CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[HeaLnDeaL]

In this thread we will discuss the typing for CAP21. Our section leader and trusted guide on this journey is Imanalt, so when he christens this thread with an opening post, discussion may begin. Be sure to pay attention to what he says because he is responsible for directing the discussion and will decide the slate of typing options to be voted on at the culmination of this discussion. Our Topic Leader, jasnumbers, will also be around to keep everyone focused on the concept at hand.

Kids, please listen to imanalt and jasnumbers. K?

And hullo, I'm HeaLnDeaL, and I'm shamelessly copy/pasting most of this from Korski's CAP20 typing post with an updated concept, etc, for CAP21.
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CAP21 so far:

Leadership Team:

jas61292 - Topic Leader
imanalt - Typing Leader
DetroitLolcat - Abilities Leader
sparktrain (aka nerd)- Stats Leader
HeaLnDeaL- Movepool Leader

Concept:

Name: Typing Underdog

General Description: A Pokémon which utilizes an undervalued typing to its full potential, by playing towards both its strengths and weaknesses.

Justification: Each typing possesses a unique set of characteristics, causing all of them to perform very differently in various aspects of battle. However, not every typing has been granted the opportunity to display this potential, being forced into suboptimal roles by virtue of stats, ability and movepool, and therefore often being labelled as “bad”.
This concept aims to do a detailed analysis on the primary function of such a typing along with its potentially unexplored capabilities, by creating a Pokémon that that emphasizes the typing’s most prominent traits and utilizes them effectively.
This approach will not only allow us to widen our understanding on the unique niche and preferred playstyle of the typing, but will also give us additional insight on the mechanics that lead to success and failure of the typing when comparing CAP to the wielders in the lower tiers.

Questions to be answered:

• What are the most important traits the Pokémon gains from the chosen typing, both positive and negative?
• Is quality or quantity of weaknesses/resistances/immunities more relevant to the chosen typing? What does this mean for the way it is played?
• How significant is the niche provided by the typing in OU? Are there any striking flaws in the typing that can’t be played around and prevent the Pokémon from performing reliably?
• How reliant is the typing on stats, ability and movepool in order to succeed in OU?
• Are the unique characteristics granted by the typing enough to set the Pokemon apart, or does it face strong competition for its role from Pokémon of other types?
• Is there any distinct playstyle that suits the chosen typing the best? Or can the same typing be utilized in an entirely different approach to similar success?
• How important is a type’s versatility for its overall success?
• Is a single Pokémon capable of portraying most relevant aspects of the entire type?

 

[Imanalt]

So let’s start off by reviewing what jas said to close up the concept assessment and see where we should go from there:

With this said, I would agree with what DLC said in his last paragraph: "Revenge killer is the easier role to fill, but if the goal is to play more towards the strengths and weaknesses of the typing then it makes sense to create a tank that can use its movepool to deal with its typing's shortcomings." Creating a revenge killer would be a fairly simple way to make a Pokemon with an undervalued typing be useful. However, I believe that with this concept, where the goal is more to play with, not around, the strengths and weaknesses of the typing, the utility counter route would be the best path for us to take.

So, moving forward, we should aim to work towards the goal of making some sort of utility counter. We won't be able to say exactly which Pokemon we are going to try and take on until we choose a typing, but we will need to focus on the ability to deal with a number of threats, despite being weak to a large number of others. Our aim should be to handle a specific set of Pokemon, and simply having enough tools to not be dead weight when not in a good matchup. We don't need to, and should not be aiming to negate the downsides of our type, but rather, we need to simply have ways to stay out of situations where those downsides can really cost the Pokemon.

This tells us a lot about our direction, and its going to shape our search for a typing a lot. That said, there is one thing it doesn’t address, and that thing is something we should probably figure out first. We are making a megacap. With this, we have the potential to have a type change that can happen mid battle. Is this a mechanic that is worth exploring? It certainly offers some interesting options, and I would like to see it discussed, but we have to be careful with our discussion here. Basically, I want to see just discussion of this question first off:
Does a change in typing upon Mega evolution allow us to do a better job using poor typing to be a utility check? Or would we rather have the same typing before and after Mega evolution, allowing us to make our ability to check certain Pokemon not conditional on whether or not we’ve Mega evolved?


