An Inconsistency in the Baton Pass Clause

[xtinaxendrix]

The current rules governing the use of Baton Pass have done an excellent job of creating a balanced and dynamic metagame. There are, however, two boosting moves that have not been implemented in a way that is consistent with the ruleset as it is written: Ancientpower and Silver Wind.

The current baton pass clause reads:

• Baton Pass Clause: Teams are limited to 1 form of stat-boosting alongside Baton Pass across the whole team. Mean Look/Spider Web/Block + Baton Pass is also disallowed.

At the present moment, it is possible for a Pokemon to raise its stats with a boosting move or ability -> use Ancientpower/Silver Wind -> receive an omniboost -> pass both sources of boosts to another Pokemon. This is currently the only way to pass a combination of boosts from multiple sources and it is incredibly impactful in games where it occurs. As the clause is written, this should not be allowed.

Pictured below are the Pokemon that learn both AncientPower and Baton Pass. Celebi is the primary offender, as it can comfortably fit AP into its common Swords Dance + Baton Pass set as the filler attack with relatively low opportunity cost.

Here are the Pokemon that learn both Silver Wind and Baton Pass. The main offender here, probably to nobody's surprise, is Ninjask, who can passively generate speed boosts and commonly slots Silver Wind on its Substitute + Baton Pass sets. Scizor and Scyther also commonly run it on their [boosting move] + Silver Wind + Baton Pass sets, they would be the largest casualty of consistent enforcement of the single boost clause.

Making the enforcement of this clause consistent with every other boosting move in the game would not outlaw AncientPower + Baton Pass Togetic, nor would it prevent Scizor/Scyther/Jask from using Silver Wind as a STAB option on their offensive sets. It would, however, remove Ninjask's ability to roll the dice and pass +1/+1/+1/+1/+3 to any Pokemon while reacting to their switchin.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

[Celdanami]

Would celebi be able to run SD pass + AP? Or does your suggestion limit both SW and AP on pass sets completely?

 

[Rambode]

Would celebi be able to run SD pass + AP? Or does your suggestion limit both SW and AP on pass sets completely?

From what I've gathered, AP/SW would be considered boosting moves, therefore "outlawing" SD + AP, which would mean celebi would need hp rock if it still wants to hit zard and molt, which, to be fair, it sometimes runs anyways

 

[xtinaxendrix]

Would celebi be able to run SD pass + AP? Or does your suggestion limit both SW and AP on pass sets completely?

One or the other. The current clause allows for "1 form of stat-boosting alongside Baton Pass" which SD + AP + BP is in clear violation of; I'm simply advocating for a consistently enforced ruleset.

SD + BP = ok
AP + BP = ok
SD + BP + AP = violates single boost clause

 

[OMNIWEEB]

Scizor (and Scyther) cannot have Silver Wind and Reversal in one moveset btw.

 

[spookysocialist]

We'll need to ban Snatch + BP since you could snatch multiple boosts to pass.
And recycle and baton pass since you could recycle starf berry repeatedly.
Oh and trick + baton pass since you could trick a stat boosting berry an opponent is holding.
And Role Play + Baton pass since you could copy a stat boosting ability.
And skill swap + BP for the same reason.

Have I covered the next 2-3 years of threads or am I missing any?

 

[SPFunkM]

Ancient power is used on sdpass celebi to deny roaring fires and zapdos without denying you the crucial hidden power slot (used for hidden power fighting). How can you ban something with a legitimate niche, guess this horrible inconsistency in the tier enabling robbing games has to stay.

 

[Rambode]

We'll need to ban Snatch + BP since you could snatch multiple boosts to pass.
And recycle and baton pass since you could recycle starf berry repeatedly.
Oh and trick + baton pass since you could trick a stat boosting berry an opponent is holding.
And Role Play + Baton pass since you could copy a stat boosting ability.
And skill swap + BP for the same reason.

Have I covered the next 2-3 years of threads or am I missing any?

