Metagame BDSP NU (Mesprit Ban @ Post #111)

[Pokeslice]

Would love to hear what the council think!

Just like Aawin, I also think Aero is too much. Between LO and CB sets, real checks outside of Regi, Slash, and Whiscash don't really exist, but what really pushes it over the top for me is Taunt Aero.


Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Taunt

Personally, I've found Aerial Ace to be a nice coverage option on LO sets, as you're able to threaten bulkier grass types, but recently I've turned to Taunt as the last move on LO sets, which gives Aero the ability to break past a ton of its soft checks that it couldn't before, especially over a course of a game. Here are just some examples from the list above that RW put together.

- Probably the best example of how strong Taunt can be. By shutting down Roost, what usually is seen as a pretty solid soft check to LO Aero (not CB) turns into dead weight without access to recovery.
- The same idea applies to Miltank. It usually takes Edge/Quake really well, but when Taunted, it can't shrug off the hits and can barely pressure it back, so Aero beats it 1v1.
- Taunt shuts down Rest, so you beat the more defensive Knock sets 1v1 unless they run coverage such as BP or Rock Slide for it.
- Once you shut down Wisp, there isn't really any way for Weezing to touch you.
- Taunting Solrock takes some balls, Rock STAB/Wisp hurts, but when Solrock switches into an Edge, chances are it's going to have to Morning Sun up if it wants to switch in later in the game, so take advantage of that and punish it hard.
- Not really a check because you need max Def to eat 2 LO Edge comfortably, but if you happen to run into a max Def P2, then the same logic as Solrock applies to P2.

If you haven't yet, give Taunt a try on Life Orb sets! I promise it's worth it and imo the best Aero set that pushes it far over the top. Taunt also helps keep rocks off from Slash and Regi who easily wall Aero and use it as an opportunity to get them up.

Also I wouldn't be against looking on Haunter and Jynx now. First makes Skunk almost mandatory and now, I've started finally to see the Jynx hype and how I think its superior to Glaceon now.

+1 from me on Haunter. Trying to build balance right now feels extremely difficult thanks to a combo of threatening mons, and without Haunter, Skunk wouldn't feel mandatory on every team and would definitely free up the builder. I don't necessarily feel like it's as broken as Aero, but it's definitely restrictive and the tier would be better with it gone imo. As for Jynx, I voted ban on it earlier in the tier's history, and I wouldn't be opposed to it going, but I don't think it's the most pressing thing to get rid of in the tier, although it would get better with Aero and Haunter gone. As for it being superior to Glaceon, idk. Glace is more directly threatening, especially to balance builds, but Jynx's dual STAB and Lovely Kiss is kinda crazy. I wouldn't be surprised if it's too much for the tier, and I'm curious what other people think about it.

- I'm also curious what people think of Eggy. It's a stupid strong breaker with basically no switch in more than once and multiple ways to get it in on the field to threaten common Pokemon like Regirock and Lanturn. It's also another reason that Skuntank feels so mandatory on balance, and even that gets blasted by Leaf Storm. Eggy is currently on my radar, but how does everyone else feel about it?

 

[glock in my toyota]

totally agreed regarding haunter, it feels insanely restrictive in the builder. jynx on the other hand i find is only really strong against true balance teams with very low speed-tiers. it struggles insanely hard vs. offense (scarf can have an ok offense matchup but even then it isnt ideal, NP is often trash vs offense). i think jynx ends up being either amazing or completely worthless on team preview, and even then, in a lot of the games where it has an awesome matchup it just ends up underperforming. low acc on LK also makes it inconsistent, which is less than ideal. it doesnt feel nearly as universally strong and restrictive as things like haunter or aero, imo.

exeggutor is an interesting case, because its power is nearly unparalleled across the tier, and offensive grasses are just insanely strong because of the prevalence of regi/lant/gligar/slash as defensive cores and staples. however, the strong presence of skuntank as a solid check as well as the fact that eggy's typing is dogshit defensively makes it feel fairly in-balance for me as of now. in practice, most games, it feels like eggy gets in and is immediately forced out once it clicks once. eggy can do a shitload of work by just clicking three buttons, but it really does feel like it only ever get to click 3 buttons a game because it gets pressured out, worn down on switchin, and struggles to find turns to get in, especially vs. offense. it's something to keep an eye on, but i dont think it's out of balance quite yet. haunter and aero gotta go tho.

 

[Pokeslice]

PSA: Stop using Physical Toxicroak!!!


​

Toxicroak is a Pokemon that we all know and love for it's cool design, unique typing, and potent offensive potential. In most other metagames, including SS NU, Toxicroak uses its access to Swords Dance, coverage options, and defensive utility to give itself a reputation as an extremely powerful breaker with sweeping capabilities and an occasionally cool Scarfer. In BDSP NU, many of those same traits seem alluring into a tier where Fighting attacks are so powerful, especially when paired with a strong secondary STAB move, and truthfully, it's really good. The usual SD and physical sets just aren't.

The problems for physical Toxicroak lies with two things.

1) The sheer amount of walls in the tier and limited set up opportunities - Of all the Pokemon who hurt the most from Weezing dropping into NU, Toxicroak will be on top of that list. It added a new Pokemon that could wall its dual STABs, joining a collection of balance staples who wall Toxicroak such as Gligar, Sandslash, Whiscash, Dusknoir, and Chimecho. It also has a hard time setting up a Swords Dance in a lot of games, with multiple offensive threats scaring it out, coverage options like EQ on Regirock, and the large amounts of random Wisp's and T-Waves slotted in on defensive Pokemon.
2) BDSP movesets SUCK - Toxicroak primarily lost two huge options that would make it a top tier threat. The first is Gunk Shot, a high BP STAB move with a high chance to poison. Without it, Croak is forced to use Poison Jab, a significantly worse option with a noticeably lower power level. The second, and arguably the biggest change in regards to NU, is the loss of Ice Punch. Without it, Gligar is a surefire switch in time and time again, same with Sandslash. With these coverage options, SD Croak would be a balance breaker better than Electivire, but sadly, it lost them.

So What Set Should You Run?
Great question! With this in mind, I've found SD sets to be wildly inconsistent and underwhelming, and after theorizing a lot around Toxicroak both on my own and with the BDSP NU channel of the Discord, I can safely say that I believe that Special Toxicroak has significantly more potential in the current tier than physical variants.

Special Croak Sets

Toxicroak @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Vacuum Wave

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball / Vacuum Wave
- Nasty Plot

Special sets largely get rid of the issues that revolved around SD Toxicroak and should be the way to go for all Toxicroaks in the future, easily beating down majority of SD Croak's answers in the tier thanks to its high base power STAB of Focus Blast combined with Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball. On top of this, because of how fast it is for NU, it can afford Modest, which makes up for the seemingly weak 86 SpA it's coming off of, and priority Vacuum Wave can help facilitate a sweep or a better matchup versus offense.

Wall of Calcs

Choice Specs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 174-204 (52 - 61%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 394-465 (111.2 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 148-174 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 175-207 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Whiscash: 322-379 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 164-193 (49.1 - 57.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dusknoir: 170-200 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 170-200 (48 - 56.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 142-168 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chimecho: 238-282 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chimecho: 201-237 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 103-123 (34.2 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 93-111 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 81.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Pawniard: 32-64888 (266.6 - 540733.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Nasty Plot
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 300-354 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 226-265 (67.6 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 268-316 (80.2 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 684-805 (193.2 - 227.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 256-302 (72.3 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Whiscash: 558-656 (131.6 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dusknoir: 291-343 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 291-343 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 246-290 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chimecho: 411-486 (116.1 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chimecho: 347-409 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 283-334 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 213-251 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

As you can tell from these calcs, Special Croak absolutely beats down any of physical's counters, baiting in and beating Gligar, Slash, Whiscash, etc which makes it a terrifying balance breaker and a fantastic bait for these Pokemon (idk about you but I've been looking for a good Gligar and Slash bait for a bit now).

When it comes to the actual set, there are two variations that can be run, specifically being Choice Specs or Nasty Plot. Specs is a terrifying breaker which threatens out a large portion of the metagame, but Nasty Plot sets add an extremely powerful balance breaking element to what it can do, if you can get off a Nasty Plot on a predicted switch. Between the two of these sets, you can break through cores in a way that SD sets could never do.

So give Special Croak a try and tell me what you think! I guarantee you will get more mileage out of it than you ever will with Swords Dance, and I wouldn't be surprised if Special variants of Toxicroak end up cementing themselves as one of the best breakers in the tier.

 

[Pokeslice]

Hey everyone! It's been a while since we posted some bans, so on behalf of council, the moment you've all been waiting for...



Aerodactyl, Haunter, and Exeggutor have been quickbanned from BDSP NU!

- Aerodactyl quickly made a name for itself in the tier thanks to its blazing speed, powerful coverage, and limited counters being just Regirock, Sandslash, and Whiscash. On top of that, Life Orb Taunt variants became extremely popular alongside Choice Band sets, allowing Aerodactyl to break past many of its soft checks in the tier, such as Gligar, Miltank, and Solrock. Because of this, Aerodactyl was seen as not just a potent sweeper and breaker, but also extremely restrictive.

- In a tier with so few Ghost resists, Haunter became a terrifying presence to face off against, largely in part to its dual STAB combination and great speed tier. For a while, Choice Scarf was the most common item on Haunter, but recent set variations, such as Choice Specs, Wisp+Hex, SubDisable, and the rare Reflect Type, have added some more depth to what it can do. Although Haunter was not seen as clearly broken like the other two Pokemon banned, much of the playerbase commented on how restrictive it made team building feel, which led to its ban.

