CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[jas61292]

As per the results of our Typing Poll, CAP21 will be a Rock/Poison typed Pokemon. Based on this result and on the goals of our concept, we will in this thread be assessing how and to what degree the CAP should interact with various other Pokemon in the metagame, both offensively and defensively. The goal is to come up with a list of Pokemon the CAP should threaten in common gameplay scenarios, as well as Pokemon that should threaten the CAP. Our Topic Leader jas61292 will be leading the discussion and finalizing the Threats list at the conclusion of this thread. The final say belongs to the TL (there will be no poll at the end of this thread), so please focus your arguments on his posts and questions. Here are some preliminary questions to think about in this thread:

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
• What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
• Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
• Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
• What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
• What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?

Obviously, no individual post has to answer every question. Please keep the assumptions minimal (e.g. "CAP21 will have at least one STAB") to avoid poll-jumping. This thread will be opened once jas61292 has posted his opening remarks.

- - - - -

CAP21 so far:

Typing: Rock/Poison

Leadership Team:

jas61292 - Topic Leader
imanalt - Typing Leader
DetroitLolcat - Abilities Leader
sparktrain - Stats Leader
HeaLnDeaL- Movepool Leader

Concept:

Name: Typing Underdog

General Description: A Pokémon which utilizes an undervalued typing to its full potential, by playing towards both its strengths and weaknesses.

Justification: Each typing possesses a unique set of characteristics, causing all of them to perform very differently in various aspects of battle. However, not every typing has been granted the opportunity to display this potential, being forced into suboptimal roles by virtue of stats, ability and movepool, and therefore often being labelled as “bad”.
This concept aims to do a detailed analysis on the primary function of such a typing along with its potentially unexplored capabilities, by creating a Pokémon that that emphasizes the typing’s most prominent traits and utilizes them effectively.
This approach will not only allow us to widen our understanding on the unique niche and preferred playstyle of the typing, but will also give us additional insight on the mechanics that lead to success and failure of the typing when comparing CAP to the wielders in the lower tiers.

Questions to be answered:

• What are the most important traits the Pokémon gains from the chosen typing, both positive and negative?
• Is quality or quantity of weaknesses/resistances/immunities more relevant to the chosen typing? What does this mean for the way it is played?
• How significant is the niche provided by the typing in OU? Are there any striking flaws in the typing that can’t be played around and prevent the Pokémon from performing reliably?
• How reliant is the typing on stats, ability and movepool in order to succeed in OU?
• Are the unique characteristics granted by the typing enough to set the Pokemon apart, or does it face strong competition for its role from Pokémon of other types?
• Is there any distinct playstyle that suits the chosen typing the best? Or can the same typing be utilized in an entirely different approach to similar success?
• How important is a type’s versatility for its overall success?
• Is a single Pokémon capable of portraying most relevant aspects of the entire type?

 

[jas61292]

Hello again everyone. So, now that we have our typing, what we need to do is decide which Pokemon we want to have this CAP be a counter for. Just as importantly though, we need to decide which Pokemon we want to be able to beat it. With our concept being so heavily focused on typing it is pretty easy to take a look and see the Pokemon that our chosen typing was designed to be able to take care of: Flying and Fairy Pokemon such as Talonflame and Clefable will definitely have some issues with this typing. On the other hand, it is very easy to see that a Rock/Poison typing would naturally have issues with water types, such as Keldeo, and nearly anything that sometimes packs a ground type move.

As always, I believe that the key thing to remember in this stage is that we want to decide, not just what does threaten/is threatened by CAP21 based on typing, but what we actually want to threaten it/have it threaten. Its very simple to look at the typing and see that Garchomp threatens us, but that in and of itself is not all that helpful to us. Its the decision of whether we want things to threaten us or not that will actually help us the rest of the way.

To begin, I'd like to start with the Pokemon that we appear to naturally threaten by typing, but might have issues with if we do not specifically aim to beat. Chief among these are likely Flying and Fairy types that we do not have a clear cut good matchup against. An example here might be Mega Altaria, as we resist its main offensive move and have a super effective STAB to hit in return. But, because Altaria frequently runs Earthquake, it would be difficult, without the help of specifically tailored stats or abilities, for us to be able to switch into it and safely take it on. What I would like to ask here is, which Pokemon that are relevant in OU does our typing appear to naturally threaten, but might not be able to beat in practice, AND in each case, do we want to be able to beat that Pokemon?

On the other hand, we also have to look at the things that we do want to be able to beat us. It is fairly simple to look at our typing and say, for example, that Steel types threaten it. But depending on the Steel type, any given coverage move might take away its ability to be a true threat. So the question here is, of the Pokemon that naturally threaten us via typing, either defensively or offensively, which are the most important for use to have as threats to CAP21, and which, if any, would we really not want to be a threat?

Finally, I just want to re-emphasize one part of the concept itself. This concept is about making a Pokemon that utilizes a typing to its fullest by playing towards both its strengths AND weaknesses. While this does not mean we should aim to beat everything we have a natural type advantage against and lose to everything that we have a natural type disadvantage against, it does mean we should be very wary about trying to threaten anything that our typing provides only disadvantages against, or vice versa.

 

[Bughouse]

Pokemon that naturally threaten CAP 21

Alakazam
Mega Alakazam
Bisharp
Mega Diancie
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Gliscor
Gothitelle
Mega Gyarados
Heatran
Hippowdon
Hoopa-U
Jirachi
Keldeo
Klefki
Landorus-T
Latias
Latios
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Manaphy
Mega Medicham
Mega Metagross
Politoed (and obviously rain teams in general)
Rotom-W
Mega Scizor
Serperior (especially if HP Ground)
Skarmory
Slowbro
Mega Slowbro
Starmie
Suicune

Pokemon that may also threaten CAP 21 - based on their set and/or which is faster

Mega Aerodactyl, depending on EQ
Mega Altaria, depending on EQ
Azumarill
Mega Beedrill, depending on Drill Run
Mega Charizard-X, depending on EQ or Iron Tail and also which is faster
Mega Charizard-Y, depending on EQ and also which is faster
Mega Gardevoir, depending on which is faster
Gyarados
Kyurem-B, depending on Earth Power and also which is faster

That is a mindbogglingly huge list, but then it's a terrible typing weak to Water, Ground, Psychic, and Steel.

