Baton Pass in D/P

Obi's Stall and DT's Hail teams have rekindled my love of theme teams all over again and I've been thinking recently about a good, old niche to bring back up for discussion.

On Shoddy, it seems to me that very few people are abusing 'the most hated theme of ADV' in lieu of the simpler sweep or weather abuse. Additionally, I haven't seen any talk about Baton Pass in D/P for months. It seems to me that very little changed for BP, so why the lack of teams? Were they not seemingly everywhere not too long ago?...


First, I will try to cover what is left over from ADV BP and do a bit of refresh for anyone who missed ADV.
Then, I'll look for what is new in D/P BP and relevance to D/P changes in general.
Lastly, I'll see if I can come up a semblance of a DPBP team and request criticisms for this whole effort in general. Is it worth it? Is it still scary?

A quick list of pokemon that learn baton pass and are ~useful (please comment immediately if I missed anything in this integral step!):
ADV:
-Zapdos, Absol, Eeveelutions (seven in all), Mr.Mime, Celebi, Ninjask, Huntail/Gorebyss, Scyther/Scizor, Blaziken, Delcatty, Medicham, Mawile, Girafarig, Ariados, Smeargle.
D/P:
-Togekiss, Ambipom, Drifblim, Lopunny, Gliscor, Floatzel.


ADV.

ADV BP was marked by a team of effectively the same 6 pokemon: Ingrain Smeargle and/or Soundproof Mr.Mime to stop phazing, Ninjask, Scizor or Mawile for some semblance of physical bulk, Vaporeon for huge subs and more bulk, Celebi/Zapdos for stomping, and some generic BP recipient (hello there Medicham).

Ninjask subs, protects, or drypasses to the phaze stopper to get the ball rolling with some much needed speed boosts. If the phazer could not do it's job, a switch to bulk would counter the opponent's switch to some generic sweeper. Acid Armor, CM, or Iron Defense and a sub would be picked up along the path to put cloture to an opponent's sweep. Lastly, some Sword's Dances or CMs would be passed to the recipient of choice and the opponent would have to deal with a pokemon that would not die and was swinging off of usually in the upwards of 1000 attack. We usually saw Medicham, Marowak, something with Battle Armor to stop crits, or some generic sweep that just loved boosts (Heracross, Salamence, etc).

It was a bane. Not only was the whole process as predictable as a trainwreck, it required fairly specific counters to put the kibosh on the operation. The subs could almost never get broken and would protect the subees from every status imaginable. Worse yet, the pokemon passing were not terrible by any standards: Vaporeon, Celebi, Zapdos, Scizor, all fairly powerful in their own regard. The biggest ways to stop it were to take out the phaze-stopper, get an actual haze instead of a pseudo-haze, Psych Up, Perish Song, boost your own stats faster than the opponent, or encore/trickbanding the opponent on a stat-up.

For ADV, there's already an article written on it by Obi (I believe) which is much more articulate, more accurate, and more applicable than this once-over I'm giving. Hopefully with BP on the mind, let us go onwards to April 22 of this year.


D/P.

Immediately there is the business of new attacks, pokemon, items, and abilities to cover.

Aqua Ring, Nasty Plot, Charge Beam, Heart Swap, and Stockpile are all of immediate importance as they are the "new" SD and CM. Aqua Ring is helpful for making yourself more invincible, Nasty Plot makes all the difference in the world for people who want to BP a special sweeper, Charge Beam is a booster and attack that you can throw on something to help the chain and keep pressure on the opponent at once, Heart Swap could possibly mean the death of BP (though I do hope Manaphy goes and stays uber), and Stockpile is the new Cosmic Power that a ton of people have in their movepool.