- Exeggutor was quite possibly the scariest Pokemon to see at preview thanks to how powerful Choice Specs Leaf Storm is. Coming off of a meaty 125 SpA stat, Choice Spec sets had almost no switch ins over the course of a game, and thanks to the plethora of opportunities it had to hit the field because of its solid bulk and great synergy with pivots, Exeggutor had countless moments where it could come in and break things open.

Tagging Kris to implement these changes on ladder :)



- Council also voted on Jynx again, which had been raised once or twice in the thread, but ultimately decided not to ban it for now. We will be keeping a close eye on it, and the rest of the metagame, following these giant shake ups.

Also, a huge thank you to poh and glock in my toyota for stepping in to help with this vote!

Voting Sheet (ty Meri for putting this together)

 

[Birdbrain103]

Double Dance Gligar

With Aerodactyl banned from the tier, this set lost one of it's biggest counters that could wear it down.
Gligar
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance

This set relies on opportunities gained from it's natural bulk and useful immunity to poison, alongside the tendency of the opponent to write it off as a simple pivot Gligar. These assumptions can give Gligar free setup when the opponent tries to counter your Gligar with their Gligar, or try removing hazards with defog and such.


Once fully set up, there are very few things that can stop it.

Priority
Ice Shard from the likes of and the up and coming can stop it. However they can't switch in
Additionally Abomasnow's Ice Shard is too weak to kill Gligar in one hit without a boosting item even if it deals a significant amount
252 Atk Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
Aqua Jet from SD Qwilfish can dent it, but it's nowhere strong enough to kill it in one hit
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 148-174 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All other priority is far too weak to deal enough to it, as it's quite capable of shrugging off even repeated Fake-outs from Kanghaskan
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 61-73 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- 42% chance to 4HKO
Bulky Pokemon / Hard Resists
There exists a couple relevant Pokemon bulky enough to live a hit, but most have no reliable recovery, and/or rely on status to deal with it


Can Wisp Gligar or Ice Punch it, though it takes a fair amount of chip damage in doing so

0 Atk Dusknoir Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 208-248 (76.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 145-172 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock




Ditto can deal a significant amount of damage, but Gligar can take out the imposter.
Further HP Investment to avoid being revenge-killed, or Webs support to slow down Ditto may need research.
Gligar's Acrobatics(Ditto's HP Stat, with max investment)
Ditto is burdened with a Choice Scarf and can only hit Gligar with half of Acrobatic's base power, though it can still deal a guarunteed amount of chip damage and live a single hit in most cases unless you run adamant.
+2 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 240-283 (80 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ditto's Acrobatics
+2 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 120-142 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock



One of the better counters, though could be very easily abused by Taunt or Sub variants of SD Gligar
+2 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery



One of the best counters, but can be abused by Taunt or Sub variants just like Weezing can
+2 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 99-117 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery



A natural resist to Flying and Ground coverage and can OHKO with Blizzard

+2 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 118-139 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

Ultimately this is a powerful setup sweeper that can run off with the entire game just off of free turns from hazard removal and switching.

 

[glock in my toyota]

ok. it's time to talk about p2.

Porygon2 @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball

I think it's officially time for this guy to stop being slept on. I never even understood from the get-go why this thing hasn't been considered a top-tier wall-breaker, despite its significantly strong showings on both ladder and throughout tournament play. With a Download boost and Choice Specs, P2's Sp. Atk. reaches an unimaginable 762, and it also carries perfect coverage for the tier, being able to hit every single thing in the tier at least neutrally. As we know, Normal-Type resists are hard to come by in NU, and the few that do exist far prefer to run physically defensive sets rather than specially defensive ones (Regirock, Rhydon, Dusknoir, Solrock). This essentially means that the pool of solid switch-ins to P2 consists exclusively of Specially Defensive Regirock, Probopass, or Wormadam-Trash. Common special walls like Lanturn and Miltank find themselves completely obliterated by easy Tri-Attack 2HKOs, or comfortable 3HKOs without a Download boost. P2 also finds a wealth of free turns, thanks largely to slow pivots like Lanturn and Gligar being able to generate momentum and give P2 an in. With Gligar being absolutely everywhere, P2 can abuse its ubiquity to generate free attacking turns to wreak havoc. Another plus of Specs P2 is that (unlike special nuke contemporaries Typhlosion and Glaceon) it is not rendered ineffective by Thick Fat walls like Miltank, or the rare Grumpig. For some reason, P2 still isn't being treated the way it should be - as the single best special nuke/wallbreaker in the tier, bar none.

Also wanted to call something to attention that I've been noticing a whole lot more as the meta has progressed, and something that I personally find to be the single most restrictive-on-teambuilding threat in the tier.

Typhlosion @ Expert Belt
Ability: Flash Fire / Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Eruption
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast

This set has been talked about in the past, but I think this thing benefits a lot more from Aerodactyl being gone than anybody could have expected. Not only was Aero the premier revenge killer for non-scarfed Typhlosion, but Aero being gone has also warped the speed-tiers of NU to be strongly in favor of Typhlosion. Not only is this because Aerodactyl is gone, but also because the departure of Aerodactyl and Exeggutor have both resulted in a rise in Jynx's power and popularity. Typhlosion, of course, has base 100 speed, which is absurdly good in this tier - made even more powerful by the prevalence of Jynx (whom it out-speeds) in the post-bans meta.

In terms of its dominance in the teambuilder, this just isn't even a question. There exists 2 hard-counters to Belt Typh: Altaria, and Corsola. The former takes 0 damage from anything and roosts it off, but is also just a horrible and nearly un-usable mon thanks to it losing both Defog and D-Dance. The latter takes decent damage from Focus Blast/EQ, but has both Recover and Regenerator to heal off these hits. It also directly threatens Typhlosion damage-wise, and can use the free turn to get Stealth Rock up. However, Corsola is *much* weaker against non-Typhlosion teams and can often be rendered as a momentum-drainer and is often too passive to be effective in a lot of games. Aside from these 2 answers, though, Typhlosion has the ability to strongly threaten all of the premier defensive staples in the tier such as Lanturn, Gligar, Regirock, and Skuntank, while also threatening to OHKO nearly any offensive mon that does not out-speed it.

With Aerodactyl and Haunter gone, it is of course natural that something would fill the vacuum left by these and be the new thing that's "impossible to prepare for". While Typhlosion being weak to Stealth Rock obviously hinders its effectiveness in practice, it is absolutely insane to prepare for in the builder. Also worth mentioning that Typhlosion's decent bulk makes it not completely fold to threats that out-speed it like Sneasel and Scyther, whereas another offensive threat like Jynx would fold to these revenge killers. I'm not sure that I'm convinced of Typhlosion being broken *quite yet*, but it's definitely the thing pinging most strongly on my radar at the moment, and I think that time will only make it stronger. Oh, and it bluffs Scarf, too.

 

[Realistic Waters]

Let's revive this thread!

NU viability rankings are pretty outdated so I'd offer my input with some nominations.

Rises:

A ---> A+ / S
Best fire type we have and maybe one of the best mons in the tier? Expert Belt works wonders, Specs hits like a truck and scarf is an option if you're desperate. Without using lesser known mons like Lunatone, Grumpig and Whiscash for example, this mon easily pressures majority of teams.

A- ---> A+ / S
Best Ice type and deserving of a rise. Jynx is top tier thanks to its power, speed and versatility. Choice Specs with energy ball and focus blast coverage have almost no switch ins, Scarf is great and outspeeds +2 Gorebyss, while NP/LO/sash are all viable too. Dry Skin comes in handy for checking offensive Qwilfish / Ludicolo giving it some utility. If you really hate Grumpig, you can drop energy ball for shadow ball.

B+ ---> A+
Works on all teambuilds, adequate coverage options, versatile to use defensive sets and can even be a set up sweeper. It Isn't forced out by Skuntank and can potentially OHKO after rocks. Will'o and Pressure annoy almost every mon too. Top 5 mon.

B+ ---> A-
Blanket check mon for half the tier. Despite it being a little passive, sometimes it's so annoying to take out without a fighting type / strong fighting coverage since it can just sit there all day. The speed tier is also super valuable right now getting the jump on timid Abomasnow / Gligar / Ludicolo / Poliwrath / Gorebyss etc

B+ ---> A-
The only reason why I'm not ranking it higher is because our hazard control is still kinda poop / don't blend well with Scyther. Anyway, Scarf Scyther is nascar af annoying most teams with good power / constant momentum to boot. CB is equally viable too and can be potentially hard to switch into. Most of the checks need to be a full health which can easily be exploited for Scyther's case.

B+ ---> A-
Basing this mostly off of special sets aka LO and Specs. It's the only decent wallbreaker that resists SR with utility alongside and now faces less competition with Haunter gone. Laughs at Kingler, can stomach Qwilfish and only needs a small amount of chip to break Gligar.

B+ ---> A-
It requires a small amount of support with hazard control and for some checks and counters like poliwrath, Regirock and Miltank but its positives easily outweigh the negatives. NU's fastest viable mon, pressures most balance teams and good vs offense. LO Swords dance can turn into a late game cleaner. CB is good too.

B ---> B+
Surprisingly difficult to switch into especially with LO, Victree OHKO's all 3 pokemon currently in S rank. Scarf is also equally viable.