Contrarily, the only important Pokemon that Rock/Poison naturally beats are Clefable, Talonflame, and Tornadus-T (who can U-Turn out to a zillion counters anyway). Oh boy.

It seems to me that it will be critically important to capitalize specifically on that niche of beating Clefable and Talonflame at the same time. The only other mon that does that very consistently is Heatran. There's also an Excadrill in Sand, Manaphy, and some incredibly niche things like Snatch Rotom-H lol. But mostly just Heatran. Because the CAP thoroughly beats those 2 mons but offers the opponent so many easy switches based on its STABs alone, the CAP needs some way to easily gain momentum, either by entry hazards, voltturning, set-up, etc. That will be the only way to adequately address its shortcomings.

 

[dsm77773]

I think Bisharp is a bad threat to lose against, as it naturally threatens CAP21, and it's a true staple on HO and offensive teams in general (offense's the most common playstyle now), also is the best Defog stopper in the tier.
Non-HP Ground Serperior is also worth looking into imo, seeing how easily it snowballs out of hand.
And non-Earth Power Kyurem-B is a very scary wallbreaker that CAP21 should check imo, as Kyurem-B tends to destroy FWG defensive cores easily.
Agree with Bughouse about the Heatran issue.

 

[Ticktock]

Man, this typing has a lot of counters. Keldeo, Bisharp, and especially Landorus-T and Metagross can wipe this out in a turn. If it is specially defensive based, Bisharp will knock this out with a Iron Head if it's bulk is not up to standards. Others include Hippowdon, which it can OHKO it with Earthquake, (Mega) Scizor, which can faint to a Bullet Punch or even Superpower, Mega Metagross, which can kill it in any shape, and other walls like Ferrothorn and Skarmory. It can even fall victim to Keldeo's Secret Sword. If it is, however, more physically defensive based, it can survive physical hits a bit more often, excluding Earthquake, but makes you more vulnerable to anything with Earth Power, Starmie, Rotom-Wash, Magnezone, Manaphy, the Latis, and Heatran, as well as falling more often to Keldeo. It can counter these with somewhat results if it is has the right tools, but it is definitely a unlucky typing.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'll start with some data on what we threaten:

Per Viability Rankings (thru B) and September Stats, this is what we threaten:

Hide

| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
| 8 | Talonflame | 16.49407% | 526053 | 13.163% | 385507 | 12.866% |
| 9 | Clefable | 15.75271% | 406177 | 10.163% | 304109 | 10.149% |
| 15 | Azumarill | 13.72981% | 441714 | 11.052% | 337606 | 11.267% | (Threatens back Water STAB)
| 16 | Tornadus-Therian | 13.70412% | 208423 | 5.215% | 163985 | 5.473% |
| 32 | Kyurem-Black | 6.34145% | 156639 | 3.919% | 115405 | 3.852% | (Threatens back Earth Power)
| 33 | Breloom | 6.30027% | 262006 | 6.556% | 191757 | 6.400% | [Neutral Switch-in]
| 34 | Weavile | 6.12491% | 322774 | 8.076% | 234399 | 7.823% | [Neutral Switch-in]
| 37 | Gardevoir | 5.54991% | 241773 | 6.049% | 171521 | 5.724% | (Threatens back Psychic STAB)
| 44 | Togekiss | 4.33494% | 176586 | 4.418% | 127532 | 4.256% |
| 49 | Altaria | 3.80609% | 166214 | 4.159% | 118348 | 3.950% | (Threatens back EQ)
| 50 | Celebi | 3.63281% | 117003 | 2.928% | 89271 | 2.979% |
| 54 | Pinsir | 2.90182% | 98821 | 2.473% | 70201 | 2.343% | (Threatens back EQ)
| 76 | Volcarona | 1.35297% | 174663 | 4.370% | 123091 | 4.108% | (Threatens back HP Ground)
| 90 | Tangrowth | 0.79512% | 30093 | 0.753% | 22945 | 0.766% |
| 101 | Beedrill | 0.60659% | 62985 | 1.576% | 46533 | 1.553% | (Threatens back Drill Run)

Not a long list, but not barren either.

Taken together with the counters list, I think we should seriously discuss removing the threat of Ground coverage on our target Pokemon.

This would remove very few counters from our overall list (basically Hippowdon, Chompy, and Lando-T, as Gliscor likes being poisoned and Exca is Steel) just mows us down with Dragon STAB) but firmly establish CAP 21's base form as useful in its own right, allowing our Mega Slot to focus on a different niche. There are of course multiple ways to do this, one being Air Balloon, but with no natural immunities to switch in with that is a risky prospect.

I think Steel-types are foregone as counters. They are immune to Poison/Toxic and resist Rock, and both Mega-Metagross and Bisharp have incredible offensive power and enough defense to survive unSTABbed coverage. Psychic types force us out but take heavy damage or are statused. Of them, Bisharp can be addressed with fighting coverage but the rest of the Steels are going to salivate when CAP 21 is out.

Bughouse notes that Heatran can play a similar role as far as taking on both Clefable and Talonflame at once. What separates CAP is fighting neutrality, the potential to absorb Toxic Spikes, and the Sp.D boost is Sandstorm. Those are not very large for all the drawbacks, the selling point is the ability to pivot in and hit with the more offense-oriented Rock STAB.

 

[Alfalfa]

Primary targets should be Clefable, Torn T, Weavile, and Talonflame. All four of them are threatened by this CAP without much to beat it, except for Talon's Will-O-Wisp.

Primary threats are naturally Steels and Grounds due to the CAP's typing. I am uncertain how to address this issue without neutering its weaknesses entirely through abilities, but I am certain we can figure something out.

