Bulky Support

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Introduction crap
This is a team that I came up with while mowing lawns. Yeah, really. Surprisingly when i began to test it I found that it performed fairly well, easily shutting down most offensive teams while also faring well against balance teams.

I had been having a good time with this team when suddenly random gimmicks came along and said 'u jelly? From that point on i wanted to write an rmt to make my team more waterproof. Or at least Tentaproof. (Courtesy of Woodchuck)

Joking aside the team stalls somewhat against strong defensive cores and espescially against full stall teams that can cover both of my offensive threats easily. That said its a very fun team to use and has been doing decently on the ladder despite the lack of serious laddering time.

TEAM AT A GLANCE

TEAM

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Wish
Comments: Wish+Calm Mind Jirachi starts off the team as one of the two set up sweepers, and finds oppurtunities to sweep against most teams lacking heatran. Jirachi is checked pretty hard by ground type Pokemon, however, Jirachi has a couple ways around this. If Jirachi can pull in 2 Calm minds before Gliscor gets in it can defeat it one on one with a pair of Flash Cannons, Wish healing it up. Alternatively, Ground-types provide ideal switch ins for Gyarados and Salamence which can then threaten them with boosted Waterfalls and team healing respectively. Defensively, Jirachi works in tandem with Ferrothorn to sponge the Dragon and Psychic attacks that can threaten this team. Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon are chosen for the greater neutral coverage and ability to beat bulky waters more easily.

Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Gyarados shows up as the sceond set up sweeper on the team and integral part of my defensive core. Intimidate is crucial to check physical opponents such as conkeldurr while also being a hardcore check to prominent threats in the metagame and to this team such as Scizor. The RestTalk variant is essential to maintain Gyarados's survivability and to prevent it from being crippled by status. It has strong synergy with Jirachi and Ferrothorn being able to take the Ground-, Fighting, and Fire-type attacks that treaten them and being able to threaten them back with Waterfall. 248 HP hits a Lefties number.

Salamence (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Dragon Tail
- Flamethrower
FatAss WishMence was the first member chosen after having it used against me with great success, it provides a second check to physical attackers, provides me with my only phazer and constitutes the second part of my dual-Wish core that keeps the team healthy. Flamethrower allows Salamence an easy way to threaten Pokemon like Forretress and Ferrothorn that may think Mence set up fodder after I've revealed Wish.

Salamence hasn't really performed as well as i thought it could and i've considered replacing it with Dragonite, which would either run Sub/Thunder Wave/Roost/Dragon Claw or Dragon Claw/DD/Roost/Heal bell.

Hitmontop (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
Hitmontop joins the team as a crucial Rapid Spinner, removing the Spikes and Stealth Rock that cripple my defensive pivots. Fake Out and Mach Punch provide a necessary priority option, allowing Hitmontop to revenge weakened Thunderus and Excadrill, particularly important as it is my only direct way of stopping Excadrill (the other way is a convoluted method that involves a lot of switching making Rapid Spin even more necessary). Life Orb is allowed as the item due to the Dual Wish core, otherwise i would utilise Leftovers for the survivability. Close Combat is rarely used but is Hitmontop's most effective STAB option.

Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Thunder Wave
- Power Whip
Ferrothorn joined the team when i decided that Jirachi couldn't handle the special attacking weight on its own, thus a Sassy nature and the EV's allow it to take strong special attacks, espescially Rain boosted attacsk more easily. Leech Seed and Spikes are the preferred combination for the additional team healing and the fact that Spikes assist the other team members to a great extent. Thunder Wave is particularly nice here as it reduces the threat of being swept by opposing pokemon such as Dragonite while also making Gyarados's and particularly Salamence's job easier.

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Quick Attack
The final member of the team is my gut check failsafe against most threats. With a Choice Scarf equipped Terakion becomes able to revenge opposing threats that have set up, notably Volcarona, Thunderus and Dragonite before they are able to destroy my team. The moves are standard, Quick Attack was a meh choice.


That summarizes this team, it doesn't have any particular Pokemon oriented threats i've encountered, its more of a team style issue. The main concerns I have right now is the lack of a Stealth Rocker, the lack of an effecient way to deal with Rotom-W and Forretress and Salamence's poor performance.