B- ---> A-
Takes advantage of those passive mons with download which makes tri attack and coverage hit incredibly hard. If you don't have a ghost type / bulky normal resist you're sacking a mon each time. Fortunately, it also benefits from having good bulk so it isn't forced out by faster attackers if that happens to be the scenario.

B- ---> B+
It mostly acts as a blanket check similar to Miltank but has a better match up vs specific top tier threats like Typhlosion, Skuntank, E-vire, Regirock and Lanturn whilst stopping Volt Switch. It also has the benefit of not being so passive with options like scald, ice beam and earth power.

C+ ---> B-
Leafeon is arguably better than Shiftry for SD. Faster and bulkier for more set up opportunites and can OHKO Skuntank at +2 (albeit bascially turns into a trade off). Furthermore, its a viable sub seed user as shown in BDSP PL. here.

C+ ---> B-
Lanturn being common doesn't stop Raichu from being viable, it only takes a little support for NP Raichu to be effective since it often naturally outspeeds almost everything. At +2, it has the opportunity to 2HKO anyway and Lanturn can't pivot out. Stab + FB + Surf hits everything for neutral damage other than Victreebel so not much wants to switch in.

C ---> C+/B-
This nomination is based on Choice Scarf. The only relevant targets you miss out are Sneasel. Scarf Ice beam OHKO's Gligar and 2HKO bulky Slash, Earthquake for coverage and two rock stabs (Head Smash & SF rock slide) still makes it difficult to switch into.. Here's a replay of me using it in BDSP PL here

Drops:

S ---> A+
Clear Body is now useable. I don't hate Regirock but sometimes it's a bit passive so things like Sandslash and Gligar almost come in for free and other times, Regirock often gets work down by pivots.

A ---> B+
NP + Eball give it a niche over Typhlosion but that only tends to be useful when you're at +2 meaning you have to sacrifice a turn to be threatening most of the time. Walled by Miltank too anyway.

A---> B-
Jynx > Abomasnow > Glaceon > Frost. Being able to trick lanturn is cool but that's where the fun stops. Pretty outclassed with an unreliable ice stab.

A- ---> B+/B
To be honest, i would only consider DD Rhydon to be its only viable set. At least that way it can pressure Gligar and friends.

A- ---> B-
Mostly outclassed by Jynx (slower & weaker) who does all the same offensive sets but better.

B+ ---> C+
Pelipper = Water Gligar. It's barely ok. It sucks because it's good on paper rather than in practice. Moveslot syndrome too because you want knock off for chip, hurricane for pressuring or u-turn for pivoting on Lanturn on your last slot. Some useful scenarios over something like Lanturn would be beating things like Poliwrath with Air Slash / Hurricane and beating Gligar but the SR sucks hard when you're trying to check things.

B+ ---> C+
The only scenario where I could imagine Sp Def Camerupt doing anything would be checking special skuntank and the uncommon Weezing. Other than that, I generally can't think of a reason why I would ever want to use that set. Too frail / typing isn't favourable for anything else in the meta. Camerupt is best suited for a Trick Room team which isn't really anything amazing.

B ---> B-/C+
Mostly there to check/counter specific things like Sneasel/Scyther but in the long run, it's not very good and usually overpowered / passive.. SF offensive just suffers from being too slow and frail to be used competitively.

B ---> C+
Similar to Rotom-Frost, Electric/Fire coverage isn't enough but Switcheroo is still cool and 105 speed + Scarf is neat. Raichu is better tho.

B- ---> C-/Unrank
Terrible defensively, weak to rocks and most mons have adequate coverage or power to break through. Offensively, you might as well use Rapidash.

B- ---> C-
Choice Scarf Monferno is not all that good. High base power stabs don't save it from being pathetically weak. It can't even OHKO Bellossom. I'd only use this as a last resort scarf mon if I was really desperate.

C+ ---> C-
Weird mon but hey, it gets knock off. I've tried it a bunch of times and it's fun... but mostly just preferred Miltank or Kanga /Ursaring.

C+ ---> C-
Bulky passive "set up sweeper" I'm not sure if going into PP wars is a niche lol but it walls Victreebel and Bellossom so that's cool. I still like Swalot more tho.

C- ---> Unrank
Fun meme

C- ---> Unrank
Another fun meme ?_?

New Mons:

B+
B+ is fine for both of them. Ditto does Ditto stuff lol... but it's presence on the battlefield alone stops most teams wanting to set up. Still a decent pick for a team as a revenge killer. Hitmonlee is also pretty good. Decently versatile and can potentially blow through unprepared teams without Gligar or something.

RIP:

 

[glock in my toyota]

Hi all, I don't have any mons in particular that I want to discuss regarding a new VR, so I figured I'd just post a personal VR that I made to help some of my BDSPPL teammates build test teams. it isnt perfect im sure, but it serves as a reflection of where I think the meta is, as well as how it has changed with the larger amount of high-profile tournament games thanks to PL.

S Rank

best remover and arguably best rocker, great defensive typing
specs is one of the best nukes, scarf is good, ebelt has like no counters

A+ Rank

everywhere; amazing pivot and excellent resists + elec immunity
consistent remover, great typing. Plot/defog >> defensive sets
fat guy. Subpunch is good but fat willo is better. nuisance
most consistent rocker and normal resist
similar to typhlosion, can run spex/scarf well, NP is great, LK/3atks is great too
normal resists are sparse, fake out eats offense generally
best nuke in tier

A Rank

consistent remover, decent defensive utility. SD/Spin also quite good and lets it take advantage of Gligar who normally hard-walls
defensive sets are okay, SD is really great vs BO if they dont have jynx
balance shredder w/ ebelt. EQ for Lant/IP for Gligar. The few things that hard-wall get volted out on
best speed control in tier(?). Ace/Uturn hits hard even without CB, and CB sets are fun to use too. SD is not good
consistent normal resist/rocker, immune to eq which makes it more consistent to switch in to stuff like kanga. Has reliable recovery, too

A- Rank

great dual stab. Can usually afford adamant bc the few things that outspeed ada like scyther/jumpluff get ohko’d by shard after rocks. CB and SD both great
great typing, knock is knock, strength sap to preserve hp
physical sets are horrible. NP/specs hits really hard. Good on paper, underwhelming in practice. Still a solid breaker because fighting types are rare
fat, good at its job. Good resists/immune
defensive is ok, offensive breaker is p good thanks to EQ baiting Lant. subbu is alright too. Great resists
ice-type porygon2, walled by thick fat stuff
momentum drain, but very good special wall that answers typh somewhat and glace completely. Consistent rocker/heal bell and can spread status
has surprisingly performed super well in tournament. spdef is great as a budget-lanturn that has better damage output and arguably better typing. it also takes advantage of opposing lanturns! DD sets are also making a bit of a comeback and are worth being scared of in teambuilder

B+ Rank

will-o + great speed tier always makes something viable. SD is meh
consistent rocker/normal resist, threatens all removers and other rockers offensively thanks to avalanche. Double dance is cool too
specs and scarf are good. Healing wish support is hard to come by
predictable subcm sweeper but can still do its job. Probably better now that skunk is less ubiquitous due to haunter being banned
decent nuke, sat on by gligar/weezing
team preview god. Some matchups it eats, some it fails
normal resists are pretty rare generally speaking. Can run SD toxic orb or just be a flame orb breaker
good speed tier, sash is nice to have for lategame situations/safety net
underrated. Subplot is decent, subwillo disable is fun too. Great speedtier
god speed tier, sd/sleep is very good at its job as long as it doesnt miss
hits like a truck, bad speed tier. Agility 3atks can be dangerous af

B Rank

does what it always does in every gen past 5. Solid i guess?
offensive remover, threatens rockers, very versatile
another overhyped guy. Good resists as pure grass but passive af and takes forever to get going with bulky QD sets
lanturn is everywhere, can still do its job somewhat
idk why this thing was so hyped early on. Defenses are meh, passive af
good scarfer, specs hits hard. Subplot can be good against slow builds but typh is everywhere and always RKs
veil setter. SD is pretty good too. Idk about scarf but i imagine its decent
subseed is really fun and surprisingly bulky. Rain sweeper is too inconsistent, just doesnt hit hard enough
like gorebyss but slightly worse. Can't be burned which is neat
niche, but a good answer to stuff like glace/p2. Slow volt is good

B- Rank

you must be desperate for typhlosion answers
cromuk is ok because the only 2 steel types are pretty bad. Every other set gets eaten by gligar
can be ok, excellent speedtier. Encore+plot is fun, plot 3 attacks is decent too. Just too weak to be consistently great
yeah
speedtier is decent, offensive grass is good. Being RK’d by typh suuux
fatty, spams knock off. Physdef bpress/knock/restalk is p good actually
pretty much just worse than gligar
okay rocker. Normal resist with no recovery. Walls sneasel i guess?
only steel-type not named probopass. Horrible mon but does wall stuff like glace/p2 so i guess it gets a mention
offensively awesome vs common regi/lant/glig cores, but just too slow and barely too weak to capitalize on its offensive prowess. Bad rocker
meh scarfer

 

[Pokeslice]

Hey everyone! It's been a few months since any last update to the tier has happened, but as the generation begins to end, we wanted to get going with BDSP NU again! Feel free to voice your thoughts on the metagame, VR, or any new drops here, and check out our ladder :)

Before I go through the newest Viability Rankings update, big shoutouts to jawabarat, glock in my toyota, and Realistic Waters for being added to council a bit ago and, along with Aawin, voting on this slate! The updated Viability Rankings can be found here.

