Arcanine (Specially Defensive)

uragg

Walking the streets with you in your worn-out jeans
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hey C&C, this is the first set that I've decided to try and post and I think that it's a very underrated and potentially useful set that Arcanine can use.

STATUS: uploaded

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/arcanine

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Morning Sun
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[Set Comments]

<p>While Arcanine is usually seen as a sweeper because of his high Attack and Speed stats, he has all the necessary tools to function as an effective specially defensive tank. Arcanine's good HP and Defense, naturally high Attack and Speed, and access to a reliable recovery move, Morning Sun, allow him to safely switch into and beat many top-tier special sweepers one-on-one.</p>

<p>With maxed out HP and Special Defense stats, Arcanine becomes a formidable special tank. This Arcanine is able to switch into some of UU's strongest special attackers and eliminate them. Even with no investment in his Attack stat, Flare Blitz and ExtremeSpeed still hit hard enough to take care of physically frail sweepers such as Alakazam and Mismagius, as well as targets hit super effectively, such as Venusaur. Toxic is Arcanine's main source of damage against walls such as Milotic and bulkier sweepers such as Moltres; both of the aforementioned Pokemon can generally be stalled out with Morning Sun.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>Here are some damage calculations that demonstrate Arcanine’s impressive special bulk:</p>

<h3>Damage Calculations</h3>
<ul class="damage_calculations">
<li>Timid 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic: 43% - 50.8%</li>
<li>Timid 252 SpA Mismagius Shadow Ball: 24.5% - 29.2%</li>
<li>Timid 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb: 34.6% - 40.9%</li>
<li>Modest 252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Air Slash: 36.7% - 43.2%</li>
<li>Timid 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse: 33.1% - 39.1%</li>
<li>Timid 252 SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt: 35.2% - 41.7%</li>
<li>Bold 0 SpA Milotic Surf: 44.3% - 53.1%</li>
</ul>

<p>With his special bulk, Arcanine can avoid being 2HKOed by the some of the strongest neutral special attacks UU has to offer, provided Stealth Rock is off the field. In return, Arcanine can 2HKO or Toxic stall each of these threats while recovering his health with Morning Sun. Arcanine also serves as an excellent lure for Milotic, whom he can Toxic and stall out with Morning Sun (unless Milotic has Toxic or Rest).</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is extremely important for this Arcanine. Due to his Fire typing, Arcanine loses 25% of his health each time he switches into Stealth Rock. As a result, many of the sweepers who normally only 3HKO Arcanine are able to 2HKO him with Stealth Rock on the field. Arcanine also has problems with strong physical attackers, such as Rhyperior, Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Aggron. Thus, a physically defensive Blastoise makes a great partner since Blastoise can hit Rock- and Ground-types for super effective damage with Surf. Blastoise can also wall any physical Water-types who may otherwise cause Arcanine problems.</p>

<p>Other good teammates for this Arcanine include physical walls who can take strong Rock-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks. Leafeon, Torterra, Tangrowth, and Milotic are all excellent choices, especially since each of them has a reliable recovery move. Arcanine also dislikes any form of status, so a cleric is greatly appreciated. Thus, Leafeon is an ideal teammate; he has access to Heal Bell and, as previously mentioned, is an excellent physical wall.</p>
 
this set is good.

I was planning to fix up the entire arcanine analysis soon, including writing up all of its defensive sets. you can still do this if you want cause C&C is FCFS, though.

regardless, QC Approved 1/2
 
The HP is needed for Leftovers.

You should mention is doesn't fare too well against Milotic (Morning Sun has low PP and RestTalk still beats you). Otherwise it seems pretty good.
 
You could mention Sunny Day.
It increases the amount of health restored by Morning Sun and it weakens Water moves.
 
After reading this set i tried out will-o-wisp over extremespeed to offset the lack of physical defense this has compared to the standard arcanine. It was fun nailing azumarill and sd venusaur with a burn. Maybe it deserves a slash ?_?
 