So, please rate away, I look forward to improving my team.


(Ed. Some of the comments may appear sparse, they are simply concise, i am rarely a pontificator)

 

[Woodchuck]

You are amazingly weak to SD tenta.
Okay, now for the real rate.
You have issues with Sun teams. Victreebel, in particular, picks apart your team with Solar Beam / Giga Drain, Weather Ball, and HP Ice. Because of this, I suggest you forego Close Combat on Hitmontop and run Sucker Punch to allow you to more effectively revenge Victreebel.
Salamence is also meh so I agree with SubPara Shuffling Dnite.

Finally, Quick Attack on a scarf Terrakion sucks. Run Earthquake, it lets you revenge Toxicroak which sets up on Gyarados and wrecks the rest of your team provided Jirachi is weakened enough.

Also SubCM Latias sets up on Ferrothorn, so normally I'd recommend Gyro Ball, but if you run Sucker Punch on Hitmontop you should be able to use it to break the sub and then finish Latias off with X-Scissor.

Also hitting a lefties number with Gyarados isn't great because it also means you take more damage from Stealth Rock, but that's your prerogative.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Yeah, Earthquake has been about to get put on for a few days after a paralyzed (9.9) Toxicroak gave me trouble. I see your point about Sucker Punch, it seems to provide a good priority combo with Mach punch resists, I'll try it out.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I would recommend using Dragon Tail or Roar (probably Roar to get rid of all those Substitute users like Gengar who give you trouble) over Dragon Dance on Gyarados, as Gyara can't really sweep and stall at the same time. I would then change FatMence to a Chansey in order to maintain that Physical Defense while boasting massive Special Defense. The standard Chansey set would work well, with Softboiled over Protect for instant recovery. This will also let Gyarados (and his nice SDef) be your CM Reuniclus check instead of the frailer FatMence. This gives you much more bulk in your Wishes, too.

Using Roar on Gyarados also gives you ways around SubCM Latias, who can give you trouble. Also I think maybe you should run 4 more Speed EVs on Rachi to Speed creep Standard 'Scor.

 

[Woodchuck]

I still maintain that ParaShuffler Dnite should be run over Salamence, as it would also help deal with Sun. As for Gyarados, I've never run Resttalk DD so I can't really say anything about its effectiveness...

In a lot of the teams I run I often find that there's a distinct pokemon that never seems to pull its weight, and I always find that pokemon to be ineffective. Even if you can't quite place a reason for it, do any pokemon feel that way to you? Are there any pokemon in particular you want to replace?

I do agree that one of your two SR weaks should be changed to a non-SR weak poke as your Hitmontop isn't very bulky and probably will go down early in the match, so it's not up to the task of spinning again and again.

Another thought: replace Gyarados with a Slowbro, it counters Excadrill better, spreads Paralysis, and kills Ferro and other stuff with Flamethrower (I never really got why Slowbro gets Flamethrower, but eh). Unfortunately, doing that would leave you with a bit of a Scizor weakness :/ It also has Slack Off which is >>> Rest and also has Regenerator. You can even run CM if you want a bulky setup sweeper.

Finally: SubCM Jirachi, especially the rain variant, rips your team to shreds. It sets up on Ferrothorn, Stone-edge locked Terrakion, Salamence, Gyarados, and will beat your own Jirachi one-on-one through Confuse/Parahax. (Yeah, battling you was very illuminating 9.9) Earthquake will mitigate this somewhat but it'll have a Sub up...

Because of this, run Gastrodon to shore up your team against rain teams (it's immune to both of rain jirachi's attacks 9.9), and then run Dragonite over Salamence to provide more physical AND special bulk in addition to spreading paralysis.

I'll probably try out a version of your team like Jirachi / Gastrodon / Ferrothorn / Dnite / Hitmontop / Terrakion. (Thinking about it a little more, Scarf Terrakion + Hitmontop seems redundant... Banded Terra breaks walls better? I always just dump my thoughts out in RMT posts like these but I hope it was coherent enough for you to read 9.9)

 

[Jaetheho]

i would DEFINITELY SUGGEST parashuffler dragonite with

sub/dragontail/thunderwave/roost
over your salamence

with a 252 hp 252 special defense 4 speed careful spread

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

After talking over irc i am currently testing a variant with Intimidate, Fake Out/Rapid Spin/Suckerpun or mach Punch/Rest Hitmontop, Roar over Sleep Talk on Gyarados and a Dragon Dance/Dragon Claw/Roost/Heal bell Dragonite which seems to work reasonably well so far.

