Resource BW Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread

Not a question abt Gen 5, more a question abt these noble forums. I seen a page one time about gimmick sets in gen 5. I opened it in a tab and thought I still had it, but I recently cleared my tabs and can’t find thes tab on the phone nor the post on the forums. I’m not an experienced forum warrior, and I don’t feel like sifting through pages on here. Anyone got the link?
 

Finchinator

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What are the best ways to be safe against cloyster (besides never giving it a setup opportunity)?
Things like bulky Jirachi, Lefties Keldeo, and Magnezone tend to wall and defeat it even after a Shell Smash and a little chip, which is more room than most other things get against it. The main way of beating Cloyster is just pressure and keeping things healthy though. Also, priority like Scizor BP or DNite Espeed can take it out after a good chunk prior. Stealth Rock also helps a ton.
 
What sort of roles do Terrakion and Gyarados still have in the metagame? Their analyses are listed as outdated for their strategies, and I don't see them listed in most sample teams. (still new to BW). Are they outclassed by Breloom and Salamence as SD & Moxie users? I see Mence is ranked lower than Gyarados, is that just because gyara is better on rain and mence only has DragMag?
 

Finchinator

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What sort of roles do Terrakion and Gyarados still have in the metagame?
Terrak can run Sash SR as a lead or can opt to run Choice Band. Previously SD Rock Gem was good, too, but now this set is a bit less common -- still ok with Sub SD or SD Quick Attack and Air Balloon, Life Orb, or a resist berry.

Gyarados is a Rain sweeper with Dragon Dance, usually pairing it with Substitute, Waterfall, and Bounce or Earthquake.
Are they outclassed by Breloom and Salamence as SD & Moxie users?
I do not think either is entirely outclassed and Terrakion is quite good, but Gyarados has seen better days and those two are strong alternatives.
I see Mence is ranked lower than Gyarados, is that just because gyara is better on rain and mence only has DragMag?
I think right now...Salamence is a bit better, maybe like B+. Gyarados is not in a good spot currently, so probably more like B/B-.
 
Which Pokemon outclasses Victini in OU and Ubers?

For OU, I'm thinking Ulgamoth and Heatran.

For Ubers, Reshiram and Ho-oh in which they surpass both Victini and Ulgamoth.

It would help if anyone could add to this, thanks.
 
Which Pokemon outclasses Victini in OU and Ubers?
Victini isn't outclassed by anything, however its role is largely redundant in the BW metagame.

Fire types like Victini and Darmanitan are incredibly hard to switch in with rocks up, and even then fail to make an impact. Slower Rain and Sand teams generally are able to pivot in a faster pokemon and at worst trade one for an easy revenge. Offensive teams in general play much faster with aggressive hazard stacking and faster threats which are unfazed by strong fire type attackers.

Volcarona is different as it is able to boost its speed making it harder to revenge kill and sometimes winning games if the opponent doesn't have sufficient counterplay. Heatran is not rocks weak and provides a support role that is not like other fire types.

While Victini can be used on Sun with options like Xatu, sun as a playstyle itself is less consistent and more of a matchup fisher.

In the Ubers tier, fire types face similar problems and in playstyles like Magic Sun, Victini is purely outclassed by Ho-oh. Reshiram itself is not much of threat in ubers as it is similar to Victini in the OU tier.
 
Victini isn't outclassed by anything, however its role is largely redundant in the BW metagame.

Fire types like Victini and Darmanitan are incredibly hard to switch in with rocks up, and even then fail to make an impact. Slower Rain and Sand teams generally are able to pivot in a faster pokemon and at worst trade one for an easy revenge. Offensive teams in general play much faster with aggressive hazard stacking and faster threats which are unfazed by strong fire type attackers.

Volcarona is different as it is able to boost its speed making it harder to revenge kill and sometimes winning games if the opponent doesn't have sufficient counterplay. Heatran is not rocks weak and provides a support role that is not like other fire types.