@ whistle: thanks for the QC check. Yeah I saw that you claimed Arcanine in the index thread, but I didn't know what sets you were planning to write so I went ahead and posted this one. sorry about that. I would be happy to take over this set, though.

@ Bluewind: I mentioned that ResTalk beats it in the counters section and I'll be sure to include that if I get approval to write it. Against the standard Recover set, I'd have to disagree since Arcanine handles it quite well in my experiences. Morning Sun has only 8 PP, but Milotic has to Recover or switch out often to avoid dying from Toxic damage. I wouldn't say it's the most reliable Milo check out there but it can comfortably wall Milo for a good portion of the match.

@ Delko: Sunny Day is an interesting option, but I don't think this Arcanine really needs that extra buff against water type attacks. Sunny Day would also cost me a moveslot, probably Extremespeed, which means I would lose to Alakazam and Houndoom. I want to know what QC thinks about this though because it might have some use.

@J000: I think WoW might work as a slash. Again the loss of xspeed means it can't check Zam and Doom, but WoW lets it hit stuff like Rhyperior, Azumarill, and SD Venu. Although this set works more like a defensive pivot than a catch-all wall, I think WoW is a decent option on it.
 
I know this is a very, very, very small nitpick, but wouldn't a spread of 252 Hp/16 Atk/236 be better. It always 2hkod houndoom after SR and has a chance of 2hkoing moltres after rocks (other spread doesn't), has a chance to break subcharge lanturns subs, kos sd leafeon on average after rocks with fb, always 2hkos swellow with e speed after rocks, 2hkos zam. just some little things that can help by adding a little bit of attack.
 
Hey thanks for the spread those KOs could potentially be important, and I don't think the slight drop in SpD EVs will have much effect. Updated the OP with those EVs.
 
Great set! Just one thing, you didn't put in the ability, which actually could help out quite a bit.
Also, I don't really see how it "destroys" Weezing. Weezing has high defense, along with an immunity to Toxic. I might be missing something, so could you please clarify? Thanks.
 
Flashrider57 said:
Great set! Just one thing, you didn't put in the ability, which actually could help out quite a bit.
Also, I don't really see how it "destroys" Weezing. Weezing has high defense, along with an immunity to Toxic. I might be missing something, so could you please clarify? Thanks.
Click to expand...


Specially defensive weezing is hit on its lower defense and Arcanine is immune to wisp while also taking crap from Sludge bomb.. .though FB 2hkos I think
 
Flashrider57: thanks. The ability is Intimidate, since it helps Arcanine switch into various physical attacks. Flash Fire isn't that useful on a set like this since I'm not trying to sweep. This set destroys Weezing because Weezing can't do shit to it. Sludge Bomb is doing lol damage and while I can't 3HKO without a crit I still win since it has to sleep to stay alive.
 
i disagree with the attack evs. this is largely a personal preference issue and if i was building a team with you i would not care at all if you wanted to use attack evs; however, we are trying to "standardize" a set for many many users so i feel it should be discussed.

when it's just 16 evs on the line, the question is not so much "what specifically does this do, practically" as it is a theoretical one. the extra attack is going to help you 2hko something maybe an extra 2% of the time. the extra sdefense would help you survive a 2hko maybe 2% of the time as well. i'm probably generously overestimating. anyways, the thing is, this set is undeniably a defensive one, which means it's going to spend a lot more of its time surviving hits than trying to sweep. while the extra evs in each stat have about the same probability of changing the course of the battle when that stat is used, arcanine's special defense stat will get much more abuse over the course of a battle than its attack stat. it makes more sense to maximize the stats you KNOW you will need first.

houndoom takes a minimum of 37.1% from extremespeed with no attack, which is a 2hko with life orb - and 78.3% of houndoom ran life orb in june. lanturn loses a whopping 1 more hp with the 16 extra attack, while arcanine loses 4 more hp in return from a max satk surf by losing 12 sdef. extremespeed has a 0.524% higher chance of 2hkoing moltres with stealth rock (81 [max] roll twice with 0 attack or 82/82 + 81/81 + 82/81 + 81/82 roll with 16 attack) while you have about a 6% higher chance of getting 2hkoed by a modest air slash (I am aware modest is "bad"). the extra attack does not matter for alakazam or swellow since you 2hko both with sr (and orb for swellow) without attack while the extra attack does not allow you to guaranteed 2hko them without sr. no one is keeping leafeon in until it is in ko range for return, although i will admit you deal 1.4% more damage to it... woo.

also for the same reason I think the remaining 4 evs make more sense in defense.
 
