Resource BBP Bug and Feedback Thread - Generation 9 Edition!

Feedback post for various things I have been thinking. None of them are particularly time sensitive so consider or not at your leisure.

Tech Pokemon spending tech on send in not send out:
It is sad that bringing a tech pokemon limits your team comp in a way that mega stones and z crystals do not. You are pretty much obliged to bring any tech mon you send in and it means you can't use dynamax or have opportunistic z crystals in your bag.
Especially with the backpack size increases it isn't clear why megastones only consume tech on send out in comparison. 3 people this league had access to both tech pokemon and mega stones, and all 3 of them sent mega stones instead of tech pokemon.
To be clear I think the way mega stones work is actively preferable, rather than just complaining that it is stronger, I think making mega stones work like tech pokemon would make the game less fun by making team comps less flexible.

Life Orb seems slightly too generalist
Life orb seems like it often edges out other more specialised items for pokemon. You could bring things like berserk gene, throat spray, expert belt, or you could just bring life orb and it will be as good or better as these other options on every pokemon and be a more flexible bag slot.
I wonder if it would be more interesting if it was funneled into being even more of a damage for life loss trade, and be +4 power in return for 3 damage taken per step. This would make it 1 life worse per turn on standard users, but still useful if you really just want reliable extra damage, for example finishing off low hp enemies, or to use on specialist mons like braviary-h with sheer force.

League sub reffing
League games going to time sucks and is quite anti climactic. Maybe instead of trying to get better tie breaker rules the solution is having it happen less often. what if anyone could just declare they are sub reffing any league round that is at least 24h since the last player has ordered. This is less jc for the judge, but 1. there are other equally good sources of jc per round since the changes to the jc economy and 2. having games actually finish seems like it is worth someone who is being slow losing a few jc in return for having to ref less rounds.

Byes in league
Honestly 11th hour 11th player to this league circuit was really funny, but it also sucks to think you are doing league and then get kicked for odd players at the last minute. Quite a few players are willing to play or not to even out the numbers, so I feel like we should be heavily encouraging players to sign up with a decent amount of time left on the clock, so other people can choose to adjust and even the numbers.
I suggest that if there are an odd number of players the last person who signed up is the player who gets a bye, and I expect it would rarely actually come to this since if there were a few days to adjust, someone likely would creating an even number of players.

Brock feels like a bit of a trap for new players right now. They are just as hard per pokemon as 12xp sims, but they only give 8xp. It is also very unclear what players are meant to do with 8xp at level 1. Level 2 or 3 8xp fights make a lot of sense since often you gain 12 xp from other fights, but what are you meant to do with level 1 8xp?
I would consider raising brock to 12xp and costing him appropriately for being 2/3'rds of a standard level1 realgam, so his role is for people who only want 2 pokemon leveled and a faster battle.

JC economy flash and raids
flashes are insanely jc efficient since they give them same rewards no matter how many pokemon people bring (so people bring 1). JC is meant to be a way of making sure that people do an appropriate amount of reffing such that people can find refs when they want to play and the game functions without relying on charity from people reffing things for rewards they do not need.

When people ref a lot of flashes it inflates the jc economy. everyone has a lot of jc to start raids or realgams or more standard casuals without anyone actually reffing these raids or realgams or casuals to get this jc.
Raids and battle tower are the big losers of this, where their jc rewards are not enticing in comparison to flashes so they simply don't get reffed unless someone is feeling like taking one for the team.
Suggestions, casuals including flashes give 2jc to the ref per pokemon involved up to a max of 6, since 6 seems to be the intended balance point for the work of reffing a 3 vs 3 battle. Note last time this was brought mulitple people said they were absolutely willing to ref a flash for 2 jc, since it is still easy jc for often 1 round of work.
Raids could cost more jc and give more jc. If the number of people who want to raid is consistently higher than the amount who want to ref it, then same as any other economics the cost can be adjusted to reach closer to equilibrium.
+3 jc cost to all raids, +3 jc rewards to all raids.
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  • tech pokemon - ambivalent, seems like a great long term change but short term this buffs our strongest players to the disadvantage of everyone else
  • life orb - agreed
  • league subreffing - faster league rounds is very good
  • byes - agree that something should be done, if we aren't willing to make byes give win rewards the above seems as good an idea as any
  • brock - 12exp maybe a bit much, maybe 10exp? 12 is still better than 8 though. poor fazzie. one particularly sad thing is that if you win brock and then challenge eg shauna and win you waste 1exp (because you can't level to 3 from a lv1 realgam).
  • jc economy - strongly agreed but you all know that. I'm not sure if we'd be willing to do this but I'd be tempted to do case by case jc rewards for raids (guzzlord is fine as is, loyal three could reward twice as much and I wouldn't ref it)
I think tech mons working like that is not a big deal most of the time, being forced to use one specific pokemon might not be great but in normal play it seems pretty reasonably balanced imo. It's a lot worse in this specific League Circuit, because if you bring a tech mon then either you're locked into using that mon for that slot, making you effectively down 2 sendins and losing you a lot more flexibility than you otherwise would have, or you're playing down a tech, which is a huge disadvantage. I'm not convinced it needs to be changed, I think it's fine to have one league circuit where specific tech options are worse than others.

