We're running a survey on ADV DOU - we're mostly looking to gather whether or not the community thinks boom should be suspected/voted on, but there is an additional question to gather responses on some top meta Pokemon. Anyone is welcome to respond.
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Lower Tiers ADV Doubles
- Thread starter zee
- Start date
unfortunately I am once again here in this thread. my doubles derby team didn't draft an adver so I had to support it p heavily and ended up putting more time into the tier since advpl than I thought I would oops. we lost partially thanks to a generationally ass showing by me in tb but I did win my only adv game of the tour and the slot finished 6-2, which would be the best record if it wasn't split between 3 people LOL. felt like making one last post before the boom vote for my final vr, to dump teams, and complain yippee.
not vastly different from my last one because it's been like 2-3 months LOL so won't talk about everything
current feeling is I think the bird and meta are pretty interchangeable top 2, I still think meta is the most warping pkmn in the tier but zap is def the most consistent and equally if not more splashable
last time I felt like I was putting celebi kinda low already and since then I've only grown on it. good coverage, viable screener, cm tect is dangerous despite having to drop a key attack, perish song keeps bullshit in check. held back by explosion and 4mss, but great glue
after continuing to build they aren't as splashable as aero and celebi to me and I think their threat level is more in line with other Tier 3 pkmn
tbh nothing changed for me about suicune between my last post and this one I just had it a bit too high, I think it always has High Potential but is awkward to fit on teams. I still don't like gyarados but unfortunately it's better than Tier 4. both of these guys love marowak and hate explosion
before I was kinda unsure on how I felt about weather but I think both of these guys are solidly Tier 4. quite powerful pkmn, can run away with the game if you aren't careful. kingdra has the better typing both offensively and defensively, isn't total dead weight outside of rain, and can run a spread move. exeggutor doesn't have to care about accuracy but is much worse outside of sun than kingdra is outside of rain, with the upside being it can go boom. the other weather guys are clearly a tier below to me they're all ok on full weather
derby rly reaffirmed how I feel about these. regirock good lead, continued to see success in derby. also think non demon registeel also cool lead after building with it, still have not used the demon set bc I dislike the nature of it but clearly viable. and regice is just not good I struggle to find a real reason to put it on a team
built teams with it that weren't instantly deleted for the first time during derby. higher celebi usage gives another target I guess but the weaknesses are still so bad. clearly usable, I'll just never feel good about it. sometimes it's cool to have a second zapdos
last time I kinda just threw all the fake out users into Tier 5 but after further consideration this is the only one I'd actually want to load, feels the most consistent to me bc it won't instantly die and can do some damage if needed
too weak too frail and slower than aerodactyl, have struggled to find teams I like with them but the niche is still there I suppose
overrated it before because there was 1 team I liked it on, maybe 2. still think it's cool as a special flying intimidator but hard to fit
I was convinced to move this up to Tier 4 last time but since then I still have not had the urge to use it and nobody has loaded it into me or my teammates. I do see the vision still but I would not want to choose this as my wincon ever tbh
fringe tier is full of pkmn who just Aren't Quite There, ranges from inconsistent mu fishes or gimmicks to mons that are mostly outclassed or perform a role that I just dont think is needed. these can all def win and I could probably be sold on any of them, but personally I looked into nearly all the mons here and couldn't find a team with them that I like in the current metagame
for the survey I put 4 enjoyment (3 in tournament but 5 outside) and either 2 or 3 competitiveness idr. free deo-s it'll save the tier
not vastly different from my last one because it's been like 2-3 months LOL so won't talk about everything
current feeling is I think the bird and meta are pretty interchangeable top 2, I still think meta is the most warping pkmn in the tier but zap is def the most consistent and equally if not more splashable last time I felt like I was putting celebi kinda low already and since then I've only grown on it. good coverage, viable screener, cm tect is dangerous despite having to drop a key attack, perish song keeps bullshit in check. held back by explosion and 4mss, but great glue after continuing to build they aren't as splashable as aero and celebi to me and I think their threat level is more in line with other Tier 3 pkmn tbh nothing changed for me about suicune between my last post and this one I just had it a bit too high, I think it always has High Potential but is awkward to fit on teams. I still don't like gyarados but unfortunately it's better than Tier 4. both of these guys love marowak and hate explosion before I was kinda unsure on how I felt about weather but I think both of these guys are solidly Tier 4. quite powerful pkmn, can run away with the game if you aren't careful. kingdra has the better typing both offensively and defensively, isn't total dead weight outside of rain, and can run a spread move. exeggutor doesn't have to care about accuracy but is much worse outside of sun than kingdra is outside of rain, with the upside being it can go boom. the other weather guys are clearly a tier below to me they're all ok on full weather derby rly reaffirmed how I feel about these. regirock good lead, continued to see success in derby. also think non demon registeel also cool lead after building with it, still have not used the demon set bc I dislike the nature of it but clearly viable. and regice is just not good I