As Woodchuck said the Pokemon that seemed to be pulling its weight the least was Salamence which prompted this particular test. Moving further the pokemon that next seems to pull its weight the least is Jirachi, the only time I ever find myself using it to sweep was against teams with Jellicent or Vaporeon, usually it was Gyarados who would sweep.

I'm wondering if there is a pokemon who can fill Jirachi's place and be able to either sweep more consistently, add to the bulk of the team while threatening stall teams or being a wallbreaker.

Ironic that the two pokemon not pulling their weight was the wish core XD
Also, bluemon, I havent tried that set yet but it has been discussed and will be tested at some point.

Finally, Lolcat, I had similar suggestions on #ratemyteam about changing pokemon to more defensive ones but i vetoed that for two reasons, 1, this isnt really a full stall team, 2, i really suck at full stall. So while the Chansey suggestion is appreciated it doesn't really work here. I am testing Roar>Sleep Talk however.

 

[Woodchuck]

Okay, I'm back with more suggestions:
You want a replacement to Jirachi, and originally I was going to suggest SubCM Latias. But then I realized Skarmory would wall your whole team. So that's not a good idea.
Therefore, my suggestion is a CM Raikou.

name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fighting
move 4: Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Raikou is a solid switch into Rotom-W, only bothered by a Hydro Pump in the rain. Raikou can actually set up on Thundurus with a Calm Mind and then OHKO it with Thunderbolt (you outspeed and easily survive a Focus Blast after you've CM'd once), so that gives you another check (You also can just OHKO it after a little residual damage if you're too weakened to set up). It also is a nightmare for rain teams to handle, especially if you opt for Hidden Power Fighting to hit Ferrothorn. (Which I do recommend as you can hit the latis with Shadow Ball and the only things you really miss out on are hitting Salamence and Dnite -- Gliscor doesn't like taking boosted Shadow Balls)

If you don't like that, another suggestion of mine would be CM Virizion as that also provides special bulk and a useful set of resistances. However, Raikou is probably the better option as apart from Jirachi you didn't have any solid switchins to Tornadus; Raikou will handle it easily.

 

[Tomahawk]

You have no reliable way of beating Reuniclus. It can an opportunity to set up against Terrakion, Hitmontop or Ferrothorn, and after a Calm Mind, nothign can do significant damage to it, while they're KOed back. Jirachi will have a hard time outstalling it, when it doesn't have good special bulk.
Gengar might be a little troublesome, as not much can take its Shadow Balls and Focus Blasts, and it can set up a Substitute against Terrakion, Hitmontop or Ferrothorn. Not much can take two of his attacks.

I suggest using a bulky Swords Dance Scizor over Jirachi. You still have a reliable Dragon and Psychic-type resist, but it also helps deal with most special threats nicely, since your team seems to be very physically bulky while special threats have an easier time sweeping (Heatran and Infernape are handled by Gyarados and Salamence, so don't worry about them). Scizor is still a good sweeper, and can also check Reuniclus and Gengar because they can't do much to Scizor with Focus Blast when he's using a bulky spread, and he can just set up a Swords Dance and proceed to sweep. The exact set is:

Hide

Scizor @ Leftovers | Technician
Adamant | 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SpD
Swords Dance / Bullet Punch / Bug Bite / Roost

Good luck!

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'lm liking both suggestions although the Scizor leaves me even more Skarmory weak. Raikou definately sounds promising.
I've been musing and I'm wondering if I replace jirachi with a Scarf pokemon that can handle Dragonite and some other pokemon that Terakion would cover while switching Terakion to the Double Dance sweeper, which gives me both a fast option and a way to break through stall teams.

Some team changes are being tested, will update the op on Tuesday when i have time.