I haven't got to play very much with new Life Orb yet but it doesn't seem super overtuned to me? The thing with generalist damage items is there will always be a strongest option, and I think it's fine for Life Orb to fill that role. That being said, I think there is a strong argument for WeakPol on a lot of mons, since either you go +32 on damage or your opponent avoids hitting you SE, either of which is very beneficial in a lot of matchups, especially for squishy mons that do lots of damage. I think it's rather unreasonable to compare LO to stuff like EBelt, Throat Spray, and Berserk Gene, 3 of (in my opinion) the worst items in the game, and determine that LO is overpowered as a result. I think it is perfectly reasonable on specific mons or when considering specific strategies to prefer things like Shell Bell, Metronome, or Power items to LO, and that's not even touching on Choice items or Flame/Toxic Orb.

I fully agree with the comments about League Circuit and don't have anything to add there.

Brock it mostly just feels like there's no real reason to run it? Like the 2v2 sims have both the worst Exp:JC and Exp:time ratios of any sims, and you can't even make the argument that it saves time getting mons to level 2 quickly because it doesn't get you to level 2. Additionally, while its very possible to end at like Lv3 2-3 Exp and want to use an 8 Exp sim to quickly push the mon to 4 or win a 12 Exp level 1 sim and want to quickly push a couple mons to 3, the only times I've seen where people have ended up at level 1 2-3 Exp were back when progression was based on number of mons KOed instead of HP%. This results in there just being no reason to play it at all.

I feel like it's better to just wait and see how the new JC changes affect things rather than rapidly making changes tbh. It's only been a month and pretty much all of the JC around right now was earned pre-update or through ways that didn't get changed in the update, which means we straight up don't have any info yet on how the JC changes are going to affect the economy. At this point it kind of feels like any further changes would be premature and based on feelings about the old system rather than any info about the new system. It's worth noting that flashes are way less efficient for getting you JC in real terms now than they used to be because everything else gives way more JC than it used to and flashes are unchanged.
Tech Pokemon: Agreed.

Life Orb: Soft agreement. A slight nerf to Life Orb's damage/recoil ratio could be reasonable, but my perspective on this issue is that Life Orb isn't just the best damage-boosting Item; it's virtually the only good damage-boosting Item left. Most other Items in Life Orb's category are too niche or weak to justify their place in one's Backpack, and they often benefit only a single Pokemon or Move on their user's team in a given battle. I'd prefer to buff Life Orb's competition before looking at nerfs.

League: Good ideas.

I'm abstaining from discussing Brock and the new economy because my experience with those topics is insufficient to fairly pass judgment.
flashes are unchanged
Battle Tower gives you more resources than before now that you get 1/2 the battle level + regular rewards.

-I don't have experience with LC or Tech

-Life Orb I don't have experience using, but facing it is ok. Its not overbearing, just your generic ol' more damage item. Makes my E-Belts and such sad. Personal preference is the hoops you have to jump through to use something creative (Metronome, Shell Bell, Macho Brace, etc) feels rewarding. It probably does to some extent, but when the strategy is "deal damage" and theres an item that does that at a cost of roughtly 2-3% of HP per attack, feels kinda bad to use other things with competitive intent.

-The level 1 sims have their purpose, just not at level 1 unless you goof vs Shauna. I can see the purpose for like, avoiding the raid queue by getting that last little bit of EXP to get to the next level. If I face Realgam and goof it for partial exp, hell yeah I'm gonna try Brock/Mustard/Guzma because it's supposed to be faster. I see them as insurance runs rather than starting runs. There may be a problem because I can only do 1 realgam at a time, and why would I waste that realgam on a "short" run when I could throw those mons (3 instead of 2) into a raid and take another full realgam.

