An idea to make random battle balanced

[HighRollah]

How about both teams are exactly the same, and you can choose which pokemon will be the lead?

This was prediction will be the most important factor in winning, and while the common crits and hax and misses can still present themselves, there will be an equal opportunity for both sides to experience this.

It will also prevent WOEFULLY unbalanced team matchups which can make it impossible short of some very grave errors to lose a battle, and would thus justify the existence of a ladder as luck would be such a small factor as to whether you will win or not.

To further improve we could make it a best 2/3 system as well.

That way only the people who DESERVE to be at the top of the ladder will be there and not be representative of how lucky you can get with the RNG.

Or we could do away with a randbats ladder entirely.

 

[Relados]

Most people like the random teams - doing away with that would make random battles far more boring.

If you're suggesting we remove the randbats ladder, you probably don't understand how popular it is.

 

[Stinson]

Actually randbats is a lot more balanced this gen anyway, because you can no longer get NFEs, so you get less 'unwinable' battles now.

 

[Skalaylee]

Random battles is one of the most people tiers on PS its well made and balanced. In just about every random battles game you get all the tools to win you just have to use them properly in order to achieve victory.

 

[Stinson]

That way only the people who DESERVE to be at the top of the ladder will be there and not be representative of how lucky you can get with the RNG.

I think the fact that some people achieve great ranks with high W/L ratios in randbats shows that there is more than just luck to the tier, it takes as much practise as any other tier.

 

[Skalaylee]

Yes i do agree with Stinson it does take practice. I got voiced becuase of random battles and i played random battles alot. Once you play and gain the experience you know what pokemon run what sets just like any other tier. I will admit some matches you will be in have had a "better" team but you get the equipment to win

 

[HighRollah]

Most people like the random teams - doing away with that would make random battles far more boring.

If you're suggesting we remove the randbats ladder, you probably don't understand how popular it is.

Is chess boring? I mean, we are scoring on a system used to score games where there is almost 0 luck involved. Should we randomly assign more or less points at the end of a battle as well?

Also I'm not saying to get rid of randbats, but maybe put in a new game mode. Something people can play who don't want to spend time in tiers and team building, yet want the gameplay to be far more balanced and an accurate representation of who is a better player than currently set up with randbats.

Heck, even making ranbats best 2/3 would help alleviate SOME of the problems.

I think the fact that some people achieve great ranks with high W/L ratios in randbats shows that there is more than just luck to the tier, it takes as much practise as any other tier.

I guess I'm just one unlucky SOB than. I have reached the top 25 multiple times in the past year so I'm not speaking from inexperience here, but I consistently get strings of matches where its not possible for me to win due to not being able to plan for a specific pokemon (I mean really, we should be able to see each others teams and choose our leads at least. Sometimes a bad lead can make a HUGE difference in a match) or having a team which is completely countered by the opponents, so clearly some work needs to be done.

 

[Relados]

Also I'm not saying to get rid of randbats, but maybe put in a new game mode.

Or we could do away with a randbats ladder entirely.

 

[Skalaylee]

Relados lol you win

 

[Skalaylee]

HighRollah I'm pretty sure if you where Top 25 multiple times you would have realized random battle has Been changed before to make it more even not to long ago.Most people in the top 25 have been playing and have the experience so they can do what I said before. If there was such a big problem there would be more people complaining. This is what I bet happened. You where doing good in random battles on a streak and you get one of those games where you didn't have the "best" team so instead of trying to get in that streak again you came here.To tell us there is a problem

 

[Stinson]

I also think if you hit top 25 multiple times you'd realize that randbats is a skill, and not just luck.

 

[HighRollah]

HighRollah I'm pretty sure if you where Top 25 multiple times you would have realized random battle has Been changed before to make it more even not to long ago.Most people in the top 25 have been playing and have the experience so they can do what I said before. If there was such a big problem there would be more people complaining. This is what I bet happened. You where doing good in random battles on a streak and you get one of those games where you didn't have the "best" team so instead of trying to get in that streak again you came here.To tell us there is a problem

I know it has been improved. I appreciate that very much, but it still doesn't change the fact there is a lot of luck involved, far more than the other tiers, and its ladder is not the most accurate representation of skill compared to the other tiers.