This question is where I’d like to see the conversation start off, rather than just throwing potential typings out. It doesn’t do us much good to be discussing a type when we don’t even know if it would be the only type!

So let’s talk about that for now and then once i feel something approaching a consensus has been reached I’ll post some more questions about specifically what types we should be going with.

 

[GiantWhirlpool]

well with the option to change typing with upon mega evolving it adds more mind games to it and can let you do some things for free you wouldn't otherwise be able to do, like with mega alt, is he gonna mega and not be weak to stone edge, or stay and avoid an eq. I like this as an option and it makes things more interesting and i would like to see it happen personally. Plus it lets us get the most out of our poor typing options, allowing for even more bad typings to be used...so thats my answer, yes, let it change typing upon mega, dont judge, idk if i have a brain. (joke from the room, dont ask if you dont know, its easier that way)

 

[HD]

Inside jokes aside, I strongly disagree with having the type change upon mega evolution. In my opinion, venusaur and slowbro are ideal representatives of the archetype we're going for, even though slowbro's typing is better than what we are aiming for. They rely on the strengths of their typing - resistances to significant portions of the metagame (water, fighting, fire, etc) to switch in and gain control of the game. However, their typings both come with a myriad of weaknesses, venusaur's especially: fire/flying/ice are all very common attacking types, while slowbro sports a significant weakness to dark. Venusaur's mega beats some of its weaknesses through stats and weaknesses; upon mega evolution, it goes from 80/83/100 to 80/123/120 defenses and reduces its weakness to fire and ice (read: fairly fucking significant). Slowbro similarly improves; its defense increases to 180 and it gains shell armor, which, in conjunction with its movepool (iron defense and slack off), makes it effective at facetanking even dark stab attacks.

For lack of a better word, having the typing change upon mega-evolution is cheap. The goal of the cap isn't to make as many shitty typings/typing combinations work as possible, it's to pick an underrepresented/undervalued/whatever buzz word you'd like typing and make it as effective as possible in situations that favor that typing while mitigating its weaknesses so they are not crippling: Venusaur is exceptional at tanking fighting types, but it's mega-evolution only slight lessens its weaknesses to other common attacking types.

Additionally, keeping the typing static allows for consistency re: the rest of the cap. Different typings have different strengths and weaknesses and therefore a different niche, so keeping the same typing before and after mega-evolution allows us to explore that niche in depth and places more of an emphasis on the other pillars of pokemon (movepool, stats, and ability), allowing us to hit more of those key questions to be answered and, in the spirit of cap, learn more about the metagame - to what extent can ability, movepool, and stats overcome weaker typing?

 

[Billy the Uncle]

I too am not a fan of changing type upon Mega-evolving. While it sounds interesting for adding more variance to CAP21, as well as more mind games, I believe it goes against the concept of using the typing's specific strengths to check whatever we need to check. It would be way too easy to "compensate" for the weaknesses of one typing with another, however bad we make it.

I think it's worth noting that having two different type combinations does not allow CAP21 to check everything its base form checks AND everything its Mega form checks. It's either one or another. Take Gyarados: switching one in a choice-locked Earthquake or in a predicted Bug attack is easy peasy. But once you Mega'd (and lost Intimidate), it's not not so easy anymore. Also Mega Evolution is not a reversible process so once you've gone Mega you can't get back to checking whatever base form CAP21 checks. You can check different things in different forms, sure, but not at the same time and only in a specific order.

There are two more things we should keep in mind. One is that you can't Mega-evolve on the switch, so you can't get to check what Mega CAP21 checks right off the bat: you need to Mega-evolve safely first. Ask non-Mega Altaria to take a Dragon attack... The other is that Mega CAP21 will most probably have a different ability than base form and this too influences what it can check, but that's the topic for another thread.

 

[Cretacerus]

Since utility counters and revenge killers rely a lot on switches, having different typings for both base form and Mega would be one way to control hazard damage early game especially if we aim for a SR weak typing. An example of this would be Mega Pinsir, who makes great use of its Flying STAB while at the same time avoiding the loss of half its health upon switching in, allowing it to fulfill its role on the team more reliably.