struggle to find a real reason to put it on a team built teams with it that weren't instantly deleted for the first time during derby. higher celebi usage gives another target I guess but the weaknesses are still so bad. clearly usable, I'll just never feel good about it. sometimes it's cool to have a second zapdos last time I kinda just threw all the fake out users into Tier 5 but after further consideration this is the only one I'd actually want to load, feels the most consistent to me bc it won't instantly die and can do some damage if needed too weak too frail and slower than aerodactyl, have struggled to find teams I like with them but the niche is still there I suppose overrated it before because there was 1 team I liked it on, maybe 2. still think it's cool as a special flying intimidator but hard to fit I was convinced to move this up to Tier 4 last time but since then I still have not had the urge to use it and nobody has loaded it into me or my teammates. I do see the vision still but I would not want to choose this as my wincon ever tbhfringe tier is full of pkmn who just Aren't Quite There, ranges from inconsistent mu fishes or gimmicks to mons that are mostly outclassed or perform a role that I just dont think is needed. these can all def win and I could probably be sold on any of them, but personally I looked into nearly all the mons here and couldn't find a team with them that I like in the current metagame
most of these are mine I think but some are just from SEA and others are teams we worked on together, plus I steal her spreads a lot. v strong mind for the tier and always a pleasure to work with, shoutout to her for being ok with me including anything of hers. assuming boom gets banned these will all require edits or could just be completely unviable
https://pokepast.es/7d3a384cbec98f32
this is one of the 3 tiers on the site where im rly confident in my own builds (other 2 being bw zu and adv ubers xd) so im v happy to have at least gone positive in advpl+derby this year compared to last year, and to have continued my success as a supporter asw. s/o zoe mizu idyll for trusting me
https://pokepast.es/7d3a384cbec98f32
this is one of the 3 tiers on the site where im rly confident in my own builds (other 2 being bw zu and adv ubers xd) so im v happy to have at least gone positive in advpl+derby this year compared to last year, and to have continued my success as a supporter asw. s/o zoe mizu idyll for trusting me
there have been whispers of banning boom for as long as more than 5 people have played this tier and it's not hard to see why. at best boom is able to ohko both of the opponents pkmn in a single turn at the cost of your own, and at worst you kill off your own pkmn for nothing in return. the moves definitely add more variance to the tier and create very swingy games, but these fast paced games were what I found so fun about adv to begin with and to me that's how it carved out an identity for itself. in the past I always felt like wanting boom banned was kind of a skill issue and that it's strength was a bit overstated. counterplay definitely exists with protect and gengar blocking the move being the most obvious examples, though misreading a boom is almost as deadly as getting your own boom read. so really the best way to not get cooked by boom is to keep up your own pressure and try to create scenarios where you simply do not care about boom (very hard, but rewarding). the most prominent boom users (meta/lax/gar) are all important pieces to any team both offensively and defensively, even if you land a boom with them there is a potential drawback so it has to be v high value. additionally boom is one of the best ways to deal with any form of setup from cm celebi to dd gyarados to demon registeel, helping keep those in check. so yeah idt boom is quite as unga bunga as its often made out to be, although it does undeniably create some pure coin flip moments. to me there is definite skill in both playing around and using boom and it gives the tier a unique identity which is why I was always against banning it, but I've come around a bit on the idea. my main gripe with the tier is the high variance, gen 3 critical hits are extremely bullshit and a single crit is likely to completely change the game in such an offensive metagame with very limited support tools where most pkmn are simply there to attack attack attack and trade damage. boom adds to this variance itself by introducing more coinflippy turns and being partially responsible for the tiers fast pace, both because of its strength in game and the threat of it in the builder dissuading players from using less offensive teams. while I'm far from convinced that banning boom will make the tier more fun or remove a significant amount of variance, I can understand the thought process and respect wanting to try one last thing to improve the tier. I'm kinda leaning ban because there's clearly plenty of dissatisfaction with adv rn and the obvious ban to try to change the tier is boom, but idk will have to think about it more
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advance battle!
w2 vs NinjaSnapple
https://pokepast.es/b6bd32e3dfb99f65
https://pokepast.es/958270e288e4c31c
I started off building here since I took an act loss in New Orleans w1 to enjoy my frozen pina colada. It was very good. Unfortunately I got called out of the house for an impromptu outing with my dad so I ended up having to make these teams on mobile in a restaurant. The first team is the very safe type of build that I would rely on several times throughout the duration of the tour, though notably with screens bi instead of CM. No idea why the lax is body slam but I don't really remember that coming up either way. I really like using protect lax, it's a set I've caught several metagrosses and opposing snorlaxes try to boom into me with in orre cup and I figured it'd port over well here. Team 2 kicks off my trend of bringing one more balancey comp and one aggressive build. Yes, the gengar is missing EVs and the Gyarados was 252hp/252 atk/4 speed. Idk either. It was aggressive enough that it won before the holes could be called out.