 

[WhiteDMist]

I'm actually going to try and answer the last question first, because I think that is the most important thing to have in our minds (after all, the whole point of this concept was to have an undervalued typing, meaning we already knew there would be a lot of threats to it).

• What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?

This typing naturally will face competition as a Flying and Fairy counter with Heatran, which does not take up a Mega slot AND allows you to use another Mega that has a less situational niche. It also faces competition with Mega Tyranitar/Mega Diancie for a Rock Mega slot, and Mega Venusaur for a Mega Poison slot. While the former three all counter Talonflame (unless it carries Natural Gift or Will-O-Wisp for T-tar) and Heatran and M-Venusaur counter Clefable, none of them are perfect counters to Mega Charizard-Y, due to Focus Blast threatening Heatran and T-Tar, Solarbeam threatening M-Diancie, and Sun-boosted Fire STAB terrifying M-Venusaur despite Thick Fat. A CAP with Rock/Poison typing should be a perfect counter to it (unfortunately, Earthquake is a possible option on it as well), which also might mean that (possibly in Sandstorm) it checks other Special attackers that cannot hit it super effectively.

Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Gengar, Volcarona, and Raikou (non-Extrasensory at least) should all at least be checked outside of Sandstorm, and absolutely countered IN Sandstorm. This typing also naturally should be effective against Weavile, who should be able to do too much to it (Knock Off is weak due to being a Mega, Low Kick is neutral, and Ice moves are also neutral) while this type can naturally threaten it out.

This list is significant as many of these Pokemon carry Fighting coverage, which would otherwise neutralize Heatran and T-Tar. I think that taking advantage of this fact will be key to making this typing's niche be of any use, the neutrality to Fighting coverage. Note that I only mean Pokemon that use Fighting moves used as a non-STAB coverage option, not against Fighting-types themselves. This is my answer to this question:

• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?

Everything else is in HIDE tags cause I ramble too much.

• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?

Hide

As I've said, Mega-Charizard-Y should be countered or forced to carry the less effective Earthquake (which makes T-Tar a bigger problem for it). Perhaps Mega-Charizard-X can be checked as well, barring being at +2 or carrying Earthquake itself (though looking at the Dex, only bulky Will-O sets carry it). Mega-Pidgeot is technically countered, 70% of the time, and still checked even if Hurricane confuses the CAP. The only other Pokemon that jumps out at me is Togekiss. It is a Fairy that doesn't have a coverage move to destroy this CAP (M-Diancie anyone?), but can easily flinch this CAP to death if it lacks Sand support to lessen to stacking amounts of damage.

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?

Hide

A lot. From the VR rankings: Manaphy, Mega Alakazam, Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Heatran, Hoopa-Unbound, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Mega Metagross, Mega Scizor, Gliscor, Mega Gyrados, Mew, Mega Slowbro, and Tyranitar all give this CAP trouble with typing alone. This just looks at Pokemon that aren't too vulnerable to the STAB moves of this type and can also threaten back with STAB moves alone. More are added to this list if you look at coverage options, and while this CAP can offensively threaten stuff like Mega Altaria, it really has the Achilles Heel with that 4x Ground-type weakness.

Ground-types and Ground coverage was noted in the typing discussion as something EXTREMELY common in the OU metagame, which became a problem that the chosen type would have to address one extreme or another. This typing addresses it by accepting its weakness to it and looking to work around it. It would be great to remove the Ground weakness somehow, but it also wouldn't be in the spirit of the concept so I don't really see that working out.

• Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?

Hide

I'm actually questioning this typing's ability to succeed without going out of our way to cover its weaknesses: Ground and Steel moves are pretty common in just the S and A ranks, and there are so many Pokemon to account for. The amount of stuff this typing counters is pretty small in comparison, and even adding Pokemon this typing checks doesn't make that huge a difference. There is also the requirement of Sand support to maximize the assets of this typing, which requires Hippowdon, stacking an extra Water weakness as well. You can also use Tyranitar, but then why bother with the CAP at all, and stacking weaknesses to Water and Ground is just terrible. This list of threats is not very acceptable to make a viable OU Pokemon (at least based solely on typing) and unfortunately that is the specific end goal of this concept: making a Pokemon with an undervalued type utilize the typing's best traits effectively in the OU metagame.

• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?

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Typing-wise, Pokemon that are threatened by Rock/Poison STAB is a wider list that Pokemon that are actually countered. Most Fire, Fairy, and Flying-types dislike taking any STAB moves, and most Grass-types also dislike Poison STAB as a bonus. Sadly, in the S and A+ ranks, such STABs really only threaten M Charizard-x, Clefable, Azumarill, and Mega Altaria.

• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?

Hide

Considering the limitations of this typing, we want to threaten as many Pokemon as we possibly can, and especially counter as many as possible. Since the list of Pokemon this typing counters and threatens is so small compared to the list of Pokemon that threaten it, there really isn't a question about this if we want this to actually be used.

 

[Cretacerus]

I think we have to ask ourselves whether the Rock/Poison typing is really suitable for the role of a pure utility counter who relies on walling certain threats completely. The concept was meant to explore a typing's natural niche in the metagame, so we have to be vary of forcing Rock/Poison into a role it wouldn't naturally fulfill. Before removing something as defining as its Ground-type weakness in order to turn CAP into a wall, we should see if there are not perhaps other ways the typing can perform without a need to patch up its weaknesses on such a large scale.

I'm not suggesting to completely give up the role of a utility counter, but perhaps we should increase our scope to offensively threaten Pokemon we can't directly wall such as Gardevoir, Kyurem and Pinsir in sort of a pivoting role. As has been mentioned, CAP gets strong competition from Heatran in the niche of countering both Flying- and Fairy-types, so actively taking advantage of the completely different STABs would go a long way in distinguishing CAP through typing alone. Even though the list of threats Rock/Poison can reliably wall is very limited, it can switch in against common attacking moves such as Fire, Fairy, Flying and Dark on a significantly wider pool of Pokemon if necessary, and proceed to exert offensive pressure against the opponent.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Anything in Bold is possibly a MAJOR counter to this CAP. I went slightly beyond OU to see what else there could be issues with that have some appearances in OU.

