Metagame BDSP NU (Mesprit Ban @ Post #111)

[master oden]

I gotta disagree with this post a bit. I've been theorizing a lot with Whiscash after struggling against it a lot on ladder, and it has a legitimate niche in the metagame. Because of its typing, Whiscash can solidify itself as one of the best Lanturn switch in in the tier, and although the lack of Toxic really sucks, it still has the movepool to put in work, whether with a bulky DD Rest set, offensive DD, or just a normal bulky Pokemon (maybe Sub Whirlpool shenanigans?). Its defensive traits go beyond checking Lanturn, as it's a really good answer of Aero and Regirock, two Pokemon that are absolutely dominating the tier at the moment, and Electivire, Magmortar, and Typhlosion, all of which are seeing an uptick in usage. Spark isn't even so memey, as I guess smacking Pelipper for 35-40 isn't that bad on specific teams.

The concern of letting in Grass-type breakers is valid, especially in a tier so full of them, but every good team right now should be able to handle them reliable, especially since Whiscash pairs well with many Grass answers like Skuntank, Trashdam, Aerodactyl, and defensive Grass-types. All in all, I think the pros outweigh the cons here, and I think Whiscash has a ton of valid potential in the tier that I'm excited to try and actualize. Just pack a Ninetales answer along side it :)

Completely agree that Whishcash is a solid mon! Whishcash has a lot of traits that other waters would kill for, as it can setup, has a unique defensive typing, but the set that was posted was the major problem with the previous post i responded to, and i do realize i should've made that more clear.

So far, the meta is really fun, whole bunch of teams can be built, no dominant playstyle, and it's so cool to see usually mediocre pokemon in other metagames in other games be meta threats. It's really fun to use pokemon you'd never think of using most of the time.

also why is dustox on the viability list what does it do

 

[TTK]

Wanted to share this stall?/defensive team I got going despite the fact that the tier lost Weezing, which probably wouldve been amazing on more defensive teams but I wasn't using too many defensive teams pre normal ban period or even alpha. It's only lost so far to some stupid LO Raichu which just kept Volt Switch since I don't have a Gligar or any other Ground. Regardless, this should give people some ideas if they want to try running stall, because it's pretty strong I must admit.



: Skuntank is pretty solid and probably the best defogger in the tier. When you consider the limited options for removal in this tier outside of Rapid Spin (We even lost Hitmonchan), other than Gligar, Skuntank is one of the only few non-rock weak defoggers which are consistent on a game-to-game basis. Only 1 weakness, good bulk if invested, access to the significantly reduced Toxic and a good Sceptile check? Probably the best thing I can run for removal on this type of build.

: In my search for a cleric, I typed in Heal Bell and we don't have a lot left in NU. It was either Chimecho or Miltank and I decided to go Miltank because Chimecho's only useful resistance, Fighting, is easily offered by teammates and Miltank offers something that my team cannot handle too efficiently, a Fire and Ice resist. This makes sure my team isn't 6-0d by Specs Glaceon, which is ridiculous tbh, also being a decent switchin into Magmortar if it doesn't lock/select Focus Blast. You can change Rocks for Thunder Wave, I already have rocks on Regirock but it's a slight mistake on my end.

: For once, this mon isn't complete deadweight. And the first time ever, Dusknoir can fulfill a defensive role better than its pre-evolution Dusclops due to the lack of Eviolite. One of few Ghosts, this is my reliable spinblocker, which sits on Sandslash, the most common spinner. Night Shade is consistent damage and Pain Split is nice for keeping HP high. EQ is last and better than your STAB option lol so you might as well have a second attack that does decent damage to things.

: My secondary Sceptile check and my potential wincon on this team. Skuntank is all good and dandy but if it faces Mixed or SD Sceptile, it will lose so Bello saves me from that issue. Strength Sap makes it a lot bulkier on the physical side to tank hits better which it is already does a good job of and Quiver Dance boosts its good spdef stat too and if the enemy doesn't have an answer for it, it will just win the game.

: What team doesn't like having a Regirock? The best rocker in the tier, massive defence which lets it handle EVERY physical attacker in the tier. It's just a great bulky mon to have. Not much else to say about Regirock, it will always put in the work.

: Toxic Spikes is surprisingly effective and I was shocked. I usually think T spikes are complete ass but even if they have a poison, Spikes are amazing and investing in physical bulk + Intimidate makes Qwilfish capable of handling any physical offensive threat. I had Destiny Bond prior to Taunt but by the good advice of HTCL, I changed it to Taunt since some Curse Lickilicky could've caused problems for me (Yes it has Oblivious so it blocks Taunt but fsr it was Cloud Nine). Either way, slower bulky set up mons will fail against Qwilfish.

 

[glock in my toyota]

Been playing this meta a bunch for the last couple days, and having now hit #1 on ladder with a variety of teams, I'd like to share some thoughts about the current state of affairs.

: Much like Heat Rock, I think this thing undisputedly deserves a ban. NU contains a plethora of viable sweepers in Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Belly Drum Poliwrath, Golduck, Gorebyss, Relicanth, and many more. Volbeat remains the most consistent setter of Rain, throwing out Encores and T-Waves while threatening to generate momentum with slow U-Turns. Aerodactyl also serves as a solid lead, with Taunt/SR/Rain and a very hard-to-beat speed tier. While the playstyle does have it's flaws, a lack of overwhelmingly goodwater-resists (paired with the great secondary STAB options of Ludicolo / Qwilfish / Poliwrath) makes me feel like Rain is quite over-tuned at the moment. I feel like each of the few times I queued with Rain, pure water-spam was enough to overwhelm most teams.

: Probably the three best mons in the tier that aren't overwhelming/potentially broken. They are very, very consistent in their roles, and most teams just feel better when you have one of them present. I think what makes these three especially annoying is their ability to never feel truly "safe" to switch into, as you always have to fear a potential incoming T-Wave from Regi or Toxic from Skuntank, while Sandslash often just gets free rocks on switch. Probably the most reliable Hazard Setter and Hazard Removers in the tier, respectively. When the meta slows down a bit more and some of the broken offensive threats get banned or adapted around, these three could very well be the three best and most reliable mons in the tier.

