I don’t have time at the moment to post a set, but I wanted to get something out there; didn’t we want CAP to have a viable non-trapping set as well to keep opponents guessing? We should make some sets that don’t focus on trapping.
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion
- Thread starter Quanyails
- Start date
- Status
I concur. How’s about this?
Moveset Submission
Name: Chip Annoyance
Move 1: Phantom Force
Move 2: Drain Punch
Move 3: Dragon Tail
Move 4: Substitute/Psychic Fangs/Toxic/Toxic Spikes
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
- This set aims to partner with hazard setters such as Spikes Ferrothorn or Toxic Spikes Toxapex, with whom CAP has excellent defensive synergy and its Ghost typing allows for Rapid Spin immunity.
- Phantom Force serves to be a handy Ghost STAB option that makes CAP invulnerable for a turn, while also allowing it to stall for Toxic Spikes poison, and permit additional Leftovers recovery.
- Drain Punch provides perfect coverage with Ghost STAB and allows CAP to hit Normal mons and Dark mons for good damage, while also providing additional recovery.
- Dragon Tail provides secondary STAB, racks up chip damage with hazards and forces out set up sweepers/hazard removers who might try to take advantage of CAP’s passiveness.
- Last slot is mainly filler. Substitute allows CAP to take advantage of switches, bypass Sucker Punch and Pursuit and scout. Psychic Fangs nails Poison Switch ins trying to absorb its mates Toxic Spikes, and could be paired with Tapu Lele to hit harder. Toxic and Toxic Spikes are pretty explainitory as they let CAP set up passive damage in its own right.
I don't think I'll post any set by myself, but I want to give my opinion on some of the proposed ones
I don't like this set at all, it seems to be designed more with the idea of messing with our checks than anything else. With this level of bulk, we're really hard to revenge kill, such as Tapu Lele, Latios, and even Tapu Fini:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 168 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Giratina-Origin: 258-306 (73.5 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 168 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Giratina-Origin: 188-224 (53.5 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 168 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Giratina-Origin: 120-144 (34.1 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
I think Drain Punch in particular is the most problematic move here, as it gives CAP23 semi-reliable recovery, making you even harder to wear down and while providing great coverage that completely eliminates Dark Types like Colossoil and Tyranitar as checks, and I see no real benefit from this, sure you avoid being Pursuit-trapped, but by doing so, you eliminate one of the best ways to get rid of CAP23, seriously reducing counterplay against it, so I believe It'd be better to avoid any Fighting type coverage. Anchor Shot might not be as bad, but it hits Clefable, one of our checks, harder than anything else, and it's only relevant advantage when compared to SS is being able to trap Chansey, something that Infestation already accomplishes.
CAP23 high attack and good speed tier makes both Band and Scarf sets very viable options, especially given that we need decent coverage to deal with our targets. However I think giving CAP23 access to U-Turn might be too much, as it would turn it into a great offensive pivot, and seriously risks overshadowing the trapping sets. The move I chose to replace it, Stone Edge, allows us to revenge kill a good number of mons, like Char-Y, Volkraken, Volcarona and Zapdos, making these sets very useful to teams that lack a good response against these threats.
While I like the idea of using SubSplit to deal with Tomo while keeping yourself healthy, I don't understand why Pain Split is necessary, as we already have the bulk to take multiple Air Slashes, and Tomohawk is quickly worn down by Spirit Shackle+Toxic, so Pain Split seems like overkill to me, especially as it allows us to recover health even against some of our counters, like Ferrothorn, Celesteela and Skarmory.
I don't like this set at all, it seems to be designed more with the idea of messing with our checks than anything else. With this level of bulk, we're really hard to revenge kill, such as Tapu Lele, Latios, and even Tapu Fini:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 168 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Giratina-Origin: 258-306 (73.5 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 168 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Giratina-Origin: 188-224 (53.5 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 168 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Giratina-Origin: 120-144 (34.1 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
I think Drain Punch in particular is the most problematic move here, as it gives CAP23 semi-reliable recovery, making you even harder to wear down and while providing great coverage that completely eliminates Dark Types like Colossoil and Tyranitar as checks, and I see no real benefit from this, sure you avoid being Pursuit-trapped, but by doing so, you eliminate one of the best ways to get rid of CAP23, seriously reducing counterplay against it, so I believe It'd be better to avoid any Fighting type coverage. Anchor Shot might not be as bad, but it hits Clefable, one of our checks, harder than anything else, and it's only relevant advantage when compared to SS is being able to trap Chansey, something that Infestation already accomplishes.