Also, the sample teams have been updated post BDSPPL and can be found here! Keep an out on them within the next few days as the meta adapts to the new drops in Mesprit, Cradily, and Absol.

A VR Rundown

S Rank:

S Rank

- Gligar provides an endless amount of utility between Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Defog, and U-Turn while acting as a Volt and Ground immunity. It's literally the Lando-T of BDSP NU and can be thrown on just about every team.
- With a blazing fast speed tier at 328 paired with great coverage and high BP moves, Typhlosion makes for a fantastic Scarfer and breaker, capable of sweeping after some chip on the Fire resists or just blasting through teams on its own. The recently discovered Expert Belt set only adds to its breaking potential.
- Jynx is a fast Ice and Psychic type in a tier without real resistances to either STAB, something only made more problematic by Nasty Plot, Lovely Kiss, and its ability to run both choiced items effectively. Sub sets are especially scary since it allows Jynx to set up on opposing Lanturn.

A Rank:

A+ Rank

- Lanturn is a powerful pivot privy to an almost unblockable Volt Switch because of its dual STAB in Scald. At the same time, Lanturn is extremely bulky on the special side and can soft check almost every special attacker in the tier.
- Although Normal resists aren't mandatory anymore, Regirock still cements its spot as a fantastic physical wall and Stealth Rocker. Recently, SpDef sets have seen more use in order to deal with Porygon2 and Typhlosion a bit better.
- Dusknoir is an extremely threatening tank that can, and will, sit on your entire team throughout a match spreading Wisps as it does it. Sneak is nice priority to have against offense, but EQ and Ice punch can all add elements to its game. Dusknoir also has a powerful SubPunch set that can break holes through a lot of teams.
- As people explored past defensive Defog sets, it became very clear that Nasty Plot Skuntank is a force to be reckoned with, often capable of powering through traditional resists. Its last slot is usually free, adding the ability for utility moves like Defog, Toxic, or Taunt to be used.

A Rank

- Scrappy Fake Out is an awesome tool into opposing offense, and unless you face a Solrock, the combo of priority, a strong STAB in Double Edge, and Earthquake will always do work.
- Sandslash is one of the few Pokemon with removal in the tier, and Sword Dance sets are a surprise, yet powerful, sweeper.
- Porygon2 might be the best breaker in the tier when paired with Choice Specs, but Agility and defensive P2 deserve praise, too.

A- Rank

- Expert Belt Electivire is fantastic at breaking down Gligar + Lanturn + Regirock cores, but it has enough counterplay where it can sometimes be useless in certain match ups, like against Whiscash.
- Drifblim always has potential to cheese out a win against you, although I believe that defensive sets deserve some exploration.
- By far the best answer to Kanga, Solrock is a cool pick for those who don't want a Ground weak Rock-type.
- With Thick Fat and instant recovery, Miltank makes for a nice answer to the many powerful Ice-types in the tier.
- A super fast Pokemon with an Ice/Dark STAB combination in this tier? Sign me up.
- Ever since people realized Special Croak is the way to go, it's turned into a super nice breaker.
- Whiscash is easily the best answer to Lanturn, and also extremely hard to break without a Grass-type. It also dominates Regirock and Gligar too, among other top threats.

B Rank:

B+ Rank

- Hitmonlee can throw off powerful Reckless HJK's, but it's frail and has a bunch of counters in the tiers nany Fight resists.
- Weezing is a pretty good physical wall who can throw off Wisps and set T-Spikes, but the prevalence of Poison-types negates that a bit.
- Bellossom can act as a threatening sweeper because of its access to Quiver Dance and Strength Sap.
- Chime is a bit tough to use in a Skuntank meta, but it's one of the few clerics we have and can sweep with Cosmic Power sets.
- Specs Freeze Dry has no switch ins.
- A good speed tier and coverage combined with Nasty Plot make Ninetales an underrated breaker or sweeper.
- Although our only Spiker, SD sets are truly what keeps it in B+
- Defensive sets can be super problematic, especially Sub Circle Throw shenanigans.
- Ursaring is a disgustingly strong breaker with perfect coverage that's only held back by its speed tier and susceptibility to chip.
- Victreebel is super underrated, boasting multiple viable sets like Scarf, LO Special, or even SD. One of my personal favorites :)

B Rank

- Ice/Grass is always scary offensively, especially in a tier with no Steel-types, but Abomasnow is yet another one hindered by speed and Stealth Rocks.
- Jumpluff is a fascinating mon which boasts a nice speed tier and a whole slew of resistances that allow it to set up a Sub, SD, or Leech Seed consistently on Gligar, Lanturn, and others, but the base 55 Atk just isn't so appealing, although Acrobatics helps a lot.
- Kingler hits hard af, but the extreme frailty on the Special side can make setting up difficult.
- Grass/Water seems really cool on paper, especially when paired with the other stuff Ludicolo can do (Specs, LO Rain Dance, SubSeed), but it often just falls short and is weird to build with.
- As good as set up offense is in the tier, which is meh.
- A really cool mon, but sadly Mime is usually outclassed by Jynx because of the speed tier.
- A Pokemon that seems very very threatening, until you realize that Lanturn is amazing. Trick is a cool pick to bait Lanturn though.
- Rhydon deez nuts Aawin.
- Gorebyss seems threatening, but just about every popular Scarfer beats it and it won't break Lanturn.
- Piloswine has a super powerful STAB combo, especially in a tier where Gligar, Lanturn, and Regirock make up a common core, but it's outsped by all of them, making what Pilo wants to do even harder. There's also no Eviolite.
- A cool Jynx, Typh, and Fight answer in one, Grumpig is a nice compression mon with good coverage.

B- Rank

- Shiftry has seen some use as an offensive Defogger, but don't expect too great results.
- Floatzel's fantastic speed tier allows it to be a fun breaker, although its power can be underwhelming.
- Trashdam is the best Steel-type we have!
- Effectively a worse Rhydon, who already isn't great, Golem's niche is as a suicide lead with Custap Explosion.
- Kadabra's great speed tier, Magic Guard, and Psychic STAB allow it to do some work into the tier.
- Probopass can be a nice alternative rocker for teams looking for that Steel-type pivot or to trap random Trashdam.
Strong Rock STAB in a tier where the Ground is often neutral to it is very nice.

C Rank:

C+ Rank

- Knock + U-Turn + a Fire resist are nice traits.
- Another Steel, although this one is really better used as a Sneasel answer with Intimidate. LO isn't horrible either.
- Like Pelipper, but you trade Knock and Roost for a neutrality to Stealth Rocks.
Raichu - Raichu can often go ham against teams without a Lanturn.
Smeargle - Suicide lead stuff.
Dodrio - It wishes it had U-Turn, but Dodrio is still fast and strong into matchups without Regirock.
- A very under explored Pokemon, Rapidash's Wisp two attack set is currently its trademark, but SD variants deserve some love too.

C Rank

- Thicc Rock-type + Regen is a good combo in this tier.
Camerupt - Camerupt originally made its name as a Fire-type who threatened the two main resists in Regirock and Lanturn.
- Switcheroo for Lanturn is a great party trick, but its important to acknowledge that the speed and ability to hit Grass-types is huge.
- Tbh, I have no clue what this does besides being a SpDef rocker, but I bet it's unexplored.
- A grass type who has access to SD and EQ, making it a really cool fat wincon that can touch Skuntank.
- The only Fighting-type who has U-Turn allows it to be an ok Scarfer.
- Why over Typh?
- Just if you ever wanted Solrock, but more specially defensive with a worse movepool.
- Criminally underrated is all I'll say. Knock + Body Slam is a great combination and nothing will KO this.
- Muk is a nice tanky Poison-type.
- Like Gorebyss, but worse.
- Something I've been meaning to play around with, Lapras has access to busted STAB Freeze Dry and other coverage, although the weakness to Stealth Rock and neutrality to Fire moves holds it back.

C- Rank

- A spinner that has Knock Off is cool I guess.
- An Ice-type with coverage and bulk can be semi successful here.
- Don't Fuckle with Shuckle, but it's outclassed by Smeargle.
- A Grass-type with Regen and Knock Off.

 

[Pokeslice]

After no deliberation at all, Absol has been unanimously quickbanned from BDSP NU! Tagging Kris to implement this when possible :)

- Absol's overwhelming power off of a STAB Knock Off and a 130 Atk stat proved to be far too strong, especially in a tier without any real Dark resist. Access to Swords Dance, a solid speed tier, and Sucker Punch only intensified this problem, leading to its unanimous departure from the tier.

Voting Sheet

Other Pokemon to Watch
- P2 is another Pokemon that's progressively seen discussion among council members. Do people thing that P2 is too much for the tier? How are others dealing with it?

and - Both of these two are brand new drops and have massive potential in the current tier. What sets has everyone been running around with? Are any of them too strong for the tier, or just fine?

 

[Pokeslice]

As the BDSP circuit begins again, the BDSP NU council has unanimously decided to ban Mesprit! Tagging Kris to implement this



Mesprit could do it all thanks to its colorful movepool, overwhelming bulk, and coveted Psychic-typing in a tier without many Psychic answers. Answering Mesprit got even more difficult when you realized having an answer to Nasty Plot, Choiced, and Stealth Rock utility sets all required different counterplay. All in all, Mesprit was too much for the tier.