Another issue utility counters commonly encounter is their vulnerability to coverage moves, which can be easily utilized in the playtest to prevent CAP from doing its role. A Mega could utilize the natural defensive synergy of the chosen typing with another typing to cover most of these weaknesses, as can be seen to an extent with Mega Gyarados. Many of the undervalued typings such as Grass/Bug and Rock/Water actually have strong and unique resistances which are unfortunately overshadowed by their exploitable weaknesses. A Mega could take advantage of both those sets of resistances before Mega Evolving, preventing the opponent from easily exploiting any of the 4x weaknesses. Of course this route would work best for set-up sweepers who make the most out of potential free turns, but utility counters could definitely benefit from those as well.

 

[Yiam]

I think that changing the typing with Mega Evolution would be against the whole idea of a typing underdog, unless you make it so that the typing changes but stays a poor typing, like a grass/flying pokemon would mega evolve and become a grass/dragon, retaining its 4x weakness to Ice, but giving it more options and powerful STABs like Outrage.

Personally I think you shouldn't change the typing. It would be more interesting to give it an interesting mega ability and change stats around upon mega-evolving, maybe from high speed to high defense or something. You might as well combine that with a changed typing, but it would take away from the idea of typing underdog.

 

[Alfalfa]

If the CAP is going to feature a Mega Evolution, and we are pursuing the concept of a utility counter, we may want the Mega forme to have a typing different to that of the base form. We can give the two formes differences that enable them to successfully oppose different forms of utility.

Mod Edit: Removed stuff that doesn't relate to the question at hand

 

[Minnakht]

I'm also in favor of changing the typing upon Mega Evolution. Going, say, from Bug to Rock swaps a Flying weakness for a Ground one (from resisting the other type at first). It's interesting, and helps both normally pretty bad types to have to be useful when you need them to be, which if I'm not mistaken is what the concept is about.

 

[SotheBlacKnight]

I personally am for this CAP to have two different typings. It could allow for more versatility especially depending what we want this CAP to counter.

Hypothetically if we choose to counter something like Charizard we'd normally have to choose how to deal with one of it's mega evolution but with the ability to change everything including it's typing we can be a bit more liberal. For instance we can make the base form better at handling Charizard-Y with it's typing and it's Mega able to better handle Charizard-X by changing it's typing along with any stat changes.

 

[snake_rattler]

If we make a type change for the Mega-Evolution, we can have it "utility check/counter" two different groups of pokemon, but not at the same time (this actually sounds a lot like Krillowatt's concept...). If you choose not to mega-evolve it, it counters one group of mons; if you do mega-evolve it, it counters another group. However, you only have 4 move slots, so you can pretty much check only one group at a time, thus essentially giving two utility counters in one group, but you have to choose which you want. You also have to sacrifice your mega slot to counter the second set of pokes.

The mega should be able to counter a larger group of mons within this given scenario, so that people will actually use it, instead of just the base form. In my opinion, I think we should make CAP21's base form still viable so that you don't HAVE to run its mega just for it to work well. Otherwise, there's no point in making the CAP as megaCAP, we could just make pokemon with the stats of the megaCAP. This is just my opinion though.

 

[Bughouse]

I could see something working where the CAP has a base typing that is amazing defensively and upon mega evolving becomes amazing offensively.

Something like the second half of a dual typing (since Mega Evos only ever add or change second typing) going from Steel -> Ice. This particular combo would be very natural for countering Dragon types.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Given that our goal is "to stay out of situations where those downsides can really cost the Pokemon", it seems like type changing would probably be opportune. Towards the late game, it becomes much easier to target down a Pokemon your typing is strong against, so if the Pokemon only has its awkwarder typing in the late game, it's far more likely for that typing to become an asset.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

I would argue that having a typing change upon Mega Evolution allows us firstly to explore 2 different typing underdogs, and secondly to allow the non-megas typing a method of avoiding its weaknesses by Megavolving etc. etc. (I think enough of the advantages about the typing change has already been mentioned, so I'm not going to elaborate on this and instead move onto my main point)