Can you really not see this?

The reason most people don't complain is because they either don't care enough to complain, don't know how, or understand randbats ladders aren't the most accurate. (most people I talk to in battles all understand you get battles where its extremely difficult or impossible to win. If two people are exactly equal in skill, the one with the better team wins. Its simple as that. A better team can even compensate for having less skill. Not to mention I have had quite a few pokemon with no damaging moves aside from maybe toxic or will-o-whisp)

I also think if you hit top 25 multiple times you'd realize that randbats is a skill, and not just luck.

I know there is a lot of skill involved, but no amount of skill in the world can guarantee a win in randbats. Thats the issue I am talking about

Now because pokemon has so much luck in it compared to other competitive videogames thats a given for any match (potentially) but these occurrences happen very often in randbats tier.

All I am doing is trying to come up with idea to make it as balanced as possible.
Heck, with randomized mirrored teams it would be more balanced than all the other metas!


http://pastebin.com/WeWeBykd

Here is a pastebin of a battle where one of my pokemon was able to 1HK0 4 of the other guys pokemon after one DD. There was no way he could've prevented that sweep save for some hax, which he had a lot of in the beginning.

Now I'll admit I played that battle very well, but once his golduck and regirock were down to around 50% health all I had to do (and did do) was set up one DD and it was GG.

Tell me how that is balanced. Please. I don't want to hear about "well sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't and it all balances out" because we are not scoring people on a curve here, we are supposed to be scoring individual skill.

This was a very shallow victory for me, and an extremely disappointing loss for him. Its almost like gambling you get graded on. Addicting? Sure. Fun? It would have to be to be addicting. Fair? Not a chance.

 

[Skalaylee]

but it still doesn't change the fact there is a lot of luck involved,

I know there is a lot of skill involved,

The reason why people are not complaining is because there is nothing to complain about.It is even and you do have bad matches games but overall it's fiar. If there was a problem it would have been brought to te staffs attention

 

[Mr.E]

Fly/Hyper Beam Rayquaza was literally the OFFICIAL world champion at one time. In what format is anyone ever guaranteed to win in Pokémon? It's a game of statistics, sometimes you're just going to lose despite making all the right plays because oh you missed a 95% accurate move twice or got crit at all the wrong times. Wins are never guaranteed from Turn 1 and only sometimes can you ever put yourself in a position to 100% win partway through a battle.

Randbats simply add another random element to the fire, that of the teams handed out. I suppose you could also argue it removes the skill in teambuilding but that's irrelevant as far as actual battling is concerned. The better player is still more likely to win and, statistically speaking, there's really not much that can be done to adjust the rating system to account for sheer randomness short of having someone read every battle log and subjectively adjust rating changes based on "hax." Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't and it all balances out.

After a large number of battles.

Not every interception is the quarterback's fault either but guess what, they all count against him equally whether he just threw a stinker or the receiver popped up what should've been an easy catch for a defender to nab.

A better team can even compensate for having less skill.

And more skill can even compensate for having a worse team. ;[

 

[HighRollah]

The reason why people are not complaining is because there is nothing to complain about.It is even and you do have bad matches games but overall it's fiar. If there was a problem it would have been brought to te staffs attention

In order for a game to be considered "competitive" in a sports sense by most of the worlds standards (which is why pokemon still isn't an e-sport while games like dota, starcraft, CS, sports games, and street fighter are all recognized e-sports) the outcome of the match needs to be based on skill and not random chance factors.

Again, pokemon IS NOT A BALANCED GAME. It never was and probably never will be. BUT! In all other modes aside from randbats you have far more control over the elements of luck. Its still not 100% but it is enough to make luck a much smaller factor (hax or crits can still win a situation, but still. Thats also why tourneys are best 2/3) all I am saying is why cant we make randbats just as balanced in terms of what could be as opposed to how it is now where not only are elements of luck at play that are part of pokemon (rng hax, criticals, missing more than statistically possible) but you also have the chance of getting pokemon with poor typing or poor movesets in regard to your opponent

Not every interception is the quarterback's fault either but guess what, they all count against him equally whether he just threw a stinker or the receiver popped up what should've been an easy catch for a defender to nab.;[

Did you really just compare a mistake made in real life to a random number generator? REALLY???

