CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5d - Secondary Ability Poll 2

[beej]

Magic Guard - This Pokemon is immune to secondary damage (Leech Seed, Poisoning, entry hazards, etc.)

Poison Heal - This Pokemon heals 12.5% every turn when Poisoned.

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Primary Ability: Trace

• Put some substance in your posts. No "I voted for x" posts.

 

[Raikaria]

First, couldn't resist.

Well, I'm voting Magic Guard. Breloom's frail as anything, and Poision Heal makes it a nightmare to kill, albeit, with Spore. Giving Poision Heal to something with VASTLY superior HP and defensive stats is stupid, especially as Switch in = +12.5%, turn while your target switchs out = +12.5%. That's over 100HP.

Magic Guard helps to counter status users, will not make CAP10 'Starmie from hell' with it's slower speed, lower offensive stats, and [probable] lack of Reliable Recovery. It also prevents passive damage, rather than healing it, and then some.

One thing I'd like to note now, with either ability, Reliable Reovery, or even Wish/Protect, will be BROKEN with CAP10.

No poll?

 

[Matthew]

I voted for Poison Heal for several reasons, the largest of them being immunity to other status while poisoned with no negative side effects. Sure we can get 18% healing a turn, however we have to first make sure we're not losing the battle we're switching into anyway, and we also have to make sure Toxic Orb activates. Magic Guard is also a rather silly ability to have for this CAP. It allows for free switches into status, entry hazards, and it doesn't care about weather, lest we all not forget about the biggest threat of Magic Guard -- this pokemon will now not suffer from Life Orb recoil damage or damage from regular recoil damage.

EDIT: DO NOT say that something will be broken simply off of Theorymon. We have no idea how this pokemon will be as a wish passer (though it will most likely be good). As is we throw the term 'broken' around too loosely.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

I voted for Poison Heal for several reasons, the largest of them being immunity to other status while poisoned with no negative side effects. Sure we can get 18% healing a turn, however we have to first make sure we're not losing the battle we're switching into anyway, and we also have to make sure Toxic Orb activates. Magic Guard is also a rather silly ability to have for this CAP. It allows for free switches into status, entry hazards, and it doesn't care about weather, lest we all not forget about the biggest threat of Magic Guard -- this pokemon will now not suffer from Life Orb recoil damage or damage from regular recoil damage.

Magic Guard may prevent damage from status, but at least CAP10 can still be crippled by them. Burn still halves attack, paralyze still lowers speed, etc. If CAP10 gets Poison Heal, it will live long after it has killed the pokemon it is supposed to, and hell, blissey (and rotom to an extent) would just not be able to touch it. Meaning CAP10 has countered them. Which is not supposed to happen. And besides, people are not going to just slap a life orb on CAP10 and sweep, because of its relatively low base attacking stats. Most OU attacking pokes have 100+ in the chosen attacking stat, unless they have something else going for them (e.g. Gliscor, who is very close to 100 anyway, 95 base attack).

 

[Yehom]

I voted Posion Heal. I want to see how broken a Pokemon can be if it has a Base HP Stat of 150+, gets 12.5% of it's health back per turn and is therefore immune to other Status Conditions.

 

[scampy]

I guess it makes sense to first consider the advantages of each ability.

Poison Heal

- With Toxic Orb, guaranteed 12.5% HP recovery per turn
- Once activated, immune to Burn, Sleep, Freeze, and Paralysis
- Can backfire Trick users (unless Steel/Poison typed)

Magic Guard

- Immune to Sandstorm and Hail damage
- Immune to entry hazard damage
- Does not take damage from status, however other effects still hurt (e.g. Para speed drop)
- Does not take recoil damage

OK, think I got them all. A lot of people seem overly intimidated with Poison Heal's large HP recovery rate, but allow me to demonstrate why Magic Guard is either equally effective or even better from a defensive standpoint.

1) In Sandstorm/Hail conditions, a Leftovers Magic Guard heals exactly the same amount of HP that Poison Heal does. According to the standard ladder details, your opponent will use these weather conditions about 29% of the time. If you yourself are using a TTar/Hippo/Aboma, the two abilities will recover the same amount most of the time.

2) Upon switching into Stealth Rock, it takes Poison Heal 2 turns to achieve a net HP recovery of +12.5%, equal to that of Magic Guard Leftovers over the same timeframe. If Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes is up, it takes Poison Heal 4 turns to catch up to Magic Guard's healing total.

Note: If Sandstorm/Hail is present, as well as an entry hazard, Poison Heal will never recover as much as Magic Guard.