w3 vs Flying Beagle
https://pokepast.es/41c26d1008392abb
https://pokepast.es/032e095ed9a15d66
This time I wanted to set up with celebi after seeing some CM users in week 1. Gotta be honest though, I'm not the biggest fan of hp fire bi, but more on that later. Team 2 was the new HO idea of the week, using Jolteon + Tauros to put lots of pressure on in the early game and sequencing into a board where Breloom can spore slower mons and Gyarawak can get to work on a turn where the opponent is caught out of position. In the game I remember having to make a ballsy call and leave my Marowak open in front of Solar Beam to get ahead, and I did that to close out the game. Think this game is what really gave me gyarawak addiction
w4 vs Sunrose
https://pokepast.es/d8bc81bad2689396
https://pokepast.es/d7849a2d7588e152
https://pokepast.es/dc0d8ab814fada4b
At this point I had been using celebi balance + gyarawak stuff so I said let's merge em together. I think this works out decently okay, and in the game vs sunrose I was able to use Mie + Wak to some good effect. The sun team should've cooked but I got double crit to lose the game. Sun is really good, I like it more than rain, but again more on that later. Magmar + CB Bi was a super fun concept with the back pieces all having a nice flow to them.
i used reuses vs For 4LOM since we won the week
w6 vs Idyll
https://pokepast.es/61d847722922427e
https://pokepast.es/47b417b61e8b24ed
https://pokepast.es/d73d42713667a1b1
team 1 is just this week's bi balance. omastar rain took a win, still not really the biggest rain fan. registeel sucks but it also sucks to play against so ban registeel (skill issue or whatever). all in all i think i messed up trying to cheese hard with that one. the balance game loss was close iirc but i got a few endgame turns wrong.
I used reuses vs Gma, I think I was just extremely burnt out on building. It worked out this time at least
semis vs Xrn
https://pokepast.es/40bb6a7e46f57604
I only built one new team for semis because I was still in my builder slump. I also don't think this team is really that good and I got swiftly owned by rain as my gyarawak bi balance got owned by HP Elec mie in game 2. Ngl I did not even know they implemented the HP Elec thing on main, that was pretty clever.
finals vs NinjaSnapple
https://pokepast.es/ff6ecea480757493
https://pokepast.es/a59c38df25c8ed0a
https://pokepast.es/00cb5260c7aff140 - bonus team
bi balance of the week. this time it's calm arc to try and take hydro pumps but I bothered with too much speed on the guy trying to catch speedy metagrosses when I should've just ran more HP to turn the 20% chance to die into 6.3% + Acc or something. Thankfully I was able to get some turns right and position bi effectively to avoid losing to the same build twice. team two is a sun redux. I decided to use Gar + Lax kinda like how rain teams do Gar + Meta so that if my opponent lead weekly into Lax I could just boom and go into Exeggutor. Charizard was not missing any Fire Blasts and it + Exeggutor found themselves in a perfect position after a few turns. the bonus is what i made for g3 but I'm kinda glad I didn't have to use it, Ninja was clearly prepared for Gyarawak.
At the end of the season I'm relieved I don't have to play ADV for a while but honestly despite how frustrating this tier can be sometimes I love it all the same. Meeting SEA through this format in goofy roa roomtours is still one of my fondest memories on Smogon and every time I play this tier I can't help but get flashbacks to those good times. ADV feels like a Mario Party minigame version of competitive DOU. It's fun as hell to play but if you spend too long on it you can tell the designers just wanted a mode where anyone can beat anyone way easier than future installments.
shouts SEA Xrn and BIG WILL. and Xzern.
w2 vs NinjaSnapple
https://pokepast.es/b6bd32e3dfb99f65
https://pokepast.es/958270e288e4c31c
I started off building here since I took an act loss in New Orleans w1 to enjoy my frozen pina colada. It was very good. Unfortunately I got called out of the house for an impromptu outing with my dad so I ended up having to make these teams on mobile in a restaurant. The first team is the very safe type of build that I would rely on several times throughout the duration of the tour, though notably with screens bi instead of CM. No idea why the lax is body slam but I don't really remember that coming up either way. I really like using protect lax, it's a set I've caught several metagrosses and opposing snorlaxes try to boom into me with in orre cup and I figured it'd port over well here. Team 2 kicks off my trend of bringing one more balancey comp and one aggressive build. Yes, the gengar is missing EVs and the Gyarados was 252hp/252 atk/4 speed. Idk either. It was aggressive enough that it won before the holes could be called out.
w3 vs Flying Beagle
https://pokepast.es/41c26d1008392abb
https://pokepast.es/032e095ed9a15d66
This time I wanted to set up with celebi after seeing some CM users in week 1. Gotta be honest though, I'm not the biggest fan of hp fire bi, but more on that later. Team 2 was the new HO idea of the week, using Jolteon + Tauros to put lots of pressure on in the early game and sequencing into a board where Breloom can spore slower mons and Gyarawak can get to work on a turn where the opponent is caught out of position. In the game I remember having to make a ballsy call and leave my Marowak open in front of Solar Beam to get ahead, and I did that to close out the game. Think this game is what really gave me gyarawak addiction
w4 vs Sunrose
https://pokepast.es/d8bc81bad2689396
https://pokepast.es/d7849a2d7588e152
https://pokepast.es/dc0d8ab814fada4b
At this point I had been using celebi balance + gyarawak stuff so I said let's merge em together. I think this works out decently okay, and in the game vs sunrose I was able to use Mie + Wak to some good effect. The sun team should've cooked but I got double crit to lose the game. Sun is really good, I like it more than rain, but again more on that later. Magmar + CB Bi was a super fun concept with the back pieces all having a nice flow to them.