 

[Woodchuck]

log of the discussion on irc

*** Cloverleaf [Mibbit@synIRC-CC16B287.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ratemyteam
<Cloverleaf> no delibird? XD
<cco> !probability that Delibird was removed
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<Cloverleaf> 100%
<cco> heh
<Cloverleaf> what can revenge Dragonite and also handle Reuniclus?
<Cloverleaf> hmm, maybe ScarfRachi
<cco> is this +1 Dragonite?
<Cloverleaf> yeah
<cco> Scarf Hydregion?
<cco> in case you wanted to try something different
<cco> also trick hipice scarf gar
<Cloverleaf> I considered that
<cco> actually Jirachi would do that better.
<Cloverleaf> yeah, trick scarf rachi
<Cloverleaf> with iron head flinching
<Cloverleaf> hmm, wonder what to put in the last move
<Cloverleaf> Iron Head, Trick, Stealth Rock blah
<cco> what else is your team troubled by?
<Cloverleaf> probably easier just to c/p the link to my rmt :P
<Cloverleaf> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454312
<cco> that's a very INTIMIDATING core
<Cloverleaf> :D
<cco> I might say Ice Punch on scarfrachi...
<Cloverleaf> that was the first thought
<cco> sorry, sorta new to rating
<EspyOwner> use Fire Punch.
<EspyOwner> It's generally better on Jirachi
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<Cloverleaf> true
<Cloverleaf> I can probably rely on flinching for drag
<EspyOwner> you can rely on flinch for a lot of things.
<EspyOwner> Latios, Drag, etc.
<Woodchuck> okay i'll just continue the discussion in here
<Cloverleaf> Fire punch definately helps my team with Skarm too
<Woodchuck> if you ran gastrodon over gyarados
<Woodchuck> you wouldn't be so weak to rain and cm rachi
<Woodchuck> and then you could forego hitmontop
<Limitless> i don't really like your core
<Woodchuck> because dragonite is okay with rocks
<Cloverleaf> I like gastro, I just dont think it fits here
<Woodchuck> (assuming you get rid of sala)
<Limitless> and since you have 4 core members
<Limitless> you really don't need a scarf user
<Limitless> if you need a scarf user
<Limitless> then you need to change your core
<Woodchuck> go with double dancer hitmontop but make rachi a raikou
<Woodchuck> imo
<joshe> .
<Woodchuck> *double dancer terrakion
<Limitless> cause you should be able to handle the majority of the metagame with a 3 member core
<Woodchuck> god i'm failing
<EspyOwner> no Woodchuck you're right
<EspyOwner> Terrakion = Hitmontop
<Woodchuck> i was thinking about hitmontop while typing about terrakion
<Woodchuck> <.>
<EspyOwner> ∞_∞
<joshe> ∞
<joshe> ∞.∞
<EspyOwner> when did you get here?
<Cloverleaf> I'm just thinking i need the Scarfer to handle speed boosting offensive threats, else i'd run Scizor as a Reu counter
<joshe> decided to do homework instead of eat
<joshe> because tbh
<Woodchuck> cloverleaf
<joshe> i'd just puke it up again
<Woodchuck> run scizor over hitmontop
<joshe> goddamn
<Woodchuck> because hitmontop sucks
<Woodchuck> and then run raikou over jirachi
<Limitless> you don't need scarf
<Woodchuck> you're slightly exca weak then but it can't set up on anything you have
<Limitless> when you have a 4 man core
<Woodchuck> so it shouldn't be an issue
<cco> specially with all the Intimidates you can throw around
<EspyOwner> I'm going to go, bbl.
<Cloverleaf> problem is if I drop top I'm very hazard weak
<joshe> what's the team
<Woodchuck> this is why i said to get rid of gyara for gastro
<Woodchuck> -_____-
<Woodchuck> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3773983#post3773983
<cco> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454312
<Woodchuck> is the team
<joshe> oh that one
<Cloverleaf> o.O thats convenient
<joshe> add tangrowth