While Victini can be used on Sun with options like Xatu, sun as a playstyle itself is less consistent and more of a matchup fisher.

In the Ubers tier, fire types face similar problems and in playstyles like Magic Sun, Victini is purely outclassed by Ho-oh. Reshiram itself is not much of threat in ubers as it is similar to Victini in the OU tier.
You gave a very different answer to what I expected based off of what I read from the strategydex, can I say that that's outdated?

I now have more questions, what's Magic Sun? And how is Reshiram redundant in Uber?
 
I now have more questions, what's Magic Sun? And how is Reshiram redundant in Uber?
While I am not a gen 5 ubers player, I have played and seen enough games to understand the tier.
Magic Sun is an offensive playstyle that uses Magic Bounce Espeon/Xatu to prevent hazards allowing Ho-oh or Reshiram/Kyurem White to unleash massive damage in the sun. Here is a MagicSun team from BKC's video on BW Ubers. (credit goes to him and Hack)

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Dark Void
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 240 HP / 224 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Thunder Wave

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 72 Atk / 144 Def / 252 SpA / 40 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Sneak
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Tail

Espeon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Grass Knot

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Earthquake


As to why Reshiram is bad in gen 5, I think FalseSwipeGaming's video on Reshiram and the strategy dex are pretty good answers. In essence it is a stealth rock weak wallbreaker that offers no defensive utility and is easily revenge killed, unlike Ho-oh. It is also generally outclassed by Kyurem-White which while suffering similarly, is stronger and faster and doesn't rely on weather support as much.
 

Monai

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While I am not a gen 5 ubers player, I have played and seen enough games to understand the tier.
Magic Sun is an offensive playstyle that uses Magic Bounce Espeon/Xatu to prevent hazards allowing Ho-oh or Reshiram/Kyurem White to unleash massive damage in the sun. Here is a MagicSun team from BKC's video on BW Ubers. (credit goes to him and Hack)

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Dark Void
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 240 HP / 224 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Thunder Wave

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 72 Atk / 144 Def / 252 SpA / 40 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Sneak
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Tail

Espeon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Grass Knot

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Earthquake


As to why Reshiram is bad in gen 5, I think FalseSwipeGaming's video on Reshiram and the strategy dex are pretty good answers. In essence it is a stealth rock weak wallbreaker that offers no defensive utility and is easily revenge killed, unlike Ho-oh. It is also generally outclassed by Kyurem-White which while suffering similarly, is stronger and faster and doesn't rely on weather support as much.
You are almost entirely correct, but I would like to add that Kyu-W is quite niche even on magic sun, so Reshiram is borderline useless in BW Ubers. Facilitating Ho-oh is almost the entire point of Magic Sun, so if you wanted to use KyuW, you would find a place in addition to Ho-oh, rather than in place of it. The vast majority of Kyu-W in recent times I remember seeing were on cheesy SmashPass teams, but there might be some usage that I'm forgetting.
 
Does anyone know how showdown handled poison touch at BW launch? Japanese versions of the game had a 20% poison chance compared to everyone else having a 30% chance. In link battles the poison % would follow the cart of the poison touch user, meaning the same ability could work differently in the same battle based on the cart of the user. Thanks!
 

peng

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I've seen that Hail was used a bit, what is it for? Is it just to cut opposing weathers or is there more to that?
its niche is being strong as an individual pokemon into rain (on offense its job is p much that) but the chip damage is also really big with certain partners.

we've seen a lot of it paired with reuniclus or cloyster, which really enjoy the steels having their survivability cut down (heatran, scizor, jirachi, excadrill and so on) which support from Tyranitar can't do
 
I remember hearing that playing gen 5 OU is similar to rock paper scissors in the way that weatherless, sand, and rain fare against each other from one of BKC's videos. Anyone know of any posts elaborating this further? Not sure how to specifically look for it, but I'm interested in reading more.
 

peng

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I remember hearing that playing gen 5 OU is similar to rock paper scissors in the way that weatherless, sand, and rain fare against each other from one of BKC's videos. Anyone know of any posts elaborating this further? Not sure how to specifically look for it, but I'm interested in reading more.
Would be surprised if there were any posts on this, but I can summarise below. Note this is very very broadly speaking and there are many exceptions

-----
Rain vs Sand

The very simple answer is that Rain teams suffer more playing under Sand than vice-versa.