i used reuses vs For 4LOM since we won the week
w6 vs Idyll
https://pokepast.es/61d847722922427e
https://pokepast.es/47b417b61e8b24ed
https://pokepast.es/d73d42713667a1b1
team 1 is just this week's bi balance. omastar rain took a win, still not really the biggest rain fan. registeel sucks but it also sucks to play against so ban registeel (skill issue or whatever). all in all i think i messed up trying to cheese hard with that one. the balance game loss was close iirc but i got a few endgame turns wrong.
I used reuses vs Gma, I think I was just extremely burnt out on building. It worked out this time at least
semis vs Xrn
https://pokepast.es/40bb6a7e46f57604
I only built one new team for semis because I was still in my builder slump. I also don't think this team is really that good and I got swiftly owned by rain as my gyarawak bi balance got owned by HP Elec mie in game 2. Ngl I did not even know they implemented the HP Elec thing on main, that was pretty clever.
finals vs NinjaSnapple
https://pokepast.es/ff6ecea480757493
https://pokepast.es/a59c38df25c8ed0a
https://pokepast.es/00cb5260c7aff140 - bonus team
bi balance of the week. this time it's calm arc to try and take hydro pumps but I bothered with too much speed on the guy trying to catch speedy metagrosses when I should've just ran more HP to turn the 20% chance to die into 6.3% + Acc or something. Thankfully I was able to get some turns right and position bi effectively to avoid losing to the same build twice. team two is a sun redux. I decided to use Gar + Lax kinda like how rain teams do Gar + Meta so that if my opponent lead weekly into Lax I could just boom and go into Exeggutor. Charizard was not missing any Fire Blasts and it + Exeggutor found themselves in a perfect position after a few turns. the bonus is what i made for g3 but I'm kinda glad I didn't have to use it, Ninja was clearly prepared for Gyarawak.
At the end of the season I'm relieved I don't have to play ADV for a while but honestly despite how frustrating this tier can be sometimes I love it all the same. Meeting SEA through this format in goofy roa roomtours is still one of my fondest memories on Smogon and every time I play this tier I can't help but get flashbacks to those good times. ADV feels like a Mario Party minigame version of competitive DOU. It's fun as hell to play but if you spend too long on it you can tell the designers just wanted a mode where anyone can beat anyone way easier than future installments.
Tier 1: Zapdos is the best mon in the tier. Thunderbolt/HP Grass/Flex off its power speed and bulk is just unmatched and it will continue to be the best mon in the tier until we actually decide to free Deo-S. Snorlax is not far behind Zapdos. It sits on every special attacker including double ups, can threaten the strongest boom in the tier to easily delete a 90/90 bulk mon at -1, and has very specific counterplay. Celebi patches almost all of the holes lati left behind in its ban. It's an Electric and Water resist, it can click screens, it can set up Calm Mind, or even run weather moves and perish song. I don't like CM HP Fire, I don't think it's really for much more than opposing Celebi and Metagross, and even boosted HP Fires aren't wearing these guys down a lot, I'd rather just build more counterplay into teams and run dual stabs which is way better into the remaining 90% of the metagame.
Tier 2: Yeah I actually don't think I would rank Meta tier 1. Fires are way easier to use now, Zapdos being tier 1 and increased Gyara usage forces it to boom way earlier than it would like in a lot of boards. It's still a Metagross and will contribute something to every game it comes to, but I think the same is true for the other guys I ranked here. Gengar: speed, utility, normal immune, business as usual. I really like bulky gar. Starmie stands out to me as the dominant Water now, I think with Raikou usage decreasing as Zap usage increases and it not having to play a tie anymore it's just a lot more favored, plus Waters are just much more important now with Fires being everywhere. I do genuinely think Arc is Tier 2. Killing Gross, Intimidate, and its arsenal of support moves generally make it the go to Fire type, not to mention the incredible bulk just makes it crazy hard to remove without hitting a Hydro Pump.
Tier 3: I think Pert's fine here, great typing and moves but doesn't actually beat much 1 on 1 due to speed and having to be a mixed attacker. Icy Wind is a good move to click with him. Tauros is a great mon but easy to catch out of position and frail so I don't think it can ever go higher than top of tier 3. Gyarawak has a decently high ceiling but is always respected and can be difficult to execute so same bounds apply here. I think Ttar has it even worse. Aerodactyl has impressed me as a speed ceiling for the tier, just a nice guy to send in and do 50 to whatever's in range. Dogs are cool. I think sun and rain are tier 3 archetypes so their best representatives here. I'm giving the edge to sun since it can function as BoomSpam and doesn't have to hit Hydro Pump.