CAP23 high attack and good speed tier makes both Band and Scarf sets very viable options, especially given that we need decent coverage to deal with our targets. However I think giving CAP23 access to U-Turn might be too much, as it would turn it into a great offensive pivot, and seriously risks overshadowing the trapping sets. The move I chose to replace it, Stone Edge, allows us to revenge kill a good number of mons, like Char-Y, Volkraken, Volcarona and Zapdos, making these sets very useful to teams that lack a good response against these threats.
While I like the idea of using SubSplit to deal with Tomo while keeping yourself healthy, I don't understand why Pain Split is necessary, as we already have the bulk to take multiple Air Slashes, and Tomohawk is quickly worn down by Spirit Shackle+Toxic, so Pain Split seems like overkill to me, especially as it allows us to recover health even against some of our counters, like Ferrothorn, Celesteela and Skarmory.
Name: The beargon trap
Move 1: Outrage/Dragon Hammer/Dragon Claw
Move 2: Anchor Shot/Infestation/Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Icicle Crash
Move 4: Drain Punch
Ability: Comatose (Obviously)
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 Speed/ 252 Attack/ 4 SpD
Nature: Jolly
Another set
Name: Better toxic staller than Umbreon but now with trapping capabilities.
Move 1: Infestation
Move 2: Toxic
Move 3: Moonlight
Move 4: Outrage
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpD/ 252 Speed/ 4 Attack
Nature: Careful
Move 1: Outrage/Dragon Hammer/Dragon Claw
Move 2: Anchor Shot/Infestation/Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Icicle Crash
Move 4: Drain Punch
Ability: Comatose (Obviously)
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 Speed/ 252 Attack/ 4 SpD
Nature: Jolly
Another set
Name: Better toxic staller than Umbreon but now with trapping capabilities.
Move 1: Infestation
Move 2: Toxic
Move 3: Moonlight
Move 4: Outrage
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpD/ 252 Speed/ 4 Attack
Nature: Careful
Last edited:
Moveset Submission
Name: Scarf + Lele Support
Move 1: Spirit Shackles
Move 2: Outrage/Dragon Claw
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Memento/Healing Wish/Parting Shot
Ability: Comatose
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Name: Scarf + Lele Support
Move 1: Spirit Shackles
Move 2: Outrage/Dragon Claw
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Memento/Healing Wish/Parting Shot
Ability: Comatose
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Lele not only protects CAP from priority, but buffs Psychic Fangs to get several relevant 2HKOs, particularly Mollux, Tomohawk, and Toxapex, with a relevant OHKO on Plasmanta
- 252+ Atk CAP Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux in Psychic Terrain: 362-428 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk CAP Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk in Psychic Terrain: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk CAP Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Abomasnow Psychic Fangs vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta in Psychic Terrain: 270-318 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Spirit Shackles is just the most powerful physical Ghost move, and it punishes a bad predict.
- Memento and Parting Shot can punish offensive mons attempting to switch in expecting a wallbreaker set and works well with other mons that like Psychic Terrain support, whereas Healing Wish can be used to trade CAP for a heal on a more valueable mon.
Moveset Submission
Name: Heal Block
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Icicle Crash / Outrage
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Psychium Z / Figy Berry / Dragonium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 152 SpD
Nature: Adamant
Name: Heal Block
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Icicle Crash / Outrage
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Psychium Z / Figy Berry / Dragonium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 152 SpD
Nature: Adamant
- Heal Block's main purpose is to prevent Tomohawk and Toxapex from recovering, allowing us to more easily beat them. It also prevents Zapdos from Roosting, Arghonaut and Mollux from recovering (Mollux gets Recover?) and MVenu from using Synthesis. While Heal Block isn't as powerful as Taunt, it still keeps our counters and checks (namely Skarmory and Ferrothorn) more intact than Taunt would.
- Spirit Shackle is our main STAB move, trapping our foes as well. Also, it actually does a good amount to Tomohawk, which makes room for Psychium Z.
- Psychic Fangs is our main tool against stall. It lets us beat Tomohawk, Toxapex, MVenu, Mollux and Arghonaut.
- If you're looking for Dragon STAB, go for Dragon Claw. It's more reliable than Outrage. Locking into Outrage can lead to disaster. However, Outrage is still a viable option for the slightly more power and a more powerful Z move if you run Dragonium Z. Icicle Crash beats Zapdos and Landorus-Therian.
- Leftovers makes sure that we have enough time to set up our trapping and Heal Block before we die to Air Slash. Psychium Z is another option if you have room for a Z move, as Shattered Psyche kills Tomohawk after Spirit Shackle. Finally, Figy Berry is an alternative to Leftovers.
