An alternative to the "tier" system

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Sufferage

I casually suggested this in another thread, but after thinking about it more, it seems like a really good idea. I want to know if this seems plausible (will it actually balance out teams or only allow a single OU Pokemon to sweep an entire team of UUs), and if it's ever been considered before.

Basically, each Pokemon will be given a score which we determine. A Pokemon like Salamence with excellent stats, movepool, etc. would have a high score (250 for example), while a Pokemon with good stats but a poor movepool might have a lower score (100), and a Pokemon with both bad stats and a bad movepool, such as Kricketune would have a very low score (let's say, 50).

Before a battle/tournament, the participants would agree on the total score allowed for each team, or limit how high the highest score can be. For example, I'm going to have a battle with a friend where our total team score cannot exceed 800. I want to use my Salamence (250), so I'm not down to 550 points. Using a few other decent Pokemon leaves me with 200 points, so I throw in Blissey (200 for example). Or, I'm having a battle in which neither participant can use a Pokemon whose score equals/exceeds 200. I can't use my Blissey or Salamence, but I could use 6 100pt Pokemon while my opponent may end up using 6 70pt Pokemon. Or, you could make some sort of mixture of the rules, allowing 1000 points, but only one Pokemon 250pts or higher, or something like that.

I think this would help balance out teams so that all teams aren't made up of the same OU Pokemon. The problem I see with this concept initially, however, is that one OU Pokemon like Garchomp or Heracross could potentially sweep an entire opponent's team, even if the rest of that team (the one Hera/Gar/etc.) is on are all very weak Pokemon. Is there some way around this, or is it not a realistic issue? What do people think about this?
 
Realistically speaking, this sounds nice in theory. However, think more deeply about what would happen:

People will always be min-maxers. At one point or another, there would become a certain OU TEAM of team as a whole (more or less, at least. Maybe one or two differences in each trainer's team) would be often used, thus leading to an even more lack of originality.
 
So you're agreeing that the problem I mentioned would be a serious issue? Like someone's team would be Salamence, and a bunch of weaker Pokemon, being that Salamence would use his high speed/great movepool to sweep the rest of the other team without needing anyone else?
 
You've already hit upon the major problem of this system:
Sufferage said:
I think this would help balance out teams so that all teams aren't made up of the same OU Pokemon. The problem I see with this concept initially, however, is that one OU Pokemon like Garchomp or Heracross could potentially sweep an entire opponent's team, even if the rest of that team (the one Hera/Gar/etc.) is on are all very weak Pokemon. Is there some way around this, or is it not a realistic issue? What do people think about this?
Click to expand...
Pokemon like Mewtwo and Kyogre are placed in the uber tier because they simply run over every pokemon in the lesser tiers (shut up I'm aware of Shedinja in the Kyogre case). So what if the rest of your team is weaker for it? You've got Kyogre, capable of destroying everything in sight.

The same logic applies to OU vs UU, just not as extreme.
 
Sounds like HeroClix...

And even then, a 250+ point Superman was able to dominate the game for a while...

But no... like the guy before said... your idea would limit creative teams even more... someone would fine a perfect 800/w.e point team and everyone would then copy/modify slightly...

Good try though... do you play HeroClix?

Peace...
 
No, in fact I've never heard of HeroClix, lol. I got the idea from something, but I can't remember what (i'm kinda tired right now :D).

Is there any way we could modify a system like this to make it workable, or is the current tier system still the best option?
 
The point system? Uiru (sp?) I believe suggested this back in GSC, perhaps earlier. Obviously it never caught on, and I don't think there's much point to it. Teams are still going to be made out of the "same OU Pokemon", since after a while people are going to figure out what works.

Really, it isn't so bad that teams are similiar, is it? It's a strategy game, not a popularity contest.
 
Another problem with a point system is that it would be even more difficult to agree on what point values each pokemon was assigned than it would be to relegate them to tiers. It's nice to say that better pokemon would recieve a larger amount of points, but actually quanitifying the use of each pokemon would be incredibly difficult to measure.
 
Better_Sandw1ch said:
Another problem with a point system is that it would be even more difficult to agree on what point values each pokemon was assigned than it would be to relegate them to tiers. It's nice to say that better pokemon would recieve a larger amount of points, but actually quanitifying the use of each pokemon would be incredibly difficult to measure.
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Yep.

The idea is good in theory, but in reality, its horrible, no offense. The points would be incredibly difficult to set up, and how would you get everyone to agree? You could set all the pokes in a tier to a certain amount of points, but its the same thing as what we have now, then.

I really don't see a reason for change. A system based on usage is probably best, even though I don't really agree with having a system. (Really, lets just battle.)
 