The pokemon mentioned above are all a great boon to BP as well:
-Togekiss, the bulky special wall/sweeper that can pass Nasty Plot, heal itself, and flinchhax from here to Barcelona.
-Ambipom, the speedy physical/mixed sweeper with SD, Agility, and NP in addition to Technician.
-Drifblim, the odd-typed, semi-defensive ghost with an AMAZING ability and subs bigger than the Grand Canyon.
-Lopunny, faster than base 100s, immune to trickbanding (and can do some of her own), encorer, and agilipasser.
-Gliscor, a physical wall that can stop Heracross! God damn! Comes equipped with great type and stats and can SD or Agility.
-Floatzel, lolKristyHaruka<3. BU passer and generally amazing sweeper with Taunt on the side.
-And two new Eeveelutions, namely Leafeon who can take a few physical hit and pass a SD or Glaceon who can scare off anything that doesn't resist her Ice Beam.

Focus Sash deserves a BOOK for all its uses in DPBP and elsewhere. Imagine a hold item that promises your Smeargle will always get that Ingrain off or that your Ninjask can pass a boost without fear. Just in general, Focus Sash adds a whole new level of flexibility to the BP chain and removes a large part of the risk. Everyone here is painfully aware of Focus Sash's utility by now so I'll leave it at this. Expert Belt and Life Orb allow your attackers to keep more pressure on the opponent while still allowing for stat-ups and BP. Shed Shell allows you to avoid whatever traps your opponent may have left.

Lastly, Filter makes Mr. Mime ~more tanky, Unburden makes Drifblim fly, Klutz was already mentioned for Lopunny, Magic Guard could potentially give you a Clefable that is immune to poison and leech seed, Bibarel's Simple AND Unaware have their own can of worms for BP, and Super Luck could dent through your armor. Sometimes I wonder if Gamefreak knew how powerful BP teams are.


TEAM.

First and foremost, let me express my concern for why DPBP is on the decline. Nowhere up above did I mention Blissey, Cresselia, or Skarmory. BP's number one concern in my eyes is that, outside of Celebi, Vaporeon, and Gliscor, there is a painful lack of defense on both the physical and special fronts. That's not to say that it wasn't the same case in ADV, only that with a lot of the new sweepers (and most importantly, the new MIXED sweepers), it is made painfully more obvious.

The emotion is dour but must be ultimately ignored if any progress is to be made in this venture. Luckily, there are new tricks that remedy the defensive situation enough to make it manageable (hello Focus Sash, hello Stockpile, hello Roost).


So what does BP need? Let's use the ADV formula and see how far it gets us in the form of roles. Well, first decide if you want to go physical or special, here I'll be using physical.

Ninjask (Sub, Xscissor, SD) is still around and is a very popular lead. Jolteon is likewise a very common lead that can pass a sub or some speed. Neither will betray the BP secret and both can dent the opponent pretty well. Ambipom is a pretty terrific starter as well and can get the party started with SD. I enjoy Ninjask not just for passing speed and SD better than everyone, but for drawing out the common phazer switch.

Ingrain Smeargle with Focus Sash (Ingrain, Spore, Endeavor) remains the best bet to stop phazing and provide some much needed healing to the team. Assuming the opponent switches to their phazer on the same turn you switch to Smeargle, the opponent is left with the same painful dilemma as in ADV. If you stay in to kill him, you risk his ingrain and his subsequent BP down the chain. Therefore you must be able to 2HKO and be faster than him, not exactly common among phazers. If you switch, he can Spore and get an ingrain for free (worst bet by far). For the purposes of this mental exercise, I'll make him the first actual member of the team.

Soundproof Mr.Mime got a hit in D/P with Skarm gaining Whirlwind. Stopping Perish Song is still nice and considering most PSong users still hit on the Special Defense side (Celebi, Mismagius, Lapras). Luckily, Obi is the only person I've seen actually use PSong, so for now I'm safe.

Taunting Floatzel is another alternative to stop phazers (or a secondary alternative).