- EVs are to ensure we live enough Air Slashes from Tomohawk while being able to 3HKO with Psychic Fangs.
- Adamant Nature also supports the 3HKO on Tomohawk with Psychic Fangs, as well as giving more power overall.
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 73-87 (19.6 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 73-87 (19.6 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 146-172 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 272-320 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 102-121 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 21-25 (5.6 - 6.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 104-124 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 73-87 (24 - 28.6%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 38-45 (10.2 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 46-54 (12.3 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 146-172 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 102-121 (28 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Mollux Lava Plume vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 43-51 (11.5 - 13.7%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Mollux Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 49-58 (13.2 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
220+ Atk Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 82-97 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO (The most Argho can do to us. Also dont kill me if this sets old cause this is whats on the calc)
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 138-163 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- 50.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 196-232 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 152-180 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 108-127 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- 91.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 84-100 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- 37.8% chance to 4HKO
-1 108+ Atk Giratina Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 200-236 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 196-232 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (We outspeed, so we're fine)
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 73-87 (19.6 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 146-172 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 272-320 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 102-121 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 21-25 (5.6 - 6.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 104-124 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 73-87 (24 - 28.6%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 38-45 (10.2 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 46-54 (12.3 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 146-172 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 102-121 (28 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Mollux Lava Plume vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 43-51 (11.5 - 13.7%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Mollux Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 49-58 (13.2 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
220+ Atk Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 82-97 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO (The most Argho can do to us. Also dont kill me if this sets old cause this is whats on the calc)
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 138-163 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- 50.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 196-232 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 152-180 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 108-127 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- 91.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Giratina: 84-100 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- 37.8% chance to 4HKO
-1 108+ Atk Giratina Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 200-236 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 196-232 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (We outspeed, so we're fine)
Last edited:
- Dragon Hammer is better since it has more power
- I'm against Memento and Parting Shot because they force out the opposing pokemon, allowing a teammate to easily setup. Healing Wish should be ok, since it only revive a teammate on low health
i know people didn't want a defensive set when they were going for those stats, but it's inevitable because it will get those moves no matter what
(edit thx snake, i really should ev for the magearna.)
Moveset Submission
Name: Phantom force
Move 1: Spirit Shackle/ Anchor Shot/Infestation
Move 2: Substitute/Protect
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Phantom Force
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SPD/ 52 SPE
Nature: Careful
This is well, a stallbreaker set for it. It definitely helps kill Tomo easily without the need for z moves and can handle other threats. The only downside is having a substitute up will discourage a volt switch or a u turn (but this cap will get substitute due to most mons having it) Unforutunately this set will have trouble with physical things we'd like to be checking like Lando, but there is an alternative a set like of 252 hp/ 4 atk/ 252 Defense can be ran just to keep lando in 3hko range so you can toxic it then phantom force/protect it to death.
252 spd can be ran as it stops specs keldeo from breaking cap23's sub.
Infestation as suggested by snake racks up more damage yet only 4 turns might prove undesirable
(edit thx snake, i really should ev for the magearna.)
Moveset Submission
Name: Phantom force
Move 1: Spirit Shackle/ Anchor Shot/Infestation
Move 2: Substitute/Protect
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Phantom Force
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SPD/ 52 SPE
Nature: Careful
This is well, a stallbreaker set for it. It definitely helps kill Tomo easily without the need for z moves and can handle other threats. The only downside is having a substitute up will discourage a volt switch or a u turn (but this cap will get substitute due to most mons having it) Unforutunately this set will have trouble with physical things we'd like to be checking like Lando, but there is an alternative a set like of 252 hp/ 4 atk/ 252 Defense can be ran just to keep lando in 3hko range so you can toxic it then phantom force/protect it to death.
252 spd can be ran as it stops specs keldeo from breaking cap23's sub.
Infestation as suggested by snake racks up more damage yet only 4 turns might prove undesirable
- Spirit Shackle is for that stab trapping move. Anchor shot would be prefferable to trap chansey, none of our counters are hit super effectively by anchor shot.
- Leftovers is so this cap can rack up leftover health when using Phantom Force and substitute.
- Substitute will keep cap23 hiding behind its good stuff.
- Phantom force does damage, goes through substitutes and most importantly can stall for lefties recovery and toxic residue.
- Comatose is the preffered, and only ability. If NCA is usable, feel free to remove phantom force for rest
- These evs, while compromising Cap23's 133 atk allows it to tank more moves from mons
- This set will have trouble with tangrowth's knock off.
