A Gyarados Moveset

Fantasty

Okay, first of all, I'm not entirely sure if this is the right place to submit a new idea for a moveset, so if it isn't please tell me so and then this topic may be deleted. I also have no idea wether this moveset has been suggested before or not, so if that's the case, the same story applies.
Now if neither of the above mentioned things applies, I would really like some constructive critisism on this.

Well, the reason I came up with this moveset was because I noticed that a lot of people were putting Fire Blast on their Garchomp sets, mainly to counter Skarmory so that you don't get phazed away and thus lose all the Swords Dance boosts you have received. Now with Gyarados' popular Dragon Dance set running around, I asked myself: Why don't people do the same thing to Gyarados?

It figured it probably had something to do with the fact that Gyarados already wants more than 4 moveslots, seeing as how Tauntrados usually runs Dragon Dance, Taunt and two offensive moves, and only two offensive moves is sometimes too less for it. I didn't know for sure if this was the reason, but I just ignored it for a second and tried to think of a way to include Fire Blast on the moveset.

Initially, the only thing I was focused on was to 2HKO Skarmory with it, which would mean a SpAtk stat of 185.

Gyarados with 185 SpAtk's Fire Blast vs max HP/min SpDef (334/176) Skarmory: 55 - 64% damage (= a guaranteed 2HKO, even with Leftovers recovery)

Then, I discovered that by using Life Orb as my hold item, I could permit myself to spend a smaller amount of EVs in SpAtk, so that I could focus the majority of them on Atk, but realizing this, the thought of putting more EVs in SpAtk instead of less crossed my mind as well.
So I grabbed the damage calculator once again and did some more calculations. Finally, these calculations brought me to the following EV spread:

Hasty - 140 Atk, 160 SpAtk, 208 Speed

This results into 196 SpAtk, which translates into 254 SpAtk after applying the Life Orb boost. I'll now display the calculations I made below, by which I was brought to this spread. The stats of the Gyarados are the ones that he has when I use the EV spread and nature I displayed above. This means 321 Atk (= 417 Atk after Life Orb) and 254 SpAtk (after Life Orb).

Gyarados' Fire Blast vs 4 HP/min SpDef neutral Metagross (302/216): 67 - 79% damage
Gyarados' Fire Blast vs max HP/min SpDef neutral Metagross (364/216): 56 - 66% damage (guaranteed 2HKO, even with Leftovers)
Gyarados' Fire Blast vs 4 HP/min SpDef neutral Heracross (302/226): 64 - 76% damage
Gyarados' Fire Blast vs max HP/112 SpDef Calm Jirachi (404/290): 37 - 44% damage (gyaranteed 3HKO, even with Leftovers)

I wanted to be able to guaranteedly 2HKO max HP/min SpDef Metagross, and 3HKO the above mentioned Jirachi. That led me to this EV spread. Surprisingly, this Gyarados was also still able to OHKO a max HP/min Def Tyranitar after a Dragon Dance.

Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/min Def neutral Tyranitar (404/256): 105 - 123% damage

Theoratically, a Tyranitar would need 56 Def EVs and 252 HP EVs to survive a Waterfall from this Gyarados after a Dragon Dance at minimum damage. In order to survive one guaranteedly, it would need 252 HP EVs and 248 Def EVs. Now you almost never see that, so I consider this to be a guaranteed OHKO on every T-Tar out there.

Now, as for the actual moveset (I'm sorry for all my talk before), here it is:

Gyarados (F) @ Life Orb
Hasty - 140 Atk, 160 SpAtk, 208 Speed
Intimidate
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast

The 208 Speed EVs make good use out of the magical number (204 Speed EVs = 273 Speed, while 208 Speed EVs = 275 Speed), and it also outspeeds most Agiligross (they usually have 205 Speed at max) after it has Dragon Danced once, and thus it also outspeeds Choice Scarf Adamant Heracross.

The EVs in Atk and SpAtk have already been explained, and I don't know what else I would have to explain. I'm not sure if Stone Edge would be the best choice, as Earthquake seems very tempting as well, so I'd like some opinions there.

Any other aspects of this moveset that you think is flawed can be improved as well, so if you notice any flaws, I would greatly appreciate it if you would mention them. Please submit constructive critisism only, thanks.
 
I love the idea of these sort of movesets. Completely against the 'current standard', and had lots of thought put into them.

How much does Gyara do against some of the other threats, such as Garchomp/Rhyperior/Azelf etc?
 
Okay, here are some further calculations. I don't really know what the standard is for Garchomp and Rhyperior on the defensive side (how many HP Evs most of them have), so I just took several spreads and worked them out.