In addition, since CAP 21 aims to explore Mega Evolution, it must surely have different roles (in this case, utility checks to different groups of Pokemon) because otherwise the Mega would just be the non-Mega with boosted stats? If we look at the majority of Megas (Garchomp, Sableye, Slowbro etc. etc.), then we can see that most of them change their roles upon Mega Evolution (e.g. Garchomp goes from a Tank to a Bulky Wallbreaker, while Sowbro goes from a Defensive Pivot to a Bulky Sweeper), with only a few (e.g. Aerodactyl, SD non-mega Scizor) keeping the same role, although in many cases this change in role can be somewhat small. At the very least, a change in role, however minute, allows to explore Mega Evolution in greater depth - something which must surely be an important objective for this project.

If you choose not to mega-evolve it, it counters one group of mons; if you do mega-evolve it, it counters another group. However, you only have 4 move slots, so you can pretty much check only one group at a time, thus essentially giving two utility counters in one group, but you have to choose which you want. You also have to sacrifice your mega slot to counter the second set of pokes.

This seems to be implying that a potential Mega CAP couldn't check both sets of Pokemon due to its limited amount of move slots, but I think that with the right movepool, typing and abilities, we should be able to allow this CAP to check both sets of Pokemon, so long as the CAP is in the correct forme (hence, typing and ability will be important). In fact, I think that we should aim to ensure that the CAP is able to do this.

 

[ginganinja]

Does a change in typing upon Mega evolution allow us to do a better job using poor typing to be a utility check? Or would we rather have the same typing before and after Mega evolution, allowing us to make our ability to check certain Pokemon not conditional on whether or not we’ve Mega evolved?

Mega Evoing is usually more of an instant thing, so you really need to be careful if you have a really shitty (or underdog) base type, and then a godlike Mega typing, because then you actually learn jack about the actual concept, an underdog typing, because the pokemon in question is never using it. I guess you can jump between one bad typing (base form) and another (Mega Form) and try and claim to counter two different groups of pokemon, but then that really puts a ton of pressure down the road in things like stats, and even then, 99% of the time you would still want to Mega Evo first and get the base statistics increase as soon as possible, so you can go back to walling more shit with your BST increase.

 

[Mowtom]

I think that our Mega probably should have the same type as its base form; our goal is to explore an undervalued typing. It would ask too much of us, imo, to try to make two undervalued typings both good, neither broken, and both actually seeing use because neither one is on a significantly better Pokemon.

 

[snake_rattler]

This seems to be implying that a potential Mega CAP couldn't check both sets of Pokemon due to its limited amount of move slots, but I think that with the right movepool, typing and abilities, we should be able to allow this CAP to check both sets of Pokemon, so long as the CAP is in the correct forme (hence, typing and ability will be important). In fact, I think that we should aim to ensure that the CAP is able to do this.

I only said this if the type change was going to be very drastic. If we go from, for example, Bug/Flying to Ice/Poison or something weird like that, there aren't enough move slots to go around to check both groups. If the type change isn't so drastic, then yes I agree with the Mega being able to check both groups of mons.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

I feel like if we do go down the route of a type change, the ideal situation is that it should (hopefully) try to retain the same amount of weaknesses and/or resistances in either form, but able to check different things. If we are able to do this, then we can maintain the 'utility counter' aspect we are looking for. Currently, 10 pokemon change their typing via Mega Evolution:

• Charizard (flying to dragon; same amount of weaknesses and one less resistance, loses immunity)
• Pinsir (gains flying; gains two weaknesses, one immunity and same amount of resistances)
• Gyarados (flying to dark; gains three weaknesses, one immunity and one more resistance)
• Mewtwo (gains fighting; no changes to number or weaknesses or resistance, but weaknesses changes )
• Ampharos (gains dragon; gains three weaknesses and three resistances)
• Aggron (loses rock; no change to number of weaknesses but weaknesses change, gains two resistances)
• Sceptile (gains dragon; gains one weakness, resistance turns into immunity via ability)
• Altaria (flying to fairy; same number of weaknesses, immunity changes, gains two resistances)
• Lopunny (gains fighting; gains three weakness and three resistances)
• Audino (gains fairy, gains one weakness, one immunity and two resistances)

As you can see, the most common type that come up the most is dragon, followed by fairy and fighting, with flying being removed. This can give us a guideline as to what want to achieve. When it comes to this ideal situation, Mewtwo, Aggron, Altaria and Charizard fit this as they retain the same amount of weakness/resistances more or less.

