ORAS Doubles OU A Very Unorthodox Rain Team

Hello there! It has been a long time since I made an RMT and I think I finally have something cool to show off again. Now I love coming up with new, creative ways to beat my opponent. In this case, I tried making a Rain centered team which could Spam Surf with impunity. And yes, it sounds like a cheap, easy strategy until you check out the Pokemon that learn the abilities you will covet, starting by our obligatory Rain setter:

Politoed@Damp Rock
Bold
252HP/240Def/16Def
Surf
Rain Dance
Protect
Icy Wind
politoed.jpg


This is my own personal favorite way of using Politoed. I confess, my EV spread making is shoddy and I could use some advise, this just looked good and it has worked nicely. Surf is the STAB of choice on basically everything on the team, and Icy Wind pairs nicely while slowing my opponents. Protect is mainly there because of him being one of the few Pokemon on the team not immune to Surf. Rain Dance is almost necessary. Winning an early weather advantage, or outright winning a weather war with a well timed dance move is great. And since I am sporting a Damp Rock I get further use from that as well. But it makes Politoed into a much more reliable weather setter in my opinion.

Now, there are a handful of abilities that will grant you immunity to Surf. Water Absorb is the most widespread and straight-forward, Dry Skin has a similar effect with some added quirks and drawbacks, Storm Drain will grant you a boost to SpAtk and finally Telepathy will outright make it so your partner cannot hurt you. Storm Drain is of course the one I first jumped, eager to find myself a juicy sweeper.
Staring at my face was a choice between Gastrodon, Lumineon, Cradily and Maractus. Lumineon and Maractus are actually not very good because of their shallow offensive move pools. But Gastrodon and Cradily actually benefit greatly from the boost, and they both get Recover! They are bulky enough to get a hit then bear their fangs after a boost. Lastly, they are not obvious sweepers so people will usually fail to recognize the threat until it is too late. My sets of choice for my tanks is:
Gastrodon@Leftovers
Modest
148HP/112Def/248SpAtk
Surf
Earth Power
Recover
Ice Beam

423gastrodon-w1600x1200.jpg

Cradily@Leftovers
Modest
252HP/56Def/200SpAtk
Giga Drain
Recover
Ancient Power
Sludge Bomb
346cradily1600x1200.jpg


The thinking behind Gastrodon is to hit as hard as I can, get good coverage, and Recover when I have a chance(e.g., I know my partners Surf will K.O. both baddies). Moves are pretty standard. Again, if you about EV builds I am willing to take suggestions if you explain your reasoning. My numbers look pretty.
Cradily on the other hand is more straightforwardly a tank, staving off damage with boosted Giga Drains. I use Ancient Power because it hits Fire types pretty hard, invaluable in weather wars.The boost chance is worthless. Sludge Bombs for those pesky fairies and other grass types.

So we have three slots of the team filled up and we have our weather setter and set-up tanks. I looked at Dry Skin and Water Absorb and was appalled at the quantity of both. Water Absorb has a LOT of users, but most have better abilities or have sets that rely on said other abilities, or are outright bad Pokemon no matter how much I love them(Lapras, for example). Dry Skin on the other hand has but a handful of Pokemon, no very popular ones at that: Heliolisk, Toxicroak, Jynx and Parasect. Parasect has Spore...and that's it. The other three are much more interesting. Heliolisk is an obvious choice, having access to both Thunder and Surf, plus Grass Knot for the occasional Water/Ground. So my choice for 4th slot:



Toxicroak@Assault Vest
Adamant
248HP/252Atk/8SpDef
Fake Out
Poison Jab
Drain Punch
Sucker Punch
454toxicroak1600x1200.jpg


Wait, why? Some of you may flinch away at this choice. I say shame on you. There was a day when Toxicroak reigned alongside permarain setters. And for good reason, Dry Skin makes him a bit hard to bring down. And I just love an Assault Vest on a bulky all-out attacker. Thanks to Dry Skin, I still get recovery while the boost really helps him avoid croaking too son. Fake Out is great utility and is used for revenge kills alongside Sucker Punch. Drain Punch and Poison Jab are my stabs of choice, providing healing and a nice poison chance. Last but not least, this guy can semi-reliably take on Ferrothorn and come out alright under the rain, which is something Heliolisk has to rely on Focus Blast Miss and Fire moves(which are hampered by the rain).