: Not hard to see why Sceptile is dominating the early meta - very good speed tier, hard hitting STAB in Leaf Storm, pseudo-recovery and reliable damage output in Giga Drain, and serviceable coverage options in Focus Blast and Dragon Pulse. I think that the most overlooked set that will gain traction is Mixed LO with Earthquake, as many teams are currently crutching on SpDef Skuntank to constantly switch into Sceptile. Both its speed tier and its raw power are shaping the meta around handling it either offensively or defensively (and doing either is a very tall task). Many teams are even starting to resort to less-than-stellar mons in Meganium and Bellossom simply to answer Sceptile. One of the most restrictive mons in TeamBuilder, imo.

: Despite being probably the most one-dimensional mon in the tier, Typholosion still feels very, very strong in this meta. Reliable fire-resists are hard to come by, and the most premium and prominent example in Lanturn finds itself getting chipped down throughout games due to a lack of recovery options. In many games, Scarf Typhlosion ends up getting enough chip damage on its switchins to wreak havoc in late-game scenarios, or just punch absurd holes in teams when running Specs. It also has the Galarian Darmanitan effect, where the prominence and possibility of Scarf makes you fear that speed-tier, but the possibility of Specs changes the way you play around it until you've scouted which one it is. Not sure if Typhlosion is broken due to its one-dimensionality, but it is certainly shaping the meta in a similar way to Sceptile, as teams are starting to run Flash Fire Flareon/Ninetales, or even Corsola to consistently answer Typhlosion. Not as restrictive in TeamBuilder as Sceptile, but similar to me.

: Quite possibly the most under-represented mon on ladder right now, Tauros is a complete menace. While it suffers from slight 4MSS, the lack of switch-ins across the tier and its very solid speed-tier make it a nuisance to handle. Normal resists in general are pretty hard to come by, and the few that are easily fit onto teams take decent damage from Earthquake on the switch. Tauros sometimes struggles against offense, because its speed-tier isn't quite as strong as Sceptile's, but it wreaks havoc vs. Bulky Offense/Balance teams.

: On paper, Electivire seems lacking - its speed-tier is solid, but not in the same atmosphere as Sceptile/Tauros/Dodrio. Similarly, Electivire doesn't have the best natural bulk, and it suffers from 4MSS. In practice, however, I find that this thing just shits all over Balance and Bulky Offense. EQ/Wild Charge/Ice Punch is all the coverage this thing needs, and Volt Switch allows it to easily get chip damage on a switch-in (like Regirock, for example), and then pivot out. EQ hits Skuntank and Lanturn, two of the most popular and reliable pokemon in the tier currently. Electivire just strangely never looks absurdly good in TeamBuilder, but always ends up with solid matchups in practice. Definitely a strong pokemon, but not overwhelming by any means.

And for some other things that I think are really strong and underrated right now, but don't warrant long-form discussion:

: Adamant Ninjask still out-speeds the entire un-boosted tier bar Timid Electrode, and Banded U-Turn hits really hard. Nabs an absurd amount of free momentum while dealing very respectable damage. Infiltrator to handle Subs and hit through Veil is really nice as well.

: Very, very underrated. Base 110 Speed + Sleep Powder makes this thing always annoying to switch into, and Seed Bomb/Acrobatics covers most of the tier. Sleep Powder + SD + 110 Speed makes this thing a nuisance of a late-game cleaner. Also, Infiltrator is great in the current meta, just like on Ninjask!

: One of my favorite Scarfers at the moment. Outspeeds the entire un-boosted tier (bar Jolly Ninjask and Timid Electrode) with Scarf, Fire/Fighting is really solid coverage, and free U-Turns always feel great. Priority is also really hard to come by in this tier, and Mach Punch functions nicely as a fail-safe in many scenarios.

: There are not many good ice-resists currently, and many that do exist get hit hard by Freeze-Dry. While its speed-tier holds it back significantly, Specs Glaceon is probably the single hardest thing to switch into in the entire tier.

: With the prominence of entry hazards in the current meta thanks to things like Qwilfish and Regirock being so consistent, Kangaspikes resurfaces as one of the most tried-and-true playstyles out there. Not surprising to see this thing succeeding on ladder, but an interesting meta trend regardless, and one that I think will grow in popularity as time goes on.

Thanks for reading!

 

[AstilCodex]

Hey yall! I wanted to post my personal VR after testing and playing with and against most of the relevant mons in the tier. Keep in mind that isnt official by any means and its also mine, Codex's opinion. It might have hot takes ig so feel free to disagree with me as much as u want. ^^ (I order them by viability within the ranks so one above means its better than the other)

S rank:

S- rank

Regirock
Lanturn

A rank:

A+ rank

Sceptile
Gligar
Haunter
Kangaskhan
Tauros (This more stupid but kang is more consistent idk)
Skuntank

A rank

Qwilfish (only spike and tspiker, maybe A+)
Sandslash (spin)
Miltank
Aerodactyl
Electivire (Only electric that doesnt get lanturn'd)

A- rank

Ludicolo (This alone makes rain broken)
Rhydon
Bellossom
Chimecho (Still somehow very good wtf)
Ninetales
Sneasel
Jynx (still overrated af)
Typhlosion
Gorebyss (still not that convinced)
Rotom-Frost

B rank:

B+ rank

Ursaring (might be even better now with the normals ban)
Mr. Mime
Poliwrath
Raichu
Wormadam-Trash
Magmortar
Dusknoir
Pelipper
Camerupt
Abomasnow
Kingler
Solrock
Volbeat (rain)

B rank

Toxicroak (dissapointed by it tbh)
Drifblim
Mawile
Leafeon
Rapidash
Lumineon
Glaceon (not an ice type fan as u can see, havent struggled with it as it barely gets a chance to click moves with bad typing and mid speed)
Grumpig
Golem
Jumpluff (underrated)
Floatzel
Porygon2
Exeggutor
Charizard
Rampardos
Meganium

B- rank

Probopass
Muk
Manectric
Dodrio
Piloswine (lacks of evio hurts)
Shiftry (still decent alone)
Victreebel (same thing)
Kecleon
Tangela
Flareon
Rotom-Fan
Kadabra

C rank:

C+ rank

Armaldo
Lapras
Monferno
Ampharos
Smeargle
Shuckle
Scyther
Misdreavus
Huntail
Shedinja (if boots were a thing this would be epic, walls like every threat if no hazards)
Whiscash