3) Magic Guard can run Life Orb without fearing recoil. This allows CAP10 to invest more EVs into defenses, as it does not require as much in offenses to net certain OHKOs or THKOs.

 

[Seizen]

Poison Heal.

The simple reasoning being that both affect the primary use of status, one just makes status less appealing to use while the other stops all but three status from affecting it once it's item works. Namely, Curse, Attract and Confusion.

Magic Guard can allow us to go no-downside Life Orb, but an Expert Belt used correctly will do more damage. It's more the fact that between healing damage and taking no damage from entry hazards etc., I'd prefer that extra chance of taking damage to happen. If you're outlasting every opponent due to not taking weather damage or entry hazard damage, even when Earthquake hits hard, then we are doing too well in avoiding damage.

 

[black_cotton]

i' ve seen a lot of theory of how CAP10 would be overpowered with magic guard + life orb, for you guys let me point out
a. First of all i would like you guys to put your attentions into another poke, that i will compare to put my argument out, it is FROSLASS.
I know that at the first sight this look dumb, cause both apparently have not in common.

But looking at their stats: froslass 70 hp/80 at/70def/80s.at/70s.def/110 speed and CAP10 150 hp/84 at/73 def/83 s.at/74s. def/105 speed.
With that in mind we can say that both have almost the same stats(let alone the gargantuan HP of CAP).
Also both have a great dual offensive stab typing.

Okay, now how many of you have put a froslass sweep?...(i had but with a hail team and with snow cloak, but whatever)
yep, froslass is not even considering sweeping as main options in it's page and the idea is seen only in at "other options " sections even so it says clearly that attached a Life Orb or even with a choice item it doesn't pack enough power.

this is what is saying:
"Froslass can be an effective sweeper because of its unique STABs, great movepool, and 350 Speed. With Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, and Trick, Froslass can deal some major damage to the opposing team, especially since it won't be expected. A Life Orb could be used as well, but with Hidden Power Fire on the last slot instead of Trick. However, Froslass simply does not do enough damage to 1-2HKO most Pokemon because of its mediocre Special Attack stat."

With that in mind and seeing the calculations with magic guard in other pools i still do not seen the reason that MAGIC GUARD+ Life Orb would been broken, of course no recoil is awesome but lets see CLEFABLE example with 70 ata/85s. at and the same ability ,it only troubles the U.U. and clefable also has reliable recovery for god sakes.

My real concern lies into the general bulk and recovery provides by POISON HEAL that CAP may get; i'm afraid it turns out into a general wall ,like a inferior <coof> Blissey. i do not want to hear quotes like : "oh no it CAP 10, that thing takes forever to die".
Going in a completely different way of the Utility Counter(witch it was taylored to kill 1 thing per match or at least poke that are similar like defensive gliscor and Skarmory and then sitting peacefully the rest of the match) but not killing things that are completely differents and doesn't even fainting.

ThatS why i will support, again, MAGIC GUARD.
Also sorry for the gigantic post xp.
Thats my opinion.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

Rather than trying to decide which ability I feel is the least overpowered, I simply decided not to vote.

I still feel that both of these abilities are too attractive and too all encompassing. Neither one particularly encourages the "Precision Laser" concept that the I understood the CAP is supposed to be. Rather than allowing the versatility to be a Physical Wall or a Special Wall, the regenerative properties of both abilities seem to allow it to perform both at the same time.

And oddly, everyone expects CAP10 to have a wide and varied movepool, and so many seem to think that will somehow specialize and limit it.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

And oddly, everyone expects CAP10 to have a wide and varied movepool, and so many seem to think that will somehow specialize and limit it.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Egg. Moves. CAP10 will most probably have a very varied movepool, but if it goes to plan, many of them will NOT be able to be put on the same set.

 

[TRX]

Okay, I can now finally voice my opinions (damn my slowness to respond)! I voted for Poison Heal because I think Magic Guard is simply too good. Status immunity is one thing, but sandstorm/hail and recoil immunity seems over the top considering the prevalence of weather in OU.
Also, I have noticed a lack of reference to the concept of CAP 10 that was found in the other 2 polls, so I will take it upon myself to reemphasize it; CAP 10 is supposed to counter some threats not all. While neither of these abilities fits the bill very well in my opinion (I know I'm gonna get some angry responses to that), giving it Magic Guard will increase CAP 10's walling capabilities greatly. So greatly that it becomes a pain to kill and people start to think "Why the hell did we ever come up with that thing?" Maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but lets leave the godliness known as Magic Guard to Clefable.