-JC costs went up, along with JC yield, for everything except battler tower AT FIRST. Then there was the "more TC the higher your battle's level" update, while the JC Cost stayed the same. Battle Tower's JC Cost (along with Realgam TC/RC rewards) hasn't increased in the new patch era. I think casuals going from 2 JC cost to 3 JC cost is constent with the general inflation of resources, while not putting off casual battles much, and specifically putting of spamming those low effort high frequency battles. If I'm gonna pay 3 JC we better be doing P2 or 3.
Upper Hand has a combo level (2) but lacks combo classes. It actually completely lacks an entry in the DAT's combo page. I think this has also caused the combo finder tab of the profile generator to bug out with it (it won't even accept entering the name of the move, unlike something like Rest where it will but will show n/a), even though the profile generator itself will hand out Upper Hand.
Trapping Terminology Inconsistency:
All the trapping moves (block, fairy lock, ingrain, etc) reference a condition called "Trapped", but the Conditions tab calls it "Trapping".
Personally I prefer the trapped term because the ctrl+f is distinct from partial trapping

Re: Circuit byes
I think having it be a race to sign up is not necessarily correct but last-minute odd signups are definitely not it. I like the proposed solution of last person who signs up is the bye, but I believe that should be limited to the last 1-2 days of the signup window. The current bye rules seem good for cases where everyone signs up with plenty of time to spare.

Re: Flashes
I wonder if these simply don't need to be creating JC at all. I don't think they need to be destroying it per se, but they probably don't need to be creating 2 per. 1v1s in particular can be egregiously fast, as in most cases you only fight 1 full round with another half round if it doesn't end.

Re: Brock
I don't think Brock serves any sort of purpose at all at his current reward point. The claim seems to be that he is faster and/or easier, but he's objectively slower at providing exp than the other level 1 realgams.
You can get 8 xp for 3 mons from the others by KOing 2 mons.
That's the same number of KOs for the same exp vs Brock, and for one less pokemon at boot.
That isn't even factoring in the fact that it's generally easier to guarantee killing 2/3 mons than it is to win against 2/2 mons.
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I think the current state of Sticky Barb is oppressive and I don't understand why it was buffed to the stratosphere in the patch; it was already a commonly played item as is.
I do think that making the barbs stick is interesting, but it needs some drawback other than "you have to click a physical attack" in a game when that's already largely the best thing you can be doing.

The existing counterplay is "use a consumable" - but most consumables either only last one round (which struggles in the new half-start meta) or have conditions you can't meet on round one before getting (possibly at priority) Barbed away (for example, pinch berries).

"Use a Mega" is a solution, but not a very fair one, given how few people even have the option (and in general I don't think "a generic item with no drawbacks" should require tech to beat).

- Only apply Barb status if an item was destroyed
- Drop Barb at end of round.
- Bring back damage to holder over time

I think it's still playable even with all of these nerfs; personally I'd apply the first two and not the third, but you can mix and match however probably.
Re: Flashes
I wonder if these simply don't need to be creating JC at all. I don't think they need to be destroying it per se, but they probably don't need to be creating 2 per. 1v1s in particular can be egregiously fast, as in most cases you only fight 1 full round with another half round if it doesn't end.
Hmm, this makes me wonder what would happen if JC payout was per each round reffed...


heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
if putting them here leads to a decrease in (everyone's, not particularly yours) repeat complaints, please put them here. they're more useful here in a nice checklist, than in discord casting a cloud over multiple days of conversation.

let that be your "forum or discord?" measure, if it helps.
Yeah, I know Encore hasn't been allowed to be strong since Gen VII, but the move's purpose and identity are tied to its use as an "'ignore substitution' button." Encore would be pointless if it could be overridden by substitutions.

DAT - Active, Inactive, and Unselected Pokemon:
I think the terminology used for denoting unselected Pokemon is slightly nebulous. Pokemon can be explicitly or implicitly selected during the course of a match, and all remaining Pokemon on a player's team become unselected once the selection size limit is reached; however, until this happens, Pokemon in reserve are neither selected nor unselected.
It is maybe worth bringing up that recoveries and chills are not parallel in the 1.3 match rules, but 5.2a just has chills reference recoveries.