And more skill can even compensate for having a worse team. ;[

.

http://pastebin.com/tmALUdhv

Here is another battle where hax and our teams played a significant role. I even knew it wouldn't be likely for me to win without knowing some of his pokes before more than 3 of mine had fainted. Even still I had hax save me some and still was counter haxed and lost. Even the other guy understood it was all hax!

http://pastebin.com/kKMWEfWy

This battle needs no explanation of how unfair it was. It not even subjective. There was literally no way I couldve won with my team. I even remember the movesets for my pokemon if you STILL think there is nothing wrong with the randbats system.

http://pastebin.com/vu3xwTeU

Here is one where I am the lucky one. Even with him getting multiple critical hits with stabbed stone edge from kabutops there was nothing he could do to stop the almighty magic guard roost cosmic power psycho shift stored power sigilyph! I'm not even sure why its even in randbats with how broken it is. Unless you have a team prepared for it or with some fast heavy hitters there is no way to stop it! Everybody I have played against who sees one of these things knows its almost guaranteed they will either win or lose (depending on who has it)

I could do this all day. These were 3 matches back to back. Clearly there is something wrong.


"overall its fair"

NO. NO OVERALL. Again, we are not scored on a curve. If we were this would be an acceptable answer, but we arent. If two students in college write a paper and one gets a C and the other gets an A unless its graded on a curve that is a C and an A. You cant say "overall we have B students". Thats not how anything works.

 

[Skalaylee]

YOU REALIZE YOU ARE PLAYING RANDOM BATTLES. That is the point so there will be chances and big factors. And if it will be never even why are you tryin to fix it. Random battles is just like other tiers there are pokemon that are better then other and you will see them but there is a way you just have to find it.

I'm not saying lopsided battles don't happen I'm saying that they are not often enough and depending on players skills you can avoid it. Just like in other tiers you do get sweped or beaten bad but your skill can change that.

I'm sorry until there is more of this brought to the attention of staff nothing will change

 

[noobcubed]

It is a statistical fact that, regardless of how much luck is involved in a game, if there is even a little skill in the game then the more skilful player will win, if you play enough games. However, the more luck there is relative to skill, the longer it takes. In fact, the time taken for the best players to rise to the top goes as the square of the relative significance of luck and skill, so, if you double the amount of luck in the game, it takes four times as many games to establish who the best players are. This is exacerbated by the fact that ladder rankings are weighted towards recent matches - in fact, given such a weighting, it may not even be possible at all for the best players to be consistently in the top spot. This is all mathematical, so don't argue with it because it is true.

While I'm not claiming that regular tiers are a luck-free zone, it seems as though the Zarel has done everything she could to make randbats as luck-dependant as possible. Thus, from the arguments above, it is quite possible that skill is not the decisive factor in the PS randbats rankings. As for the player who is consistently in the top 25:

- That could still be down to luck, because you will have to play a lot of games for skill to count.
- More likely, the majority of skilful Pokemon players will be busy playing metagames where their skill delivers more immediate results, meaning that the gap in skill between you and the majority of the ladder is so vast that, even though there is still a horrendous amount of luck in randbats, skill is dominant again. Thus the fact that you are consistently top 25 just goes to how poor the ladder is, that even the huge amounts of luck in randbats cannot help them.

 

[HighRollah]

YOU REALIZE YOU ARE PLAYING RANDOM BATTLES. That is the point so there will be chances and big factors. And if it will be never even why are you tryin to fix it. Random battles is just like other tiers there are pokemon that are better then other and you will see them but there is a way you just have to find it.

I'm not saying lopsided battles don't happen I'm saying that they are not often enough and depending on players skills you can avoid it. Just like in other tiers you do get sweped or beaten bad but your skill can change that.

I'm sorry until there is more of this brought to the attention of staff nothing will change

I hope you looked through the battle logs I posted. I just added a new one a few seconds ago.

Also, I know its random, and I know its luck. What rubs me the wrong way is people are treating it like its not just luck, or mostly luck, or even 1/3rd luck. It is AT LEAST 1/3rd luck, and having a ldder system for randbats is incredibly silly, naive, or meaningless UNLESS more is done to make things even.