C rank

Arbok
Butterfree
Relicanth
Combusken
Altaria
Corsola
Illumise (edit: didnt know this got different moves from volbeat)
Masquerain (edit: webs + qd has niche)
Dustox
Golbat
Sudowoodo
Glalie
Marowak (use rhydon for TR tbh)
Ninjask
Raticate
Wigglytuff
Noctowl
Hypno
Lunatone

C- rank

Pinsir
Regice
Lickilicky
Luxray
Walrein
Slaking
Tropius
Mothim
Golduck

UR (from viab list)

Banette (absolute garbage)
Dugtrio (speed tier doesnt make up for it)
Dunsparce
Pikachu (lost e-speed)
Politoed (having wrath or like any other water)
Regigigas (edit: will test this)

May edit this later after playing more to add mons I might have missed who knows ^^

 

[Hpdsd]

Well you forgot that Illumise has access to Wish + U-Turn + Aromatheraphy and has the highest hp stat as well as highest bulk of all clerics with the combination of pivoting and wish support, so it deserves like C- or C

 

[Realistic Waters]

Agree with posts about banning Sceptile.

I hope Sceptile gets banned soon, there are a small amount of checks and counters to mixed life orb / Specs but it's not so much that counters lack recovery, it's more so they're just kinda passive and bad most of them lol... idk I messed around with counters but most of them just aren't cutting it. I even resorted to things like specially defensive berry Exeggutor and Tropius but the actual general viability is so lackluster. Meganium just sits there and offers a free switch in / Wormadam is half ok but it can barely even take a focus blast with 60/95 bulk. Assuming that's just to one set anyway, they'll probably lose to SD on the switch so ultimately this thing has almost no counters. Not much else to add but Sceptile will break through your balance / offensive teams most of the time.

While it's here anyway, Sceptile + Aerodactyl make a great offensive core.

@ Choice Band
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake
- Crunch / Filler ?

Sceptile @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake

Near perfect due, both offer blazing speed control and they cover each others checks and counters. Aero struggles with Regirock, bulking ground types and Miltank which Sceptile pressures all while Aero covers Altaria and grass/poison types to an extent.

 

[Ch17770w]

@ Choice Band
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake
- Crunch / Filler ?

I like to run Facade last in case of a burn. Adamant scarfed is also really nice as it outspeeds stuff like scarfed Typhlosion. With scarf I prefer Rock Slide over Stone Edge for the accuracy and flinch, but banded is indeed better with edge imo.

I hope Sceptile gets banned soon, there are a small amount of checks and counters to mixed life orb / Specs but it's not so much that counters lack recovery, it's more so they're just kinda passive and bad most of them lol... idk I messed around with counters but most of them just aren't cutting it. I even resorted to things like specially defensive berry Exeggutor and Tropius but the actual general viability is so lackluster. Meganium just sits there and offers a free switch in / Wormadam is half ok but it can barely even take a focus blast with 60/95 bulk. Assuming that's just to one set anyway, they'll probably lose to SD on the switch so ultimately this thing has almost no counters. Not much else to add but Sceptile will break through your balance / offensive teams most of the time.

Regice spd takes 40.6 - 48.3% from timid specs Focus Blast. With Leftovers, Protect and the low Accuracy it is kinda decent, but ye Sceptile is broken. I like Regice as a Freeze Dry counter in combination with Lanturn to check Volt Switch.


Here is the team I use. Aerodactyl outspeeds everything up to scarfed Purugly. Defensive Drifblim covers fighting, grass and ground for Regirock, tho I guess it can also help versus some special attackers like Sceptile. In view of that an alternative ev spread for Drifblim would 252 hp, 224 def and 32 spd.
https://pokepast.es/1cd7bb6dc557f9a6

 

[Eve]

Hey again! It's been a whole 4 days, which means it's time to ban more Pokemon! Just kidding we won't be doing this again for a short while, these were just more urgent


Sceptile, Tauros, and Damp Rock have been quickbanned from BDSP NU!

Sceptile is extremely threatening by NU standards and arguably requires that players pack specific and often mediocre defensive Pokemon, or else they'll find themselves consistently making sacrifices to it due to its outstanding Speed and power. It also has some versatility that can give would-be answers a hard time- for example, Flareon doesn't appreciate Life Orb Earthquakes, and Golbat dislikes Swords Dance-boosted Rock Slide. All in all, Sceptile is just a very overwhelming and constricting Pokemon. Tauros is just fast and strong on a different level to the rest of the tier (after the other Normals got banned) thanks to Sheer Force and its solid coverage, with its only truly sturdy answer being the heavily relied upon Regirock. Damp Rock was banned for similar reasons to Heat Rock, with Rain teams bolstering the likes of Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Gorebyss, and even other Pokemon like Raichu that benefit in less direct ways. Kris hey bestie


We also voted on Aerodactyl again, as well as Light Clay. We don't believe either has proven themselves enough of a problem to be banned currently, but we'll continue to keep an eye on them!

Voting Sheet

 

[Perla]

Hey again! It's been a whole 4 days, which means it's time to ban more Pokemon! Just kidding we won't be doing this again for a short while, these were just more urgent


Sceptile, Tauros, and Damp Rock have been quickbanned from BDSP NU!

Sceptile is extremely threatening by NU standards and arguably requires that players pack specific and often mediocre defensive Pokemon, or else they'll find themselves consistently making sacrifices to it due to its outstanding Speed and power. It also has some versatility that can give would-be answers a hard time- for example, Flareon doesn't appreciate Life Orb Earthquakes, and Golbat dislikes Swords Dance-boosted Rock Slide. All in all, Sceptile is just a very overwhelming and constricting Pokemon. Tauros is just fast and strong on a different level to the rest of the tier (after the other Normals got banned) thanks to Sheer Force and its solid coverage, with its only truly sturdy answer being the heavily relied upon Regirock. Damp Rock was banned for similar reasons to Heat Rock, with Rain teams bolstering the likes of Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Gorebyss, and even other Pokemon like Raichu that benefit in less direct ways. Kris hey bestie


We also voted on Aerodactyl again, as well as Light Clay. We don't believe either has proven themselves enough of a problem to be banned currently, but we'll continue to keep an eye on them!