- Toxapex can't do much to you but it will take a really long time to kill it unfortunately
- CALCS HERE
(good things)
[*]0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Giratina: 64-76 (17.2 - 20.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
[*]0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Giratina: 74-88 (19.9 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
[*]252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Giratina: 64-76 (17.2 - 20.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Giratina: 93-111 (25 - 29.9%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
[*]
(bad things)
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 223-264 (59.9 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 196-232 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina in Grassy Terrain: 321-378 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (we might be able to kill this one if we have anchor shot)4 Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 157-186 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 4 Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 81-96 (25.3 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 121-144 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Last edited:
I think something to be careful of with this project is signature move overkill. While we aren't hesitant to use a (not-legendary) signature move if it's important to have one, I think it's ludicrous for us to throw around moves learned by one Pokemon (like Dragon Hammer) simply on the basis that they're better than the other options (Dragon Claw and Dragon Rush). In fact, I take exception to the idea that we should then consider giving this both Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot-- there simply is no justification for doing so. Yes, the concept is about trapping moves, but Naviathan didn't get every boosting move because of its boosting move concept, and rightly so. Signature moves may not be off-limits, but it is terrible for optics to just throw them around like candy.
You've given no calcs to support this claim. I've seen no evidence from anybody pushing for Dragon Hammer that it gets any relevant OHKO or 2HKO that Claw can't get. If you have an example as to why CAP needs Dragon Hammer, that would be appreciated. Otherwise, I see no reason to give it an exclusive move that's not at all related to the concept.
EDIT: Greninja'd
Last edited:
Ok, thanks for the explanations
Dragon Tail is not good for CAP23 for this reason:
Name: Comaphaze
Move 1: Sleep Talk
Move 2: Dragon Tail
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: Comatose
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
Sleep Talk is spammable with Comatose and allows CAP23 to bypass Dragon Tail's -6 priority, which means for 16 turns straight (barring Fairy-type switch-ins), CAP23 would be able to shuffle the entire opposing team, spreading any or all of Spikes, Rocks, and Toxic Spikes damage while racking up decent damage with its own Dragon Tail. Many OM's have shown that this combination is extremely annoying and uncompetitive to play against/ While we could disallow Sleep Talk, there are two reasons why phazing should not be desired utility on CAP23. First, the concept revolves around trapping, and the antithesis of trapping is forcing Pokemon out, and second, trapping is itself a way to use slow momentum, and phazing distracts us from that.
To build more on my second point, I knew that U-turn would end up in this thread. It does incentivize the use of non-trapping sets, yes. However, it also might overshadow trapping moves in general, as U-turn generates better momentum than trapping. Additionally, trapping + U-turn sounds very annoying to deal with. I'm not sure if the benefits of this move outweighs the costs of including it on the movepool.
---
Phantom Force is a very interesting way to rack up chip damage while packing a good punch, and it works pretty well with almost any trapping move, so I think adding on Infestation for extra chip damage is viable as well (though something like Heal Block would probably be better in the last slot with Infestation being only 4 turns, idk). Spirit Shackle even works pretty well with it because you can still snipe off Tapu Lele (Choice Scarf on the switch-in, of course) without forcing yourself into a 2-turn attack. Also, updated your EV spread. With 56 EVs in Speed, you can outspeed Shift Gear Magearna before it boosts to snipe it off, and it doesn't take away too much bulk. 248 HP EVs for hazard damage, and 372 isn't a Leftovers number. Overall, I like this set because it doesn't just sit there and stall away. It actually uses its good attack stat and is nice alongside all of the sets with coverage everywhere.
Discussion is looking great so far! Let's keep it up with comments and new sets.
Dragon Hammer isn't really worth adding since there's nothing to me that says Dragon Hammer is more powerful in any meaningful way than Dragon Claw. Also, I REALLY don't like Drain Punch. It gives us recovery that's too reliable imo and also messes with both our Dark-type and Steel-type checks.
