Vaporeon is quite helpful. Vaporeon could also run ice beam over surf, making it into a Salamence check at the expense of STAB.
Thanks in advance for any and all help with this team.
Here's the team!
(Sprites courtesy of http://www.dragonflycave.com/testing.htm)
Dusknoir (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-o-wisp
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
---
Dusknoir is primarily a spinblocker. Shadow Sneak lets it beat Starmie without too much difficulty, earthquake handles Tentacruel, and fire punch 2HKOs Forretress. Will-o-wisp cripples the rare donphan spinner.
Shadow Sneak also 2HKOs Azelf leads, while Earthquake + Shadow Sneak beats Infernape leads. Most of the other common leads don't appreciate being burned, and can't really do much at all to Dusknoir, allowing me to switch to something that can take advantage of the situation.
Dusknoir also baits in Tyranitar, Scizor, and other common pursuit users, none of which can 1HKO Dusknoir, while Dusknoir can burn them either on the switch-in or after a weak pursuit. After revealing will-o-wisp or fire punch, Dusknoir also lures Heatran, who is quickly beaten with earthquake.
The dark and ghost attacks commonly aimed at Dusknoir are also perfect opportunities for Forretress to come in and set up.
This could potentially be switched with Rotom-A, and Gliscor could be given more speed and moved to the lead position. However, I'm wary of losing Gliscor early game to a bad predict against Swampert leads, which Gliscor loses to rather badly. Dusknoir doesn't do particularly well against most leads, but he is consistent and fails against none.
Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dynamicpunch
- Stone Edge
---
Machamp provides another bulky pokemon and a status absorber, as well as useful resistances to dark and rock. Stone Edge was opted for over Payback to help check Salamence and to a lesser extent Gyarados, although Rotom-A is troubling as well, so I am considering Payback. This is also perhaps the least essential pokemon on the team: although it does provide checks to some physical threats as well as a couple of key resistances (including the team's sole rock resistance), it could perhaps be switched out with something. Still, Machamp has helpful typing, recovery, decent bulk, and Dynamicpunch, making him a decent option for this team spot.
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/6 Atk/252 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Payback
---
Forretress is one of the big stars of this team, offering Spikes support, which really every stall team needs, Rapid Spin, which is quite nice against opposing stall, and a way to stop Outraging Salamence. Gyro Ball was chosen so that Forretress has a solid option to damage Salamence with, while Payback is of some use for hitting Rotom-A on the switch in. Spikes was chosen over Toxic Spikes as a substantial portion of my team appreciates being able to burn things. Payback could potentially be switched out if a strong pursuiter were added somewhere, either for Toxic Spikes, which would potentially be of help, or for Pain Split, which, although difficult to use, could extend Forretress's life span somewhat. Fire attacks aimed at Forretress can be directed towards Vaporeon, while weaker special attacks can be sent to Gardevoir.
Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/228 Def/28 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Surf
---
Vaporeon is quite bulky and provides the team with a Gyarados counter as well as sturdy wish support. The EVs are simply chosen to maximize defenses. Electric attacks aimed at Vaporeon can be walled by Gliscor without trouble, while Forretress welcomes grass-typed attacks as an opportunity to set up Spikes.
Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Taunt
---
Gliscor is my main physical wall, taking most physical attacks, as well as ground, electric, fighting, and bug attacks. Earthquake is for STAB, Roost is basic recovery. Gliscor is also vital as my Stealth Rocker. Taunt helps with opposing stall, although given the relatively low speed, it is of somewhat limited use. Taunt could be switched for Stone Edge, providing better coverage, or a particular move like Ice Fang to help deal with specific threats. Gliscor could also be run with a faster set to help beat Ice Punch Lucario and to taunt things, although it would lose a significant amount of bulk by doing so. Vaporeon gladly takes ice or water attacks directed at Gliscor and uses the opportunity to pass wishes to the rest of the team.
Gardevoir (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/6 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Encore
- Wish
- Will-o-wisp
- Heal Bell
---
Gardevoir, although a very unusual choice for an OU team, does offer a lot to the team. It lures pokemon like Tyranitar and Scizor in to be burned, Encores slow set up pokemon, substitutes, sleep talkers, and all sorts of other things that stall has trouble with, walls weaker special attacks, passes wishes around, cures status, walls Heatran, Jolteon, helps intimidate down Salamence in emergencies, and even traps, encores, burns, and stalls Magnezones that kill Forretress. The speed is there to land quicker burns and encores, most notably beating non-scarf Heatran, letting me lock it into a fire move. In addition, encore causes lots of switches (racking up residual damage) and is the closest this team currently has to p-hazing. The ghost, bug, and dark attacks aimed at Gardevoir are also all setup bait for Forretress, letting it get more spikes down.
~*~*~
~*~*~
This team does have some trouble with certain pokemon:
A very well played Salamence can potentially eliminate a lot of the team. Burns from Dusknoir or Gardevoir help keep it in check, as does Stone Edge on Machamp and Gyro Ball on Forretress. Still, Salamence tends to not be all that hard to predict around, and Stealth Rock keeps it from doing too much.
Although the more common Crocune is utterly shut down by both Gardevoir and Vaporeon, offensive Suicune is quite threatening (CM + 3 Attack variants, with enough speed to outrun Gardevoir's encore).
Likewise, quick set up sweepers that I'm less prepared for could be troublesome, and a quick substitute user like Gengar can be brutal to deal with.
Rotom-A is difficult, as it has great coverage and blocks spins. Shadow Sneak from Dusknoir can take out weakened variants, however, and Payback from Forretress can chip it down. Stone Edge on Machamp could be swapped to Payback to help deal with this.
This team also lacks a good trick absorber. My options are to just condemn something to take the scarf, run something awful like a Muk, give a wall Mail (which can't be tricked, although it would be the loss of leftovers, which everyone really appreciates), give a wall Trick to get rid of a scarf given to it, or add a scarfer of my own. Of these, either just sucking up the scarf or adding a scarfer seem to be the most viable.
Obviously, this team has some major weaknesses; it's really my first major effort in making a stall team. Still, I've had some decent success with it. I need help identifying more threats that this can't handle well and finding options to deal with them, as well as more minor things, like moveset and spread tweaks.
Machamp feels like the most expendable, really, and Dusknoir could be replaced by a Rotom set if it'll be helpful. Really, there's a lot of polishing to be done, but playtesting and theorymoning indicates that this is at least a solid start. Adding a phazer would be helpful, as well as a strong pursuiter. Tyranitar can do both, although he's a somewhat poor roarer. Sandstorm support would help Gliscor out a bit, though, and complement the generally stallish feel. Tyranitar would take dark and ghost attacks well, and add a flying resist, which I currently don't have (again, Rotom might be helpful, but I'm not sure), and the bug weakness is of little importance. A Suicune set could go over Vaporeon, trading wish support for phazing duty; although Gardevoir does already provide wish support, it isn't terribly bulky, and Vaporeon is quite helpful. Vaporeon could also run ice beam over surf, making it into a Salamence check at the expense of STAB.
Thanks in advance for any and all help with this team.