Firstly, the post isn't even asking for an omniboost + bp ban, it just wants to include omniboost on the boosting moves list to avoid ap/sw + boosting move + bp

>Snatch + BP
If you do Snatch + Boosting move + BP you're limiting yourself to 1 attacking move + rely on the opp actually using the move so it's giga unreliable

> Recycle and baton pass with starf
Starf is already included in the boosting + bp clause

> Role Play/Skill Swap + BP
IIRC ninjask is the only mon with an ability that gives stat boosts so lol

:)

 

[SPFunkM]

Firstly, the post isn't even asking for an omniboost + bp ban, it just wants to include omniboost on the boosting moves list to avoid ap/sw + boosting move + bp

>Snatch + BP
If you do Snatch + Boosting move + BP you're limiting yourself to 1 attacking move + rely on the opp actually using the move so it's giga unreliable

> Recycle and baton pass with starf
Starf is already included in the boosting + bp clause

> Role Play/Skill Swap + BP
IIRC ninjask is the only mon with an ability that gives stat boosts so lol

:)

you can just run a different Pokemon with agilipass and ofc the incredibly viable and most certainly used snatch pass.

 

[ohko by scald]

We'll need to ban Snatch + BP since you could snatch multiple boosts to pass.
And recycle and baton pass since you could recycle starf berry repeatedly.
Oh and trick + baton pass since you could trick a stat boosting berry an opponent is holding.
And Role Play + Baton pass since you could copy a stat boosting ability.
And skill swap + BP for the same reason.

Have I covered the next 2-3 years of threads or am I missing any?

Snatch, Trick, Role Play and Skill Swap rely on the opponent to give you the opportunity to aquire multiple boosts.
I feel like it's very reasonable to play around Snatch. Role Play and Skill Swap literally require you to use a Ninjask, which probably means that you are using BP yourself.
I can see Trick being annoying, mostly because the move is already good enough, so it's not that far fetched to pull this off somewhat consistently.
Lastly, Recycle + Starf + BP should fall under the clause imo.

To summarize:
I don't see any need to restrict Snatch, Trick or Role Play. Just because you could pass multiple boosts doesn't mean that anyone would ever be able to pull this off in a serious game.

Regarding Starf, it should definitely be restricted, since you don't need your opponent to help you.

Trick has some cheese potential, so it's probably best to restrict it too.
Imo Psych Up should also be restricted. It's retroactive snatch, good luck playing around that.

 

[Celdanami]

We'll need to ban Snatch + BP since you could snatch multiple boosts to pass.
And recycle and baton pass since you could recycle starf berry repeatedly.
Oh and trick + baton pass since you could trick a stat boosting berry an opponent is holding.
And Role Play + Baton pass since you could copy a stat boosting ability.
And skill swap + BP for the same reason.

Have I covered the next 2-3 years of threads or am I missing any?

Please don't take snatch pass from me.

.... recycle starf is funny.... The only mon who could use this to pass is mime, who is banned.

 

[Celdanami]

One or the other. The current clause allows for "1 form of stat-boosting alongside Baton Pass" which SD + AP + BP is in clear violation of; I'm simply advocating for a consistently enforced ruleset.

SD + BP = ok
AP + BP = ok
SD + BP + AP = violates single boost clause

Yeah, I think the only real casualty of the policy you're proposing is the SD celebi set that runs pass, HP fighting and AP, which I think is fine.

 

[Rambode]

Please don't take snatch pass from me.

View attachment 680662
.... recycle starf is funny.... The only mon who could use this to pass is mime, who is banned.

Well, I guess technically Smeargle can pull it off, but if you allow Smeargle to get that low AND to stay that low without killing it, skill issue

 

[xtinaxendrix]

We'll need to ban Snatch + BP since you could snatch multiple boosts to pass.
And recycle and baton pass since you could recycle starf berry repeatedly.
Oh and trick + baton pass since you could trick a stat boosting berry an opponent is holding.
And Role Play + Baton pass since you could copy a stat boosting ability.
And skill swap + BP for the same reason.

Have I covered the next 2-3 years of threads or am I missing any?

Cute derail attempt, here's some notes: your slippery slope shitpost examples need some work. Starf + Recycle is still just one source of boosts. AP + SD Celebi and Silver Wind Jask are real sets that see play, don't require the opponent to bring a niche item or ability, and break the current clause in a significant way.