For the position of bulk, a few names immediately spring up. Scizor is still steel-type as always and can pass his Iron Defense, SD, or Agility. Gliscor has amazing defense and immune to bolt/eq and can pass his SD or Agility. Gorebyss can Barrier or Amnesia (though her survivability is questionable). Vaporeon can Acid Armor and Aqua Ring (oh my).
For secondary bulk, Drifblim makes him appearance being able to Stockpile, Sub down to a berry boost, and baton pass the sub/berry/cm/stockpile with his unburden boost. Togekiss can take quite a few special attacks and Roost them off, put up a light screen, and buff your offense.

As of right now, Gyarados, the dragons, Weavile, Gengar, T-tar, Heracross, and Infernape are the offensive front of nearly every team and my most immediate worry. Vaporeon is the perfect bulky water for the job with Acid Armor, Surf, Ice Beam here along with Gliscor with SD, Roost, and EQ, the two covering each other's weaknesses very well.

The only thing lacking is sp.def and resistances which can be helped by a CM Celebi (CM, Energy Ball, Psychic) best.

Lastly, there needs to be a recipient. Electivire is a decent choice thanks to its ability to hit nearly everything SE. Anything with Battle Armor or something that blocks crit gets a definite nod. Cradily or Octillery can remove the need for ingrain at the end. Clefable can be immune to all side-damage and carry Boltbeam for those inclined. Most of the time, it will not matter who you put here since it will ideally be invincible and with an attack through the roof.

Medicham, Marowak, Azumarill, and Bibarel stand out for the very specific reason of getting huge really fast. Simple Bibarel in particular, for the reason that after one SD he has 1180 attack (that's a truism) and that a part of everyone wants to sweep with a Bibarel. He's easy to set up (one Acid Armor and he has ~700 or more defense) and double STAB Waterfall/Return is not resisted. Hyper Fang on switches so you don't have to worry about a Water Absorb or a Normal Resister is another amazing ability. And best of all, you can run Taunt as his last ability to stop Perish Song. What can I say, this set is the reason I wanted to make this whole... damn... thread. <3


Alright Smogon! There's more I want to cover but anymore and I risk the three people still reading to finally leave. Please comment away and end this wall-text madness.



tl;dr: Baton Pass teams in the realm of Hail, Sand, Stall, and Trick Room? Anything new in D/P or is it the same old stuff from ADV? Did he just say sweep with a Bibarel?
 
Aside from Trick Room, I think people are afraid of the improved Taunt, especially since Gyarados is more common than it was in ADV. But it only takes one creative soul to break out a solid BP team before a bunch of copycats join the deluge.
 
But it only takes one creative soul to break out a solid BP team before a bunch of copycats join the deluge.
I mentioned DT and Obi at the top for that explicit reason. I'm trying stuff on Shoddy right now (sadface at no Bibarel though) but the pace is slow.

Gyarados Taunt has bugged me and nearly forced Jolteon over Ninjask, or hell, I've tried SR a few times on the lead to deny it. The good news is that a BP team isn't dead the first time it gets taunted. It takes a flexible person, but it is possible to recover and start the chain up again.
 
The big problem with Taunt vs a BP team is that most (if not all) BP team members are going to be feeling the 4 move limitation. BP and a stat-up move is already half the moveset; then there's Substitute, recovery moves, and attacks. With all the setup and prevention moves needed on the team, the non-recipient Pokemon aren't likely to carry attacks (they are probably EV'd defensively and won't pack much of a punch anyway).

One of my favorite ways of countering ADV BP teams was to wait for them to Ingrain before switching in DDTar or DDGyara. If their Pokemon had no attacks, they would be screwed. But shoehorning attacks onto every Pokemon is going to drastically limit the effectiveness of the chain.
 
IIRC Drifblim's Unburden boost is NOT passed with Baton Pass.

edit: lol but oh yeah, sweeping with a Bibarel makes you feel so good inside.
 
I have one pokemon, 4 syllables. Hippowdon.

Here's why:

He's a fairly common lead that usually packs AT LEAST stealth rock. Many also carry roar. BPers are few and far between- if you think a jolteon or ninjask isn't packing BP in this gen when you see them as a lead, you are probably dreaming. That's all I've seen when I see these pokemon. That's fine and dandy, I suppose, cause there's always scizor.