 

[Dogfish44]

Okay, I can now finally voice my opinions (damn my slowness to respond)! I voted for Poison Heal because I think Magic Guard is simply too good. Status immunity is one thing, but sandstorm/hail and recoil immunity seems over the top considering the prevalence of weather in OU.

I'm just posting to point out the irony in this statement.
Which is better: +6.25 % from lefties but nothing from weather.
OR: +12.5 % from Poison Heal, then -6.25 % from Weather.

Both are ironically enough identical, but there isn't ALWAYS weather.
Also, I personally hope that all moves are low power/support, so that it can use hidden power to target certain things, for instance.
Voted Magic Guard, Poison heal gives too much.

 

[ferron]

voted poison heal. while both abilities give a psuedo-immunity to statuses, the fact that one gives a more or less required item is a limiting factor that i approve of.

I voted Posion Heal. I want to see how broken a Pokemon can be if it has a Base HP Stat of 150+, gets 12.5% of it's health back per turn and is therefore immune to other Status Conditions.

wanting to make something broken is not a legitimate reason, as that goes against the idea of CaP itself.

 

[TRX]

Sure, there isn't always weather, but how often are there at least some form of entry hazard? I don't know the statistics, but I would venture to guess more often than not, just from personal preference/experience. I mean, CAP 10 with Magic Guard would make stall teams completely unusable by taking away their 3 best forms of passive damage; entry hazards, toxic, and sandstorm (or, to a lesser extent, hail). Sure, Clefable has the potential to do the same with magic guard except that CAP 10 has vastly superior stats and STAB moves, not to mention being able to hit other pokemon with sandstorm immunity super-effectively. So yeah, I think giving CAP 10 Magic Guard would just make it too bulky. Not invincible, but a serious pain in the ass nonetheless.

 

[Xiom]

Magic Guard increase it's walling capabilities while Poison Heal Doesn't?

Poison heal will allways heal more then Magic Guard is preventing unless enemies have both SR and Spikes or A weather effect plus SR. So unless you are facing weather or Spikes Poison Heal heals more damage. Only exeption is against SR and you double switch.

And why the hate on Hazard Imunity? This Cap will obviously force switches, since its not suposed to counter many things at once its forced out. Then when it tries to counter the same threat again its health would be alot lower making it unable to counter it. With Magic Guard i strongly suport giving it no recovery besides Rest maby.

 

[Objection]

Why Objection objects to Magic Guard:

Magic Guard = no Life Orb damage.
No Life Orb damage = free boost to attack and special attack.
Free boost to attack and special attack = CAP10 becomes sweeper.
We specified that CAP10 was supposed to be defensive, not offensive.
Therefore, sweeper =/= concept that we agreed on.
Not concept that we agreed on = bad.

Therefore, Magic Guard = bad.

Why Objection objects to Poison Heal:

Poison Heal + Toxic Orb = double Leftovers recovery.
Now, remind me how this helps CAP10 fulfil its concept, because it's not obvious.
Not concept = bad.
Therefore, if there is no connection between Poison Heal and the concept, then Poison Heal = bad.

The only reason I went for Poison Heal is because there is a chance that Poison Heal isn't as bad a choice as I have deduced, but this relies entirely on someone answering the following question: How does Poison Heal fit the concept?

 

[TRX]

Magic Guard increase it's walling capabilities while Poison Heal Doesn't?

I never said Poison Heal doesn't increase walling capabilities, I was just outlining my reasons why Magic Guard increases its walling capabilities too much.

 

[black_cotton]

Why Objection objects to Magic Guard:

Magic Guard = no Life Orb damage.
No Life Orb damage = free boost to attack and special attack.
Free boost to attack and special attack = CAP10 becomes sweeper.
We specified that CAP10 was supposed to be defensive, not offensive.
Therefore, sweeper =/= concept that we agreed on.
Not concept that we agreed on = bad.

Therefore, Magic Guard = bad.

Why Objection objects to Poison Heal:

Poison Heal + Toxic Orb = double Leftovers recovery.
Now, remind me how this helps CAP10 fulfil its concept, because it's not obvious.
Not concept = bad.
Therefore, if there is no connection between Poison Heal and the concept, then Poison Heal = bad.

The only reason I went for Poison Heal is because there is a chance that Poison Heal isn't as bad a choice as I have deduced, but this relies entirely on someone answering the following question: How does Poison Heal fit the concept?

I think you are overeacting and focusing in only 1 point of what MAGIC GUARD brings to the table, even though that may be a valid option in the future ,we should not forget the other good points that the ability would brings (immunity to weather and hazards) with this it would make what it was designed for come against a threat ,force it out and come back as many times as needed, and magic guard achive that. For those concerned about Life Orb variants just compare: do you see more offensive or defensive clefable? hum...