Rain teams tend to be built around defensive cores of Politoed/Ferrothorn/Tentacruel which utilise residual damage of Scald, Tox, hazards to support offensive mons. These mons tend to be quite reliant on Rain being up to do their job well, including:
  • Keldeo (wants Rain for power + survivability of especially Sub sets)
  • Thundurus-T (wants Rain for Thunder accuracy + survivability of especially Sub sets)
  • Tornadus (wants Rain for Hurricane accuracy)
  • Tentacruel needs Rain for Rain dish, again especially Sub sets
  • Ferrothorn needs Rain to check mons with Fire coverage e.g. Latios, Dragonite
  • and so on
Sand teams, on the other hand, are already loading up on Sand immunes so have that natural survivability advantage. However, outside nerfed Fire coverage, facing an increased power of water-type moves (which you are already prepared to face anyway when preparing for Scald) generally, there is otherwise no real disadvantage for Sand mons playing under Rain - some, such as Latios, Celebi, Rotom-W and their own Keldeo, actively enjoy playing under Rain so the opponent can be punished for actually having their preferential weather up. The closest a Sand Pokemon gets to being "nerfed" under Rain is SF Excadrill but this is not close to the nerf that Keldeo, Thundurus, Tornadus, Tentacruel face.

It goes a bit further than this - most Rains won't be able to fit Pursuit on and so they defensively struggle against Latios with hazards up. Teams that have Spike + Latios + a Magic Guard Psychic, which also overlaps as Scald/Keldeo prep, tend to be incredibly strong into Rain. The idea that Sand >>>> Rain comes from a time where Spikes + Latios/Reuniclus/Alakazam teams were the predominant Sand, and when Keldeo/Thundurus/Latios Rains were the most predominant Rain, and thats a MU in particular that can feel close to unwinnable for the Rain player.

major exceptions:
Rain abusers that happily play under Sand e.g. Mamoswine, Sub Jirachi, Garchomp can really punish Sand teams
Some Scizor Rains can be good into some Latios Sands due to pursuit
Sand teams that don't prepare well for Rain in an attempt to be better vs HO (Heatran + Scarf Latios stuff for example can be very frail into Keldeo)

---------
HO vs Sand

Hyper offense is really strong into Sand for a few reasons. The main upside of Sandstorm itself is in drawn out games with a residual damage focus, as there aren't really many proper offensive Sand abusers. HO aims to finish games in 20 turns or less which means there isn't much upside to having uncontested Sand - the upside of Sand is when the opponent brings another weather, not when the opponent brings weatherless offense.

More specifically, HOs capitalise on the defensive typings that most Sand teams stack in order to, well, be good vs Rain to begin with. The pool of glue mons that sand uses is mostly limited to:
  • Sand immunes - Ttar (obv), Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, Excadrill, Gastrodon, Reuniclus, Clefable, Alakazam
  • Scald immunes (some of which are needed for rain keldeo also) - Jellicent, Gastrodon, Clefable, Reuniclus, Breloom, Jellicent
  • Spike immunes (if the sand doesn't have Excadrill it probably needs to minimise its hazard weaknesses): Gliscor, Landorus-T, Latios, Rotom-W
Find me reliable Quiver Dance Volcarona and Shell Smash Cloyster counterplay in that list. This is the unfortunate reality of building sand - a lot of the "safe" picks you want for residual damage immunity are set-up fodder for Cloyster and Volc and the remainder of your team can often fall to their power + coverage.