Cept that I ALWAYS switch to a phaze/hazer when I see him.

Get a little bit of a trend? Even Smeargle people see, know there's a spore and then suspect a BP of some kind (usually with ingrain). If more pokemon could use BP I think the game would be alot better in this respect. As of right now, I'm not sure, but there is only less than 15 (right?) pokemon that use BP and even less than use(d) it effectively. People see it from a mile away, it's as predictable as a Protect/hypnosis yanmega with speed boost when you see him as a lead. I wish you luck in countering this, but honestly BP is probably one of the most predictable things in the game.
 
Wouldn't Bibarel have only 885 attack after one Swords Dance?

(1 SD without Simple) x 295 attack -> 1 SD x 295 attack -> 2 x 295 attack -> 590 attack

(1 SD x Simple) x 295 attack -> 2 SD x 295 attack -> 3 x 295 attack -> 885 attack
 
IIRC Drifblim's Unburden boost is NOT passed with Baton Pass.
No, but it does make passing easier since he has 2x speed for the pass.
People see it from a mile away
Which is why I'm fishing for anecdotal evidence, new tricks. Like I said, it's as obvious as a trainwreck. It either works or it doesn't most of the time.
Wouldn't Bibarel have only 885 attack after one Swords Dance?
Yes. I doubled the double. >:E
 
Hmm, instead of devoting a whole team though, I could see just Nijask + Bibarrel doing some awesomeness. I mean, Ninjask has no prob setting up 1 swords dance and 1-2 speed boosts if it uses sash against most leads (with quite a few who could screw him admittedly). Send in bibarrel (whose defense aren't terrible and could also run sash) and you could probably take down a few enemy pokes pretty easily before Bibarrel goes caput.
 
The biggest problems I'm having right now is getting around Obi's Stall team which like 99% of Shoddy is apparantly using right now. Hippo is a huge problem as was mentioned. Perish Song is likewise annoying.
 
Yeah, like ChouToshio said Ninjask+Bibarel would be lethal. Just Imagine:

Sash Ninjask w/ SD, Protect, Baton Pass, Filler
Dance first turn. Protect then pass to:
Sash Simple Bibarel w/ Waterfall, Return, Super Fang, Filler
Then, own the other team.
 
Obi's Stall and DT's Hail teams have rekindled my love of breaking the stall team
I corrected your post.

Baton pass teams have an inherent advantage over stall teams. A good switch to an anti-phazer (Mr. Mime or Ingrain Smeargle) before the Toxic Spikes are down and you've won.

Note: these are just ideas. I've been experimenting with a few things and my current opinions on the matter, and certainly are not "facts". I attempt to back them up by facts, but feel free to disagree, but I request that you please post why.

Either way, I feel that it is important to develop a philosophy behind each tactic. So here's what I think:

1. Attack / Sp. Attack is not nearly as important when you are receiving swords dances or nasty plots. The key is to get over the "threshold". Once you two-hit KO most walls with a high accuracy attack, there is no stopping you. It doesn't matter if you OHKO them really, because the wall can't really hurt you in the general case, and the wall can't really phaze you if you've set up correctly. You need a two-hit KO to break recover / softboiled of course.

Additionally, while it takes 2x the amount of attack stat to turn a two-hit KO into a OHKO, it requires only 1.5x the amount of attack stat to turn a 3-hit KO into a 2-hit KO. Similarly, it only takes +33.33% of the attack to turn a 4-hit KO into a 3-hit KO. (similarly, it only takes 33.33% more defense to turn a 3-hit KO into a 4-hit KO. Which is why walls tend to max out everything)

And with a pokemon with a huge attack stat (say, Garchomp), the difference between 0 Atk EVs and max attack / Adamant is only ~25% difference. Even with a certain low attack pokemon with an ability that essentially doubles its attack stat as well as the EVs (Medicham / Marrowak) the loss in attack is only ~35%. Certainly, Attack EVs are much more important with these pokemon with lower attack / ivs. Either way, if you successfully baton pass a swords dance, you've made up for it in power, as opposed to your anchor getting OHKOed by a critical or something stupid like that.