On the other hand i totally agree with the poison heal part.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Egg. Moves. CAP10 will most probably have a very varied movepool, but if it goes to plan, many of them will NOT be able to be put on the same set.

That does sound like a great plan. Hopefully that will help or be enough rein CAPX in.

However, looking at the reasons for voting, I still don't see much argument for how a particular ability fits the concept. I do see argument for how a particular ability is less outside-the-concept than the other choice.

 

[Naxte]

Why Objection objects to Magic Guard:

Magic Guard = no Life Orb damage.
No Life Orb damage = free boost to attack and special attack.
Free boost to attack and special attack = CAP10 becomes sweeper.
We specified that CAP10 was supposed to be defensive, not offensive.
Therefore, sweeper =/= concept that we agreed on.
Not concept that we agreed on = bad.

Therefore, Magic Guard = bad.

Why Objection objects to Poison Heal:

Poison Heal + Toxic Orb = double Leftovers recovery.
Now, remind me how this helps CAP10 fulfil its concept, because it's not obvious.
Not concept = bad.
Therefore, if there is no connection between Poison Heal and the concept, then Poison Heal = bad.

The only reason I went for Poison Heal is because there is a chance that Poison Heal isn't as bad a choice as I have deduced, but this relies entirely on someone answering the following question: How does Poison Heal fit the concept?

On Magic Guard, if this thing really was going to become a sweeper at this point, it would anyway. Why? It can still use Life Orb either way. Magic Guard isn't increasing it's offensive abilities in any way--it's stats are still capped at the same numbers. Yes, Life Orb has recoil normally, which Magic Guard cancels out. However, that's only 10% per offensive move used. What this means is that even without Magic Guard, assuming SR damage, CAP10 would still be able to attack up to 9 times before the recoil kills it. Now, I don't know about you, but to me that seems like more than enough time to do a (non-game breaking, normal) sweep, if you ask me. Plus, that's not even factoring in how, if someone really wanted to, even if CAP10 doesn't get reliable recovery itself beyond RestTalk (which it could use to the same effect), you could do stuff like Wish Pass to it to extend its durability.

But back to the point, CAP10 has 9 turns to mess around with regardless if it comes in clean, which, at least most of the time, is more than enough time for a sweeper to do its job. Thus, if CAP10's going to be a sweeper, it's going to wind-up that way, Magic Guard or not.

Magic Guard may make it a bit better at it, due to not having to worry about SR/Life Orb recoil, but it would still be one either way in the case. Plus, remember, Magic Guard isn't changing this thing's Base Stats. It's offensive stats are in the 80's. That's respectable, but it needs heavy investment to hurt numerous things. I don't have time to calc it myself, but I remember someone having posted a calc for Volt Tackle against Blissey basically proving that point, as it wasn't a guaranteed 2HKO without investment, while holding Life Orb. And considering we don't even have to give it Volt Tackle, we can pretty much eliminate that possibility by making it have to stick with Waterfall or something as its strongest physical STAB move.

But in any case, back to the point, if CAP10 was going to become a Life Orb sweeper with it's stats, it would have become one anyway, Magic Guard or no. Magic Guard may make it "better" at being one, but that's only if it can stick around longer than 9 turns, which I'm not quite so sure it will always be able to reliably do, especially if we don't give it reliable recovery (and if it doesn't get Magic Guard, but does get recovery, then the same basic thing can happen). Plus, with CAP10's offensive stats, I'm not overly worried about it's sweeping potential, assuming we deny it some of the stuff that makes Clefable deadly in the lower tiers (namely, in this case, stat boosting movs like Belly Drum).

Beyond that, the only real worry I can see about this is CAP10 won't have all that Life Orb recoil on it when you switch in your counter. However, considering that you feel that it CAP10 shouldn't be a Life Orb Sweeper at all, it doesn't seem that you are really that worried about needing residual damage on CAP10 like Life Orb recoil to bring it down regardless. And that's pretty true: a good EQ (and potentially stuff like Grass Knot, depending on its weight) will do CAP10 in regardless, so residual damage isn't too much of a worry (and that's good... if it's something that really was needed to take CAP10 down to that extent, then, well, that fact would have eventually been discovered either way, leading it to becoming a Life Orb sweeper all the same). Plus, since the alternative ability is Poison Heal, something that has the effect of increased recovery compared to Leftovers, this doesn't appear to be the highest of our worries regardless.