Voting Sheet

Jawabarat	Aawin	Glock	Pokeslice
ban	ban	ban	ban

 

[TyCarter]

Now that PL is over, I'll prob make a quick nom or two since I think this tier is in need of a major VR update,

-> A/A+, Glaceon is a mon that has found a lot of success in the tier since freeze-dry and ice beam with Never Melt-Ice alone completely farms a lot of common lanturn+gligar defensive cores, specs is not that great on Glaceon imo. people did wise up and started running Miltank more to deal with it. It also can run wishtect if it wants to as it was something I've definitely messed with and it gives Glaceon some extra utility. It is a bit slow but plenty of viable pivots that can enable safer entry for Glaceon and allow it to safely click.

-> A-/A, a very cool mon in the tier that has rapid spin and decent coverage even if it has issues breaking and . Generally found it easy enough to cover that with plenty of teammates that can threaten. Fighting types are pretty solid and it has priority too.

-> A-/A, a decent wall that can be a rocker that doesn't instantly get annoyed by and has actual recovery. It does bully pretty hard which works well in its favor. Extremely vulnerable to the ice types that run this tier however and you will need to find ways to compensate for that. Other downside is that its a rock type that doesn't handle Typhlosion well.

-> A, and being prominent enough presences gives Lanturn some issues. running EQ normally also makes it not as safe of a switch-in as one might think. The main benefit it has over it's the other defensive water in is Volt Switch. I definitely think it's a bit overrated at the moment. A lot of teams have adapted to Lanturn pretty well.

Also ban and , both mons severely limit teambuilding in the tier and makes building pretty ass at times. Jynx moreso than Typhlosion.

 

[jawabarat]

I'm very proud to announce that I'm the new BDSP NU Tier Leader! I definitely agree this tier badly needs a VR update; I'm going to get that out ASAP and also get a new set of samples together since the current ones are all pre-Cradily.

For now I'm going to be posting my personal post-BDSPPL VR (in no particular order within each grade) with thoughts on every mon. I'm also reaching out to every NU starter who won a game this year, people I know supported/built for the starters, and other people whose opinions on the tier I trust and value. We'll hopefully get an official VR together in the next couple days.

S
Dual stab + lovely kiss + nasty plot is immensely consistent at forcing progress, especially against balance/fat structures. There will never be a matchup where Jynx won't do anything.

S-
Very consistent remover and blanket check to lots of physical mons, amazing pivot, and knock off in a tier where there isn't much knock off. Only issue is it's an easy entry point for scary special breakers like P2 and Glaceon. Double dance is also funny.
The most splashable mon in the tier. Consistent rocks and sponges everything. Really has to be spdef, saw physdef a few times in PL and it sucks.

A+
Same as ever. Belt breaks everything not named Whiscash. Hates rocks which are way harder to keep off with Cradily keeping them up on every defogger.
Splashable pivot + blanket special answer. Doesn't love Cradily + the resurgence in Glaceon, but still very consistent.
Consistent defog but make it offensively threatening. Plot/fog/dual stab is the standard but taunt and toxic could both be decent.

A
I think Glaceon really found its set in the Daves' Nevermeltice one. Harder to deny it clicking the stab it wants to spam than it is for P2.
Better into Miltank but worse into Regirock than Glaceon, no rocks weakness. Its stab is better once it can spam it imo but it's less immediately free than Glaceon's.
Quick feet is better than guts imo, usually gets a kill or two into any team but rarely does more than that because it'll kill itself too fast.
Really threatening for balance/fat. glock in my toyota found its best set in volt/ice punch/eq/low kick or cross chop. Weirdly doesn't need wild charge, you can just volt out on stuff like Weezing/Dusknoir and just wear them down with that + rocks.
didn't see loads of use this PL, but still really good. One of our only ghosts, never dies vs fat, spreads status, weirdly threatens like 60% damage or a burn on most offense teams and isn't ohkod by anything.
Consistent rocks and threatens all removers bar Hitmonlee. Less bulky than Regirock and makes you weaker to Jynx.

A-
Best Glaceonproofing in the tier with thick fat and a rare cleric, but immensely passive and 4mss. All its abilities are really good.
Balance is cowering after an SD, shame it can't jet Jynx. Can run tspike and fish for no skunk if you really want.
Suffers a lot from how good Cradily is at keeping rocks up. Still a nice pivot if you can keep them off and the best revenge killer in the tier though.
Resttalk is one of the best Typhlosion and Electivire answers, DD isn't the most consistent but great in some matchups. Likes that Cradily means lots of teams have a grass type that doesn't resist EQ, but you're 5-6 down at preview if you load DD Whiscash into Leafeon or Bellossom.

B+
No fairy resists, easy A+ if it had Moonblast. Healing wish is really cool and unique, Trick lets it still contribute despite otherwise thudding into stuff like Lanturn and Cradily. Trick scarf/specs is a lot better than plot.
Cool breaker but has to hit Focus Blasts and struggles to find chances to plot. SD is awful, don't.
Abuses a lot of the most common defensive mons, subseed is really tough for some teams to deal with.
Likes Cradily causing a decline in Leafeon/Bello. Can substitute on a lot of stuff, but won't always threaten once it's subbed up since it's quite weak and has low power stabs outside of focus punch. Encore is fun.
:Victreebell: I swear this thing is still good when I'm not cting with it. Specs, mixed life orb, SD are all cool. Won't get chances to come in against more aggro teams though.
B
Seen other people ranking it lower than this but I think it's slept on. Really fast, can afford to run adamant, revenges everything, great offensive typing, even an emergency Jynx switchin. Horrible defensive typing and made out of papier mache though.
Agility is terrifying into offense or SD is terrifying into fat, can still at least knock things in matchups it blanks into. Really ought to be running X-scissor as we learnt in the semis
Rare tspike setter, spreads burns and no physical attackers hit it supereffectively. Also gets abused by anything with substitute and lets in every special threat.
Nice resistances, sub on Lanturn is cool with subseed. Rain dance is inconsistent but good when it works, can still scald fish and be annoying when rain doesn't 6-0.
B-
Matchup fish, good resistances.
Another massive matchup fish mon. Devastating into no Glig/Dusknoir (if it hits HJK), useless if you do load into them.
To quote glock - "you must be desperate for Typhlosion answers"
Veil is underexplored imo, really nice offensive typing but horrible defensively
C+
Started a 2-man Monferno revolution with TBIC106 .Good into offense with scarf, deadweight into fat. Uturn bot that doesn't impale itself on rocks like Scyther is nice. Overheat is the best last move because it's so frail that -def doesn't matter anyway and you can knock yourself into blaze with recoil.
It's ass but there are no dragon resists so it's decent.
Passive and not that bulky with no recovery, but very good role compression.
Cool offensive rocker and CB is fun, hard to build with though.
good into offense, useless into fat beyond switcherooing something.

C

webs I guess
^
Fallen off a lot since the early days. Still good into offense with fake out but even then they probably have a glue regi or gligar that you blank into.
Funny into fat teams.
wish it got leaf storm
Trick room + healing wish is a niche
hope they don't bring a lanturn... or anything scarf... or any of the things that still don't die at +2...
SD is surprisingly threatening into fatter teams and it might be underexplored, but it's hard to support. I know the Daves tried to build with it into me for finals but gave up.
Consistent rocks lead and memento for HO.
CM is inconsistent but cool when it works. Just not strong enough even into neutral targets never mind Skuntank imo.
electric type, lanturn, etc I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. Nice speed tier though.
Raichu but slower, worse coverage, and switcheroo.
Slow volt switch and resisting ice is cool, but otherwise abysmal defensive typing compared to Regirock. Maybe if your team is _really_ weak to ice.
Trick room lad, subsd edgequake is hard to switch into.
C-
Really hates the ubiquity of Lanturn. Analytic is cool into no-Lanturn matchups but you could just use P2.
Gorebyss but worse

 

[jawabarat]

Jynx Suspect Vote

The council is holding a vote on whether to ban Jynx. Jynx is a hugely consistent progress maker, and not losing to Jynx is one of the biggest considerations for building in this tier. Its fantastic offensive typing, speed, and ability to find chances to Nasty Plot through the switches it forces and ability to put opponents to sleep make it very difficult to deal with. The drop of Cradily since last year's BDSPPL also gives Jynx a new victim. Its passable Choice Scarf and Choice Specs sets deserve consideration, even if neither are as consistent as Focus Sash. Its only reliable switch-ins when boosted are the fringe Grumpig and Probopass.

Jynx is held back by its terrible 65/35/95 bulk, weakness to Stealth Rock in a tier where removal is very difficult, and the inaccuracy of Lovely Kiss. Despite this, the upsides of Jynx are so high that it remains a top tier threat.

The council, BDSP NU Open finalists, and players who started at least 3 and won at least 1 match in NU in BDSPPL II are invited to vote. A 60% supermajority will be required to ban.

jawabarat (council, BDSPPL)
glock in my toyota (council)
Pokeslice (council)
Elfuseon (NU Open)
AquaticCarlie (NU Open)
Trogba Trogba (NU Open, BDSPPL)
Ryuji (BDSPPL)
MangoSteak (BDSPPL)
Banbadoro (BDSPPL)
Beraldo (BDSPPL, declined invitation to vote)

The result will be announced on Monday evening +1.

 

[jawabarat]

- Jynx is banned from BDSP NU, with a 77.7% supermajority voting to ban and the remaining 22.3% abstaining.

Sample teams and a VR are still on the way, but both will be impacted by the best mon in the tier going.

Tagging Marty / Kris to implement

 

[Xilefi]

Life goes on and BDSP NU Council is living some changes.