<joshe> !!!!!!
<joshe> fUK ALL ADD TANGROWTH
<Woodchuck> joshe 9.9
<joshe> also lol
<joshe> i honestly don't see how mence DOESN'T deal with sun
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<Woodchuck> !probability tangrowth is good
<joshe> just set up sr
<calcbot> 0%
<joshe> and dtail away
<joshe> woodchuck get your alt out of here
<joshe> tangrowth is be_ast
<joshe> and where the hell did raikou come from
<joshe> wtf
<cco> new DW challenge should be topping the ladder with either a raikou or tangrowth team
<Woodchuck> he's really weak to rain, joshe
<Woodchuck> 9.9
<joshe> as i mentioned last night
<joshe> mence and gyara
<joshe> do exactly the same thing
<Woodchuck> he has exactly 0 specs tornadus switchins
<joshe> gyara just deals with gliscor
<joshe> yes
<Cloverleaf> I dropeed mence for Sala
<Cloverleaf> *drag
<joshe> they do the same thing r.r
<Cloverleaf> drag has the higher sp def
<Woodchuck> the only advantage
<Woodchuck> is intimidating shit
<joshe> lol wow
<Woodchuck> that's about it
<joshe> you're hopeless
<joshe> dragonite is the same as salamence
<cco> hm
<joshe> it just twaves
<joshe> that's it
<Cloverleaf> takes hurricanes better
<joshe> how the hell is that gonna help you against every other team
<Woodchuck> texas, gyarados doesn't fit
<joshe> no it doesn't
<Cloverleaf> mence wasnt pullin its weight
<Woodchuck> run gastro
<Woodchuck> 9.9
<joshe> it still gets fucked up the ass
<cco> I'm thinking about this, do ya'll remember the gyara set that Ironbulltet used in Fable
<joshe> what the fuck
<joshe> i keep telling you
<Woodchuck> joshe you are too emotional of a team rater
<joshe> fucking run jellicent over gyarados
<joshe> i told him this last night woodchuck
<Woodchuck> oh
<Woodchuck> wasn't there
<joshe> i have a right to be pissed off
<Woodchuck> 9.9
<joshe> tbh
<Cloverleaf> I haven't tested it yet 9.9
<Woodchuck> run gastrodon
<joshe> run jelli over gyara
<Woodchuck> over gyara
<joshe> get rid of top
<joshe> for something else
<joshe> and run sr
<Woodchuck> scizor
<joshe> anywhere
<Woodchuck> and then run sr on jirachi
<joshe> no not scizor are you fucking crazy
<Woodchuck> wait no scizor + ferro is bad
<Woodchuck> -______-
<joshe> you get raped up the ass by heatran then
<Cloverleaf> esp with rachi
<joshe> jesus fuck
<Woodchuck> fuck ferro run celebi
<joshe> woochuck shut the fuck up
<joshe> please
<Woodchuck> 9.9
<joshe> this is for your own good
<cco> that takes away the focus of the team
<joshe> no it doesn't
<joshe> not at all
<Woodchuck> joshe
<joshe> unless he wants a completely shitty team
<Woodchuck> he's still weak as fuck to subcm jirachi
<Woodchuck> with jellicent
<joshe> terrakion + double wish is the core
<joshe> did i even mention how i'm going to fix it yet woodchuck
<joshe> ??????
<Woodchuck> no
<joshe> then
<joshe> shut
<Woodchuck> i assumed you hadn't taken it into account
<joshe> up
<Woodchuck> since you hadn't said anything
<Woodchuck> about it
<Cloverleaf> anyway
<joshe> cloverleaf
<joshe> jellicent over gyarados
<joshe> keep mence
<joshe> get rid of top for heatran
<joshe> with sr
<joshe> balloon tran
<joshe> and get rid of quick attack on terrakion
<joshe> for like earthquake or some shit
<Woodchuck> that also checks dnite
<Woodchuck> yeah
<Cloverleaf> oh yeah, already threw EQ on
<joshe> k
<joshe> that should help you immensely with everything
<Woodchuck> texas the reason why wish + cm rachi isn't pulling its weight
<Woodchuck> is that wish + cm rachi isn't good
<joshe> rachi / jelli / mence / heatran / ferrot / terrakion
<joshe> i can make a rate later if you want
<Woodchuck> >.>
<joshe> on the forums
<joshe> but try that team clover