Putting all this together, I'm just not all that worried about Magic Guard making CAP10 really that much more of a deadly Life Orb sweeper than it already could be.

As for the people wondering about its Defensive abilities... That last bit about recoil is pretty applicable here, especially since you're expecting CAP10 to run Leftovers in this case instead of Life Orb. That's trading off some of its offensive ability, which it's not the greatest in already. If you're going to use a bulky spread, I'm not exactly sure how much damage CAP10 will be doing to its foes in that case (I don't have time to calc it or go back to see if this was covered in DK's calcs right now), but, assuming no reliable recovery move, I'm not all that worried about it looking at its stats briefly. However, like I said, I don't have time to do calcs or anything right now, so I could be wrong, and in that case, please correct me.

 

[Objection]

I think you are overeacting and focusing in only 1 point of what MAGIC GUARD brings to the table, even though that may be a valid option in the future ,we should not forget the other good points that the ability would brings (immunity to weather and hazards) with this it would make what it was designed for come against a threat ,force it out and come back as many times as needed, and magic guard achive that. For those concerned about Life Orb variants just compare: do you see more offensive or defensive clefable? hum...

The problem is, for an ability to be the right one for CAP10, there have to be no logical objections to it.

EDIT: Here's the criteria I suggested in the discussion thread:

• Only covers pokemon that Trace doesn't cover (I did not say covers ALL pokemon that Trace doesn't cover - that would be impossible)
• Doesn't give a free boost to either attacking stat
• Fits the concept of being able to counter loads but only a few mons at once
• Doesn't make CAP10 broken

Magic Guard doesn't fit point 2, and arguably neither ability fits point 3.

Congratulations! We have now gone against the concept!

Using examples is a bad idea because even with Magic Guard, CAP10 is too different to liken to Clefable. In fact, using examples is bad because CAP10 is already not like any other pokemon at all. It has Water/Electric typing, so that rules out every pokemon other than Chinchou and Lanturn. CAP10's stats are distinctly different to Chinchou's and Lanturn's, so CAP10 is not like them either.

EDIT: Naxte, you are assuming that CAP10 takes absolutely no damage from attacks whatsoever. When does any pokemon ever stay in for 9 or 10 turns without being attacked by the opponent (unless we're talking something like Rotom-H vs a last poke CB Scizor stuck on Superpower)? The 10% that is lost from Life Orb can make the difference between life and death for CAP10 in far fewer turns than 9 or 10. My issue with Magic Guard is that it allows for a free boost to attack and special attack, since Life Orb's boost only has the price of 10% of CAP10's health.

 

[TRX]

I think you are overeacting and focusing in only 1 point of what MAGIC GUARD brings to the table, even though that may be a valid option in the future ,we should not forget the other good points that the ability would brings (immunity to weather and hazards) with this it would make what it was designed for come against a threat ,force it out and come back as many times as needed, and magic guard achive that. For those concerned about Life Orb variants just compare: do you see more offensive or defensive clefable? hum...

On the other hand i totally agree with the poison heal part.

At what point does all that immunity cross over from usefulness to brokenness? Should a utility counter be an unbreakable wall that just won't die (cough Blissey cough)? No, it should only be able to counter one or two Pokemon with a given moveset and EV spread and be unable to wall others, and giving it Magic Guard will prevent that from being the case.

 

[black_cotton]

to objection: "The idea that we had the option to conjure up a duo of existing abilities that individually cover every threat together isn't right' (i even think that a duo of this abilities in the same pokemon would be the more breakgaming ever).

"Even if Magic guard don't *perfectly* cover Trace, they each provide a way to cover an additional bunch of scenarios when used in tandem with a customized stat spread." This is what we are aiming for right? (but i regonize that the example i bring was not quite pertinent)

to trx: in my post i told about immunity to weather and hazards, but looking to the other option; if we stay one turn we got double leftovers recovery equivalent, and immunity to other stats, meanig that with no spikes and using protect for example, we would negate stealth rock in the same way.

On the other hand with Magic Guard we do not get DAMAGE BUT THE SECONDARY EFFECTS (like the atack drop from burn)still occur, now i ask you how that(poison heal) would not pass to the line of brokeness by other ways.

Edit: the "" are beej arguments that a took from other poll.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I voted Magic Guard mostly because I wanted to be the demon's advocate this time around. I got a question to ask about the concept or any concept for that material, just how closely do we have to stick to the concept? Are we given any leeway when it comes to complete the project at hand?

 

[Scoopapa]

People voting for either choice are citing the brokenness of the other option as their reason... I can see this ending well...