Pokemon that naturally threaten CAP 21

Alakazam/Alakazam-Mega
Bisharp
Blastoise
Blissey (If special attack CAP)
Celebi
Chansey (If special attack CAP)
Crawdaunt
Excadrill (BIG problem, resists heavily/immune to both STABS, 2 super-effective options)
Gallade-Mega
Garchomp (Really common, fast offense ground type. I mean, there isn't much to explain.)
Gliscor
Gothitelle
Hippowdon
Hoopa Unbound
Jirachi
Keldeo
Landorus-T
Latios/Latios Mega
Latias/Latias Mega
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Manaphy
Medicham-Mega
Metagross/Metagross-Mega
Rotom-W
Scizor/Scizor-Mega
Slowbro/Slowbro-Mega
SWAMPERT (It is going to be incredibly hard for CAP 21 to even touch Swampert without a grass move)
Starmie
Suicune
Venusaur

Pokemon that may become offensive counters or lures for CAP21

Altaria-Mega (DD EQ set, as mentioned by jas in an earlier post.)
Azumarill (Use belly drum when switch in to take poison type advantage, uses aqua jet.)
Beedrill-Mega (Drill Run)
Charizard-Mega X (DD EQ set)
Diancie/Diancie Mega (Only with Earth Power)
Dragonite (EQ)
Gardevoir-Mega (Depending on speeds)
Gyarados (EQ)
Heatran (Immunity, usually carries earth power)
Kyurem-Black (Depending on speed and if it has earth power)
Mew (If given earth power, EQ, etc.)

Pokemon counter CAP21 based off of typing (Depending on what moves the CAP21 will have)

Ferrothorn
Excadrill
Garchomp
Klefki
Sableye
Metagross-Mega
Skarmory
Venusaur

As well as many of the Pokemon listed in the first list. I just think these are among the most prominent.

Pokemon that this CAP will counter, as a hopefully capable rock type (Bold is excellent against)

Breloom
Charizard/Charizard-Mega Y
Clefable
Pinsir-Mega
Scolipede
Serperior (possibly, depending on Stats)
Sylveon
Talonflame (Hopefully)
Thunderus
Togekiss
Tornadus
Volcarona
Weavile
Zapdos

Several Pokemon CAP 21 would counter are not mentioned due to never being seen.

I believe CAP 21's typing is pretty neutral to all the not mentioned OU Pokemon. This is gonna be one doozy of a Pokemon CAP to pull off with so many threats and possible threats without very many things it can counter in OU. I mean, there isn't particularly much to do with these specific resistances either.
4x: Ground
2x: Steel, Psychic, Water
1/2: Fire, Fairy, Flying, Normal
1/4: Poison

 

[Draco Blue]

What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?

As we've stated, the only two things we really hard counter are Clefable and Talonflame (and that's if the latter doesn't have WoW.) Outside of that, I think probably the most important point made so far is that CAP's typing is more threatening in OU offensively than defensively. Most of the Pokemon we threaten offensively have equally good SE options to hit us, and decent bulk as well (Azumarill, Kyurem-B, Gardevoir, M-Altaria). In other words, we can't merely rely on our defenses; we'll need to make good use of our STABs if we're going to stay alive/be a threat to anything. With that said, I think a meaty attacking stat will go a long way in keeping our list of Pokemon we threaten secure. I agree with Cretacerus that we may need to adjust our direction slightly to something like a utility pivot, rather than trying to pigeonhole the typing.

Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?

As previously stated, Steel- and Ground-types are a foregone conclusion. Our STABs won't do anything no matter what the offenses, and they hit hard back. This means Chompy, Hippo, Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T and Megagross. These all switch in comfortably and generally threaten to KO us (with the exception of Ferrothorn who will have SOME way to be problematic).

I think after answering both of these, we can best answer the question: What must be done in order to eliminate these threats from counter discussion?

Keeping in mind that I think we should have some sort of decent offenses, I think outside of this our best options to apply pressure are either good coverage moves, or good non-attacking moves. Really the only viably useful offensive coverage type we'll have access to will be Ground (as Rock-types usually do). This would help against Steel-types in theory, but it would probably demand too much from our offenses, our coverage is still shit, and CAP could use that turn to do other things. So since CAP isn't likely to be able to deal with its biggest threats in Ground- and Steel-types, I think it should probably focus more on threatening its Psychic- and Water-type threats.

I think loading up CAP with useful non-attacking moves could be a good direction to take. It also helps it fit into the intended role of a utility counter based on what it's given. It's interesting to note that the bulky Ground-types that will want to switch into CAP will certainly not enjoy a surprise Toxic. Toxic would be a major boon against bulky Water-types as well, and M-Alakazam and M-Gardevoir also don't enjoy it. While Toxic doesn't help us against Steel-types, it does have utility against offensive checks who may try to switch in on CAP's "safer" STAB (Hoopa, Keldeo, Tyranitar, Serperior, etc). I think CAP's movepool, and specifically its support options, will be integral to how it is played/what counters we can eliminate.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?

As we've stated, the only two things we really hard counter are Clefable and Talonflame (and that's if the latter doesn't have WoW.) Outside of that, I think probably the most important point made so far is that CAP's typing is more threatening in OU offensively than defensively. Most of the Pokemon we threaten offensively have equally good SE options to hit us, and decent bulk as well (Azumarill, Kyurem-B, Gardevoir, M-Altaria). In other words, we can't merely rely on our defenses; we'll need to make good use of our STABs if we're going to stay alive/be a threat to anything. With that said, I think a meaty attacking stat will go a long way in keeping our list of Pokemon we threaten secure. I agree with Cretacerus that we may need to adjust our direction slightly to something like a utility pivot, rather than trying to pigeonhole the typing.

Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?

As previously stated, Steel- and Ground-types are a foregone conclusion. Our STABs won't do anything no matter what the offenses, and they hit hard back. This means Chompy, Hippo, Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T and Megagross. These all switch in comfortably and generally threaten to KO us (with the exception of Ferrothorn who will have SOME way to be problematic).