I'm not saying that is set in stone, and I don't want this to be the focus, but it's something to consider.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

Mega Evoing is usually more of an instant thing, so you really need to be careful if you have a really shitty (or underdog) base type, and then a godlike Mega typing, because then you actually learn jack about the actual concept, an underdog typing, because the pokemon in question is never using it. I guess you can jump between one bad typing (base form) and another (Mega Form) and try and claim to counter two different groups of pokemon, but then that really puts a ton of pressure down the road in things like stats, and even then, 99% of the time you would still want to Mega Evo first and get the base statistics increase as soon as possible, so you can go back to walling more shit with your BST increase.

Ginga puts forward some very good points. I think it should be obvious by now that both Mega and base will have poor typings, so let's not ponder over that too much.

I think we should aim to do something like Mega Alt or Mega Gyara, where both experience a typing and ability change. Alt's Natural Cure allows it to not fear, whilst Gyara's Intimidate is always useful. Both lose their Flying types and their defensive abilities for more powerful offensive abilities and stronger offensive secondary types. This means, for example, that Alt might like to stay unevolved in order to be immune to EQ and be able to risk being hit by status. Whilst these two examples are both DD set-up sweepers, rather than our utility check, the point is that both base and Mega formes have advantages and disadvantages that make the user think about when they should Mega Evolve, despite the relatively low BST and relatively poor defensive typing of base Altaria, and the dimished offensive power of base Gyara.

Having said that, it's somewhat rather difficult to make two formes that act like this (the point is not that they're equal, but rather that each has perks in different situations). The biggest stumbling block is how to make a +100 BST increase worth giving up, without making the base forme broken. Whilst Mowtom is correct in his assertion of the difficulty of this task, it is by no means impossible. In the above examples, it is the defensive ability and EQ immunity (i.e. resistance to an important type) that make the user think twice before Mega Evolving. We can give our base forme either an important resistance or immunity to a common offensive type in OU/a type that the mega forme is particularly weak to, or give it an excellent defensive ability that allows it to avoid KOs or status or something which annoys/cripples/forces out the mega forme, or both of the above. By doing this, we can balance a poor typing whilst simultaneously giving the user a reason to not Mega Evolve (like Dry Skin Mollux except with a Mega weak to Water). Alternatively, we can give the Mega forme a particularly bad typing which is balanced by its powerful offensive/defensive stats (kinda like Hoopa-U except less broken).

In essence, our dilemma is simpe: either we take on the challenge of trying to do both a typing underdog Mega and a typing underdog base forme, and ultimately learn and gain more from it, or we take the safe route, and just make the Mega have the same typing as the base forme.

However, if we are to take the safe route, what is to stop our users from simply instantly Mega Evolving for the big BST boost, thereby making the base forme almost redundant. If this is case, then it could almost be suggested that our exploration of Mega Evolution is nearly useless here, since we could just as well simply make a CAP with bloated BST (excepting the lack of item), could we not?

 

[ginganinja]

O.k, so here is the main issue: People are trying to do too much.

1. This CAP has a Mega evolution. This is history, and the community obviously wants to make it so that the Mega Evo is something actually useful, and not something pathetically tacky that we didn't need. Remember that Mega Evo mons almost always want to evolve quickly / early, AND that it cannot take a role already handled better by a non Mega pokemon.

2. The concept is called "Typing Underdog". Everyone already knows what this means but again, just in case someone missed it, it involves us using a weaker typing to great success.

3. The direction is that we go for a utility counter build for this CAP.

Obviously the main question on the table is whether CAP should have different typings. The trouble is, if it does, then you risk undermining one of those 3 principals above. I guess thats fine of the TL decides for instance, that he no longer wants utility counter to be a part of the design goal, but if its been spelled out, id rather we stick to it.