Voting Sheet

View attachment 412949

I think a suspect test would be great for Aerodactyl. Maybe this would also push people to play the tier.
Or maybe you want to wait if it rises to RU next month

 

[ProNooob]

I think a suspect test would be great for Aerodactyl. Maybe this would also push people to play the tier.
Or maybe you want to wait if it rises to RU next month

What archetypes are most prominent in this tier? I assume frail offense based on the VR?

 

[master oden]

What archetypes are most prominent in this tier? I assume frail offense based on the VR?

Spikes Offense and Spikes balance are really good. Defogs are limited outside of gligar and skunk and for spin it's legit just sandslash. Qwilfish is just a beast right now in the meta, should be moved to at least A+ maybe S, imo.

 

[Meri Berry]

BDSP NU News! (VR and more)​

Hello everyone! I'd like to share a lot of cool things that are happening to bring the tier to a better place from a resources aspect. The tier hasn't been out for that long, but to take advantage of its popularity within the NU and BDSP communities, we decided to try and push these resources out as soon as possible to help people get into the tier.

Firstly, we have a new Viability Rankings update! This slate was voted on by a couple new faces in poh and Togkey , taking the place of Corthius and Eve for this slate. The reasoning for this is that both of them have been very active around the NU and BDSP discords, as well as with building and playing, and both Corthius and Eve were too busy for the very quick turnaround on these votes. You can find the full sheet here, and the changes below! Keep in mind, Top is about equivalent to S, High to A, Mid to B, and Low to C.

Viability Rankings Update (Letter Rankings!)

Top -> S
Top -> S
High -> S

Top -> A+
High -> A+
High -> A+
High -> A+
High -> A+

High -> A
High -> A
High -> A
High -> A
High -> A
High -> A
High -> A
High -> A
Mid -> A

High -> A-
High -> A-
High -> A-
High -> A-

High -> B+
High -> B+
High -> B+
High -> B+
High -> B+
High -> B+
Mid -> B+
Mid -> B+
Mid -> B+
Mid -> B+
Mid -> B+
Mid -> B+
Mid -> B+
Mid -> B+

High -> B
High -> B
Mid -> B
Mid -> B
Mid -> B
Mid -> B
Mid -> B
Mid -> B

Mid -> B-
Mid -> B-
Mid -> B-
Mid -> B-
Mid -> B-
Mid -> B-
Mid -> B-
Low -> B-
Low -> B-

Mid -> C+
Mid -> C+
Mid -> C+
Mid -> C+
Mid -> C+
Mid -> C+
Mid -> C+
Low -> C+
Low -> C+
Low -> C+
Low -> C+

Mid -> C
Low -> C
Low -> C
Low -> C
Low -> C
Low -> C
Low -> C
Low -> C

Mid -> C-
Mid -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-
Low -> C-

Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR
Low -> UR

Adding to this, we have a new project: BDSP NeverUsed Analyses! For starters, we're going to try and complete every Pokemon down to A-, where our initial cutoff for meta-defining Pokemon lies. Unlike normal analyses, these will be a bit shorter in nature, and will be bundled initially with our Viability Rankings instead of shown on-site. You'll be allowed to reserve up to 2 analyses, which may change in the future depending on the demand of contribution to this project. More details can be found in this thread.

Finally, we are updating sample teams currently! If you messaged Pokeslice with your team already, your team is still being looked at for the samples, but we're going to add a form on top of this to hopefully prevent teams from being ignored or missed. The form is here, and you can expect these samples to be updated within the next couple days. Thanks again for playing the tier!

 

[glock in my toyota]

Hello everyone!

Been really enjoying this meta the past week or so, I feel like things are really well-balanced overall, and there's no one dominant playstyle or mon. I wanted to make a post highlighting something I've been having a lot of fun with, and that is surprisingly effective with proper support.

Carvanha @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely / Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Ice Beam / Ice Fang / Destiny Bond

Carvanha finds a really cute niche in today's meta as a cleaner on Spike-stack builds. With base 90 attack, Lonely/Adamant Carvanha hits surprisingly hard, and the dual-STAB combination of Crunch/Waterfall is nearly unresisted throughout the tier - the only notable mons that resist it are Shiftry, Poliwrath, and Toxicroak. The presence of Speed Boost alone can make this a threatening late-game cleaner when chip damage is dealt via hazards or supporting teammates (notably Kangaskhan, the best Spike-stack abuser in the tier). Protect speaks for itself, guaranteeing Carvanha turns of safety as well as letting it rack up damage from Toxic Spikes. Waterfall is opted for over Liquidation for the flinch chance alone, which can let Carvanha sometimes luck its way into winning 1v1s it shouldn't and escaping with speed boosts. The last slot is up to the user: Ice Beam is not incredibly strong but does deal impressive damage to the likes of Gligar and Altaria, as well as giving Carvanha an option to nab kills on Grass-types who have sustained chip damage (namely Leafeon). Ice Fang can be used in this role as well, and hits SpDef Altaria and Bellossom harder than Beam. It's essentially a coinflip between these two options, and most games you don't end up clicking Ice Beam/Fang anyway. Destiny Bond gives Carvanha some utility outside of being a late-game cleaner, allowing it to get in, perhaps revenge kill something, get a speed boost or two, and then take something else with it. Definitely more situational, but worth consideration surely.

This thing has been performing pretty solidly throughout testing, and although I can recognize that its uselessness defensively and very narrow niche don't make it *good* by any means, I think it's a really cute option for Spike-stack teams.

 

[Ch17770w]

Here is the team I use. Aerodactyl outspeeds everything up to scarfed Purugly. Defensive Drifblim covers fighting, grass and ground for Regirock, tho I guess it can also help versus some special attackers like Sceptile. In view of that an alternative ev spread for Drifblim would 252 hp, 224 def and 32 spd.
https://pokepast.es/1cd7bb6dc557f9a6

I updated my scarfed Aerodactyl team. Features defensive Body Press . Not sure if that is a thing already, but I find it pretty fun basically bypassing Slow Start. Alternatively run Thunder Wave instead of Sleep Talk. I tried to cover weaknesses with each other. E.g. resists Fighting and is immune to ground for Regirock. Still kinda weak to, but I guess every team is kinda weak to it that does not run a true wall.
https://pokepast.es/68b1f927a2e91736

Edit: Seems like Body Press is weakened by Slow Start. I dealt 10% to a Sandslash. Calc says 16~19% to max def Sandslash. Since the ability says halved atk and not halved power, I do not think it is supposed to be reduced.
I changed for. Fixes mentioned weakness to Glaceon at the cost of Knock off support.