2. Given #1, it is important for the anchor of your team to be able to receive a few hits. That means you gotta have a baton pass to defensive stat-ups, or you need a decent amount of defense on your anchor. Turning a 2-hit into a 3-hit KO or a 3-hit into a 4-hit KO is all you gotta do.

3. An anchor must sweep effectively. This means you must baton pass agilities / use Ninjask, or you can simply use an already fast pokemon.

Thats my thoughts on the issue, and I haven't really tested it out yet... so thats that :-]

------------

Now something successful that I've been able to do...

Ambipom @ 252 Atk 252 Spd
----------
Fake-Out
Return
Nasty Plot
Baton Pass

This pokemon does what it needs to do. I have tried Nasty Plot Special Sweep Ambipom, but it just isn't powerful enough. Even with a Nasty Plot he is weaker than Specs-Starmie and Specs-Mence and his most powerful Sp. Attack is the 90 BP Swift. Sadly enough, that is precisely the power of an Adaptability Porygon-Z + Tri-Attack with Leftovers...

However, if you have a bulky anchor who uses Sp. Attacks (Milotic, Specsmence (who 2-hit KOs Blissey with Draco Meteor after a single Nasty Plot), etc. etc.) then you've got a kill or at very least something very nasty and hard to stop.

Wouldn't Bibarel have only 885 attack after one Swords Dance?

(1 SD without Simple) x 295 attack -> 1 SD x 295 attack -> 2 x 295 attack -> 590 attack

(1 SD x Simple) x 295 attack -> 2 SD x 295 attack -> 3 x 295 attack -> 885 attack

1 SD with Medicham: 480 * 2 -> 960 attack.
 
STAB Waterfall/Return are resisted by Empoleon (and only Empoleon iirc). But Superpower can correct that. :)
 
BP teams are often hard to pull off when your opponent has good Taunters. Sometimes, it's just because the switches are just too predictable. In addition to that, physical baton passers get totally stopped by Weezing.
 
For ADV, there's already an article written on it by Obi (I believe) which is much more articulate

That was me. Not everything that;s tl;dr, schematic and well thought out is written by Obi, you know.

I think the turn-count change of Taunt is overrated. Who cares if Tyranitar or Gyarados' Taunt works for 2 or 4 turns - it can just use it repeatedly, set up them Dragon Dances and come out on top against everything except Ninjask's Speed Boost anyway. What does matter is that Taunt goes through Substitutes now.

The huge amount of residual damage as well as the vast widening of attacking combo's really nerfs Baton Passers in DP. Stealth Rock alone isn't a huge deal if you only need Ninjask once or twice anyway, the problem comes when it's paired with Sand Stream, Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes to make life for the rest of the team hell. I can't count the amount of times I've needed my Vaporeon at 100% health in Advance on 20 hands.

The physical/special split generally sucks for Baton Pass teams. It didn't have that big of an impact in the general standard metagame, but for Baton Passers all these new attacking typings hurt a lot. In Advance, you had 90% of the physical attackers covered if you had a Normal resist and a bulky Water - Baton Pass teams nicely followed this with Scizor and Vaporeon all the time. In DP, that won't work. Flare Blitz/Thunderpunch Infernape, for example, can OHKO Scizor and will always 2HKO Vaporeon with just a Swords Dance.

Special side, Advance basically had Electrics and that's about it, so you gambled on Umbreon to pull off something funny, or you used Celebi, or Mr. Mime just tanked. DP? Lucario, Togekiss, PorygonZ, Infernape, Azelf, so many new attacking typings - who the hell used a Fighting/Flying combo in RS, let alone on a Special Attacker? Yeah, that was impossible.

Trick Room is also a factor that screws up BP teams, but it'd be the least of my worries when you look at all the above problems.
 