[1.3] Match Rules:
  • Recovery Count - Default: 2.
    Must be a positive integer or zero. Specifies how many times per match a Pokemon can heal with an effect as a Recovery.
  • Chill Count - Default: 5.
    Must be a positive integer or zero. Specifies how many times per match a Pokémon can use the Chill Command.
[5.2a] Recoveries and Chills
  • During battle, each Pokemon has two resources that limit their capacity to restore large amounts of HP or of Energy. The battle's Match Rules will specify how many Recoveries and how many Chills each Pokemon are allotted
  • When a Pokemon heals HP "as a Recovery", it means they heal that HP only if they have 1 or more remaining Recovery count, and as they do so, their Recovery count is reduced by 1
  • When a Pokemon heals Energy "as a Chill", it means the same as above, except with the Pokemon's remaining Chill count.

How many times you can use chill is not the same thing as heal that HP only if they have 1 or more recovery left. I think the version in 1.3 is better, as I think it's fine to allow stuff like Rest and Pain Split without the healing if the user has no recovery available. However, allowing chill with no chills left allows the user to essentially do nothing for no en, which is supposed to be splash (1 en)'s niche I believe.
The DAT still contains the old data for Z-Attacks. This one is probably not a problem but I wanted to mention it.
The DAT also contains Dynamax moves with the text (A Dynamax Pokemon's [...] become this Max Move). I believe the point of recent Dynamax changes was for that to not forcibly happen, but that should probably be changed before someone (other than F) gets Dynamax mons, to avoid confusion.
(New player here, and recently been helping my friend get into the game as well.)

The new player experience is exceedingly out of wack.

Problem 1: Brock. New players get 3 starters, then are told to go to Realgam Tower to level them up. They see the data page and hey - Brock is in the top-left, the first trainer of the match. He's also the first gym leader of the first game, and he's b3p2, perfect for someone that only has 3 mons. It's not a leap to say that most new players assume that Brock is intended as the first Realgam you should do, except that's incredibly wrong and a mistake.

A: Brock gives 8 EXP. It means even if they do win vs Brock, they won't have enough EXP to level their mons.
B: The XY rivals give 12 EXP. It means you're likely to gain more EXP here than vs Brock, even if you do worse.

Most players would expect they should wait to pick up a B4P3 game until they have 4 mons to bring, but that's just wrong and they should just bring 3 mons to the XY rivals rather than go to Brock.

Problem 2: Starters. They are not enough. At all. I really like the idea of starting with 3 mons and do a B3P1 match, but after that, things start going a bit sour. All of the content in the game is geared towards players having a pool of mons and selecting from them the ones that match the best against the raid or realgam you're up against. This breaks down entirely if you only have 3 or 4 mons. It makes raids essentially impossible and realgams much much harder.

For the vast, vast majority of new players they pick the starters without really knowing much about how the game works, much less about what mons are good or bad. This means often there's gonna be a dud in their team, be it because it has bad 4x weaknesses or it's a mon that only works at high levels or it's just a bad mon This means that, in order to gain new mons you must spam...

Problem 3: Flash games. It's the only content you can even do, and due to being new to the game and having bad mons they will likely just be losing over and over - assuming both players aren't just spamming attacks to intentionally get it over as fast as possible. And you need 4 TC to adopt a new pokemon and get it to level 1, meaning you either do a BXP3 match with all your pokemon (less likely) or you do two BXP1 matches (more likely), contributing to the flash JC inflation problem.

Any fix to the flash problem needs to then find another way for new players to get new mons to properly fight Realgams and Raids. You basically have to hop into flash games and spam them a few times to get your 4rth and 5th mon & some items to then properly be able to play realgams and raids.

So, to summarize:
Problem 1: The way everything is layout makes it seem like Brock is the place to go for your first Realgam. This is not the case at all.
Problem 2: Even once you do know where to go, your mons are unlikely to be good, synergetic or well-matched against the level 1 content.
Problem 3: That means new players are forced to spam flash games, which is both not very fun and contributes to the JC problem.
I believe that the following sub does not work:

[when Pokemon flinches] If able, begin using X~Y~Z.
A pokemon that is flinching cannot attempt any actions, so can't receive an order to use X.
Therefore the sub is illegal because "In all cases, a result clause that would give a Pokemon an order to use an action that they cannot attempt is instead just illegal."

I don't believe we've been playing/reffing it this way. Could we get confirmation if that's how we should be handling it?

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