Regice Set

Regice @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Protect
- Thunder Wave

 

[Aawin]

New shifts! Going to keep my thoughts on each one pretty brief for the time being, will edit with more thought out responses later.


Abomasnow moved from NU to RU- Aboma is gone, which means veil HO gets hella smoked. Aboma has insanely good coverage that made it pretty solid as an anti- Lanturn + Regirock Pokemon and I'll miss it for that aspect

Magmortar moved from NU to RU- I lowkey found this mon to be a bit annoying, in a similar vein as Electivire, but nothing too overwhelming. Pretty strong breaker that possessed a stronger EQ vs Lanturn than Typhlosion. Don't really have too many thoughts on this mon ovr, neutral on it leaving.

Volbeat moved from NU to RU- After the Heat Rock and Damp Rock bans, this mon fell off harder than Fetty Wap post 2016. Due to weather rising in popularity in RU, I'm not surprised to see it rise into a tier where those items are legal.

Hitmonlee moved from RU to NU- V excited for this drop. Provides tons of versatility as a CB nuke, Scarfer, Unburden shenanigans, AND HAZARD REMOVAL!!!!! Hitmonlee should be pretty solid in the tier moving forward.

Weezing moved from RU to NU- WEEZER HAS RETURNED! We all know what Weezing does from the last time it was here, glad to have another Tspiker, Fighting resist (also fucks with Hitmonlee!), and Ground immunity back in the tier.


Looking forward to seeing your thoughts on the shifts! :)

 

[Ch17770w]

Volbeat moved from NU to RU- After the Heat Rock and Damp Rock bans, this mon fell off harder than Fetty Wap post 2016, not surprised to see it rise into a tier where those items are legal.

I feel like if the usage drops, it should not rise in the tier. Ninetales was not moved to UU either, just because Draught was banned by BDSP RU. Also Illumise was not banned, which is the same set with less u-turn damage, which does not seem necessarily essential. I guess Volbeat simply rose in usage in RU.

 

[Stories]

I feel like if the usage drops, it should not rise in the tier. Ninetales was not moved to UU either, just because Draught was banned by BDSP RU. Also Illumise was not banned, which is the same set with less u-turn damage, which does not seem necessarily essential. I guess Volbeat simply rose in usage in RU.

No? Drought is banned in RU so Volbeat is used there as a Sun Setter. Ninetales didn’t rise to UU because its not used there regardless of Drought being legal or not.

 

[Ch17770w]

Am I tripping or isn't that exactly what I said.
Edit: Ah, well I see your point. The comment I replied to was still contradicting saying, that Volbeat 'fell off harder than Fetty Wap post 2016, not surprised to see it rise into a tier'.
Edit2: Tho interesting that Ninetales is not higher in the usage, because it is definitely considered viable in UU https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bdsp-uu.3694307/page-2#post-9052360

 

[Pokeslice]

Well Aawin sniped my usually post shift post, but that won't stop me from making one anyways, sorry Aawin! Anyways, I was genuinely surprised by the usage stats and shifts from this month, and I wanted to comment on a few of them while throwing in some great picks to look out for in the teambuillder.

and - These are two very welcome additions to the tier in my opinion. With our limited hazard control, an extra spinner is always nice, especially for offense, and Lee can effectively run a multitude of powerful sets, such as CB Reckless HJK, Scarf, BU, or an Unburden Sweeper. Fighting-types in general claim in the current tier, but unlike with Chan, we actually have resists to this one which should make it a healthy addition unless BU or CB Reckless sets are way over the top. Weezing dropping definitely helps beat Lee, and it also adds another great switch in to Regirock and Gligar while providing very nice T Spike support in a meta where we have to rely on Qwil for that. I see both as being instant meta defining Pokemon in a very good way.

Let's Talk Usage Stats!

Interesting Pick for #1

| 1 | Sandslash | 32.475% |

32% is a little bit absurd for Sandslash considering that it's barely a top 10 Pokemon in the tier in my opinion. It does have some good merit and role compression as a spinner and rocker, plus offensive SD sets can catch people off guard, but number 1 in usage with 32%? That's wild. Gligar effectively does a lot of what Sandslash does, but better in almost all situations excepting CB Aero. Yes that's a legit niche, and a big part of why Slash is not a bad pick for a team, but in general, the utility and splashability that Gligar provides means that I look to this Pokemon more often than Slash. Knock, U-turn, Defog, SD Acro, SR, etc can fill almost any role and do it well.

NEED More Usage

| 20 | Kangaskhan | 9.246% | - Amazing anti offense Pokemon with powerful Fake Out's, a great speed tier, coverage, and solid bulk. Easily in my top 10 Pokemon in the tier.
| 21 | Electivire | 8.800% | - Such a powerful balance breaker, with coverage that demolishes the main defensive core of Regi+Gligar+Lanturn. Truly a menacing threat to face when piloting a more basic balance, and everyone should keep it in mind when building.
| 29 | Dusknoir | 5.800% | - SO underrated already, and gets way better with Lee dropping. The combo of bulk+utility means Dusknoir will always put in work, and SubPunch can be a terrifying surprise breaker that will absolutely go in once you get it rolling.

Some More Pokemon That Deserve To Be Tried Out

| 22 | Mr. Mime | 8.579% | - Psychic+Fairy STAB into a tier without real Steel's is amazing. Specs can also almost 2hko max SpD Skunk, making it an amazing bait for that Pokemon, while Mime can effectively run Scarf or NP sets thanks to its coverage, solid speed tier, and Trick. Filter helps you bait and eat a Scarf Haunter Shadow Ball too :)
| 23 | Jynx | 7.789% | - Same reasoning as with Mime, but with a nearly unresisted Ice Beam, slightly more speed, and access to Lovely Kiss shenanigans. What's not to love?
| 24 | Ludicolo | 7.353% | - Water-type who can beat Lanturn? Sign me up. Rain Dance sweepers are legit scary, while Specs, LO, or even SubSeed are all consistent sets to run.
| 26 | Ursaring | 6.433% | - Kinda insane breaker that's flying under the radar. Want to just brainlessly click? Go ahead and try Ursaring. It gives off Zangoose vibes.
| 27 | Solrock | 5.913% | - A shame to see this at 6% considering how great of an alternative to Regirock this is. By far the best Kanga answer, and it has access to Morning Sun, Wisp, and Levitate, giving it utility that Regirock can't accomplish sometimes. Granted, you aren't as sturdy into Fire-types (pack a Lanturn), but it's really an amazing choice for a lot of teams.