I made a somewhat-successful (read: not really) simple BP team once. Smeargle with Sash and Agility - NP - Spore - Pass. If opponent isn't a taunter or phazer, Agility. If you took damage, pass, if not SD. Spore something on the way out if you want, and Wish and slow U-turning Jirachi can help it try again.

Scizor works the same way for slot 2, Metagross receives raw Agility and Medicham can receive (and repass) Agility/SD. PoryZ loves Agility and NP, and Togekiss can work to make PoryZ usable after Smeargle's down. Unfortunately, it never really worked good.
 
That was me. Not everything that;s tl;dr, schematic and well thought out is written by Obi, you know.
I honestly forgot the author and the articles are down so I couldn't check. I'm sorry for the misquote.


The more I think about it and toy with it, it seems like most people incorporate BP into their teams in much smaller amounts than a large chain and to much greater efficacy.

The common stall teams can outstall BP thanks to that residual damage and the common sweeper teams can wall-bust through the walls that do get BP since they aren't as hardy as Bliss or Cress, points I didn't elaborate on nearly well enough. What may take three or four turns of baton pass can be accomplished nearly by just a SD Garchomp, to make matters worse.

Regardless, I'm still trying to think of a way around it, finding it hard to believe that BP power is relegated to the predictable and the unmanageable. If I get stuck in the ADV BP mindset (as is obvious in my original post), I'm doomed to failure.


EDIT: And as for focus sash, stall teams have 99 different ways to ruin it. Smeargle is still nearly the same unsafe bet as it was before.
 
Here's why BP teams don't work and aren't popular:
  • you start with a BP pokemon like ninjask and your opponent switches in a phazer.
  • there's nothing you can do except switch out and try to bring smeargle in to spore and ingrain. Hopefully as soon as possible in the battle because your pokemon are pretty much useless for any form of offense by themselves.
  • the turn that you manage to ingrain, the opponent brings in something that hits hard and hits fast.
  • smeargle dies and your team loses to phazing.
Before you say sash, sandstorm is too popular. Not to mention hail, sr, spikes.
 
The key with Focus Sash is pulling it off before Sandstream, Stealth Rock and all these other "lol trying to pull off something without Leftovers? you'll die"-reply-triggers are in. I've actually been raped on Shoddy once by a Baton Pass team led by Memento Jumpluff followed by Smeargle, though I didn't have a phazer so I kinda deserved that anyway.

I honestly forgot the author and the articles are down so I couldn't check. I'm sorry for the misquote.

It's ok.
 
Nope, it's near impossible to pull off a BP team consistently nowadays. Earlier like 4 months ago, I was using one fine and dandy, but I'm pretty sure people have gotten smarter.

These are things you that you probably cannot account for with a BP team, especially a combination of them:

Choice Scarf Heatran
Choice Scarf Gengar
Choice Scarf Heracross
Sleep Talk Heracross
Choice Band Machamp
Infernape
Mixed Life Orb Tyranitar
Choice Band Weavile
Phsyical Lucario
Perish Song (Random Pokemon)
Blizzard+Bolt in Hail
Choice Scarf PorygonZ
Choice Specs PorygonZ
Aforementioned Trick Room
Potential Gravity teams
Choice Band'd U-Turns
Multiple Focus Sashers

All of these, and combinations of, will pretty much annoy the shit out of you and will most likely make you lose, as they still have a lot more Pokes. With the introduction of Choice Scarf and Focus Band, there's just too much unpredictibility to account for.

Also you'll probably just end up missing like 4 times in a row against a Bright Powder Garchomp in the end.
 
I've been juggling around the idea of Aqua Ring and Crithax BP teams, playing around in D/P made me realise just how effective how easy crits are to abuse with Focus Energy getting the boost it got and how non-conventional BP's seem to catch people off guard more.

At the moment BP teams are predictable and counters can be completely unpredictable so it just may be something that relies on luck as heavily as crits may be useful. On the other hand it begs the question why you don't just BP Swords Dance...thats probably my non-sensical novelty side coming up with this.
 
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