Mega Pokemon almost always want to evolve first. Mega Scizor wants to Mega Evolve early so it can use its bulk to good success, Mega Venusaur and Slowbro obviously want that stat increase ASAP, therefore there is utterly no reason to create a base form that seeks to counter one group of pokemon, while its Mega counters another, because you just won't stay in your base form. Its expecting your competitive player to give up 100 BST to counter one pokemon, and like...there is little point being a Mega mon in that case, because you won't Mega Evolve until what you counter is dead, so you might as well run Leftovers or idk, maybe run a different pokemon that can counter what you want the base form to cover, so you can focus on Mega Evolving?

In essence, our dilemma is simpe: either we take on the challenge of trying to do both a typing underdog Mega and a typing underdog base forme, and ultimately learn and gain more from it, or we take the safe route, and just make the Mega have the same typing as the base forme.

Yeah, but you couldn't do a typing underdog Mega, and a base form at the same time, because the direction the TL outlined was utility counter. If you look at pretty much (I think there are 1 or 2 exceptions though) every common wall in OU that has a Mega Evo, then it will Mega Evo ASAP, because why wouldn't you want those extra stats. You don't want a situation like "Whoops my Mega counters Keldeo but better not Mega Evolve because my base form checks Charizard X" because you end up with a lose lose situation. Is it possible to create a typing underdog Mega + Base form? Yes. Could CAP do it? No. I hate throwing that out as a reason, but you would need a huge amount of experience in OU to determine what actually makes a shitty typing, and then attempt to find two of them that would still be viable in OU, still have entirely different checks and counters, still want to prioritise Mega Evolving at all times (because otherwise why are you running a Mega Evo concept) still want to be viable in OU, and somehow justify someone running a Mega Slot on it. Remember that every single mega evo has competition from itself. You might want a Mega CAP that acts as a utility counter toward physical sweepers, but then you need to justify it over Skarmory and Landorus-T, that don't have Mega Evo's, do that job just as well, and allow you to run Mega Sableye, prolly the best Mega in OU at the moment.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Coincidentally enough, Mega Sableye also provides an interesting exploration of when to Mega Evolve during a match. While it doesn't change types like Mega Gyarados and Mega Altaria, it does exchange an ability that allows it to quickly heal itself or cripple an opponent (Prankster) for an ability that allows it to serve as both set-up sweeper and utility counter (Magic Bounce). Picking the right opportunity to Mega Evolve Sableye can be crucial to netting a win. This demonstrates that this concept can work both with and without a typing change.

I believe the key factor in deciding which route to pursue lies in figuring out what group of Pokemon we want CAP 21 to counter and in whether we want this group of Pokemon to be different for Mega CAP 21. Since specific typings can't be suggested just yet, I will put my own suggestions on hold until then. That said, as much as I am wary of being too ambitious after the last few CAP projects, I think it would be more rewarding to try to execute the concept with a typing change.

 

[nyttyn]

Mod Post: We're deciding both typings at once, and we are not making a mega evolution of an already existing pokemon. These two things have already been decided upon, and any posts past this point will receive an infraction for failing both to read the process, and failing to read this warning.

 

[LightningLord2]

I think we're fine with making the mega's typing generally better in most aspects of what it's trying and give the base form a typing that's situational - we could have a typing that's more favorable for switching in, for instance (such as Flying to dodge grounded hazards, Ground/Fighting to blunt SR, Grass to block Spore etc.). Our counter could have most of it's offensive presence from the undervalued typing, with the secondary typing mainly serving to cover its weaknesses.

Obviously, the biggest downside of Mega CAP 21 is the opportunity cost in forgoing another Mega. So if the base form on its own is viable, we shouldn't have too much trouble making both mega and non-mega sets function.