I think after answering both of these, we can best answer the question: What must be done in order to eliminate these threats from counter discussion?

Keeping in mind that I think we should have some sort of decent offenses, I think outside of this our best options to apply pressure are either good coverage moves, or good non-attacking moves. Really the only viably useful offensive coverage type we'll have access to will be Ground (as Rock-types usually do). This would help against Steel-types in theory, but it would probably demand too much from our offenses, our coverage is still shit, and CAP could use that turn to do other things. So since CAP isn't likely to be able to deal with its biggest threats in Ground- and Steel-types, I think it should probably focus more on threatening its Psychic- and Water-type threats.

I think loading up CAP with useful non-attacking moves could be a good direction to take. It also helps it fit into the intended role of a utility counter based on what it's given. It's interesting to note that the bulky Ground-types that will want to switch into CAP will certainly not enjoy a surprise Toxic. Toxic would be a major boon against bulky Water-types as well, and M-Alakazam and M-Gardevoir also don't enjoy it. While Toxic doesn't help us against Steel-types, it does have utility against offensive checks who may try to switch in on CAP's "safer" STAB (Hoopa, Keldeo, Tyranitar, Serperior, etc). I think CAP's movepool, and specifically its support options, will be integral to how it is played/what counters we can eliminate.

I totally agree with this. This thing is going to have to be killer in pressuring offenses, maybe with speed or attack or special attack, but this thing might want some decent stats good coverage, and ability to push it's STABs in hard and to the point if it wants to do any good in OU. Maybe if it had a grass type coverage move it could take a few shots at some water types and ground types, but still couldn't touch Ferrothorn and Scizor, two top OU threats against CAP 21. Excadrill wouldn't mind a neutral grass move too much either unfortunately. Maybe T-Wave or Glare, or some method of slowing opponents down, would help against general opponents that are faster and nail them on switches, or toxic as Draco Blue said. Both are fairly plausible. I also believe this CAP would appreciate some sort of priority move due to tough priority opponents like Metagross, Scizor, and Azumarill, and also fast Pokemon it could check, such as T-Flame and Weavile. CAP 21 wouldn't mind WoW too much if it is a special attacker, giving it a better chance against T-Flame, but yeah, it would not be much fun to be burned. I mean, it isn't for any Pokemon really.

Going on one of the last questions posed by Jas in the first post, I think it would be beautiful if there could be some way of nailing Lando-T on switch-ins, making it a little more wary of coming in as a counter. I don't know if this would be by an ability like defiant, competitive, or contrary, or with an ice/water type move, or some other method, but then that would give CAP 21 a major benefit right then and there.

Unless the intended victims of CAP 21 start running really absurd sets and attempting to adapt to CAP 21, such as a Clefable running psychic/psyshock, T-Flame running steel wing (I cringe and that one), Breloom using iron tail (Barf), or who-knows-what incredibly weird things, it should at least check it's intended targets very well.

 

[ginganinja]

jas61292

Yo TL, got a question thats going to be relevant realllllly soon, not just in this thread, but in future ones and its really important we sort this out now. Its prolly more relevent to the ability poll, but id rather get an answer from the TL rather than the ability TLT leader, and besides, it still connects up with this threats discussion anyway.

General Description: A Pokémon which utilizes an undervalued typing to its full potential, by playing towards both its strengths and weaknesses.

O.k, so my question is do we really want this CAP to be utterly defined by its typing?

See, people have already highlighted weaknesses to like, Ground and Water types, and we can decide we want this CAP to counter them, within this discussion, and I guess thats fine. What I want to sort out though, is how these types get handled. You see, if (say) we all pick Levitate or Storm Drain because we decide to counter Garchomp / Manaphy, then you really take away most of the negatives of the typing. It doesn't stand out, and its not really an "undervalued typing", because its getting carried by Leviate etc. You stated above, that we really want this pokemon to use its typing to its fullest extent and potential, so really, does this mean that if we decide to counter specific ground and water types, then "type immune" abilities wouldn't be encouraged simply because its no longer a "bad" typing?

Also this might be polljumping or w.e but idk, I'd prefer this gets answered either here or on IRC, so that it doesn't lead to confusion down the road, or people getting upset that we wound up locked into a situation thats difficult to get out of.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

jas61292

Yo TL, got a question thats going to be relevant realllllly soon, not just in this thread, but in future ones and its really important we sort this out now. Its prolly more relevent to the ability poll, but id rather get an answer from the TL rather than the ability TLT leader, and besides, it still connects up with this threats discussion anyway.



O.k, so my question is do we really want this CAP to be utterly defined by its typing?

See, people have already highlighted weaknesses to like, Ground and Water types, and we can decide we want this CAP to counter them, within this discussion, and I guess thats fine. What I want to sort out though, is how these types get handled. You see, if (say) we all pick Levitate or Storm Drain because we decide to counter Garchomp / Manaphy, then you really take away most of the negatives of the typing. You stated above, that we really want this pokemon to use its typing to its fullest extent and potential, so really, does this mean that if we decide to counter specific ground and water types, then "type immune" abilities wouldn't be encouraged simply because its no longer a "bad" typing?

Also this might be polljumping or w.e but idk, I'd prefer this gets answered either here or on IRC, so that it doesn't lead to confusion down the road, or whinging statements down the road such as "Aww what do you mean this is off the table, how are we meant to counter X now?".

That is true. I mean, the ability is a HUGE part of what defines the CAP. However, I do think this is kinda poll jumping, but it is also relevant at the same time. I think right now we are mostly looking at what the threats are that we will want to be able to handle with abilities or whatnot. It's up to the TL though if this is something that should be thought upon more now or later.

 

[jas61292]

jas61292

Yo TL, got a question thats going to be relevant realllllly soon, not just in this thread, but in future ones and its really important we sort this out now. Its prolly more relevent to the ability poll, but id rather get an answer from the TL rather than the ability TLT leader, and besides, it still connects up with this threats discussion anyway.