What about the now PU's?
Oh God did some of these blow my mind.

The Legitimate Meta Threats

| 37 | Sneasel | 4.230% | - Just missing the cutoff, but this needs to be used SO much more. Give it a try. SD/CB with that STAB combo, speed tier, and coverage in Iron Tail for Regi is, plainly put, great.
| 42 | Glaceon | 3.881% | - gsjhkdfjafgksuhdlif;shgfkhluhsdi;f (best breaker in NU btw) dsgfuhdsifhugdfhiu;gdh;whekwhpudydhj
| 49 | Ninetales | 3.399% | - Another one of those "oh wow" drops, NP Tales is insanely strong into the tier. Fire STAB+the speed goes a long way, and +2 E Ball can pick off the weakened Rock and Water-types who try to wall Ninetales. Other options like Sub, Hypnosis, or Disable also add elements to what it can do.
| 60 | Jumpluff | 2.761% | - The base 55 Atk is anything but enticing, but the speed tier, solid bulk, and movepool make this an annoying menace for teams to face. SubSeed, SD Acro, SD Sap, or some mixture of something similar puts in huge work and deserves a look on teams.
| 66 | Wormadam-Trash | 2.382% | - Our only and best Steel, a good answer to the best special breakers in the tier of Glaceon, Eggy, and Mr. Mime, should not be in PU. It provides a ton of compression and is great glue for a lot of balance teams looking to find answers to all the powerful breakers in NU.

Pokemon That Deserve a Builder Look

| 55 | Floatzel | 3.243% | - Offensive Water-types without coverage for Lanturn seem a bit weird to run (explains why Ludicolo is pretty good), but Floatzel definitely makes it work. Scarf and CB are both really solid breakers thanks to its speed tier and coverage options, and CB can even muscle past Lanturn over the course of a game. It also gets some priority in Aqua Jet, which is always great when offensive Pokemon like Scarf Typh, Aero, or Haunter run the meta.
| 56 | Whiscash | 3.241% | - Not a meme! Defensive Whiscash is a really cool anti meta pick with its ability to beat the Regi+Lanturn+Gligar+Skunk cores while also acting as a crucial Aero resist. Really not bad at all and I've very much enjoyed it.
| 61 | Monferno | 2.754% | - Monferno has been intriguing me a lot recently as a potential scarfer since it's the one Fighting-type with U-Turn and is a consistent bait for Gligar, Sandslash, and now Weezing. I've felt it has a lot of matchups where it's amazing, and others where its dead weight, but for a more offensive player/team, this is an underrated option.
| 72 | Pelipper | 2.050% | - Remember when people thought this would be one of the best defoggers? Well it's not terrible at it, but if you run Scald, Knock, U-Turn, Roost, you'll get significantly more mileage out of it as a pivot and way to Knock Lanturn.
| 83 | Corsola | 1.567% | - As most people know by now, a Rock-type feels almost mandatory on a lot of teams. Corsola excels at filling that role thanks to its super bulky stats, utility, and amazing ability in Regen. By far the best answer to Typhlosion in the metagame, you need to try it out, and it's also not a half bad check to almost every special attacker in the tier, including taking 25 from Lanturn Volt.
| 86 | Camerupt | 1.401% | - Another day 1 threat that just...fell off for no reason. Camerupt is a really great anti RegiTurn pick, capable of smacking around those cores while adding a Volt immune, Fire resist, and Stealth Rocks. In the past, I've liked more offensive spreads, which really shred into RegiTurn teams.
| 87 | Piloswine | 1.387% | - Love Pilo. Super nice offensive rocker that, similar to Camerupt, loves to face RegiTurn teams, especially when there's a Gligar. It's also a really good answer to Electivire, which makes it worth considering always. I will say that imo Lanturn should speed creep to 200 for max Pilo, which definitely makes it a worse Pokemon, but even without outspeeding, Ice Shard and a near unresistable STAB combo go a long way.
| 100 | Regigigas | 0.934% | - This is a bit of a personal pick, but I think Regigigas has a ton of potential exploration that still needs to be done. SubTect sets and Knock with the lower power level that allows the bulk to shine a bit more have put in mad work against me, especially as a lot of teams right now are more passive balance cores.

Some Other Thoughts
After playing around a lot with the tier, I've really liked it and I feel that it's pretty well balanced, but there were two Pokemon that were on my personal radar that I wanted to hear some thoughts on and get discussion about going.

- Haunter was a Pokemon that has already been on the slate and been brought up a few times in the council chat in the past, and I was wondering what people thought about it personally. Scarf is a super splashable set that can fit on most teams, and other options, like Specs, SubDisable, Wisp+D-Bond, etc, can all help it muscle past or abuse different things. Every good team has to be able to not fold to Haunter, which is part of why Skuntank usage is through the roof. Do you guys feel that it's too restrictive/broken? What are you using to beat it outside of Skuntank?

- This is another Pokemon that I keep struggling with. The blazing speed coupled with Edgequake coverage is absolutely amazing in NU, and teams can often fold quite easily to it without a Ground-type, which helps explain a lot of the Sandslash usage. I think that Aero is definitely counterable with stuff like Regirock, PhysDef Gligar for LO variants, or goated Whiscash, but it's definitely an extremely strong meta threat. Do people feel like Aero is too much for the tier or a healthy presence?

 

[Birdbrain103]

I would like to talk about a pretty underrated option in the metagame that I haven't seen very often. In fact I haven't seen Qwilfish a lot outside of defensive fast taunt sets with spikes and all that good stuff


Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Poison Jab
- Aqua Jet

This Pokemon is insane, doubly so with rocks and webs up. Its capable of dealing massive damage to just about every mon in the tier with its near unresistant STAB combination only being blocked by exactly itself, and toxicroak who may as well be setup fodder as Qwilfish resists it back.