Good stuff so far guys! :)
Moveset Submission
Name: Fairy Lock
Move 1: Fairy Lock
Move 2: Spirit Shackle / Phantom Force
Move 3: Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Move 4: Stone Edge / Psychic Fangs
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Sitrus Berry / Aguav Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Name: Fairy Lock
Move 1: Fairy Lock
Move 2: Spirit Shackle / Phantom Force
Move 3: Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Move 4: Stone Edge / Psychic Fangs
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Sitrus Berry / Aguav Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Basic goal of the set is to weaken opponents until CAP becomes weak enough that it can use Fairy Lock to trap the opponent that finishes it off, guaranteeing a revenge kill
- Fairy Lock helps to keep the pressure on as mons come in to try and KO CAP, threatening an immediate revenge kill (barring Ghost types) once CAP goes down
- Fairy Lock can actually be used decently well due to CAP's above average speed, allowing it to threaten a Fairy Lock on slower mons trying to KO it
- This can lead to mind games of lock vs. no lock, and with CAPs powerful Atk stat, a misplay could be very damaging
- Spirit Shackle would be used to provide more general trapping support, whereas Phantom Force could be employed for a more damage based approach
- Dragon Claw and Dragon Rush help to balance out the STAB options
- I've purposely forgone Outrage because I think the Confusion risk doesn't mesh well with the Fairy Lock strategy
- Stone Edge and Psychic Fangs serve as a "pick what you want to beat" sort of setup, effective against many Pokémon on the trap and destroy list
- Leftovers, Sitrus, and Aguav serve to provide just a bit more longevity for CAP to get off more damage prior to going down
- The EVs help give the speed as high as it can do give Fairy Lock the best chance of going first
- Attack EVs serve to increase damage output
You can actually do some pretty nifty sounding things with this move and a couple of unconventional items.
Eject Button:
Fairy Lock the opponent that you outspeed, they attack
Red card activates
You swap to a check/counter
They're stuck in with the counter for a turn
Fairy Lock before a faster opponent (only if you're low enough health though), they KO
You bring in a check/counter on the free switch
They're stuck in with the counter for a turn
Fairy Lock is an incredibly intriguing move, and this is realistically the only time we'll ever get an opportunity to explore a move like this. Additionally, the skill required to use these items would be pretty high, so while the situations I explained above sound broken, you'd need to use the set carefully, as Red Card might not activate on the right turn, you might use Fairy Lock too early,
EDIT: Custap Berry isn't released yet apparently.
Last edited:
Not gonna try to be too nitpicky but a ghostium z set with phantom force can force enemies into a pickle where you can fairy lock for htat nice revenge kill. Especially good if you decide to bring in magearna or some moxie man. Focus sash is kinda niche in this set but should allow you to either use spirit shackle to trap the mon before it leaves or use an emergency fairy lock.
(edit rip snake sniped me) also custap berry is banned rn
May I go out on a limb and say I don’t think we should allow Knock Off?
CAP + Magnezone seems like a diabolical combination, seeing as how CAP can’t touch Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Mega Scizor and Skarmory. If any of these guys switch in to SS, they play eleminates a double switch, and can just proceed to switch to Mag to trap them again,
I feel like Shed Shell Skarmory ought to be a valid counterplay to this combination. Giving CAP Knock Off, makes Skarmory switching in risky.
Knock Off also borks Collosoil by removing Flame Orb and takes away Tapu Fini, Celesteela and Ferrothorn’s Leftovers.
Knock Off interfers with our checks/counters too much.
———
I’d also like to concur that I dislike U-Turn/Volt Switch on our mon, for the same reasons others have stated and is completely anti concept. Also, I think we should deincentivize Choice item sets, which pivoting does in spades.
———
Let’s try another unorthodox non-trapping set, inspired by the Lati wins.
Moveset Submission
Name: Dual Screens
Move 1: Shadow Claw
Move 2: Dragon Claw/Earthquake
Move 3: Light Screen
Move 4: Reflect
Ability: Comatose
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
CAP + Magnezone seems like a diabolical combination, seeing as how CAP can’t touch Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Mega Scizor and Skarmory. If any of these guys switch in to SS, they play eleminates a double switch, and can just proceed to switch to Mag to trap them again,
I feel like Shed Shell Skarmory ought to be a valid counterplay to this combination. Giving CAP Knock Off, makes Skarmory switching in risky.
Knock Off also borks Collosoil by removing Flame Orb and takes away Tapu Fini, Celesteela and Ferrothorn’s Leftovers.
Knock Off interfers with our checks/counters too much.
———
I’d also like to concur that I dislike U-Turn/Volt Switch on our mon, for the same reasons others have stated and is completely anti concept. Also, I think we should deincentivize Choice item sets, which pivoting does in spades.
———
Let’s try another unorthodox non-trapping set, inspired by the Lati wins.
Moveset Submission
Name: Dual Screens
Move 1: Shadow Claw
Move 2: Dragon Claw/Earthquake
Move 3: Light Screen
Move 4: Reflect
Ability: Comatose
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
- This set uses CAP’s good typing and special bulk to set dual screens.
- Unlike dual screens Tapu Koko and Lati@s and Ninetales-A, CAP offers different resistances and is immune to status, giving it different opportunities to set up screens.
- CAP is immune to Brick Break, while extremely niche, can be run to take down its screens.
- Established counters Defog Skarmory and Tapu Fini can remove CAP’s screens.