I was really unimpressed by the rest of the Pokemon who boasted immunity to Surf. Don't get me wrong, they did well. But they failed to exploit the theme of surfs and rainlike the four so far. So I set my eyes to Pokemon with useful abilities like Swift Swim and Prankster. I also looked at Pokemon who boasted 4X resistance to water, to better take on Surfs. I finally settled for my revenge killers, who also boast acceptable bulk while managing to be faster than most threats. Best part, they both also have the 4X resistance. To round up my team:

Ludicolo@Life Orb
160HP/252SpAtk/96Spd
Modest
Giga Drain
Fake Out
Ice Beam
Surf
ludicolo.jpg


Kingdra@Assault Vest
Modest
160HP/252SpAtk/96Spd
Dragon Pulse
Flash Cannon
Surf
Clear Smog
230kingdra1600x1200.jpg


Ludicolo is a great rain Pokemon. He needs the Life Orb to deal enough damage, but he can do some recovery with Giga Drain. Ludicolo was having trouble against some faster threats, but he really was using the extra bulk. Some things I just outright could not out speed I could revenge kill instead. Kingdra picks up the slack with n higher base speed. This two have great typings, and it serves them well. They each have an utility move, and they help diffuse threats to my own sweepers.

The team works quite straightforwardly. Try to establish a weather advantage, spam surf to grab boosts and heals. You can use a swift swimmer and a booster to soften them, grab a boost then wipe something with the slower one. Toxicroak is better left for surprise attacks and to pick off weakened foes. You can use your tanks to batter up your opponent and send them in disarray then revenge kill them into infinity. Politoed is the weakest link sadly, but he can literally turn the tides in your favor. Weather teams are very popular, and this Pokemon have less than stellar offenses so they really appreciate the boost in power. Anyhow that is my team, let me know what you guys think and suggest anything. I will try to debate each suggestion, but if you can't defend why I should make a change I don't want to hear it. I will be very respectful I promise, but I am also really strict sometimes.
 
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Hello, and welcome to doubles! Don't get discouraged now, but I'm afraid your team is neither unorthodox nor viable. Surfspam is a predictable gimmick that flat loses to some very common threats. Some of these include: kyurem-b, hydreigon, latios, amoonguss, ferrothorn, charizard y, thundurus, keldeo, as well as playstyles like trick room that simply outdamage you.

The fact that you're restricting yourself to water immune or resistant mons removes a large amount of variety in your team without a very significant benefit. Although you may be getting rain boosts and recovery, you're using mons with generally worse base stats. Toxicroak, for example, is slower, frailer and less hard hitting than terrakion or infernape, but you're forced to use toxicroak because of your surf partners.

In summary, a rain team does not need to have only mons that benefit from rain. This either makes you overly reliant on rain or takes away from variety. Even fire types like talonflame work on rain to take out normal rain checks like amoonguss. Unfortunately, rain isn't doing well in the current meta but here's a decent team that's only a little bit old.
Politoed @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 84 SpA / 52 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Encore
- Protect

Ludicolo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 116 HP / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 236 HP / 192 SpA / 80 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute
- King's Shield

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Protect

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Brave Bird
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 100 HP / 236 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect
Anyways, if you'd like more help with building or battling just read some of the dou resources or ask around in the doubles room on ps!
 
I believe you underestimate the power of good synergy. I posted a team that I have already tested out and want help making better, I recognize it has issues but it is most definitely viable I assure you. I want help with EV spreads or with Pokemons I may have not considered because there is a LOT of Pokemon. Lastly, I said myself I recognize Surfspam seems like a noob strategy that would get discouraged easily because the Pokemon required for it are indeed not stellar. But with so many Pokemon combinations and awesome abilities, and in a world where Pachirisu can win the VGC finals, I say try to be more open minded ok? As for the threats you listed, here is how I do:
Kyurem-B/Hydreigon/Latios: usually not strong enough to ohko my tanks or fast enough to outspeed my revengers, 2 are weak to ice which I have in more than one Pokemon. I have a few checks in place.
Amoonguss: He is weak to ICE, and two of my Pokemon are immune to spore. My Gastrodon fears him the most.
Ferrothorn: was listed in my explanation for Toxicroak which makes me feel you gave up on my team without reading. If you did, you should go ahead and reread.
Charizard-Y: seriously? you think I did not consider every possible opposing weather setter? of course he is a threat, and one I am well aware of and prepared for thank you. Cradily can usually kill a cocky Charizard with a well timed Ancient Power anyhow, and is seldom killed by anything Charizard carries.
Thundurus: I dont know that he is a threat to my team unless he carries Grass Knot, which for some reason doesn't seem popular. Only Politoed is actually weak to Electric
Keldeo: he can be a pain sometimes but he usually gets ohkod by a Gastro with a boost or two or Ludicolo. If he isnt fully offensive sometimes Cradily can deliver a hefty blow with Giga Drain.
Trick Room: It does not outdamage me, you grossly underestimate the storm drainers. And some of my Pokemon actually out-slow my foes so it works against them as well.