Good points whistle. Duly noted and spread changed. Any other changes necessary qc?
 
I like this set, it is quite effective at beating many Specially-based Pokemon (like Moltres and Mismagius) 1v1 while keeping its health high with Morning Sun.

stamp3.png
 
pink is grammar edits
blue is prose edits

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Morning Sun
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[Set Comments]

<p>While Arcanine is usually seen as a sweeper because of his high Attack and Speed stats, he has all the necessary tools to function as an effective specially defensive tank. Arcanine's good HP and Special Defense, naturally high Attack and Speed, and access to a reliable recovery move, Morning Sun, allow him to safely switch into and beat many top-tier special sweepers one-on-one.</p>

<p>With maxed out HP and Special Defense stats, Arcanine becomes a formidable special tank. This Arcanine is able to switch into some of UU's strongest special attackers and eliminate them. Even with no investment in his Attack stat, Flare Blitz and ExtremeSpeed still hit hard enough to take care of physically frail sweepers such as Alakazam and Mismagius, as well as targets such as Venusaur. Toxic is Arcanine's main source of damage against walls such as Milotic and bulkier sweepers such as Moltres, both of whom Arcanine can stall out with Morning Sun. Morning Sun provides Arcanine with reliable recovery.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>Here are some damage calculations that demonstrate Arcanine's impressive special bulk:</p>

<h3>Damage Calculations</h3>
<ul class="damage_calculations">
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic: 43% - 50.8%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Mismagius Shadow Ball: 24.5% - 29.2%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb: 34.6% - 40.9%</li>
<li>Modest max SpA Life Orb Moltres Air Slash: 36.7% - 43.2%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse: 33.1% - 39.1%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt: 35.2% - 41.7%</li>
<li>Bold 0 SpA Milotic Surf: 44.3% - 53.1%</li>
</ul>

<p>With his special bulk, Arcanine can avoid being 2HKOed by the some of the strongest neutral special attacks UU has to offer, provided Stealth Rock is off the field. In return, Arcanine can 2HKO or Toxic stall each of these threats while recovering his health with Morning Sun. Arcanine also serves as an excellent lure for Milotic, whom he can Toxic and stall out with Morning Sun (unless Milotic has Toxic or Rest).</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is extremely important for this Arcanine. Due to his Fire-typing, Arcanine loses 25% of his health each time he switches into Stealth Rock. As a result, many of the sweepers who would not have been able to 2HKO Arcanine can now outspeed and 2HKO him after Stealth Rock damage. Arcanine also has problems with strong physical attackers, such as Rhyperior, Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Aggron. Thus, a physically defensive Blastoise makes a great partner since he can hit Rock- and Ground-types for super effective damage with Surf. He can also wall any physical Water-types who may otherwise cause Arcanine problems.</p>

<p>Good teammates for this Arcanine include physical walls who can take on strong Rock-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks. Leafeon, Torterra, Tangrowth, and Milotic all fit the bill and have a reliable recovery move, so they are all excellent choices. Arcanine also dislikes any form of status, so a cleric is greatly appreciated. As mentioned before, Leafeon is an outstanding physical wall and also has access to Heal Bell, so he makes an ideal teammate.</p>
Click to expand...

Great write-up! =)
 
Thanks a bunch for the proofread, Snorlaxe!

Your changes have been edited into the OP. The only issue I have is in the last sentence of the second paragraph, I said 'Arcanine can generally stall out' because some Moltres run the SubRoost set and can Sub up to block status or Toxic Arcanine in return and some Milotic have either Toxic or Rest to beat Arcanine. Also crits and Air Slash flinches have other ideas about Arcanine stalling out Milo and Tres.
 