Slower Mons:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 447-530 (126.2 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skuntank: 415-489 (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 40 HP / 140 Def Lanturn: 378-446 (94.2 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 382-450 (99.4 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingler: 266-316 (105.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gorebyss: 286-339 (113.9 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Poliwrath: 312-368 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Faster Mons:
:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 369-437 (124.2 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 429-507 (142.5 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 203-239 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 282-333 (122 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 214-253 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 251-296 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 181-214 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock




There are a few things that can stop it but most of these take a heavy price in doing so:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 142-169 (58.9 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Dies to rocks upon doing so, sacrificing valuable speed control against hyper offense)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 191-226 (57.1 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery Sacrifices most of its HP to do this without recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 175-208 (59.5 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Sacrifices most of its HP to do this without recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Poliwrath: 226-266 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Forced to Circle throw, If it can't rest on the mon brought in it can't stop Qwilfish anymore, losing a lot of health making it hard to rest.

+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 214-253 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Opposing Qwilfish has to scald burn

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 317-374 (103.2 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 190-224 (70.1 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Needs to be an earthquake variant, takes a lot in doing so, becomes fodder if it lacks earthquake, which most do as it wants sucker punch, both STABS and substitute.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Regirock: 265-312 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Sacrifices itself to thunder wave it. Sacrificing Regirock against hyper offense teams can't be a good thing.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 251-296 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Loses most health, but is able to retaliate and OHKO with psychic.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Drifblim: 261-308 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Needs + Speed otherwise
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Drifblim: 571-672 (128.6 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 208-247 (71.4 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Will take heavy damge. Dies to all priority but may be able to switch into rocks a second time if it took less than 76% from Aqua Jet, though this only happens ~30% of the time.
Scarf Jynx can OHKO it even with webs up, but cannot switch in,

With all this in mind, I've noted some good partners for it in

and Who are able to defeat most of this Pokemon's switch-ins. Sneasel is immune to intimidate and can chop up Dusknoir, Chimecho, Drifblim, defensive Qwilfish due to Intimidate being ignored.

Jynx can create massive offensive pressure as well against the likes of Poliwrath, Weezing, Regirock, and other high defense mons that could try and impede Qwilfish.

 

[Realistic Waters]

This thing kinda seems like Aerodactyl when we first got it. Super threatening at a first glance but falls back a little in practice which balances it out.
It's still good don't get me wrong but it's not as good as I'd hoped and Gligar being on almost every team isn't giving it any help. Weezing will probably fall into top 10 usage while Dusknoir and Chimecho have enough bulk to switch in reliably.

That being said, there's always some tech sets that people come up with and in general those mons mentioned above don't fit onto hyper offense so some unburden set could be super threatening! :0



Not much to say really. Great blanket check to a bunch of things, nice! I'd probably use Flamethrower on its standard set to stop Haunter coming in for free each time tho.

Anyway gonna post some fun sets!

Typhlosion @ Expert Belt
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Focus Blast
- Extrasensory

Don't get me wrong, Specs Eruption is can be threatening but 90% of the time but it wasn't doing enough for me as a wallbreaker because of all the sp def rest talk Lanturn on every team. This set sacrifices raw power for versatility. You can also bluff choice scarf too! :D

Fire Blast acts as your stab, Earthquake is mandatory and pressures Lanturn for a potential 2HKO which is the usual primary fire resist, Regirock gets bopped by Focus Blast which is usually the secondary fire resist and also nabs Miltank and Rhydon as a bonus. Extrasensory hits Poliwrath and OHKO's Qwilfish on a roll to round things out.

Victreebel @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild / Rash Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Strength Sap

Grass wallbreaker. It's main competition is Exeggutor but I'll list a few reasons why this thing deserves some more usage over Eggy.

• 15 more speed is pretty helpful... Gligar / Qwilfish only need 16 speed evs to outrun Modest Eggy. You can also potentially get the jump on Sandslash and Miltank too and speed tie with Poliwrath / Ludicolo
• It's typing isn't so detrimental defensively (u-turns, poisons / ghosts / darks)
• Better match up vs Skuntank thanks to Strength Sap / Knock Off

In general this thing is difficult to switch into, Weezing and Skunk never liked switching into Leaf Storm anyway, it has just enough speed and the utility is a bonus.

Whiscash @ Leftovers
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Future Sight / idk something else lol

Nice to see people who don't hate Whiscash! Dragon Dance is bad but the decent bulk and typing come in handy for soft checking things like higher tier threats like Lanturn, Skuntank, Aerodactyl, Regirock, Electivire, Qwilfish and Weezing (most even stay in and try to burn it lol). Despite the average special attack this thing still pressures well enough and tanks hits throughout the game. Grass types now take a risk switching in too!. I had fun with Future sight in the last slot hehe.

Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 200 Def / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam / Hyper Voice
- Stealth Rock

Competitively bad? I don't think this mon is "good" but this is the best set I could come up with. This mon is borderline a meme? But hey Grass Knot and Ice Beam pressure most of our rockers. DGleam and Compeitive give it a "niche" over Kecleon. lolz...

 

[glock in my toyota]

hi all, i think i'm ready to make this post, been debating it in my head for a while. aerodactyl is a problem.

having played more ladder games than maybe anyone, as well as a bunch of matches so far in the kickoff tournament, i have a lot of experience building with and against this thing. obviously, it has the best speed-tier of any viable non-scarfer and edge-quake is excellent. it can run roost, rocks, or defog as nice tools, and has some other excellent coverage options in crunch and aerial ace. while it's always been really good, i feel more and more as time passes that it's a little too oppressive upon the tier.