Tier 4: Registeel.... basically all the other Fires, Fake Outs, Fightings, Follow Mes, and the Fysically defensive Explosion users.
Fringe: I think it's time to UR Scept and Zam. Very limited roles, if you're gonna go fast you might as well be going faster and run Aero.
Tier 2: Yeah I actually don't think I would rank Meta tier 1. Fires are way easier to use now, Zapdos being tier 1 and increased Gyara usage forces it to boom way earlier than it would like in a lot of boards. It's still a Metagross and will contribute something to every game it comes to, but I think the same is true for the other guys I ranked here. Gengar: speed, utility, normal immune, business as usual. I really like bulky gar. Starmie stands out to me as the dominant Water now, I think with Raikou usage decreasing as Zap usage increases and it not having to play a tie anymore it's just a lot more favored, plus Waters are just much more important now with Fires being everywhere. I do genuinely think Arc is Tier 2. Killing Gross, Intimidate, and its arsenal of support moves generally make it the go to Fire type, not to mention the incredible bulk just makes it crazy hard to remove without hitting a Hydro Pump.
Tier 3: I think Pert's fine here, great typing and moves but doesn't actually beat much 1 on 1 due to speed and having to be a mixed attacker. Icy Wind is a good move to click with him. Tauros is a great mon but easy to catch out of position and frail so I don't think it can ever go higher than top of tier 3. Gyarawak has a decently high ceiling but is always respected and can be difficult to execute so same bounds apply here. I think Ttar has it even worse. Aerodactyl has impressed me as a speed ceiling for the tier, just a nice guy to send in and do 50 to whatever's in range. Dogs are cool. I think sun and rain are tier 3 archetypes so their best representatives here. I'm giving the edge to sun since it can function as BoomSpam and doesn't have to hit Hydro Pump.
Tier 4: Registeel.... basically all the other Fires, Fake Outs, Fightings, Follow Mes, and the Fysically defensive Explosion users.
Fringe: I think it's time to UR Scept and Zam. Very limited roles, if you're gonna go fast you might as well be going faster and run Aero.
Just in case it wasn't clear by my writing so far, I am really, really glad we banned Latias. A mon that forces the meta into Speed ties where it's best check is itself is just not fun, especially when you know it's going to have 100% usage. I much prefer the current meta to the one where 4 out of every 5 teams started with Latias Metagross Gengar as soon as you opened the builder. Celebi really does fill the majority of Latias's defensive benefits while being a far less toxic mon in the metagame, and I think it's a good thing that you actually want to run Fires now.
Been thinking about whether or not to ban boom since my game wrapped up today and I looked to post the tier survey. I do think I'm going to vote ban. While it's true that ADV's identity is almost centered around Boom, I think there's a clear correlation between this reputation and the community's attitude towards it. I think there are a lot of things that can still define ADV in the wake of a boom ban: the spread mechanic still applies to many more moves, the power level -boom is honestly quite balanced, and it's just interesting to play a pre-phys/spec split tier to me.
I mentioned Registeel in doucord but also I don't think I'd seriously want to ban it or anything, it's just the Cosmic Power Mew of this generation. Ngl I do think Deoxys-S would probably be /fine/ in the tier, remember we banned that guy in '22 before the '23 money tour happened and everyone suddenly optimized the tier. I think we should probably do some testing with it though. We definitely didn't test enough with Latias and look where that got us.
Been thinking about whether or not to ban boom since my game wrapped up today and I looked to post the tier survey. I do think I'm going to vote ban. While it's true that ADV's identity is almost centered around Boom, I think there's a clear correlation between this reputation and the community's attitude towards it. I think there are a lot of things that can still define ADV in the wake of a boom ban: the spread mechanic still applies to many more moves, the power level -boom is honestly quite balanced, and it's just interesting to play a pre-phys/spec split tier to me.
I mentioned Registeel in doucord but also I don't think I'd seriously want to ban it or anything, it's just the Cosmic Power Mew of this generation. Ngl I do think Deoxys-S would probably be /fine/ in the tier, remember we banned that guy in '22 before the '23 money tour happened and everyone suddenly optimized the tier. I think we should probably do some testing with it though. We definitely didn't test enough with Latias and look where that got us.
shouts SEA Xrn and BIG WILL. and Xzern.
tbf i mainly reused teams i had in my builders of genesis 4lom and mine so im gonna post the only 2 teams i build for this tour and had fun with it :
Jirachi Time
This is a team builded aroung what makes jirachi unique and not a bad a metagross while having mons that can use the tempo disruption is gonna provide. 10/10 fun team and somehow viable.