GP Check 1/2

gp2.png



[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Morning Sun
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[Set Comments]

<p>While Arcanine is usually seen as a sweeper because of his high Attack and Speed stats, he has all the necessary tools to function as an effective specially defensive tank. Arcanine's good HP and Defense, naturally high Attack and Speed, and access to a reliable recovery move, Morning Sun, allow him to safely switch into and beat many top-tier special sweepers one-on-one.</p>

<p>With maxed out HP and Special Defense stats, Arcanine becomes a formidable special tank. This Arcanine is able to switch into some of UU's strongest special attackers and eliminate them. Even with no investment in his Attack stat, Flare Blitz and ExtremeSpeed still hit hard enough to take care of physically frail sweepers such as Alakazam and Mismagius, as well as super effective targets such as Venusaur. Toxic is Arcanine's main source of damage against walls such as Milotic and bulkier sweepers such as Moltres, both of whom Arcanine can generally stall out with Morning Sun. Morning Sun provides Arcanine with reliable recovery.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>Here are some damage calculations that demonstrate Arcanine’s impressive special bulk:</p>

<h3>Damage Calculations</h3>
<ul class="damage_calculations">
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic: 43% - 50.8%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Mismagius Shadow Ball: 24.5% - 29.2%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb: 34.6% - 40.9%</li>
<li>Modest max SpA Life Orb Moltres Air Slash: 36.7% - 43.2%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse: 33.1% - 39.1%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt: 35.2% - 41.7%</li>
<li>Bold 0 SpA Milotic Surf: 44.3% - 53.1%</li>
</ul>

<p>With his special bulk, Arcanine can avoid being 2HKOed by the some of the strongest neutral special attacks UU has to offer, provided Stealth Rock is off the field. In return, Arcanine can 2HKO or Toxic stall each of these threats while recovering his health with Morning Sun. Arcanine also serves as an excellent lure for Milotic, whom he can Toxic and stall out with Morning Sun (unless Milotic has Toxic or Rest).</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is extremely important for this Arcanine. Due to his Fire typing, Arcanine loses 25% of his health each time he switches into Stealth Rock. As a result, many of the sweepers who formerly only 3HKOed Arcanine will now be able to 2HKO him. Arcanine also has problems with strong physical attackers, such as Rhyperior, Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Aggron. Thus, a physically defensive Blastoise makes a great partner since he can hit Rock- and Ground-types for super effective damage with Surf. Blastoise can also wall any physical water types who may otherwise cause Arcanine problems.</p>

<p>Other good teammates for this Arcanine include physical walls who can take strong Rock-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks. Leafeon, Torterra, Tangrowth, and Milotic are all excellent choices, especially since each of them has a reliable recovery move. Arcanine also dislikes any form of status, so a cleric is greatly appreciated. Leafeon is an outstanding physical wall as mentioned before, and he also has access to Heal Bell, so he makes an ideal teammate.</p>
Click to expand...
Nice work. Hardly any errors at all.
 
Thanks for the check, Eo. I think the last sentence of the last paragraph is still a little awk., so I changed it to "Leafeon, as mentioned before, is an excellent physical wall and also has access to Heal Bell, making him an excellent teammate." Is that okay?
 
The reason I changed it was because it was not mentioned previously that Leafeon had Heal Bell, and the order implied that it was. I think "Leafeon, as mentioned before, is an excellent physical wall, and he also has access to Heal Bell, making him an excellent teammate." would resolve any ambiguity.
 
I think that version seems a little comma heavy and awkward. How's this: "Thus, Leafeon is an ideal teammate; he has access to Heal Bell and, as previously mentioned, is an excellent physical wall."
 
Alternative EV spread: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe? Maxing out Arcanine's HP isn't a good idea since you more SR damage every time you switch in, the same as Gyarados shouldn't max its HP in OU. 16 Spe EVs let you outspeed max speed base 55s such as Omastar and Cacturne, and also other no speed base 95s such as Uxie and Drapion. It's not Speed Creep since it is guaranteeing outspeeding a speed tier, just like Milotic invests 8 Spe to outspeed max speed base 40s like Rhyperior.
 