Pokeslice and glock in my toyota are stepping down from their position. Thanks for your contribution to the tier and BDSP in general, much appreciated.

On the bright side, ENuGLAND continues to lead the tier. Welcome to Trogba Trogba in the BDSP NU Council!

 

[jawabarat]

Very happy to welcome Trogba to the council, brexit means brexit wtf is seasoning etc

We will have new post-Jynx samples ready in time for this year's nu open. In the mean time I don't think we need a full new VR but I'll still do a quick rundown of how losing Jynx is likely to affect things.

Beneficiaries of the Jynx ban:

Becomes a lot scarier when the only naturally faster Aqua Jet absorber is gone. This guy is gonna be a lot harder to revenge after a Swords Dance now.

One of the big draws of Regirock over Cradily is not being weak to Ice. You still don't want a team that gets shredded by Glaceon, but Glaceon is easier to offensively check and keep out than Jynx.

Has a few great traits like tspike, wisp, and pretty much no physical attackers that hit it supereffectively. It gets a lot easier to justify on a team when it doesn't make you weaker to Jynx. It will also be useful against the much-improved Qwilfish.

I really want to emphasise that this guy is not a like-for-like Jynx replacement. Without Lovely Kiss it's way harder to find a chance to plot, and with worse spatk and lower power stab in Dazzling Gleam you're just not as threatening if you do get one. It's also a lot better with scarf/specs than plot imo. Still, it's a hard mon to stack with Jynx so it will see more use.

Losers of the Jynx ban:

is a bad mon but it walled 3 good mons in Jynx, Typhlosion, and Glaceon. Now it only walls 2 (yes Glaceon can shadow ball but if you deny it clicking an ice move that's still probably enough).

loses its only bit of tenuous defensive utility.

resisting both Jynx stabs was its whole thing, not really worth it over Regirock just to resist Glaceon/Porygon2 imo.

The broad theme is that it frees up mons that have upsides, but you couldn't previously have too many on one team as they'd make you unacceptably weak to Jynx. I'm looking forward to this year's open/PL and hopefully seeing some new builds in a post-Jynx world

 

[jawabarat]

Updated samples are just about here in time to rfn r1 if you're so inclined:

Electivire bo by me

wish Glaceon balance by TyCarter

specs Glaceon voltturn by Trogba Trogba

stall by dunoks , edited by TBIC106

Lack of post-Jynx games makes it difficult to have that many samples for now. If you've made anything you like feel free to share it during or after NU open and I'll happily make it a sample until VR based tiering shakes things up.

 

[demirab1]

just posting some teams i had prepped for the 2024 open
https://pokepast.es/e700dac56e79dba7
https://pokepast.es/3b5ded73a29e7cf4
https://pokepast.es/6dffe56aadcb91a5
https://pokepast.es/6c33acab037fd017

bonus trash (good ideas, bad execution)
https://pokepast.es/acdf2ee435bae502
https://pokepast.es/3474430eeadb41e5

i had also made this resource that i should've posted here like 1 year ago, before tiering system changes were imminent
sample sets
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pm4Pi3DnbEGWqN-tZc0eSUg4D8w0BRkq66W_CNd6WCQ/htmlview

 

[DiannieRatson]

Diannie’s BDSPPL III games vs 3 consecutive HOs..and VR post below….

It seems there was a breakthrough that I wasn’t aware of that’s why all my last 3 matches in bdsppl have been versus HOs..It started with my Week 6 match vs sleid.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-777136

I lead Gligar coz you know…Ursaring and stuffs. Faced smeargle lead and decided to sleep sac my only resttalker Lanturn. Then t2 I rolled rest…sad. Even when I rolled scald, it only did 40%..Then my lanturn woke up when I clicked sleep talk again and fsr sleid hard in on rhydon..but then I noticed sleid took a lot of time thinking in which I didn’t understand even until now...coz I’m also already convinced that ursaring sweeps since I didn’t have a scarfer and there’s sticky web. My gligar doesn’t have defog coz its knock off eq roost uturn.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-778368

Next is vs jawa. I still didn’t know at this time that grass types is immune to spore…or should I say I forgot this mechanic (coz yk in rby/gsc grass are not immune to stun spore and stuffs..) So I lead my scarf mime, tricked smeargle, then sent Gligar in vs ursaring obv. Turn 6 I didn’t know why p2 is in the ho then learned oh…agility…I’m adamant with ursaring so if that p2 has no hp/def ev investment, cc ohko guarantee. Although tbf I wasn’t at total disadvantage yet. Jawa used the scarf smeargle to outspeed my ursaring and set rocks before revenge killing with aqua jet qwil. Then the game just ends in there and notice how I wasnt even able to utilize shiftry? It’s because I also forgot to consider that along with life orb taking down jawa’s qwil hp itself..Anyway jawa also used this same HO team Week 1 but the stuff like agility p2 and sash gorebyss wasn’t revealed so those caught my lack of knowledge in this tier..

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-779760

Then lastly vs lpz. This game has no bearing in the finals mu anyway but I still thought that ye I should use some of the mons that I havent tried yet aka piloswine, solrock, victreebel, electivire, and monferno. I have victreebel to block spore but nah…sticky web got me. My scarf monferno didn’t have enough speed to outspeed Guts jolly ursaring lmao coz I put too much on spatk. The diff here is abomasnow and typh compared to jawa’s gorebyss and qwil. Idk if this was lanturn’s effect lol.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-779812

Not my game. This is jawa vs sleid week 8. Jawa now uses Masquerain and uh aurora veil abomasnow, and there’s the other HO mons in rhydon, qwilfish, and gligar. Mr. Mime is here too. Meanwhile, sleid had Kangaskhan, its fake out and since it is faster than smeargle, it’s one of the few reliable answers. Scrappy ability also prevented intim’s atk debuff. Rhydon was in there and kangakhan could drain punch/eq so jawa doubled back to masquerain as sleid sent ludicolo in. Idk why ludicolo is faster than masquerain though so there might be something weird in here….but anyways its gg once sticky web is in coz it would be hard to defog despite sleid trying to double gligar in.

I would like to give some thoughts about my prev matches but I should have done that when’s the games are still fresh in my mind but now..idk what insights I had when I were playing those. So here’s the VR portion now

Post BDSPPL III Thoughts for BDSP NU VR

S tier

Gligar - It being able to nullify Regirock seems huge to me. Forget defog since at least in my games, it’s hard to find an opp to click it anyways coz Gligar also invites the Glace’s, P2’s, etc in. And I feel like Knock Off has been great for progress. Earthquake Roost looks undroppable. So maybe defog/knock off/u turn are the ones contending for that two remaining slot. Anyways it is also still a blanket physical defense check so helps a lot especially to control Kangaskhan despite this mon still falling to +2 Status-boosted too Facade from Ursaring. HO also appreciates it being able to double dance plus it’s ground + flying typing is nice. It can come in versus Lanturn that you are sure to click Volt Switch and voila…opp trying to make progress is nullified.


A+ tier

Typhlosion - It’s blazing speed is still crucial despite it having limited entries coz consistent rocks wears it down. This mon made me spam whiscash. Could ebelt but I also seen specs and scarf. Scarf prob coz of the annoying sticky web too. Tough getting choices lock though..


Regirock - Remained as one of the most splashable mon in the tier. Yeah gligar is annoying because it also is immune to twave but Regirock could use that to make the opp moves more predictable. Consistent rocks and despite having full investment to spdef in terms of evs, it still tanks Kangaskhan’s attack and Sturdy helps to be guaranteed not to get ohko by Ursaring.

Lanturn - There’s a reason why there was a game this pl with Lanturn mirror…Who would want to switch in versus Scald and even if it can, Lanturn can just stay or volt switch out. Toxicroak can np in front of it but it is still a slow pivot that would sent in a psychic to threaten opp. Eq poliwhirl? Just be sure Lanturn clicks Scald..Cradily is a grass so yeah I already mentioned in my teamdump on why I think having a grass in teams is important. This is a blanket spdef check in which despite typh eq still annoys it, it should win most times. Just need a diff check vs Glaceon.

Skuntank - Another defogger that could also be an offensive threat. Dark typing is nice versus Psychics and it learns Sucker Punch too. I tried both physical, special np set, and defensive sets.

Ursaring - Getting two kills in a game is huge imo…and it also forces teams to have a mon quicker than its Quick Feet. It also means teams with Regirock needs another check to the likes of P2 since Ursaring will worn Regirock down even if it dies to Toxic. Flame orb guts work too

A tier

Cradily - At first, I thought that this is the best defensive mon in the tier with rocks. Grass/Rock typing is nice and it has recovery move. I’ve seen seed set too and Storm Drain is important too to not get swept by SD Qwil Aqua Jet. Thus, I used Hitmonlee week 1 coz I thought having spin is better than defog but Hitmonlee is just flawed.

Porygon2 - Another special attacker but instead of getting walled by Miltank, Regirock walls it instead. Although tbf, Regirock doesnt have Milk Drink so it could be worn down. Not being weak to rocks also helps. Getting choiced-lock is tough though since if you click stab, Dusknoir gets in while the rest of attacks will be relatively weaker.

Glaceon - Another mon that is victim of rocks. Unlike Typh though, it is slower. Miltank also nullifies it. But without a Thick Fat mon, good luck trying to switch into its stab especially if its specs.

Electivire - the coverage of this mon is also annoying that again, I spam whiscash. Dusknoir could also check it but it would obviously just volt switch out.