- CAP’s typing draws Steel, Dark and Fairy types, allowing set up sweepers like Mega Charizard X, Volcorona, Cawmadore, Azurmarril, Keldeo, Navithan, Mega Scizor, and Mega Tyranitar to set up.
- Shadow Claw offers broad reliable STAB damage.
- The last move is filler coverage. Dragon Claw offers secondary STAB, while Earthquake let’s it hit Tyranitar, Bisharp and Magenera harder.
Last edited:
The thing with your set is that you seem to have not used Spirit Shackle for the sole purpose of not making it a trapping set, when I really don't see how Shadow Claw has any advantages besides the rare times the increased crit ratio matters and the probably even rarer times you want to die to Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin. Is there any reason you'd rather use Shadow Claw?
Realistically, one of the only ways we're going to accomplish non-trapping sets (a set that has no trapping move), assuming we have access to Spirit Shackle, is to give CAP23 a "better" Ghost-type STAB move. This means either Shadow Bone or Shadow Sneak (Phantom Force has higher BP but, as it is a two turn move, you'd want to use it on a trapping set anyway, and Shadow Strike isn't a real move), but I'm not sure if either of these are good ideas. Shadow Bone's 20% chance to defense drop might not be good for our counters list, and Shadow Sneak's priority might screw with our checks list too much. Additionally, you could realistically run double STAB with Spirit Shackle and Shadow Sneak if you need the more powerful STAB move AND the priority. Other than these options, I'm not sure how realistically we can make non-trapping sets just because Spirit Shackle is so powerful. We decided that during concept assessment that we didn't want to have exclusively trapping sets, but our typing makes this difficult.
Moveset Submission
Name: Shadow Bone / Non-trapping
Move 1: Shadow Bone
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Toxic / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
I'll speak more on Shadow Sneak when I have time, but I wanted to talk about this first because in terms of wanting to sub out Spirit Shackle for a different move, Shadow Bone is probably THE absolute best move that you'd consider to replace it with. There's also the question of wanting to just use Shadow Bone over Spirit Shackle entirely. I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about this.
Now, if we want to focus on sets where trapping isn't the focus, pretty much any AOA set is going to do that for you. The Laser Focus set, the Phantom Force set, Fairy Lock set, SubSplit set, etc. actually use the trapping mechanic to its fullest potential.
These are just my thoughts for now. What does everyone think about this? Do we want to pursue non-trapping sets at this point?
Moveset Submission
Name: Shadow Bone / Non-trapping
Move 1: Shadow Bone
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Toxic / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
- Shadow Bone hits harder than Spirit Shackle, which is your incentive to not use a trapping set
- Dragon-type STAB for extra neutral coverage
- Psychic Fangs pressures our target list pretty well
- Toxic helps wear down bulkier threats while Stone Edge hits Zapdos harder
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 144-172 (36.1 - 43.2%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 216-255 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 125-148 (35.5 - 42%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 187-220 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor: 133-157 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor: 200-238 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 105-125 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 157-187 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 216-255 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 125-148 (35.5 - 42%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 187-220 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor: 133-157 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor: 200-238 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 105-125 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. -1 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 157-187 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
Pushes things into SR range:
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 208-247 (60.8 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 220-261 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pushes things into OHKO range:
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 231-274 (82.2 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 247-292 (87.9 - 103.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Other:
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-169 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 208-247 (60.8 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 220-261 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pushes things into OHKO range:
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 231-274 (82.2 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 247-292 (87.9 - 103.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Other:
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-169 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'll speak more on Shadow Sneak when I have time, but I wanted to talk about this first because in terms of wanting to sub out Spirit Shackle for a different move, Shadow Bone is probably THE absolute best move that you'd consider to replace it with. There's also the question of wanting to just use Shadow Bone over Spirit Shackle entirely. I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about this.
Now, if we want to focus on sets where trapping isn't the focus, pretty much any AOA set is going to do that for you. The Laser Focus set, the Phantom Force set, Fairy Lock set, SubSplit set, etc. actually use the trapping mechanic to its fullest potential.
These are just my thoughts for now. What does everyone think about this? Do we want to pursue non-trapping sets at this point?
Last edited:
Ok, gonna try some unconventional sets.
Name: Hazardous Trapper
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Outrage
Move 3: Spirit Shackle
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Dragonium Z / Psychium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Name: No Heals No Deals
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs / Toxic
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
I'd like opinions on these two sets, and how they can be improved.
Name: Hazardous Trapper
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Outrage
Move 3: Spirit Shackle
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Dragonium Z / Psychium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- The purpose of this set is to lure out and weaken bulky Poison types and hazard removers and successfully lay Toxic Spikes, which gained support throughtout the thread.