 

[SPFunkM]

Cute derail attempt, here's some notes: your slippery slope shitpost examples need some work. Starf + Recycle is still just one source of boosts. AP + SD Celebi and Silver Wind Jask are real sets that see play, don't require the opponent to bring a niche item or ability, and break the current clause in a significant way.

Speaking of slippery slope check their post history in regards to adv

 

[Siglut]

Do not mod the game for this

Also probably don't do anything about this i mean it's 0 impact but it's also not really an issue

 

[xtinaxendrix]

Do not mod the game for this

Also probably don't do anything about this i mean it's 0 impact but it's also not really an issue

Yeah we definitely don't have to mod the game to deal with it but it absolutely has impact and ruins games. Not sure if you've been playing much ADV this year but looking at the usage stats from ladder this month, Silver Wind is Ninjask's 4th most common move at 3/4 of the elo ranges surveyed. It is an issue, and there's no reason not to do something about it. As the rules are written, it isn't legal, and it doesn't make sense to wait for it to ruin a high profile tournament game to do something about it.

 

[Siglut]

Sure, it's just a very low chance to happen (if ninjask has more than one chance to click silver wind per game you're probably bad) and doesn't even guarantee a win if it does happen.
On an ideological level I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do think there's a reasonable distinction to be made between a move that has a secondary effect with a small chance to boost stats and a "stat-boosting" move/item/ability.
Anyway, if something does happen about this, don't forget to include metal claw / steel wing / whatever else.

 

[BigFatMantis]

This might sound like a crazy idea, but, and hear me out, what if we just banned Ninjask?

 

[xtinaxendrix]

This might sound like a crazy idea, but, and hear me out, what if we just banned Ninjask?

I 100% agree with you but since they've repeatedly refused to properly address Jask or accuracy drops, we can still take action on this uncompetitive element they haven't defended yet. Until something changes systematically, it's the best we've got.

On an ideological level I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do think there's a reasonable distinction to be made between a move that has a secondary effect with a small chance to boost stats and a "stat-boosting" move/item/ability.
Anyway, if something does happen about this, don't forget to include metal claw / steel wing / whatever else.

There is definitely a distinction to be made, and it's clearly the underlying argument for the current Showdown implementation. Thank you for bringing up the other moves this would affect, that's worth considering. However, outside of AP and SW, there are only 3 moves with a chance to raise stats: Metal Claw, Steel Wing and Meteor Mash. Nothing with Mash gets BP, and the other two moves are virtually never used, but for consistent enforcement, I think we should consider them as a source of boosts and hold them to the same standard w/r/t multipass as AP/SW.

As for Jask not being able to Silver Wind multiple times against a competent player, overall I agree, but when you're dealing with a mon that frequently spams accuracy drops and is almost always hiding behind a sub, often in the face of 85% or 90% accurate moves, nothing is guaranteed. 10% may be 10%, but as we know from Rock Slide and Ice Beam, it's a very real chance.

 

[SPFunkM]

Do not mod the game for this

Also probably don't do anything about this i mean it's 0 impact but it's also not really an issue

dont worry, no one who plays adv ou is supporting modding the game for this.

 

[gnore]

Sure, it's just a very low chance to happen (if ninjask has more than one chance to click silver wind per game you're probably bad) and doesn't even guarantee a win if it does happen.
On an ideological level I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do think there's a reasonable distinction to be made between a move that has a secondary effect with a small chance to boost stats and a "stat-boosting" move/item/ability.
Anyway, if something does happen about this, don't forget to include metal claw / steel wing / whatever else.

If no policy change is made, at least the wording must be rephrased. "1 form of stat-boosting" is too ambiguous to square with the current implementation exempting secondary effects.

 

[Celdanami]

If no policy change is made, at least the wording must be rephrased. "1 form of stat-boosting" is too ambiguous to square with the current implementation exempting secondary effects.

I agree that this is the least that could be done. It is unclear which 'off the beaten path' forms of statboosting count.