Whiscash - I haven’t tried the Dragon Dance set but yeah resttalk set is nice to not only check electivire but also to stop Lanturn from doing too much or else get stuck with a lanturn mirror lol..

Qwilfish - This mon makes teams to have a water absorb/storm drain/dry skin mon or else, good luck trying to survive or revenge a +2 Aqua Jet. I also tried the spikes and defensive set which seems nice since Intimidate alone is such a good ability too and it’s a grounded poison type so it could pick up tspikes.

Dusknoir - Subpunch is really threatening since it could 2hko most stuffs. The defensive set is also good. Will-o-wisp spreading is nice too. I mentioned in my teamdump that it lives Stone Edge from Cradily and Regirock and can Ice Punch/wisp Gligar.

A- tier

Smeargle - Idk where to put this HO lead mon tbh. I should have thought of how to beat this mon the first time I lost to it vs sleid but then I still neglect that and thus lost the succeeding week again which was vs jawa..Aside from trying to tech out of the spore + focus sash set, this mon just emphasized more the need to put grass type in teams since they are immune to spore. Maybe a team with miltank also doesn’t need to tech vs smeargle too but since it’s mostly for HO, miltank still clicking heal bell just gives time for HO to set-up and sweep. Defog Shiftry counters smeargle in a way that smeargle is limited to memento to make progress since shiftry could defog smeargle’s common hazard set and is immune to spore.

Miltank - Thick Fat plus great defense stats makes this mon the best glaceon check in the tier. Can also run heal bell which helps allies that hates status or relies on rest for recovery. Yeah 4MSS is an issue coz it wants rocks, body slam, thunder wave, milk drink, heal bell, and some other dmg moves.

Scyther - I should have used this mon coz despite the likes of Cradily being able to keep rocks up reliably or even if Regirock is around to check it, it’s a fast pivot that could force progress but yeah need a reliable hazard control with it. I think I remember someone used a plus atk nature set in this pl which was punished coz it’s slower than quick feet ursaring..

Mr Mime - Psychic/Fairy is a great offensive typing in this tier. Kinda just hold back coz of stats coz if this has like the stats of kad, it might be in the discussion to ban ig xd. I used Scarf Hwish but maybe I should have tried specs and or np set too.

Toxicroak - Dry skin is nice coz it will serve as qwil check. Np set makes it threatening and like regirock won’t like tanking those focus blasts either. A bit faster than skuntank and also has better sp atk stats.

Leafeon - A grass type with great atk and phy def base stats. Subseed sets are annoying though this grass hates scald coz of burn..Also great speed tier coz jolly nature means it will be faster than quick feet ursaring.

Kangaskhan - Teams that are prepped vs ursaring are already probably prepped vs kangaskhan too. Not that eq would change much anyway since there’s still solrock to consider too which is unlike gligar, resists normal too. Could definitely be still use over ursaring coz fake out and sucker punch.

B+ tier

Drifblim - I lost to this mon in the time I decided to drop Skuntank lmao...Unburden then cm set with strength sap….looks dangerous.

Masquerain - another sticky web user with intimidate ability. Could be dangerous with qd too but I haven’t seen it. Also weak to rocks though

Rhydon - seen several usage this pl too mainly for HO. It’s rock/ground typing is definitely helpful as displayed this pl as ground immunes elec and rock resists normal.

Poliwrath - This mon with subpunch could also be annoying. I also saw jawa used this with stall which is nice since it has at least base 90 on all of its defensive stats. Water absorb serves as the qwil aqua jet stopper.

Weezing - Another poison phy def check but unlike qwil, weez can levitate thus immune to eq and spikes. Kangaskhan would have a harder time breaking this mon since it can’t hit it super effectively while Ursaring needs sd plus status-boosted facade for a chance to ohko a full hp full phy def weez. Could also set annoying tspikes, wisp physical atkers like gligar, can have recovery with lefties and pain split.

Ludicolo - A grass type but aside from being grass, it is also a water type so unlike Leafeon, it doesn’t mind Scald. I haven’t tried Rain Dance but I tried defensive subseed which is nice. Base 80 hp with 70 phy def isn’t enough vs phy atks but 100 spdef is nice versus some spatks combine with good resistances because of its typing.

Kingler - stab and knock off seems lock on its set. Two slots for coverage moves of set-up moves. You have the likes of Hammer Arm, Rock Slide, and X-Scissor then it can either go sd or agility.

Bellossom - Another grass type that I managed to use. Speed tier is kinda bad coz it means it needs a lot of investment to outspeed skuntank even at +1 which also means sac’ing evs for it could have been used for its defensive stats to make its qd set more hard to revenge kill.

Kadabra - psychic is still a good typing in this tier and unlike mr.mime, this mon has ability Magic Guard so hazards wouldn’t weaken it. A slow pivot like Lanturn sending Kadabra in and despite being spec/scarf locked, it could just click dgleam as midground instead of Psychic so that a non-sucker punch Skuntank won’t wall it. Base 120 spatk so its psychic is stronger than mime’s and its base 105 speed ties with scyther.

Sandslash - Also a spinner that I used. Yeah it’s a ground that is still scared of lanturn’s scald but I think this mon could be explored more too xd. It isn’t that bulky but base 75 hp with base 110 phy def seems decent and with rapid spin putting him at +1, this could turn into an offensive mon with base 100 atk that could be boosted with sd.

B tier

Shiftry - Another smeargle answer. A grass with dark typing. Falls to mime’s stab dgleam yeah but that’s nice role compression. Defog + sucker punch for prio + grass + dark + smeargle answer in one slot.

Abomasnow - Ice is a nice offensive typing..but the combination of ice/grass has many weaknesses..which means this mon also struggles in getting into the field without taking significant damage. Seen this in HO.

Gorebyss - I’d seen this in jawa HO so putting this in here even though idk how is it on other comps

Victreebel - This is a grass type that I haven’t tried to use in this pl..It has base 105 atk and 100 spatk so a mixed set could definitely work with leaf storm and physical set. Decent speed too since it is faster than the likes of glaceon and p2.

Hitmonlee - Fighting type is also a nice offensive typing although Gligar is like in 90% of the teams so it’s kinda a deadweight despite also being a rare spinner but it also struggles to find opportunity to spin anyways without taking too much damage..

Grumpig - A psychic thick fat mon so should work. I haven’t tried it but I saw someone used it this pl and in theory it looks fine.

Piloswine - Base 100 atk and ice shard looks not bad. It could also set rocks and base 100 hp and base 80 phydef isnt that bad either.

Solrock - I also used this mon as rocks setter full phydef base 90 hp base 85 phydef. Enough as Kangaskhan check. Could spread burn with wisp and levitate ability makes this immune to ground so its rock typing could really be utilized to counter mons with only normal + eq as coverage moves.

B- tier

Monferno - a fire pivot seems nice

Rotom-Fan - I also managed to use this mon which is nice despite this mon being nullified by Lanturn. Scarf as speed control and it could still Trick Lanturn and an elec mon with levitate means it is not weak to ground but the flying typing opens this up to more trouble. It could twave regirock but it won’t do much. Still base 105 base spatk with base 107 spdef (though just 50 base hp lol).

Sneasel - Ice is a great offensive typing in this tier. Dark means it could get in on psychic but like mime ain’t clicking psychic when they see this mon in preview..Great speed thing which means this could go for adamant nature to boost more its atks. But yeah it’s hard to get this mon into the field coz it has bad defense stats and Ice typing as defensive is uh..let’s just say not as good as it being offensive.

Gabite - Dragon/Ground is a nice offensive typing. Weakness to Ice won’t be that much felt but yeah it means tough versus a team with ice.

Relicanth - can set rocks, base 90 atk, base 130 def with base 100 hp, rock/water typing, seems nice.

Buizel - another offensive water with decent speed for this tier. Aqua jet boosted with band and could even use switcheroo to choice lock a target.

Pinsir - base 125 atk, 100 def in base 65 hp, 85 speed, probably its typing is what holds this back since a typh could revenge kill. Rocks are already a given.

Dugtrio - Another rocks setter plus memento for HO then ig. Base 120 speed, base 100 atk, so ye could work even not under HO too.

C tier

Chimecho - C as in Chimecho. Healing wish is nice. Trick room idk…

Regigigas - I haven’t seen this mon in battle..but I guess I’ll also just put it in here.

Probopass - Regirock that could pivot? Ye maybe this could be niche.

Marowak - Trick room paired with chimecho ig then good luck tanking eq thick club boosted too and can sd too.

Raichu - Oh the electric mon that could use a water move…ye there’s lanturn and Raichu could learn grass knot too. Base 90 spatk, base 110 speed..

Manectric - Double elec lezgo! Base 105 spatk although sad just 75 atk where it has nice atk moves lol. Base 105 speed and ye could switcheroo so maybe band could work then? Idk

Magneton - Another elec, but this time with steel typing too….if only assault vest or something is in here ig….

Huntail - Physical atk version of gorebyss. Sucker punch looks nice.

Rotom-Frost - another mon I saw listed publ. Again ice typing is nice and an elec that is immune to ground. Haven’t tried but also just putting it in here.

Then I won’t list the other mons since uh….there’s no pu zu cutoff in builder. So ye that’s all for now.