- Toxic Spikes are great on this mon, as it allows it to wear down threats on the field, giving CAP23 and its teammates an easier time to bust through bulky walls.
- Outrage is CAP23's most powerful STAB option, and ensures it can keep up offensive pressure.
- Spirit Shackle is the secondary STAB option, and allows CAP23 to trap and apply pressure to bulky mons.
- The choice between Psychic Fangs and Stone Edge is a tough onw. Psychic Fangs is usually the superior option to break the Poison types that want to absorb Toxic Spikes. But if the team itself is well ensured against Poison types, Stone Edge is a viable option to bust up defoggers like Zapdos.
- Lofe Orb gives a general boost in power, Psychium Z should be chosen if using Psychic Fangs and if opting for Stone Edge, Dragonium Z is a viable option.
- Maximum EV investment Attack and Speed allow CAP23 to maintain its great speed tier and hit as hard as possible.
Name: No Heals No Deals
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs / Toxic
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- The purpose of this set is to stallbreak walls by blocking their ability to heal off damage dealt.
- With Taunt and Encore being deemed too powerful, Heal Block I believe is an alternative that is quite acceptable. It stops Toxapex from healing with Black Sludge and Recover, and Mega Venusaur with Leech Seed.
- Spirit Shackle is a great STAB option that also traps the foe, allowing CaP 23 to take full advantage of Heal Block.
- Outrage can be chosen for immediate strong power, but if the confusion effects are deemed too annoying, Dragon Claw is an acceptable alternative. Keep in mind that its power output is severly affected.
- Brave Bird and Psychic Fangs can be used based on which mons you want to pressure more. Toxic is a great third option that works with Heal Block to wear down most walls.
- Z-Crystals are preferred so CAP23 can have a powerful nuke to bust past worn down walls, but Leftovers can also be used for longevity.
- EVs are make CAP 23 hit as hard and as fast as possible.
I'd like opinions on these two sets, and how they can be improved.
I like the Toxic Spikes set, as its exactly like the one I would’ve posted had I not been sniped, except I had also listed Earthquake slashed with Psychic Fangs. EQ (with or without Groundium) is a nice option as it hits Toxapex harder, as well as hitting Mollux, Muk-A, Crucibelle, Heatran, Magenera, in exchange for being neutral to Mega Venusaur and Amoongus.
As for the Heal Block set, I dislike this idea as it prevents Skarmory and Mega Scizor from Roosting, letting CAP chip them to death, as well as preventing Leech Seed from Celesteela and Ferrothorn. Sorry, but I think this shouldn’t be allowed.
So this is my "Defense of Drain Punch Post."
To start with, I want to point out a broad number of Pokemon in both OU and CAP are characterized by the fact they have few true counters and many set-specific checks. One of the best examples of this is another Ghost-type in CAP, Kitsunoh, whose WispyKit set gives it the ability to cripple Dark-type switchins and set up a Sub to evade the several Pokemon we have in CAP that don't care about Burn status. Many offensive Pokemon in fact require prediction to beat because they have specific coverage for their checks, and Pokemon that do not have this trait and have more reliable counters always end up in UU or worse.
So to me the question is not whether our largely offensive CAP should have coverage which pressures its checks, it's what that coverage should be. Drain Punch is just versatile enough and just weak enough that it fulfills a role as useful coverage that expands set options without being an overwhelming KO machine.
Some example calculations (I'm using various items and Choice Band here as it demonstrates general range contrasted to maximum damage output).
VS Flame Orb Soil:
252 Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 218-258 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Choice Band Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 326-384 (80 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 113-133 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Life Orb Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 283-335 (69.5 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Decidueye Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 411-484 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band can't OHKO Soil, Life Orb can do a followup KO with Spirit Shackle followed by Drain Punch, Z-Outrage directly OHKOs independent of Drain Punch.
Return damage:
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 660-776 (213.5 - 251.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 474-560 (153.3 - 181.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 272-324 (88 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Choice Scarf Soil:
252 Atk Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 402-474 (130 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Colossoil Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 168-198 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery [OHKOs if CAP flees]
CB Drain Punch cannot OHKO Soil unless CAP runs Adamant. Drain Punch does provide CAP the HP it needs to survive Pursuit most of the time, but all of Soil's other Dark moves are OHKOs. Drain Punch doesn't let CAP outright beat Soil even in Maxed damage scenarios.
Basically, Colossoil is still a massive threat to CAP. CAP already has options outside Drain Punch that pressure it offensively, what Drain Punch does is give sets other than Dragonium-Z a fighting chance not to be totally mauled by it.