LO Edge/Quake/Ace is insanely good coverage for the tier, only being comfortably handled by the mega-bulky rocks (regi/rhydon), fat dusknoir, or physdef grounds (gligar/slash). it can also run crunch over ace, making it slightly worse against bulky grasses and hard-walled by poliwrath, but allowing it to hit fat ghosts/psychics like dusknoir and chimecho. because its coverage is so good, and because so many physical walls lack reliable recovery, its checks can be easily whittled. aero doesnt really need much whittling on these answers until they start thinking twice before switching into stone edges and earthquakes. with just these three attacks, aero poses perhaps the biggest threat in NU as a late-game cleaner. so many of the tier's staples like skunk, lanturn, typh, hitmonlee, and many more find themselves being OHKO'd with only minimal chip or no chip at all.

choice banded aero is also insanely oppressive, as things like fully physdef gligar find themselves (usually) 2HKO'd by stone edge with rocks up. it also obviously doesnt run any of the support tools like rocks/defog/roost, so it can run the full swathe of coverage options, essentially making it hard-walled by essentially nothing if it predicts properly. while it is crippled as a cleaner because ti cannot switch moves, the raw power of it over LO allows it to better smash through would-be answers like gligar or dusknoir.

its speedtier also feels slightly understated. outspeeding literally the entire viable unboosted tier is fucking insane. while i've discussed how aero is able to threaten would-be answers, it also lacks ways to prepare for it offensively. once this thing is in vs offense, the only way to force it out is with a scarfer that threatens it like rotom-f, or with your own aero in a speed-tie. it feels really stupid to try and build around, and i've found myself considering dual-scarf on many offense teams strictly because of aero lol.

tldr: aero has options that allow it to play around would-be answers, requires only slight chip damage on these answers before beating them, and has a speedtier that makes it absolutely destructive vs. offense. i'm beginning to think this thing is seriously unhealthy for the tier.

 

[Realistic Waters]

Yeah I agree for the most part but I do feel ever so slightly conflicted. I guess wouldn't be sad if the council banned it tho lol.

To be brutally honest, I've not had any major problems when encountering Aero on the ladder or in tournament games. Idk maybe it's just the fact that I use balance teams 95% of the time, explore lesser used checks and counters or that fact I can keep the pressure up with Stealth Rocks and random choice scarf mons. Tbh, I'm probably over preparing.

It's still relatively frail, our hazard control is mediocre and that's just a ugly flaw for Aerodactyl so you can usually just pic it off with priority too. I guess you could pair it with Defog Skuntank but there's not really a whole lot of synergy. There's always the spinners too but they are never guaranteed to keep hazards off the field with ghosts and they always stack weaknesses, same with other defog mons.

That said, it is still kind of annoying to switch into tho especially because hazards make a huge difference and it can wreck havoc against more offensively orientated teams. Let's have a look at almost every Aerodactyl counter / check / meme from best to worst factoring in general viability and bulk for switching in.

Solid Counters/checks

- Best switch in with investment. People sure do love Slash. Me included!

- Can shrug off attacks with investment but may get worn down. Otherwise works as a good hard check.

- Less physical bulk but still comfortably switches in with investment and immediately threatens back.


Decent counters / passable checks / some albeit slightly less viable in general

- Guaranteed to switch in with max bulk, even with SR on the field. Not really a big fan of Miltank's passiveness but otherwise its a decent mon and handles Aero nicely.

-Tanks banded stone edge comfortably with 110/110/110 bulk and rest is the go to at low health. Also gets Knock Off!

- Barely a check. Just accept the fact that it won't switch into CB with rocks up although it has just enough bulk for LO. Very good mon regardless.

- Being able to switch into its stabs are great. Too bad this mon is really awkward tho. Faces competition but with max bulk, it can avoid a 2HKO just about but idk if you would wanna use that spread...

- Pressure limits them to 4 stone edge. Bulky set is recommended if you actually want to switch in and you'll need rest lol. Good luck with Crunch tho. Listing this here though because Dusk is an excellent choice for a balance / bulky balance team.


Shaky checks. Hazards on the field may be an issue or predicting moves.

- If you can play around Aerial Ace, you should be ok lolz good luck tho.

- Not a great switch in regardless. Takes a stone edge just ok but Earthquake is a pain.

- Tanks two stone edges.... barely. So it's basically a one time check. Unfort.

- Can switch in with hazards off the field on banded stone edge with recovery to boot.

- Defensive Duck needs hazards off the field if you wanna beat CB stone edge. Cool mon to use outside of this tho.


Memes / Need prediction or luck

- Technically a counter lmao too bad it's a meme and restricted to sand teams anyway which aren't a thing.

- With max HP, you can tank two CB Earthquakes. Shame this thing is too slow to be mainstream "viable"

- Maybe you can tank some hits but I'm not sure if this thing is viable. Typing falls victim to coverage too often. :(

- I'm grateful it can switch into banded edge. Sadly Earthquake does about 50% and this thing is kinda poop... lol

- If this is your Aero switch in, you probably deserve to lose. Maybe you can beat LO 1 v 1..

- Tank stone edge but scared of flying coverage. Leafeon and Tangela fall with the same problem. Also very passive and kinda bad :(

.....

tldr: Despite it's obvious flaws, it only needs a small amount of support. Defensive counterplay is hit n miss, its blazing speed tier and adequate coverage put too much pressure on most builds so it maybe should get the boot.

Would love to hear what the council think!

 

[Aawin]

resident council member here (on mobile), figured I'd give my current thoughts on Aero rn in the metagame. I've been pro ban on this mon since it was put on the last ban slate, and can see a lot of the issues presented with answering it. Blazing speed tier, strong STAB in Stone Edge (Aerial Ace too ig), and coverage in EQ is pretty difficult to prep for overall. I find Aero to be incredibly constricting and find myself putting 1 answer (something like Regirock with Rest, for example), and a check (physdef Weezing with Thunderbolt is something I've been toying with) onto a team in order to keep me from getting smoked. Both of these mons have flaws, as their recovery methods in Rest and Pain Split can be wildly inconsistent or exploitable in some regard

While I do think its bulk could be better, SubRoost sets with Pressure are still incredibly potent versus common answers and PP stalling them. I think Aero poses a sizable threat to the metagame as a whole, and its versatility and raw power push it over the edge for me. As RW pointed out, this mon needs very little support in order to flourish. I'm open to discussion on the fate of Aero, and I'll be glad to evaluate further if anyone has questions for me

 

[AstilCodex]

I will support if council does tiering action on Aerodactyl either being a direct vote or a potential suspect, if the latter doesn't mean killing the tier like it did with RU. Which I don't think it should. Reasoning have been said already.
Also I wouldn't be against looking on Haunter and Jynx now. First makes Skunk almost mandatory and now, I've started finally to see the Jynx hype and how I think its superior to Glaceon now.

So ye I agree, also hi