Again, my suggestions of having both teams be mirrors and allowing you to choose which pokemon leads would balance it out to a point it would be the most balanced game mode. Than add best 2/3 and it would be nearly 100% skill based.

Currently its maybe 70% skill based, provided you get a team that actually is capable of defeating your opponents team (providing they are good players and not idiots. Even still there are idiot proof team matchups, like the one I posted with the inability to do any significant damage against the guys toxicroak which countered 4 of my pokemon alone)

 

[~Eon~]

If you want a team that is capable of achieving 100% with proper strategy you are asking too much of pokemon. Even with your mirroring idea, two competent players will predict what the most advantageous move is and the battle essentially becomes 50/50 on weather to follow through with your prediction or not. Removing too much randomness is just as bad as having too much randomness. I think that players with a high win to lose ratio do have good skills within a tolerance level. The randbats just need some tweaking on some sets but that's just me.

 

[Woodchuck]

I think this thread fundamentally misunderstands randbats...
If you want to play a metagame with less reliance on luck, try a metagame without "Random" in its name.

 

[HighRollah]

If you want a team that is capable of achieving 100% with proper strategy you are asking too much of pokemon. Even with your mirroring idea, two competent players will predict what the most advantageous move is and the battle essentially becomes 50/50 on weather to follow through with your prediction or not. Removing too much randomness is just as bad as having too much randomness. I think that players with a high win to lose ratio do have good skills within a tolerance level. The randbats just need some tweaking on some sets but that's just me.

Thats not true. If it was chess and checkers would end in a tie. But it doesn't.

I think this thread fundamentally misunderstands randbats...
If you want to play a metagame with less reliance on luck, try a metagame without "Random" in its name.

Obviously a lot of importance is placed on ranbats tiers as many people have been given voice rank from being high on the ladder. Something which I never received even though I fit the requirements multiple times...

 

[Skalaylee]

Yeah let's end this here clearly nothing is going to change. Also the voice challenge has been over for awhile now so no one can obtain voice rank thru battling.

 

[Tesung]

Why are these random battles so random? When I click random battle, I want to be in complete control and have it be perfectly fair. This is bulllllshut

 

[Woodchuck]

Obviously a lot of importance is placed on ranbats tiers as many people have been given voice rank from being high on the ladder. Something which I never received even though I fit the requirements multiple times...

This policy has been over for months. People used to be able to get voice during a rotation of featured tiers that included basically all the official Smogon metagames in addition to randbats. But again, that ended months ago and was implemented by an administrator who is no longer actively involved in policy.

Thats not true. If it was chess and checkers would end in a tie. But it doesn't.

Anyone who is remotely aware of competitive chess knows that chess ends in a tie all the time.

 

[170114]

Sorry I have to do this. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Even the better-knowing users in this thread who, in their pursuit of explaining the skills involved in randbats and the importance of long-run observations, are positively murdering every single point you're trying to make (which you mainly do by highlighting selected examples of when you think you were unlucky (you're just as lucky as everyone else, play more battles and you'll see, and with Elo it doesn't matter if you start bad or w/e)) --- even those users are grossly underestimating the level of skill involved in randbats! This is something most people do, but the fact is that randbats is very much something you can attain a high skill level in, if you observe in the long run, that is. No reason randbats should be looked down at, compared to tiers where you select your own team, I'd say battle skill becomes even more important, so it's the ultimate de facto, objective skill measure as I see it (again, LONG RUN, mind you). You, my boy, clearly haven't done your homework in investigating players who have such skills. Instead, you label yourself as top 25 material throughout the thread, leading everyone to respond to your drivel as if you actually know what you're talking about, and possess a high level of skill. I may be the only responder who ranksearched and/or replaysearched your PS alt, but even that and the three latest games (including each raving chat dialogue) (links listed below), were highly indicative of how seriously one should take it when you speak of randbats. If you think you're among the 25 most skilled randbats players out there, you're gravely mistaken.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/randombattle-80458185
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/randombattle-80454277
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/randombattle-79238736
Hopefully the end of this thread (don't bother responding to me, OP).