Gyarados' Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Garchomp (358/226): 45 - 52% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Garchomp (358/226): 67 - 78% damage

Gyarados' Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Rhyperior (372/296): 88 - 103% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Rhyperior (372/296): 131 - 154% damage

Gyarados' Waterfall vs max HP/min Def neutral Rhyperior (434/296): 75 - 88% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/min Def neutral Rhyperior (434/296): 112 - 132% damage

Gyarados' Waterfall vs 4 HP/max Def neutral Rhyperior (372/359): 73 - 85% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs 4 HP/max Def neutral Rhyperior (372/359): 108 - 127% damage

Gyarados' Waterfall vs max HP/max Def neutral Rhyperior (434/359): 62 - 73% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/max Def neutral Rhyperior (434/359): 93 - 109% damage

Gyarados' Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Azelf (292/176): 70 - 83% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def Azelf (292/176): 105 - 123% damage

Maybe it's Atk should be boosted a little bit more to make sure it 2HKO's 4 HP/min Def Garchomp without having the Dragon Dance boost...

Any more calculations I should run?

Perhaps I could run some calculations with Earthquake and Stone Edge vs common electrics like Raikou.
I'll also check how much Stone Edge and Waterfall do to a Zapdos.
 
Was solid Rock included on Rhyperior there? Also I think the best calculations to do are things that Ice Fang would normally kill, can Gyarados still pose a threat to them?
 
Solid Rock was included in my calculations.
I divided the outcome of the damage calculator by 4 and multiplied by 2.66 afterwards.
Also, the only things I can think of that it would normally kill with Ice Fang are the popular dragons (Salamence, Dragonite, Garchomp and Flygon) and perhaps Torterra, but he's toasted by Fire Blast (I'll do some calculations still). Anything I am forgetting?
 
Some more calculations here:

Gyarados' Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Rhyperior (434/394): 57 - 67% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Rhyperior (434/394): 84 - 99,75% damage (crap >_>)

Gyarados' Stone Edge vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Zapdos (322/176): 90 - 106% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Stone Edge vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Zapdos (322/176): 135 - 159% damage

Gyarados' Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Zapdos (322/176): 54 - 64% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Zapdos (322/176): 81 - 95% damage (crap >_>)

Gyarados' Fire Blast vs max HP/min SpDef neutral Torterra (394/206): 54 - 64% damage (2HKO, even with Leftovers)

Gyarados' Waterfall vs max HP/min Def neutral Raikou (384/186): 50 - 59% damage (2HKO, except when Leftovers)
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/min Def neutral Raikou (384/186): 73 - 89% damage

And pure theoratically, if I may decide to swap Stone Edge with Earthquake (probably not):
Gyarados' Earthquake vs max HP/min Def neutral Raikou (384/186): 84 - 99,2% damage (crap >_>)
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Earthquake vs max HP/min Def neutral Raikou (384/186): 126 - 148% damage

Well, I'm a bit tired now of doing calculations.
However, a new thought has popped up in my mind because of them. I noticed that Waterfall won't 2HKO a Leftovers-holding Raikou with max HP and no Def, and it also won't guaranteedly 2HKO a Garchomp, so perhaps Aqua Tail could be an option...
It's pretty dangerous though and I prefer Waterfall still, but it does seem like an option.

Anyone have something to say about the set itself, that doesn't involve doing calculations?

EDIT: I forgot to include my calculations regarding Salamence:

Gyarados' Intimidated Stone Edge vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Salamence (332/196): 62 - 72% damage
Gyarados' neutral Stone Edge vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Salamence (332/196): 92 - 108% damage (OHKO on average)
Gyarados' +1 Attack boosted Stone Edge vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Salamence (332/196): 138 - 162% damage :P
 
The set looks really nice. The only problem is that Life Orb on Flying types doesn't work very well. Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, and Life Orb will kill your Gyarados before it has a chance to sweep.

Also, you left out some of the best Gyarados counter: Starmie, Swampert and Slowbro. Starmie has TBolt and Recover and you can only use a neutral Stone Edge on it. Slowbro is similar, except it uses HP Electric over TBolt. Swampert runs Stone Edge but has no recovery outside of Rest. I would appreciate it greatly if you ran these calcs.
 
I'll have to go for dinner now, but when I'll come back I'll do those calculations.
A minor question though: What are the most common EV spreads for Slowbro and Swampert that I should take into account? Most Swamperts are based more on taking physical hits better than special ones, correct?
And I'm sure the same goes for Slowbro, but I'd like an exact number of EV's. If someone would give those to me, I would greatly appreciate it.