<Woodchuck> joshe he still loses to rain subcm rachi
<Woodchuck> even with heatran
<joshe> lol wat
<Cloverleaf> alright, what ev's were you thinking of on tran?
<joshe> he has mence
<joshe> dtail it out
<Woodchuck> thunder
<Woodchuck> it has a sub joshe
<joshe> so
<Woodchuck> mence does not do anything to subcm rachi
<joshe> calm mind thunder water pulse sub
<Woodchuck> yes
<joshe> gl
<Woodchuck> he's weak as hell to that
<Cloverleaf> f i switch flamethrowew for eq
<joshe> that would work
<Woodchuck> but then
<Woodchuck> nvm
<joshe> you have tran for ferrot i gues
<joshe> s
<Woodchuck> yeah
<joshe> i remember running wish / roar / dclaw / eq mence back in dp
<joshe> boss as fuck
<Woodchuck> roar is better than dtail is a lot of scenarios tbh
<Cloverleaf> I agree
<joshe> run whatever but try the mons first
<Cloverleaf> hold on, am i keeping scarf terra or going to double dance?
<Woodchuck> yeah
<joshe> if you're weak to stall and shit
<Woodchuck> you shouldn't need a scarfer
<joshe> no
<joshe> scarf terrakion
<Woodchuck> with that many defensive pivots
<joshe> is boss
<Woodchuck> well mence can probably switch into +1 reuniclus
<Woodchuck> and dtail
<Woodchuck> so that would be okay
<joshe> what
<joshe> he has rachi
<joshe> ???????
<Woodchuck> cm rachi doesn't beat cm reuniclus
<Woodchuck> one on one
<Woodchuck> >.>
<joshe> lol and how does cm reun beat cm rachi
<joshe> with focus blast???
<joshe> GL
<Woodchuck> meh
<Woodchuck> i don't like using special rachi to counter cm reuniclus
<Cloverleaf> am I running Taunt on Jelly?
<Woodchuck> yes
<Woodchuck> always run taunt on jelli
<Woodchuck> helps break stall
<joshe> the only problem he'll have with stall
<joshe> is that he can't spin hazards
<joshe> away
<Woodchuck> his only SR weak mon is salamence
<Woodchuck> but i'm willing to bet
<Woodchuck> that team is extremely switch-heavy
<joshe> if that becomes a problem
<Cloverleaf> 4-5 spikes weak though
<joshe> i'd switch up terrakion for a spinner
<joshe> balloon tran cloverleaf
<joshe> btw
<Cloverleaf> hence the 4-5
<joshe> helps check excadrill
<joshe> test the team out first
<joshe> before changing anything else
<Cloverleaf> I'm wondering If I go Excadrill as the spinner which also takes sand teams on
<joshe> you'll need sand
<joshe> then
<Cloverleaf> not against stall, outspeeds stuff anyway
<joshe> what the fuck
<joshe> if you run excadrill
<joshe> you run tar
<joshe> if you don't why the fuck are you using excadrill
<Woodchuck> joshe
<Woodchuck> you underestimate
<joshe> r..r
<Woodchuck> bulldoze exca
<Cloverleaf> to spin, duh
<Woodchuck> B)
<cco> joshe-see ubers
<joshe> lol ubers
<joshe> that's because sun is actually usable in ubers cco
<joshe> and everything and their mother rapes tar
<joshe> r.r
<joshe> in ubers
<cco> still, Exca has a niche not reliant on sand
<cco> and why couldn't that be applied to OU?
<Woodchuck> you could always run trickscarf starmie over rachi or something
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<Woodchuck> it spins, checks reuniclus, checks dnite
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<cco> and a backup check to Double Genie
<Woodchuck> cloverleaf
<Woodchuck> thoughts?
<Cloverleaf> hmm
<Cloverleaf> If i do that I can run double dance rakion too
<Woodchuck> nvm finish your battle first 9.9
<Woodchuck> like trick / hydro pump / ice beam / spin
<Woodchuck> checks stuff and can hit decently hard
<Woodchuck> trick cripples ran
<Woodchuck> *rank
<Cloverleaf> makes sense
<Cloverleaf> although what happens vs rain?
<Woodchuck> you trick off your scarf on ferro or something
<Woodchuck> then go to town with hydro pump

i might clean it up eventually but... it's all there so meh