O.k, so my question is do we really want this CAP to be utterly defined by its typing?

See, people have already highlighted weaknesses to like, Ground and Water types, and we can decide we want this CAP to counter them, within this discussion, and I guess thats fine. What I want to sort out though, is how these types get handled. You see, if (say) we all pick Levitate or Storm Drain because we decide to counter Garchomp / Manaphy, then you really take away most of the negatives of the typing. It doesn't stand out, and its not really an "undervalued typing", because its getting carried by Leviate etc. You stated above, that we really want this pokemon to use its typing to its fullest extent and potential, so really, does this mean that if we decide to counter specific ground and water types, then "type immune" abilities wouldn't be encouraged simply because its no longer a "bad" typing?

Also this might be polljumping or w.e but idk, I'd prefer this gets answered either here or on IRC, so that it doesn't lead to confusion down the road, or people getting upset that we wound up locked into a situation thats difficult to get out of.

In my opinion, we do want to be defined by our typing, but that does not have to be the only thing defining us. As was shown very well in the concept assessment, almost every time you have a Pokemon that is good thanks to its typing, this is only the case thanks to the other tools it can use alongside that typing. The concept itself wants us to utilize both the strengths and weaknesses of the typing, to make a Pokemon that exemplifies its type. With that said if a type has many defining features, then losing out on a single one of them the sake of having a good Pokemon would be fine. Like, with your example of Manaphy, if our Pokemon would still be seen primarily as a check for the things like Fairies and Talonflame, and was still mostly notably beaten thanks to its huge ground weakness, then having something like Water Absorb to prevent Manaphy from being a crippling check would be fine. However, if the addition of a Water immune ability would transform our Pokemon so that it was primarily known as a water type check, something that is in no way in line with what the typing is about, then that would be an issue. Whether this is or is not the case though, is something I would want to see people make a case for in their ability arguments.

With that said, if you do think that any given Pokemon would be too crippling for us to lose to, this is definitely the place to bring it up. Even if we don't choose to go with specific abilities, we can always tailor stats and movepools and whatnot to prevent any given Pokemon from threatening us as best we can.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Here's a weird question. If we're having the Pokemon be defined by its typing, does it make any sense for this thing to still be a utility mon? The way I see it, what we've really gathered from the discussion thus far is that Clefable, Talonflame, and Chansey all get straight up beaten by this typing, but for most other mons it needs either a movepool or ability to get by. With that in mind, along with the fact that all three mons I've listed see play on stall teams, is there really a point in not making this a Stallbreaker? It has a nice Toxic immunity, it gets super-effective STAB against both Defensive Fairies and Defensive Flyings, and most of Stalls signature Pokemon lack Earthquake. Really, all it needs is either a move or ability that gets it past Water types, and this would be the ideal stallbreaker.

 

[LightningLord2]

I'm pretty sure we should have more things we can check/counter than Clefable and Talonflame, as Aggron does that already (and has a Mega to boot).
Also, I'm kinda iffy about a physical attack CAP as our best physical STAB possibilities (Stone Edge, Gunk Shot) have low accuracy and PP, which could make it unappealing to use.

The one thing I want is coverage against Ground- and/or Steel-Types so we can at least check them a little bit, otherwise our CAP will find itself walled easily as long as either one of these is present.

 

[snake_rattler]

On the subject of Manaphy, doesn't it have access to Psychic? I don't play OU very much at all, but I know it has access to it, and a +3 super effective (though non-STAB) 90BP attack will put a dent into CAP21 unless we really inflate its Special Defense stat. If CAP21 is so threatening to check (or counter, though I doubt it lol) it when it runs its most common moves, would Manaphy forgo another coverage move to run Psychic?

 

[Blackdrakon30]

On the subject of Manaphy, doesn't it have access to Psychic? I don't play OU very much at all, but I know it has access to it, and a +3 super effective (though non-STAB) 90BP attack will put a dent into CAP21 unless we really inflate its Special Defense stat. If CAP21 is so threatening to check (or counter, thought I doubt it lol) it when it runs its most common moves, would Manaphy forgo another coverage move to run Psychic?

Doesn't Manaphy already get STAB and supereffective Scald on CAP 21? It wouldn't necessarily need psychic when it has a far more favorable option already in it's arsenal without forfeiting and coverage. It's still a fairly valid point though. Even if it has an ability like Dry Skin, Water Absorb, or something else entirely, it would still have an easy way to hurt CAP 21, STAB or not.

Maybe some strong fighting coverage moves could help out against Excadrill and Ferrothorn. Still wouldn't touch garchomp, but I mean, there's not much that can.
A powerful grass coverage could hit mono-ground hippos as well as water type like Azumarill, Keldeo, and Manaphy fairy hard, perhaps?
And Ice coverage i think would be a massive help for this CAP. It desperately wants it I feel, and could be more effective with it. It would help ward off Lando-T and GChomp
Ground type coverage could also help against Excadrill, but not much else.
Last but not least, dark or ghost coverage could help against only psychic types.

Sorry if that was poll jumping or something, but I mean, it is REALLY relevant. CAP 21 could probably stand firm against some of the weaknesses it has or at least dish damage on them if you predict a switch depending on the coverage it gets. I'm not seeing many good options here, however. What I was trying to point out is CAP 21 might not have many ways to actually do much to the threats that it faces, with a lot of the types it is weak to having different weaknesses.