I assume Starmie uses Timid nature with 252 SpAtk, 252 Speed and 4 HP most of the time, so I'll use that spread for the calcs.
 
Well, I did some research myself and found, according to other sources, two Slowbro spreads that were quite common in Advance (I only started playing competitively this gen, so I'm a bit empty when it comes to knowledge about previous gens). I'll work those out first.

Gyarados' Stone Edge vs 212 HP/max Def Bold Slowbro (384/350): 22 - 26% damage (oops)
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Stone Edge vs 212 HP/max Def Bold Slowbro (384/350): 33 - 39% damage (not even a 3HKO when it's holding Leftovers)
Gyarados' twice Dragon Danced Stone Edge vs 212 HP/max Def Bold Slowbro (384/350): 44 - 52% damage (guaranteeded 3HKO, never a 2HKO with Leftovers recovery)
Gyarados' three times Dragon Danced Stone Edge vs 212 HP/max Def Bold Slowbro (384/350): 55 - 65% damage (guaranteeded 2HKO, even with Leftovers recovery)

Okay, such a Slowbro set will cause some major trouble, as it's highly unlikely you can get 3 Dragon Dances before dying. Now here's a slightly less defensive orientated Slowbro:

Gyarados' Stone Edge vs 212 HP/68 Def Bold Slowbro (384/300): 26 - 31% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Stone Edge vs 212 HP/68 Def Bold Slowbro (384/300): 39 - 46% damage (guaranteed 3HKO, even with Leftovers)
Gyarados' twice Dragon Danced Stone Edge vs 212 HP/68 Def Bold Slowbro (384/300): 52 - 61% damage (pretty much a guaranteed 2HKO with Leftovers, still a small change for a 3HKO)

Okay, I can see this thing being a pain in the ass to take down. I've also checked some of the common EV spreads for Swampert, and on serebii I could only find a simple 252HP/252Def/4Atk spread, so I'll use that one for my calculations here.

Gyarados' Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Swampert (404/306): 29 - 34% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Swampert (404/306): 44 - 51% damage
Gyarados' twice Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Swampert (404/306): 58 - 68% damage (guaranteed 2HKO)

Another problem to take down... I also put in the values of Aqua Tail, just to see how that would affecft the damage outcome:

Gyarados' Aqua Tail vs max HP/max Def Impish Swampert (404/306): 33 - 39% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Aqua Tail vs max HP/max Def Impish Swampert (404/306): 49 - 58% damage
Gyarados' twice Dragon Danced Aqua Tail vs max HP/max Def Impish Swapert (404/306): 65 - 77% damage

Meh, doesn't make that much of a difference it appears.

Now for Starmie, I used a sweeping spread, meaning Timid with no Def and only 4 HP EVs. If there are any other purely defensive sets I should consider, please point that out so I can do calculations with such a set as well. Again, I've only just started trying to come up with competitive movesets, so excuse me if I make some stupid mistakes (I already forgot about Gyara's most common counters >_>)

Gyarados' Stone Edge vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Starmie (262/206): 55 - 65% damage (2HKO)
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Stone Edge vs 4 HP/min Def neutral Starmie (262/206): 83 - 98% damage

This thing might even be a bigger pain in the ass than the other two. You'll need to have 1 DD in order to outspeed it, and if you don't damage it on the turn it comes in, you're screwed. Starmie's Thunderbolt is a guaranteed OHKO on Gyarados.

This Gyarados still has it's usual counters there... Any more advice?
 
Okay, just a few calculations before I am really going to stop with calculating all this stuff.

Gyarados' Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Weezing (334/372): 29 - 34% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Weezing (334/372): 44 - 51% damage
Gyarados' Fire Blast vs max HP/min SpDef neutral Weezing (334/176): 37 - 44% damage (guaranteeded 3HKO)

I decided I'd put Weezing on there as well, seeing as how it's a decent counter as well. By pure coincidence, Fire Blast seems to 3HKO Weezing, even if it holds Leftovers (if it did 1 HP of damage less, there was a very slight chance of the Weezing surviving three consecutive Fire Blasts).

I also decided to calculate how much damage Slowbro's HP Electric and Swampert's Stone Edge would do.

Slowbro with 290 SpAtk HP [Electric] vs min HP/min SpDef neutral Gyarados (331/236): 76 - 89% damage (this is the Slowbro with 68 Def EVs from my previous example)

Swampert with 0 Atk EVs and neutral nature (230) Stone Edge vs min Hp/min Def Hasty Gyarados (331/174): 58 - 68% damage

Well, I have no clue as to what other calculations I can possible do, so I'd really like to get some suggestions for improvements that could be made to this Gyarados.
 