 

[LpZ]

This is a long coming rant but i think webs really should be gone here

Fast taunters like Skunk can prevent the setters (Smeargle and Masquerain) temporarily but only something like max speed Taunt Qwil and Monferno can both prevent webs and get their own hazards up to break their sash (Qwil can't really do that vs Masquerain). Defog Shiftry is not a webs counter, Masquerain destroys it completely and Smeargle can Memento to keep the webs up and then something like Typhlosion is going to scare it out and then it will be threatened by everything to the point webs will never be removed. Priority is also not reliable enough into webs teams as common webs abusers have good bulk so you need a lot of chip on them to pick them off with a priority move. Webs also have good variety of mons to be used between Typh, Ursaring, Abomasnow, P2, Qwilfish, Gligar, Glacion, NP Skuntank, Kingler, Gorebyss, and maybe even more.
I don't get keeping an element that promotes such a big constraint on builder, planning for both webs and balance/stall (which are also great) is just way too hard (if possible at all) and imo webs makes some BO teams close to unviable as well as fat teams not being really good into webs because of mons like Guts Ursaring and the infinite amount of pressure its teammates can provide.

Tl:dr please ban webs, either the move or banning all of Smeargle, Masquerain and Shuckle.

 

[Trogba Trogba]

Here is my viability ranking for BDSP as of the end of BDSPPL III.

S-
With the rise of offense in BDSPPL III, Gligar has proven itself as a top threat with the itemless Earthquake+Acrobatics+double dance set. In addition it is still fantastic in its traditional support role; very consistent remover and blanket check to lots of physical mons, amazing pivot, and knock off in a tier where there isn't much knock off.

Balance beware! The best breaker in the tier. Short of Regirock and Dusknoir, very little is eating a hit. The quick feet set is generally the best outside of webs, with it outspeeding all common non-scarfers in the tier, too.


Without Jynx to keep this mon in check, it is an absolute demon on offense. Very easy to get swords dance off with intimidate and very little in the tier can take a hit afterwards.

A+

Expert belt is as good as ever. With the rise of webs it's even harder to revenge
A
The standard focus blast, dark pulse, nasty plot and vacuum wave set has the potential to wipe teams. Unfortunately, the reliance on focus blast keeps this mon out of S tier

One of the few mons that doesn't get ohkod by Ursaring and probably the best rocker in the tier. A balance staple


Very threatening with download if you get the spa boost. Move sets can be fairly flexible as tri attack + ice beam covers virtually all of the tier offensively.


E-belt set is still the best, and really does well into balance with Volt Switch, Ice Punch, Earthquake and Cross Chop/Brick Break being able to super effectively threaten pretty much everything except Whiscash. Probably would rank higher without Typhlosion being faster


One of the few Evire and Typhlosion checks. Scald + Earthquake is also very hard to switch into.
A-
Best Glaceonproofing in the tier with thick fat, good utility in Thunder Wave, Stealth Eock and Heal bell. Very limited in terms of offensive moves though. All its abilities are really good.


One of the best rockers in the tier + decent wall and one of the few scald switchins. Would be a lot better if not for e-belt Electivire and Typhlosion sets.
Suffers a lot from a 4x rocks weakness. Still a nice pivot if you can keep them off and the best revenge killer in the tier - especially vs webs.


Very little in the tier can switch into Ice Beam + Freeze dry with Never Melt Ice. Every balance team is basically required to run Miltank, Probopass or Piloswine as an Suffers into offence due to poor speed stat.


Largely a one trick pony as a lead, but boy it does that well. The most common set is Stealth Rock/Sticky Webs, Spore, Rapid Spin, Memento. Being able to put a mon to bed, get hazards up, deny opposing hazards and deny defog/get a set up mon in safely with memento.
B+
Consistent defog but outclassed by Gligar in that supporting role. Definitely a lot worse with the shift of the meta to offense.

Splashable pivot + blanket special answer. Doesn't love Cradily or the prevalence of e-belt Typhlosion, but still very consistent.

No fairy resists, easy A+ if it had Moonblast. Healing wish is really cool and unique, Trick lets it still contribute despite otherwise thudding into stuff like Lanturn and Cradily. Trick scarf/specs is a lot better than plot.

Abuses a lot of the most common defensive mons, subseed is really tough for some teams to deal with.


The spdf set is one of the few good defensive checks to Typhlosion. Sub, Bulk Up + dual stab has the potential to sweep in the right match up.

SD Woodhammer hits like a truck, but has crap defensive typing

B

Only useful on offense, but is very difficult to deal with after a shell smash.


A decent web setter and is also offensively threatening with Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz and Ice Beam/Hydro Pump. Slightly outclassed by Smeargle in the role.

Nice resistances, sub on Lanturn is cool with subseed. Rain dance is inconsistent but good when it works, can still scald fish and be annoying when rain doesn't 6-0.

Agility + SD is terrifying and would probably be a tier if it didn't flop into Toxicroak and Poliwrath so hard.


Fat and a normal resist but slow and doesn't deal much damage outside of sub focus punch. Necessity on stall for Ursaring.

Sitrus CM is inconsistent but cool when it works. Just not strong enough to be very good.

Has seen a resurgent in BDSPPL III as it is good into offense with fake out. Kinda meh into balance.

B-
Matchup fish, good resistances.

Okay Typhlosion and Glaceon check, does little else.

Rare tspike setter, spreads burns and no physical attackers hit it supereffectively. Also gets abused by anything with substitute and lets in every special threat.

:Victreebell:
Can be threatening with sunny day life orb sets.


Very frail, but great coverage and fast.


C+
Good lead into opposing offense with taunt and stealth rock, deadweight into fat. U-turn bot that doesn't impale itself on rocks like Scyther is nice. Overheat is the best last move because it's so frail that -def doesn't matter anyway and you can knock yourself into blaze with recoil.


Could be decent if it wasn't quad weak to one of the most spammed moves - Scald. Has seen some use with double dance on offense, but it's not fantastic

Consistent rocks lead and memento for HO.

Slow volt switch and resisting ice is cool, but otherwise completely outclassed by Miltank as an ice resist.


Honestly not awful, but kinda forced to run trick + scarf in order to deal with special walls like Lanturn. Would be significantly better without the rocks weakness.


Fast and strong, but frail and desperately wants focus blast.


Honestly had a bit of a breakout this BDSPPL as a rocker and Glaceon check. Great stabs in Earthquake and Icicle Crash, a bit too weak and slow though.


Really fast, great offensive typing, but not strong enough and a glass pea shooter. With Jynx gone, it just isn't good enough.


Decent rocker and can check to Typhlosion/Evire, does little else. Wisp is okay.

Too frail to be good imo, decent into balance.


Rocks weak and lack of power means it's just not strong enough

C
Funny into fat teams.


Same as Solrock, but without will-o-wisp


Funny rocks shell smash lead, but pretty bad.

Trick room + healing wish is a niche

SD is surprisingly threatening into fatter teams and it might be underexplored, but it's hard to support.

It's ass but there are no dragon resists so it's decent.

Passive and not that bulky with no recovery, but very good role compression.

Cool offensive rocker and CB is fun, hard to build with though.

good into offense, useless into fat beyond switcherooing something.

Raichu but slower, worse coverage, and switcheroo.

Trick room lad, subsd edgequake is hard to switch into.

C-
Really hates the ubiquity of Lanturn. Analytic is cool into no-Lanturn matchups but you could just use P2.
Gorebyss but worse

 

[Trogba Trogba]

New Sample Teams


2x Normal Hyper Offense by Trogba Trogba

https://pokepast.es/ad1f0e0019bfa9fd

Webs Offense by jawabarat - No longer legal

https://pokepast.es/26b58d48340de49d


Sub Bulk Poli Balance by Trogba Trogba

https://pokepast.es/96eaf6cc05dc6426

Stall by Trogba Trogba

https://pokepast.es/b75fe309a2653647

Double Eeveelution BO by igiveuponaname

https://pokepast.es/9d6a4e52ef915fae

 

[igiveuponaname]

After some discussion the BDSP NU council has decided to move forward with a vote on Sticky Webs in the tier. Initially considered a fringe strategy, Sticky Web hyper offense teams saw a surge in usage during BDSPPL III having been brought to seven games and winning all but one of them. Their ability to limit offensive counter play against the many powerful threats these teams can run due to the speed drop and difficulty in removing them from the field have drawn the ire of many players who have expressed interest in seeing them gone.

Though Smeargle is the main webs setter thanks to its access to Spore and Memento setting the pace for the rest of its team with much consistency, Masquerain has also shown itself to be a solid webs setter thanks to its offensive capabilities against the common hazard removal options in the tier, meanwhile Shuckle, though much less common, shows more resilience into certain anti-lead tactics such as Taunt and Fake Out Kangaskhan, making counter play dependent on which webs setter the team is using.

There was some deliberation as to whether or not Smeargle should have been held to a vote rather than Sticky Web as a whole seeing as it is the most common and effective webs setter; but after a while it became clear that webs were the greater issue seeing as their impact once laid down was far too great regardless of the setter.

The voter pool will consist of the council, the finalists of the most recent BDSP NU Open, and players who started in at least 3 and won at least 1 game in BDSPPL III. A supermajority vote of 60% or higher will be required for a ban.

Voter pool

igiveuponaname (council)
sleid (council, BDSPPL)
Trogba Trogba (council, NU Open)
jawabarat (council, NU Open, BDSPPL)
Baddy (NU Open)
BloodAce (BDSPPL)
LpZ (BDSPPL)
DiannieRatson (BDSPPL)

Results will be announced on Monday.

 

[igiveuponaname]

Results will be announced on Monday.

Okay I know I said the results of the vote would be announced Monday and we still have one user who hasn't voted yet but like

it wasn't even close lol. So with that being said Sticky Web is now banned from BDSP NU.