CounterPert
This one is a most serious team builded with a enemy Zapdos Lead in mind (even tho is good vs most leads tho). Celebi is eved so is slower than timid zapdos and faster than modest zapdos, that way that pert ev spread can survive hp grass with enought live in both cases to :
A) kill with counter and B) still be useful the rest of the game thanks to lefties and tect
The zapdos lure and the LS lead means that marowak can have a ofensive ev spread and pressure a lot and than gyarados is better here than suicune while gar and bulkygross are the glue the team need. 9/10 fun and 9/10 viable.
Jirachi Time
This is a team builded aroung what makes jirachi unique and not a bad a metagross while having mons that can use the tempo disruption is gonna provide. 10/10 fun team and somehow viable.
CounterPert
This one is a most serious team builded with a enemy Zapdos Lead in mind (even tho is good vs most leads tho). Celebi is eved so is slower than timid zapdos and faster than modest zapdos, that way that pert ev spread can survive hp grass with enought live in both cases to :
A) kill with counter and B) still be useful the rest of the game thanks to lefties and tect
The zapdos lure and the LS lead means that marowak can have a ofensive ev spread and pressure a lot and than gyarados is better here than suicune while gar and bulkygross are the glue the team need. 9/10 fun and 9/10 viable.
Everyone that has read me clearly knows what i think about boom being healthy, one of the biggest skill shows of the gen and part of adv identity so im not gonna enter in that at least for now.
That said, what I want to express is that if you find Boom to be broken or uncompetitive, then by all means, vote for a ban. However, please don't vote for a ban just because people who dislike the generation and haven't played a single game are complaining about it. (It just happened to be Boom that ended up being the target, but it could just as easily have been crits, the lack of team preview, or the way switches after KO work... they just don't like the generation).
Let's keep the tier with its unique identity—fun and enjoyable for those who appreciate ADV as a generation—instead of watering it down to appease tourists who don’t really care about it. If I have to choose between having a small community with a tier I truly enjoy and a larger one with a mediocre tier, I have no doubt about what I want
That said, what I want to express is that if you find Boom to be broken or uncompetitive, then by all means, vote for a ban. However, please don't vote for a ban just because people who dislike the generation and haven't played a single game are complaining about it. (It just happened to be Boom that ended up being the target, but it could just as easily have been crits, the lack of team preview, or the way switches after KO work... they just don't like the generation).
Let's keep the tier with its unique identity—fun and enjoyable for those who appreciate ADV as a generation—instead of watering it down to appease tourists who don’t really care about it. If I have to choose between having a small community with a tier I truly enjoy and a larger one with a mediocre tier, I have no doubt about what I want
A private vote was ran on Explosion & Self-Destruct in ADV DOU. The vote was private as I was recommended not to use Blind Voting as ADV DOU votes are not eligible for Tiering Contributor. The criteria to be a voter for this suspect was the following:
4 wins in ADVPL + Doubles Derby combined, or 3 wins in one of the two tournaments: zee, Grandmas Cookin, For 4LOM, Idyll, Lhions, Genesis77, eragon, Xrn, zoe (9)
ADV cup top 8: Amaranth, Staraptor, Mishimono, AIRedzone, MADARAAAA (5)
(For 4LOM, Genesis77, and Lhions qualified via both criteria)
The votes were cast as the following:
Ban (8): Grandmas Cookin, zee, AIRedzone, eragon, Idyll, Mishimono, Staraptor, Genesis77
DNB (4): Lhions, Amaranth, MADARAAAA, zoe
Abstain (1): Xrn
Hasn't Voted Yet (1): For 4LOM
With Xrn's Abstain, 8 of the 13 remaining votes is enough for the 60% ban margin. Therefore, Self-Destruct and Explosion are now banned from ADV Doubles OU. If anyone would like to see proof of these votes, please let me know.
I would like to know people's thoughts on running a retest on this vote at some point. This has potential to be an impactful vote for the trajectory of the tier, and I would consider it healthy to revisit this after some time. In my eyes, we don't have to worry about spamming votes since this tier doesn't count for TC progress. Not exactly sure when, could be after the oldgen invitational, after next ADV Cup, or never if people don't feel like this is necessary. We would look for ways to add to the voter pool if we decide to look into a retest.
Samples will be updated shortly, I'd like to extend my thanks to all the voters that participated.
4 wins in ADVPL + Doubles Derby combined, or 3 wins in one of the two tournaments: zee, Grandmas Cookin, For 4LOM, Idyll, Lhions, Genesis77, eragon, Xrn, zoe (9)
ADV cup top 8: Amaranth, Staraptor, Mishimono, AIRedzone, MADARAAAA (5)
(For 4LOM, Genesis77, and Lhions qualified via both criteria)
The votes were cast as the following:
Ban (8): Grandmas Cookin, zee, AIRedzone, eragon, Idyll, Mishimono, Staraptor, Genesis77
DNB (4): Lhions, Amaranth, MADARAAAA, zoe
Abstain (1): Xrn
Hasn't Voted Yet (1): For 4LOM
With Xrn's Abstain, 8 of the 13 remaining votes is enough for the 60% ban margin. Therefore, Self-Destruct and Explosion are now banned from ADV Doubles OU. If anyone would like to see proof of these votes, please let me know.