Another layer of complexity is that Sand teams have very few good Choice Scarf options, which means that revenge killing the likes of Volcarona or Dragonite can be tough. The Scarf options for Sand that are faster than Volcarona are like... Latios (Pursuitable and only good alongside another Tyranitar lure, so only works on a subset of sands), and Garchomp (grounded, spike susceptible, completely shut down by Skarmory). Other Scarfers like Excadrill, Landorus-T etc are good into Dragonite but they are also those Pokemon's worst sets. Tyranitar is a great Scarfer but revenge kills nothing boosted. The result is that, for a long time, a lot of sand teams were "cheating" speed control by using only Focus Sash Alakazam as a catch-all, 1-time revenge killer, therefore letting them avoid using a bad choice scarfer - however HO easily bypasses Alakazam by stacking multiple Pokemon that you'd rely on Alakazam to beat e.g. Volcarona, Dragonite, along with priority users Breloom, Cloyster, Scizor to easily overload the 1 time Sash use.

major exceptions:
Sand teams with Heatran or Keldeo (esp with ice coverage) tend to do well vs HO
Sand teams with Landorus-T can smartly use Intimidate to beat Dragonite / Cloyster / Breloom / Scizor
Sand teams with Jellicent can help keep up SR to limit Volcarona and Dragonite

-----------
HO vs Rain

Rain is generally strong into hyper offense as uncontested Rain makes the abusers very difficult to handle, in contrast to Sand which finds it hard to leverage its uncontested weather in short games. Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Tornadus, Gyarados etc under rain are all HO killers, almost regardless of set, as the frail offensive Rain Pokemon often can't find set-up chances in front of Rain boosted Hydro, 100% accurate Thunder, 100% accurate Hurricane.

The defensive core under Rain also tackles the HO pokemon well. Defensive Politoed is strong into Cloyster and disrupts other set-up with Encore. Gyro Ball Ferrothorn is strong into Dragonite, which also gets its Fire Punch nerfed. Toxic Tentacruel tends to be good into Volcarona and Scizor.

Rain also has better access to choice Scarfers than Sand. Scarf Latios is more splashable on Rain and its faster than Volcarona + boosted Surf power. Scarf Keldeo is also a great option.

Major exceptions:
Without Gyro Ferrothorn or Ice Beam Politoed, Rain teams can actually be very bad vs Dragonite
Without Keldeo, Rains are at risk of losing to well-played Cloyster
Passho Volcarona
Sunny Day Magnezone
Some HOs run Abomasnow over a sweeper (normally dropping where Breloom would fit) which flips the Rain MU on its head


-------

Very very very general - the tier is not completely a rocks-paper-scissors of team selection but there are trends which lead to archetypes tending to be strong into others. There are loads of exceptions and the metagame changes a lot every year, some of the stuff above is already a bit outdated information
 
Last edited:

Gamer1234556

"Because... Scald is a shit Ferro answer!!!"
Haven't been on top of the metagame for about a year, so I would like to ask an honest question.

Has Cloyster really suffered all that much from the Gem ban? Since Cloyster was arguably one of the biggest reasons to warrant that happening, it would obviously have had a knock on its viability.
 

Finchinator

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Haven't been on top of the metagame for about a year, so I would like to ask an honest question.

Has Cloyster really suffered all that much from the Gem ban? Since Cloyster was arguably one of the biggest reasons to warrant that happening, it would obviously have had a knock on its viability.
It’s still very viable and threatening, but it has gotten worse. Still see it on HO often enough.
 
Does Baton Pass maintain the effects of Whirlpool (ex, turn 1 Whirlpool, turn 2 Baton Pass)? If so, then this could be a way of Trap-Passing if you choose to use Vaporeon.
 

Gamer1234556

"Because... Scald is a shit Ferro answer!!!"
How competitively viable is DragMag currently, and should I focus on entry hazards or hyper offense?
DragMag is pretty solid overall. The general idea of it is Hyperoffense with Dragons. You don't really need an awful lot of entry hazards aside from Stealth Rock unless you want to get a little weird and use something like Custap Berry Skarm or Forretress.
 

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