Okay, just a few calculations before I am really going to stop with calculating all this stuff.

Gyarados' Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Weezing (334/372): 29 - 34% damage
Gyarados' Dragon Danced Waterfall vs max HP/max Def Impish Weezing (334/372): 44 - 51% damage
Gyarados' Fire Blast vs max HP/min SpDef neutral Weezing (334/176): 37 - 44% damage (guaranteeded 3HKO)

I decided I'd put Weezing on there as well, seeing as how it's a decent counter as well. By pure coincidence, Fire Blast seems to 3HKO Weezing, even if it holds Leftovers (if it did 1 HP of damage less, there was a very slight chance of the Weezing surviving three consecutive Fire Blasts).

I also decided to calculate how much damage Slowbro's HP Electric and Swampert's Stone Edge would do.

Slowbro with 290 SpAtk HP [Electric] vs min HP/min SpDef neutral Gyarados (331/236): 76 - 89% damage (this is the Slowbro with 68 Def EVs from my previous example)

Swampert with 0 Atk EVs and neutral nature (230) Stone Edge vs min Hp/min Def Hasty Gyarados (331/174): 58 - 68% damage

Well, I have no clue as to what other calculations I can possible do, so I'd really like to get some suggestions for improvements that could be made to this Gyarados.
 
Luckily the chances of Slowbro having HP electric is quite low, and it can't touch you otherwise, just outstall you.

I was going to say add more Attack to ensure a OHKO on Zapdos, but to be honest it is faster than you anyway. If you DD on the switch you will OHKO anyway, and it does get OHKO'd with Stealth Rock support.
 
True.
Is there anything that can be done IYO to improve this thing?
I mean, I considered Earthquake over Stone Edge for a minute, but then I realized that Earthquake is probably only good for taking down Raikou, and you would get easily walled by things like Salamence and Dragonite.

Raikou does form a major problem to this now, as do Starmie and probably Swampert as well. But I have absolutely no idea as to how I could change that.
 
Actually, most Starmies run 304 HP/ 260 SAtk/ 347 SPD, stats of course. That makes it even harder to kill. And most Slowbros will run HP Electric, because otherwise they are set-up bait for Gyarados because it can Taunt away Thunder Wave and Slack Off.
 
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Intimidate

Ice Fang
Waterfall
Earthquake
Dragon Dance

This hits Dragon & flying/ground types, electrics, grounds, fires, rocks. This is walled by Bulky waters but can still do some damage to them.

What do u guys thing about this set?
 
Avalanche said:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Intimidate

Ice Fang
Waterfall
Earthquake
Dragon Dance

This hits Dragon & flying/ground types, electrics, grounds, fires, rocks. This is walled by Bulky waters but can still do some damage to them.

What do u guys thing about this set?
Click to expand...

It's called the stnadard set that has existed for months now.
 
Hyra said:
Actually, most Starmies run 304 HP/ 260 SAtk/ 347 SPD, stats of course. That makes it even harder to kill. And most Slowbros will run HP Electric, because otherwise they are set-up bait for Gyarados because it can Taunt away Thunder Wave and Slack Off.
Click to expand...

Please don't tell me I did all these calculations for nothing...
But I guess there's not really much that can be done to help with this problem then.

I'm sorry I forgot about the standard spread for Starmie... I thought they'd usually run max SpAtk, max Speed.

Ah well, thanks for all your help so far guys ;)
Would you give this any chance of working in serious competitive play?
 
I actually would consider this, except for the fact that it relies on Life Orb. I prefer Gyarados to bulky, which life Orb kills. I feel this set will be similar to DDPumpDos in ADV, with Pumps being an option over Fire Blast. Just a note, use Naive over Hasty so you don't ruin Intimidate's boost.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions ;)
The reason I decided to go with Hasty was to take weaker T-bolts easier, but I guess most of them will still kill you.

It feels good to know that I actually came up with a usable moveset. :P
 
I'm thinking about Thunder as it helps handling Skarmory and waters. It may leave you vurnable to Torterra, but it's usually scared shitless of Ice Fang.
 
I don't like Thunder much on this, as you already need to spend at least 1 turn to Dragon Dance (otherwise you won't be able to OHKO things like Zapdos), and if you add in the Life Orb damage you do to yourself with other attacks, and the oh so common Stealth Rock, you can't really afford to miss, and 70% accuracy is just a little bit too low on this.
Fire Blast can miss sometimes as well, but 85% is still quite reliable.

Also, I just did some thinking, and the only pokemon that can resist all of the attacks on this Gyarados is Poliwrath. For the rest, I think this hits everything with at least neutral damage.
 
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