I would like to know people's thoughts on running a retest on this vote at some point. This has potential to be an impactful vote for the trajectory of the tier, and I would consider it healthy to revisit this after some time. In my eyes, we don't have to worry about spamming votes since this tier doesn't count for TC progress. Not exactly sure when, could be after the oldgen invitational, after next ADV Cup, or never if people don't feel like this is necessary. We would look for ways to add to the voter pool if we decide to look into a retest.
Samples will be updated shortly, I'd like to extend my thanks to all the voters that participated.
Unfortunately I have been knocked Doubles Vintage so I think now is a good time to share the teams I have created in the post boom meta as well as give my general thoughts on the tier as a whole.
Biggest Winners
Prior to the boom ban, Suicune was an uncommon sight in tournament play due to requiring a couple turns of setup for it do to any real damage which made it a prime target for explosion. But now as that's no longer an option, Suicune has become an absolute menace. When paired with intimidate users as seen here, here and here it can become extremely difficult to remove from the field, and due to the lack of explosion, Suicune can take advantage of its great bulk and and drop protect entirely in favor of a rest-talk set which prevents the opponent from beating Suicune by slowly whittling down its hp over the course of the game.
Celebi was already good pre-boom ban but I wanted to write about it anyway as it being tier 4 on the viability rankings was and currently is extremely fraudulent. Celebi fills a similar niche to Suicune but arguably does it better due to psychic/grass having surprisingly good offensive coverage meaning celebi doesn't have to set up as much to be an offensive threat while also having a more reliable recovery option with recover. Celebi also isn't limited to just this one niche as it can also support its teammates as an effective screens setter.
I do believe Baton Pass to be a legitimate threat that people are not currently respecting in the teambuilder. The cost of multiple Pokemon specifically to help facilitate the Baton pass and all the turns of setup required is more than worth the price. Ninjask is probably the best Baton Pass user as with the combination of Swords Dance + Speed Boost it can quickly turn hard hitting Pokemon with otherwise middling speed stats into terrifying offensive threats as seen here.
Biggest Losers
Gengar has definitely been hit the hardest by the boom ban as it got so much of its value out of its explosion immunity which has now been rendered completely redundant. Though that being said, Gengar still has an excellent movepool with plenty of options to disrupt setup like taunt, haze, will-o-wisp and perish song which could become quite relevant if teams like the one zee showcased here start to become more popular.
I figured I'd include this two in the same section as the boom ban has affected them both in pretty much the same way. Explosion/ self destruct was a pivotal part of their toolkits and losing that has almost certainly removed both of them from tier 1 contention. Though both Pokemon did already have alternative movesets that didn't use explosion, see here, they are now much more less threatening.
Teams
Thoughts on the Boom Ban
My opinion on this is certainly subject to change as the meta continues to progress but as of right now I feel like it was the right call. Games have generally felt a lot less swingy while still generally being pretty fast paced. If bulky setup teams become optimised to a point where it feels egregiously bad to play against I may reconsider but I think there are enough options to deal with those kinds of teams that people just aren't using yet.
Biggest Winners
Prior to the boom ban, Suicune was an uncommon sight in tournament play due to requiring a couple turns of setup for it do to any real damage which made it a prime target for explosion. But now as that's no longer an option, Suicune has become an absolute menace. When paired with intimidate users as seen here, here and here it can become extremely difficult to remove from the field, and due to the lack of explosion, Suicune can take advantage of its great bulk and and drop protect entirely in favor of a rest-talk set which prevents the opponent from beating Suicune by slowly whittling down its hp over the course of the game.
Celebi was already good pre-boom ban but I wanted to write about it anyway as it being tier 4 on the viability rankings was and currently is extremely fraudulent. Celebi fills a similar niche to Suicune but arguably does it better due to psychic/grass having surprisingly good offensive coverage meaning celebi doesn't have to set up as much to be an offensive threat while also having a more reliable recovery option with recover. Celebi also isn't limited to just this one niche as it can also support its teammates as an effective screens setter.
I do believe Baton Pass to be a legitimate threat that people are not currently respecting in the teambuilder. The cost of multiple Pokemon specifically to help facilitate the Baton pass and all the turns of setup required is more than worth the price. Ninjask is probably the best Baton Pass user as with the combination of Swords Dance + Speed Boost it can quickly turn hard hitting Pokemon with otherwise middling speed stats into terrifying offensive threats as seen here.
Biggest Losers
Gengar has definitely been hit the hardest by the boom ban as it got so much of its value out of its explosion immunity which has now been rendered completely redundant. Though that being said, Gengar still has an excellent movepool with plenty of options to disrupt setup like taunt, haze, will-o-wisp and perish song which could become quite relevant if teams like the one zee showcased here start to become more popular.
I figured I'd include this two in the same section as the boom ban has affected them both in pretty much the same way. Explosion/ self destruct was a pivotal part of their toolkits and losing that has almost certainly removed both of them from tier 1 contention. Though both Pokemon did already have alternative movesets that didn't use explosion, see here, they are now much more less threatening.