 

[LightningLord2]

These lists could be helpful:

OU mons weak to Rock

Altaria (base only)
Charizard (all forms)
Clefable
Dragonite
Gyarados (base only)
Kyurem-Black
Talonflame
Thundurus
Tornadus-T
Zapdos

OU mons weak to Poison

Altaria (mega only)
Azumarill
Breloom
Celebi
Clefable
Gardevoir (all forms)
Serperior
Sylveon

OU mons of which we resist all STABs

Chansey
Charizard (Base + Mega Y)
Clefable
Lopunny (base only)
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tornadus-T

OU mons of which we resist all STABs with Levitate

Chansey
Charizard (Base + Mega Y)
Clefable
Gliscor
Hippowdon
Landorus-T
Lopunny (base only)
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tornadus-T

OU mons of which we resist all STABs with Water Absorb/Dry Skin/Storm Drain

Azumarill
Chansey
Charizard (Base + Mega Y)
Clefable
Gyarados (base only)
Keldeo
Lopunny (base only)
Manaphy
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tornadus-T

 

[Blackdrakon30]

These lists could be helpful:

OU mons weak to Rock

Altaria (base only)
Charizard (all forms)
Clefable
Dragonite
Gyarados (base only)
Kyurem-Black
Talonflame
Thundurus
Tornadus-T
Zapdos

OU mons weak to Poison

Altaria (mega only)
Azumarill
Breloom
Celebi
Clefable
Gardevoir (all forms)
Serperior
Sylveon

OU mons of which we resist all STABs

Chansey
Charizard (Base + Mega Y)
Clefable
Lopunny (base only)
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tornadus-T

OU mons of which we resist all STABs with Levitate

Chansey
Charizard (Base + Mega Y)
Clefable
Gliscor
Hippowdon
Landorus-T
Lopunny (base only)
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tornadus-T

OU mons of which we resist all STABs with Water Absorb/Dry Skin/Storm Drain

Azumarill
Chansey
Charizard (Base + Mega Y)
Clefable
Gyarados (base only)
Keldeo
Lopunny (base only)
Manaphy
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tornadus-T

That is pretty useful in my opinion. Gives us some better thought on what this Pokemon could check, and what it can check.

I'll start with some data on what we threaten:

Per Viability Rankings (thru B) and September Stats, this is what we threaten:

Hide

| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
| 8 | Talonflame | 16.49407% | 526053 | 13.163% | 385507 | 12.866% |
| 9 | Clefable | 15.75271% | 406177 | 10.163% | 304109 | 10.149% |
| 15 | Azumarill | 13.72981% | 441714 | 11.052% | 337606 | 11.267% | (Threatens back Water STAB)
| 16 | Tornadus-Therian | 13.70412% | 208423 | 5.215% | 163985 | 5.473% |
| 32 | Kyurem-Black | 6.34145% | 156639 | 3.919% | 115405 | 3.852% | (Threatens back Earth Power)
| 33 | Breloom | 6.30027% | 262006 | 6.556% | 191757 | 6.400% | [Neutral Switch-in]
| 34 | Weavile | 6.12491% | 322774 | 8.076% | 234399 | 7.823% | [Neutral Switch-in]
| 37 | Gardevoir | 5.54991% | 241773 | 6.049% | 171521 | 5.724% | (Threatens back Psychic STAB)
| 44 | Togekiss | 4.33494% | 176586 | 4.418% | 127532 | 4.256% |
| 49 | Altaria | 3.80609% | 166214 | 4.159% | 118348 | 3.950% | (Threatens back EQ)
| 50 | Celebi | 3.63281% | 117003 | 2.928% | 89271 | 2.979% |
| 54 | Pinsir | 2.90182% | 98821 | 2.473% | 70201 | 2.343% | (Threatens back EQ)
| 76 | Volcarona | 1.35297% | 174663 | 4.370% | 123091 | 4.108% | (Threatens back HP Ground)
| 90 | Tangrowth | 0.79512% | 30093 | 0.753% | 22945 | 0.766% |
| 101 | Beedrill | 0.60659% | 62985 | 1.576% | 46533 | 1.553% | (Threatens back Drill Run)

Not a long list, but not barren either.

Taken together with the counters list, I think we should seriously discuss removing the threat of Ground coverage on our target Pokemon.

This would remove very few counters from our overall list (basically Hippowdon, Chompy, and Lando-T, as Gliscor likes being poisoned and Exca is Steel) just mows us down with Dragon STAB) but firmly establish CAP 21's base form as useful in its own right, allowing our Mega Slot to focus on a different niche. There are of course multiple ways to do this, one being Air Balloon, but with no natural immunities to switch in with that is a risky prospect.

I think Steel-types are foregone as counters. They are immune to Poison/Toxic and resist Rock, and both Mega-Metagross and Bisharp have incredible offensive power and enough defense to survive unSTABbed coverage. Psychic types force us out but take heavy damage or are statused. Of them, Bisharp can be addressed with fighting coverage but the rest of the Steels are going to salivate when CAP 21 is out.

Bughouse notes that Heatran can play a similar role as far as taking on both Clefable and Talonflame at once. What separates CAP is fighting neutrality, the potential to absorb Toxic Spikes, and the Sp.D boost is Sandstorm. Those are not very large for all the drawbacks, the selling point is the ability to pivot in and hit with the more offense-oriented Rock STAB.

Ugh yea steel types are going to be murder on this thing. Maybe if it got certain entry hazards of stealth rock, spikes, ad/or toxic spikes, there could be a niche for it right then and there, but this is not going to be easy for CAP 21. Lol if only we had No Guard or something: Mixed sweeper with Stone Edge, Gunk Shot, and Focus Blast :P srry getting off of the topic and poll hopping. Ummmmmm I do think that depending on the stats steel types can be countered on two fronts: If there is a powerful ground move in CAP 21's arsenal, special or physical, and maybe if there is also a fire type move, special or physical.

Mod Edit: merged doublepost

... Srry about that. Ill avoid that in the future. I think the Pokemon with the most similar weaknesses right now in Pokemon is Terrakion (I think), and Terrakion has a few more weaknesses, but more offensive presence. Celebi seems like a good partner to CAP 21 based off of just typing.

 

[Empress]

Which Pokemon that are relevant in OU does our typing appear to naturally threaten, but might not be able to beat in practice, AND in each case, do we want to be able to beat that Pokemon?

Hmmm. Going by typing alone, we've got...