As for your argument of how I am restricting myself, I would say you misunderstand. If such a Pokemon would be beneficial to my team I would give it a fair chance and consideration. But I do have a theme in mind, it's not just about winning. This in an exercise on how good synergy can make up for lesser stats. And, I will point out that this is not singles. Individual stats are not as important and synergy is emphasized.
 
Oh and a bit more on Toxicroak, how may Pokemon can boast being able to wear an Assault vest with more impunity? He has 3 forms of semi-reliable ways to gain health with Drain Punch, rain-fall and receiving water damage. And he has 4 offensive moves that allow for utility which is awesome as well in a Pokemon locked into offense.
 
VainValentine, we're not underestimating you in any ways, but hear us out. First of all, you're not going to get far in ladder or in competitions if you're planning to spam moves; competitive players aren't stupid and will immediately counter it. And trust me, Yellow Paint is one of the best DOU player (Top 50 in ladder), and you should listen to his advise. For the matter of Pachirisu, we know it was amazing in VGC 2014, but VGC 2014 is a completely different tier from Smogon DOU. For example, Garchomp was a popular choice in VGC 2014, but imagine that it had allowed Landorus-T... that would change the meta game by a lot, right? Bye bye Pachirisu.


Now, I believe you played this team in the lower ladder. Sorry, but the ladder overall is misleading as people who spends a lot of time are usually in the top, not the most skilled. And I'm about to break down your argument, but don't be discouraged! A good argument is the best way to learn, so hear me out:

1. For the matter of Kyurem-B/Hydreigon/Latios, they don't have to be strong enough to OHKO your Mons because you're playing a Doubles Battle. Two Mons will attack one opposing Mon if it is necessary to do so, storm drain or not. Also, one non-STAB Ice Beam is not even enough to take out these bulky Mons, especially Kyurem-B, and by the second turn, you should lose your Mons.

2. In addition, a clever player would never put a Ferrothorn in front of an obvious and potential threat. If your only counter, that is Toxicroak, is gone, how will you take care of Ferrothorn? Ferrothorn is basically unstoppable or very difficult to stop at this point. And the same can be said for Mega Charizard-Y.

3. Finally, it doesn't matter that your Politoed is the only one to be weak to Electric. A typical Good Stuffs team will have a wide variety of move types and will attack accordingly. Speaking of which, you can only spam surf when you have certain Mons in the field, and you will run the risk of damaging your other Mons with the addition of Rain's boosted power, resisted or not. And your Surf or Muddy Water ain't gonna help you if you don't have any counter to Wide Guard, meaning you'd be giving your opponents one or two turns just because you have to try eliminating that one Guard user. (Why don't your Kingdra have Muddy Water?)


To help you out, I've listed several changes whether you choose to use them or not. Nevertheless, I highly encourage you to do so:

1. First of all, remove Cradily, Gastrodon, and Toxicroak; there are better Mons to use. And since you want to use a Mon that can use Rock and Ground type moves for obvious reasons, try out either Mega Swampert or Mega Diancie with their suggested movesets. Just be careful of their respective 4x weaknesses. And Toxicroak can be easily taken out; use another Fighting type if you plan to use one at all.

2. With two slots remaining, you should have at least one Mon that would complement your Mega or ensure your Rain Team's credibility. In this case, I suggest Bisharp, Scrafty, or Aegislash because they will really help you out in places where your team lacks the most. Talonflame is also a great Mon with priority Brave Bird and a decent Overheat.

3. Furthermore, your remaining Mons can have a better moveset. For Politoed use Scald over Surf and Helping Hand over Rain Dance. You really don't need Rain Dance when Politoed is bulky as it is. Anyways, you shouldn't even have it stay long in battle as your other Mons can be bringing greater impact (through Rain). For Ludicolo use Hydro Pump or Scald over Surf. Lastly, Kingdra should have Muddy Water as its water type move while Draco Meteor should be in reserve for emergency STAB move.