LR: I'm not so sure that ev spread will be that much more effective. whistle emphasized the importance of maximizing defenses in his post. speed could be an exception since it's a constant, but the pokemon that Arcanine would outspeed with the speed EVs aren't of much consequence. Outspeeding them doesn't really affect their matchup. max speed omastar is assuredly running max SpA as well, so Arcanine has no business staying in to stall it. Uxie is still going to able to do whatever it wants. Drapion and Leafeon with no speed don't threaten Arcanine. the base 55s in NU (Exeggutor, Cacturne) that would be affected don't usually run a speed boosting nature, so they are outspeed anyway. If uu c&c people like this spread better then I'm open to changing it but I'm not really a big fan. Thanks for the suggestion!
 
[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Morning Sun
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[Set Comments]

<p>While Arcanine is usually seen as a sweeper because of his high Attack and Speed stats, he has all the necessary tools to function as an effective specially defensive tank. Arcanine's good HP and Defense, naturally high Attack and Speed, and access to a reliable recovery move, Morning Sun, allow him to safely switch into and beat many top-tier special sweepers one-on-one.</p>

<p>With maxed out HP and Special Defense stats, Arcanine becomes a formidable special tank. This Arcanine is able to switch into some of UU's strongest special attackers and eliminate them. Even with no investment in his Attack stat, Flare Blitz and ExtremeSpeed still hit hard enough to take care of physically frail sweepers such as Alakazam and Mismagius, as well as super effective targets hit super effectively, such as Venusaur. Toxic is Arcanine's main source of damage against walls such as Milotic and bulkier sweepers such as Moltres; both of whom the aforementioned Pokemon Arcanine can generally be stalled out with Morning Sun. Morning Sun provides Arcanine with reliable recovery.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>Here are some damage calculations that demonstrate Arcanine’s impressive special bulk:</p>

<h3>Damage Calculations</h3>
<ul class="damage_calculations">
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic: 43% - 50.8%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Mismagius Shadow Ball: 24.5% - 29.2%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb: 34.6% - 40.9%</li>
<li>Modest max SpA Life Orb Moltres Air Slash: 36.7% - 43.2%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse: 33.1% - 39.1%</li>
<li>Timid max SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt: 35.2% - 41.7%</li>
<li>Bold 0 SpA Milotic Surf: 44.3% - 53.1%</li>
</ul>

<p>With his special bulk, Arcanine can avoid being 2HKOed by the some of the strongest neutral special attacks UU has to offer, provided Stealth Rock is off the field. In return, Arcanine can 2HKO or Toxic stall each of these threats while recovering his health with Morning Sun. Arcanine also serves as an excellent lure for Milotic, whom he can Toxic and stall out with Morning Sun (unless Milotic has Toxic or Rest).</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is extremely important for this Arcanine. Due to his Fire typing, Arcanine loses 25% of his health each time he switches into Stealth Rock. As a result, many of the sweepers who formerly normally only 3HKO Arcanine will now be are able to 2HKO him with Stealth Rock on the field. Arcanine also has problems with strong physical attackers, such as Rhyperior, Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Aggron. Thus, a physically defensive Blastoise makes a great partner since Blastoise can hit Rock- and Ground-types for super effective damage with Surf. Blastoise can also wall any physical Water-types (dumb guideline I know) who may otherwise cause Arcanine problems.</p>

<p>Good teammates for this Arcanine include physical walls who can take strong Rock-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks. Leafeon, Torterra, Tangrowth, and Milotic are all excellent choices, especially since each of them has a reliable recovery move. Arcanine also dislikes any form of status, so a cleric is greatly appreciated. Thus, Leafeon is an ideal teammate; he has access to Heal Bell and, as previously mentioned, is an excellent physical wall.</p>
Click to expand...

GP Check 2/2

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Changes are in bold and removals in red. Nice analysis.
 
Thanks for the check, jc104! I think this should be ready for uploading, unless there are any additional comments/concerns.
 
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