Mega Charizard X
Azumarill
Mega Altaria
Talonflame (if it uses WoW on the switch, CAP 21 loses if it's a physical attacker)
Mega Gardevoir
Kyurem-B
Mega Aerodactyl
Celebi (minor concern, as EP and Psychic sets are not that common)
Mega Pinsir
Serperior
Volcarona
Dragonite
Mega Beedrill
Tangrowth

While we can check all of these threats, they check us back depending on what our stats are and what moves they use. Perhaps the only thing that Rock/Poison itself truly counters is Clefable. Jeepers.

I agree with Deck's proposition that it's very important to avoid Ground coverage, as some of the Pokemon that carry it, such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Altaria, Kyurem-B, and (to a lesser extent) Dragonite, are pretty threatening to the balance teams that CAP 21 will probably find itself on.

Of the Pokemon that naturally threaten us via typing, either defensively or offensively, which are the most important for use to have as threats to CAP21, and which, if any, would we really not want to be a threat?

First let's see what threatens us by typing alone. (/me braces himself)

Manaphy
Alakazam and Mega Alakazam
Bisharp
Excadrill
Garchomp
Heatran
Hippowdon
Hoopa-U
Keldeo
Landorus-T
Latios
Mega Metagross
Scizor and Mega Scizor
Gliscor
Gyarados and Mega Gyarados
Latias
Slowbro and Mega Slowbro
Jirachi
Klefki
Magnezone
Mega Medicham
Politoed
Rotom-W
Starmie
Feraligatr
Kabutops
Kingdra
Mamoswine
Mega Swampert
Gothitelle
Reuniclus
Slowking

Wow. I'm sure I missed a few too. The two biggest threats to balanced teams on this list would probably be Manaphy and Hoopa-U. As ginganinja said, with Manaphy being the bigger threat (and, in general, the best balance breaker in the metagame), it's something that we really, really don't want to lose to. Unfortunately, depending on how we go about dealing with Manaphy, we'll probably find ourselves with a gaping weakness to the Pokemon that run Ground-type coverage that I mentioned above, and vice versa if we go about stopping those EQ and EP users. It really is a case of "pick your poison."

May elaborate later on what we want to threaten us.

 

[LightningLord2]

I want to put out upfront that even though we should leave our CAP checked by Steel-Types, we should still have the ability to do anything at all while they're out. Almost anything in OU has outs to things that counter their common sets, ranging from a coverage option, team support or a pivoting move (for instance, Togekiss walls any Garchomp without Stone Edge/Iron Head, but it won't be able to stop Garchomp from setting up Stealth Rock; another example is that Talonflame can dodge Heatran by using U-Turn as it switches in). Steel is the third most common type in OU (behind a tie of Flying & Psychic), so if we have nothing we can do when one switches in, our CAP will be dead weight as long as one is still on the opponent's side.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Which Pokemon that are relevant in OU does our typing appear to naturally threaten, but might not be able to beat in practice, AND in each case, do we want to be able to beat that Pokemon?

Hmmm. Going by typing alone, we've got...

Mega Charizard X
Azumarill
Mega Altaria
Talonflame (if it uses WoW on the switch, CAP 21 loses if it's a physical attacker)
Mega Gardevoir
Kyurem-B
Mega Aerodactyl
Celebi (minor concern, as EP and Psychic sets are not that common)
Mega Pinsir
Serperior
Volcarona
Dragonite
Mega Beedrill
Tangrowth

While we can check all of these threats, they check us back depending on what our stats are and what moves they use. Perhaps the only thing that Rock/Poison itself truly counters is Clefable. Jeepers.

I agree with Deck's proposition that it's very important to avoid Ground coverage, as some of the Pokemon that carry it, such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Altaria, Kyurem-B, and (to a lesser extent) Dragonite, are pretty threatening to the balance teams that CAP 21 will probably find itself on.

Of the Pokemon that naturally threaten us via typing, either defensively or offensively, which are the most important for use to have as threats to CAP21, and which, if any, would we really not want to be a threat?

First let's see what threatens us by typing alone. (/me braces himself)

Manaphy
Alakazam and Mega Alakazam
Bisharp
Excadrill
Garchomp
Heatran
Hippowdon
Hoopa-U
Keldeo
Landorus-T
Latios
Mega Metagross
Scizor and Mega Scizor
Gliscor
Gyarados and Mega Gyarados
Latias
Slowbro and Mega Slowbro
Jirachi
Klefki
Magnezone
Mega Medicham
Politoed
Rotom-W
Starmie
Feraligatr
Kabutops
Kingdra
Mamoswine
Mega Swampert
Gothitelle
Reuniclus
Slowking

Wow. I'm sure I missed a few too. The two biggest threats to balanced teams on this list would probably be Manaphy and Hoopa-U. As ginganinja said, with Manaphy being the bigger threat (and, in general, the best balance breaker in the metagame), it's something that we really, really don't want to lose to. Unfortunately, depending on how we go about dealing with Manaphy, we'll probably find ourselves with a gaping weakness to the Pokemon that run Ground-type coverage that I mentioned above, and vice versa if we go about stopping those EQ and EP users. It really is a case of "pick your poison."

May elaborate later on what we want to threaten us.

Yeah. Manaphy is possibly the biggest issue. I don't think there is actually any way we can counter it though. With both Scald and Psychic super effective, and a neutral Energy Ball, CAP 21 can't counter that with a single ability. Maybe if this thing had bulk to rival Chansey and Blissey, but otherwise, Manaphy is uncounterable. The teammates of CAP 21 will have to cover for it. I don't really feel Hoopa-U is nearly has big of a threat as much as some ground types, like Hippowdon and Excdrill. Almost regardless of how hard the CAP can hit, it most likely cannot OHKO a Hippowdon, and unless this thing is going to have massive defenses like a physical Chansey, CAP 21 is going to take massive damage in return.

 

[Project_Mars]

Checking most Steel-types and most Water-types should be something we probably should strive towards. At the very least Bisharp and Heatran for steel-types since both have STABs that CAP could take fairly well and exploitable 4x weaknesses. As for checking Water-types, they are a fairly natural switch in for Fire-Types, which we want to threaten. By setting up CAP with the tools to deal with water-types we can help differentiate it from Heatran.