Actually I believe this points system has already been utilized in another fashion. Standard cup of Pokemon Stadium, in a sense that is. If you wanted to run any of the big 600 base stat pokemon you essentially forfeited 5 levels on everything else in your team.

In theory this is one way round tiers but its not too feasible and FAR too complicated.


One other idea if I may propose it that I once had was a limited pokemon system, for those familiar with other games like say Yugioh Duel Monsters TCG. The simple idea is you'd keep the tier system but they would be allowed in all play in a limited form.

Example being is that if say they are pokemon belonging to the top tier you'd only be allowed to run 1 pokemon from that group in your team. The next tier down essentially equivilent to the 'Boderline' tier would allow 2 to be played. Everything else under would be usuable as you wished. Of course 00bers would remain barred from standard play unless you specifically played no holds barred as usual.

The advantage of this kind of system is it can actually be tested alongside the standard tier system as it actually requires tiers to exist before it can. It does though essentially tie up that standard/BL/UU play into one nice neat package.

Think of it more as a refinement of the tiers, it'd essentially give you a team of 1 standard, 2 BL's and 3 UU/NU. Pyramid tier system might be a proper name for it given the shape it gives.

I think this is more like the idea the thread starter had but without all the unnecessary work.
 
This system also assumes that every pokemon uses standard sets. If someone wanted to use a special attack-oriented Gyarados to surprise counters, the 250 or w/e points that they must deduct from their overall pointcount were derived from Gyarados immense potential for physical sweeping. It would be a ripoff.
 
In theory, this is a decent idea, but in reality, all it will lead to is squabbling over minute score differences. Also, imagine that there was a 500 point limit and there are 12 Pokemon to pick from with the following scores: 495, 100, 100, 100, 100, 50, 50, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1. Which team would you pick? Obviously, the team with the 495 and five 1s, because 495 would be able to completely annihilate everything else.

Here's another example: would you pick 1 level 12 Bidoof or 6 level 2 Bidoofs?
 
Still, even if that becomes the truth, people will find out what said stronger pokes will be (Example, Salamence) and they'll find a low-point poke that can SPECIFICALLY counter that poke. Its the same way why people ran Magneton; to counter Skarmory.

If Salamence becomes that huge threat, people will pick a poke like Manectric who OHKO's it with HP Ice and outspeeds it. Manectric doesn't have NEARLY as much use as Salamence and as such would be worth way less points, so that leaves said team to an advantage.

That is just an example. Should the high point poke be Tyranitar, one would opt for a bulky fighter (Do I hear Hariyama?) to be the lesser point poke. And so, teams will eventually balance out.

However, rather as standard pokes, there'll be standard teams. For example, there'll be Salamence teams, Tyranitar teams, Garchom teams...a Salamence team would want a poke such as Raichu to tag along to take care of bulky waters and a good Fighting type to take down any pure Icers. Tyranitar teams have more use for Psychic or Flying types, and as such will give Gardevoir or Fearow playtime.
 
I like this idea.

I was actually thinking about something similar to this for me and my friends (we train everything, but tend to only use the BL/OU). Instead of assigning points though, you still keep the tier system, but battles will all be mixed tier.

Teams would be constructed according to a simpler point system (no ubers though). Each poke has a point value:
OU=4 points
BL=3 points
UU=2 points
NU=1 point

When I was thinking about it a while ago, I decided that a total of 15 points per team (or less) was decent enough. That would allow for potentially 3 OU pokes at a time. The idea is to strike a balance and still come up with a winning team.
 
Great Sage said:
In theory, this is a decent idea, but in reality, all it will lead to is squabbling over minute score differences. Also, imagine that there was a 500 point limit and there are 12 Pokemon to pick from with the following scores: 495, 100, 100, 100, 100, 50, 50, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1. Which team would you pick? Obviously, the team with the 495 and five 1s, because 495 would be able to completely annihilate everything else.

Here's another example: would you pick 1 level 12 Bidoof or 6 level 2 Bidoofs?
Click to expand...

Lets call Mr. 495 Arceus and lets call the five 1 magicarp.Let call the 4 100s Jumpluff,Electrode,Ramprados,Muk, and two 50 Chimecho and Marcargo.I putting my money on 4 100s and two 50s.

The problem does not come one huge thing dominating ,the problem comes with combination of things like a Hippo and Rhyperior, Kyorge and Omastar.Which would be very hard rate which is similar what we have now but alot more pokes would be in play,teams would be a little more creative and ever pokemon theoretically in play.What we have know works a little better,but something like this would bring certain freshness to uncreative metagame.
 
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