Teams
Thoughts on the Boom Ban
My opinion on this is certainly subject to change as the meta continues to progress but as of right now I feel like it was the right call. Games have generally felt a lot less swingy while still generally being pretty fast paced. If bulky setup teams become optimised to a point where it feels egregiously bad to play against I may reconsider but I think there are enough options to deal with those kinds of teams that people just aren't using yet.
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Zapdos is definitely good enough that it deserves its own tier. You need a really good reason to not use zap on your teams. It's fast, hits stupidly hard, is impossible to OHKO (nobody's using glass zap anymore right?), and has a ton of flexibility.I'll explain the tier 1 and tier 4 but not gonna touch on most of the tier 2/3 guys because we all know what they do. tiers are ordered
premier win condition in the tier. CM with Natural Cure and both damage-dealing recovery and normal recovery is just really good. Has a great defensive typing for the metagame. Really just needs to be kept away from strong physical damage but it already fits so well with Arcanine at a minimum so you should always have at least one guy to help manage Aero/Metagross/Tauros Nothing is safe from this thing in a vacuum and that's what makes it so dangerous. It's the best revenge killer in the tier and forces reactive gameplay from the opponent as soon as it hits the field. Healthy waters can check it but it's hard to keep waters healthy when the two best mons in the tier are Electric and Grass types. Very easy to get value out of this Pokemon and I'm never displeased with it. I think everybody thought this guy was gonna be a monster following the boom ban because how else are you threatening the bulky CM water. Well refer to what I said above about the two best Pokemon in the tier. You aren't setting up in front of Zap without a switch to Maro which then leaves you with 2 slots vulnerable to Celebi and you're not really beating Celebi ever if it boosts before you. Top of tier 3 because I still think it's a strong win condition but it does take proper play to pull off and you might just brick with it. Gonna choose to give this guy a little faith so he's at the bottom of 3 but even this might be too high for it. It's got a great toolbox of coverage but the problem is all that stuff hits its targets for 50% +- 10 and why do that when you can hit things with Zap/Arc/Bi/Waters. Still he's got fast Wisp, Skill Swap Levitate, and can cheese with dbond. Walls curselax and cheese registeel I guess?? The threat of the Pokemon's existence is definitely enough to get me to build teams in a certain way so I guess that's enoughTier 4 - what are these guys doing?
- sun. rain functions basically the same post boomban except you cant do t1 boom + rain dance gar but sun imo has retooled itself entirely from being a Shiftry + Exeggutor boomspam to Exeggutor and Charizard firing off strong, fast attacks. That definitely isn't as threatening as the former so I've dropped it to 4 but I do think this is probably the strongest option for things not in the top tiers. - functions like a mini zapdos on marowak teams. these don't really need arc as much because they're probably using gyarados. surprisingly hard to remove if you cant tbolt it, especially if behind a sub.
- walls celebi. we probably need to start using fire blast arc which can also just contend with the mon more provided you hit but yeah if you ever Really want the matchup i guess this is the guy for you
- annoying cosmic power cheese mon, don't use CM on this guy just use celebi instead - the other rain mon, not kingdra so tier 4 - if you really wanna whack snorlax and ttar these are the guys for you. might be good on some cm spam stuff or just rain.
- follow me, adv follow me is pretty cool but i think these guys arent super necessary because all of the best cm/dd guys can kinda just position themselves with proper pressure from allies.
- again a guy that leads pretty hard into setup with fake out/icy wind/encore but I don't find it worth a lot because all the top 3 hit it for SE - fake out + decent offense - fast encore that you can't fake out is pretty cool. it doesn't really kill anything but it does have the punches - generally inferior cm/dd counterparts to the higher ranked guys but can hit the right boards and sweep
- sits on zap and aero, kinda cool?
- bulky water with recovery but not really doing much else 
- remnants of past meta that probably are just kinda bad now but i'll leave em here.realistically you never need to dip into anything below tier 3. you can play a full tournament just bringing zap/bi/aero + 3 every week and never lose on matchup because that's how strong the top mons are in this meta. I'm glad we banned boom, I think it feels fun to play without it. i think baton pass stuff is really bad, so bad i wont even rank it.
Sandslash has an excellent niche as a Tyranitar counter with a set like this:
Sandslash @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Aerial Ace
Being able to OHKO any Tyranitar that isn't 252 HP EV's and 228 DEF EV's, is a powerful trait.
Sand Veil is a nice, yet unfair bonus in the matchup too.
Only taking 20-40% and 20-50% after a Dragon Dance boost from each of Tyranitar's moves makes it a great switch-in.
Max HP lets it take 1 max SpAtk, Gengar Ice Punch, unlike running max Speed and getting OHKO-ed by it.
Aerial Ace and Hidden Power Bug let it heavily chip Celebi (89.8 - 105.9%), or OHKO Heracross and Exeggutor.