Politoed @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Helping Hand
- Scald
- Protect

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 116 HP / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hydro Pump
- Protect
- Fake Out

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Draco Meteor
- Protect
- Ice Beam

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Diamond Storm
- Protect
- Moonblast

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Overheat
- Brave Bird
- Taunt
- Protect

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute
- King's Shield

Well, I hope I helped out as this is my first time giving suggestions. GG
 
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You were indeed more helpful, but still besides the point. Thank you nevertheless. For the record is not like I actually spam surf, it is just the base idea to be able to Surf with impunity. It is not a Rain team. It is a Surf team. And while I appreciate the advise, you guys are just telling me I have a bad team because I am using bad Pokemon. And the whole experiment is to use synergy of abilities and moves to make up for those lower stats. If you cannot understand that then you cannot help me do what I want. What I want is not to win every time, I want to win creatively.
 
The purpose of this forum is to give people advice on their teams and make them as competitive as possible; you should not post solely "creative" or "fun" teams. If you aren't open to taking suggestions to improve your team then you don't need to (and shouldn't) post in this forum.
 
There are many players, including us, that made use of "bad" Mons, and it is rather quite common amongst us. However, we just hate it when our Mons are not viable, so we build around it (synergy as you described it) and ensure that they're in the best condition to battle.

So, let me show you how you can improve the usage of your "bad" Mons. This is a document that I made because my friends always bothered me about the same things that you've been complaining about. As long as you follow its suggestions, you should have better usage of your "bad" Mons. (DPL players, I'm open to improvements on this document.)
http://pastebin.com/3bjFEQKS
Also, there are several "Teambuilding Frameworks" in the Doubles' Competitive Discussions. They will state similar things as I had in that document, and they show how different players build their teams. "Synergy of abilities and moves to make up for those lower stats" as you have described is incredibly noted in there as well.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-teambuilding-frameworks.3571514/

Some players, or as I assume, are incredibly creative, and they can actually make their team work in any setting. And although some competitive players were uneasy with their ideas, they were able to bring supports to their claims.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/wings-of-liberty.3571051/
In the first link, Sparkin provides a Rain Team with a twist... Perish Trap. I guess his idea was to Perish Trap all threats to the actual Rain team, giving him the opportunity to either Spore spam them in a TR setting or Water spam them in a Rain setting. He has variables of options, but his team is not flexible. If he cannot succeed in accomplishing his initial goals, then his matches are over. Nevertheless, he had provided a rather interesting link of defeating "ladder heroes". And he received his congratz by Yellow Paint.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ghoul-kingdom-my-facination-with-fairies.3570112/
The next RMT shows GhoulRuler's Monotype Fairy Team, quite an unusual presence in the Doubles community. The idea behind his team is that his Mons are given the opportunity to setup and continue to pressure the opposing team. The usually "bad" Aromatisse and Mr. Mine are placed in his team for niche purposes, but nevertheless serves him well. Furthermore, he provided replays and a teambuilding process to shows his team's credibility... and he continues to beat the crap out of most teams.

If you still don't believe me, then look at this embarrassing replay of Matame defeating me with his Follow Me Magmar team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-368824370. The point is that you can make good use of "bad" Mons and utilize creative strategies... you just got to make it work!
 
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I will get around to checking all of those things. I understand my Pokemon are not the strongest but what they can do is unique to them and I wanted to explore it. In response to Corrupt, I am taking suggestions seriously and furthermore there are no clauses that say teams have to be the best. I am pretty sure creative ideas are welcomed too. But I still don't feel anyone has taken the time to consider my team as a whole while mostly shooting down the individual parts. I really feel like I may have come off as arrogant just because of my zeal in defending these mons but what I am defending is the concept I am experimenting with. The team is designed to take advantage of Surf, and I discussed how uncommon good Pokemon with water immunity are. A Stab, Rain boosted Surf from Kingdra followed by a STAB rain boosed Surf from a +1 Gastrodon is quite a scary thought and one few teams have a solid answer for, specialy if you can pull it off easily. Please stop concentrating on how bad my Pokemon are. And I assume you are all better players than me, but winning for the sake of winning is not fun. The sum of the parts of my team is greater than the whole and I am more than a little sad to see the reaction it actually caused. It may be my own fault for the title I chose, and I apologize. If you want to help me, do it like Testbot. Give me ideas of how I can better my game or understand the metagame, do not tell me what Pokemon to use. I could make a clone of a winning team any time, this is a concept I am playing with and I'd appreciate help exploring it, not being told how unviable or viable it is by people who have not played with it.
 
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