 

[sparktrain]

I have seen a few posts suggesting that changing typings upon Mega Evolution somehow goes against the concept, and I don't actually agree with this. In fact, having CAP21 change typings upon Mega Evolution can allow us to explore more than one undervalued typing. The way I see it, the real issue lies in that if CAP21's base and Mega typing happen to be vastly, or even moderately different in terms of what portions of the metagame they can and cannot check (note that the two typings may be equal, or at least roughly equal in terms of how "good" they are in terms of overall utility, i.e. how many useful resistances and immunities they have, how many weaknesses they have, their vulnerability to entry hazards, relevant portions of the metagame they can check, etc), this presents a dilemma that ginganinja outlined earlier with the Zard X / Keldeo example. Is it possible to pull off a successful typing change in terms of CAP21? Perhaps, I wouldn't count it out. Certain typings are more favorable for say, switching into Stealth Rock, and could potentially aid CAP21 in this regard. However, if said base form typing compromises CAP21's ability to switch into and check certain portions of the metagame that we're aiming for it to handle, then we run into the same dilemma outlined earlier (same goes for any of the traits I mentioned earlier when defined a "good" or "bad" typing).

As such, I'm personally leaning towards keeping CAP21's typing the same upon Mega Evolution, as I feel it would allow us to more fully (and safely) explore an "Underdog" typing without running into any of these potential issues when it comes to Mega Evolving or remaining in base form, while still taking into consideration the justification of running said Mega Evolution in place of CAP21+item. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of changing typings, however, if deem that said typings are "similar" enough in terms of overall utility as described earlier, but I feel this will be best analyzed once we know what portion of the metagame we'd like for CAP21 to handle.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

O.k, so here is the main issue: People are trying to do too much.
Mega Pokemon almost always want to evolve first. Mega Scizor wants to Mega Evolve early so it can use its bulk to good success, Mega Venusaur and Slowbro obviously want that stat increase ASAP, therefore there is utterly no reason to create a base form that seeks to counter one group of pokemon, while its Mega counters another, because you just won't stay in your base form.

I don't agree that Megas value their base formes as little as you say, and examples such as Natural Cure or Cloud Nine Altaria, Regen Slowbro, Speed Boost Sharpedo, Lightningrod Manectric, Intimidate or Moxie Gyarados, base forme Garchomp (for the speed), base forme Diancie (for the additional bulk) and Prankster Sableye all back me up. You even have things like Chlorophyll Venusaur, Limber Lopunny, Clear Body Metagross, Hyper Cutter or Moxie or Mold Breaker Pinsir to show how much Megas can utilise their base forme before Mega Evolution. (Yes, I realise that most of these utilise their abilities or stats rather than a different typing, but the point that Megas don't always Mega Evolve straight away still stands.


Having said that, I can't argue with:

O.k, so here is the main issue: People are trying to do too much.
You don't want a situation like "Whoops my Mega counters Keldeo but better not Mega Evolve because my base form checks Charizard X" because you end up with a lose lose situation. Is it possible to create a typing underdog Mega + Base form? Yes. Could CAP do it? No. I hate throwing that out as a reason, but you would need a huge amount of experience in OU to determine what actually makes a shitty typing, and then attempt to find two of them that would still be viable in OU, still have entirely different checks and counters, still want to prioritise Mega Evolving at all times (because otherwise why are you running a Mega Evo concept) still want to be viable in OU, and somehow justify someone running a Mega Slot on it. Remember that every single mega evo has competition from itself. You might want a Mega CAP that acts as a utility counter toward physical sweepers, but then you need to justify it over Skarmory and Landorus-T, that don't have Mega Evo's, do that job just as well, and allow you to run Mega Sableye, prolly the best Mega in OU at the moment.

That is, apart from the bit which seems to imply that this CAP should aim to Mega Evolve ASAP. I think that we should aim to make the base forme in some way useful, similar to the many OU Megas that I listed above, which means that we aren't always instantly clicking on the Mega Evolution button as fast as possible, but instead, making our users use their brains when using this CAP. I feel like we will be able to explore more of Mega Evolution if utilise the base forme in this Mega CAP, because, as I have said previously, we could just as easily just make a normal CAP with bloated stats (excepting the lack of items).

P.S: spark posted just as I was writing this, and his paragraph more or less puts into words my thoughts better than I have, excepting my suggestion to utilise the base forme.