VS Bisharp:
252 Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 336-396 (123.9 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 386-456 (124.9 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 540-636 (174.7 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
VS Weavile:
252 Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 476-560 (169.3 - 199.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 396-468 (128.1 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 348-410 (112.6 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard (Pursuit) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 246-290 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Drain Punch definitely gives the upper hand on Bisharp because it needs to land a Sucker Punch to KO CAP, and Disable is a perfect counter-move to Sucker Punch, however CAP is still playing with fire trying to predict Bisharp. Assault Vest CAP would outright lose because it doesn't have Sub or Disable to play around Sucker Punch. Weavile can't switch in on Drain Punch, but even unboosted (or if Weavile is using Focus Sash), both its main STABs OHKO CAP, and if it runs the CB set it easily revenge kills CAP after rocks.
Now, onto Steel-type checks. Ferrothorn isn't one. It just isn't unless we absolutely mollycoddle it. SubDisable beats it, SubSpite beats it, SubSplit beats it, SubWhirlpool / Sand Tomb beats it (Infestation triggers Iron Barbs). SubWisp beats it. Basically, any set that can successfully either lower its attack, lock out Gyro Ball, or prevent it from seeding while it inflicts trapping damage will overwhelm it because Spirit Shackle does not trigger Iron Barbs or Rocky Helmet and Ferrothorn can not remain in a passive battle against CAP and win. It might be able to set up 3 layers of Spikes in exchange, but that can be undone by a multitude of Pokemon in CAP, not least of which are Tomohawk and Kitsunoh.
Now, there is a Ferro set that can beat CAP. It's the one that runs both Gyro Ball and Knock Off. Per usage stats, Ferro's four most popular moves are Stealth Rock (95%), Power Whip (87%), Gyro Ball (65%), and Knock Off (53%), followed by Leech Seed (39%) and Thunder Wave (35%). Thunder Wave variants have a wasted slot against CAP, Knock Off is stronger than Gyro Ball exactly once if CAP has something other than a Z-Crystal, and without Leech Seed Ferro is a lot easier to wear down considering Spirit Shackle does 25-30%. However most Ferro sets are clearly using Knock Off as a Tech and are running SR/STAB/Support/Support, and Knock Off may or may not be in one of those support slots.
Steel-types in CAP in order of September 1760 popularity:
3 Ferrothorn: As explained above, many sets beat Ferro without Drain Punch
9 Cawmodore: Hit neutrally.
18 Kitsunoh: Spirit Shackle defeats this, but Drain Punch lets it come if for free.
23 Celesteela: Hit neutrally.
33 Magearna: Hit neutrally.
35 Scizor-Mega: Hit neutrally.
46 Kartana: Cannot OHKO with Choice Band Drain Punch, provides a bare 2HKO itemless. Kartana Smart Strike can 2HKO through the recovery.
58 Heatran: We resist its Fire STAB and Z-Move
64 Magnezone: We resist its Electric STAB and Flash Cannon does equal damage to SE Hidden Power.
65 Mawile-Mega: Hit neutrally.
71 Skarmory: Hit neutrally.
72 Jirachi: Spirit Shackle defeats this.
75 Excadrill: Spirit Shackle actually 2HKOs without an item, Drain Punch is superfluous.
76 Klefki: This actually threatens us with Foul Play >_>
95 Metagross: Wishes it were a Mega that could revenge us, cause Drain Punch hits neutrally.
In summary, Drain Punch gives CAP the standard counterplay and pressure almost every offensive Pokemon in OU and CAP have to pressure their offensive checks, but has minimal or no impact on viable defensive answers to CAP. Additionally, Drain Punch lures in other offensive checks like Kitsunoh, the Latis, and Scarf Tapu Lele.
To start with, I want to point out a broad number of Pokemon in both OU and CAP are characterized by the fact they have few true counters and many set-specific checks. One of the best examples of this is another Ghost-type in CAP, Kitsunoh, whose WispyKit set gives it the ability to cripple Dark-type switchins and set up a Sub to evade the several Pokemon we have in CAP that don't care about Burn status. Many offensive Pokemon in fact require prediction to beat because they have specific coverage for their checks, and Pokemon that do not have this trait and have more reliable counters always end up in UU or worse.
So to me the question is not whether our largely offensive CAP should have coverage which pressures its checks, it's what that coverage should be. Drain Punch is just versatile enough and just weak enough that it fulfills a role as useful coverage that expands set options without being an overwhelming KO machine.
Some example calculations (I'm using various items and Choice Band here as it demonstrates general range contrasted to maximum damage output).
VS Flame Orb Soil:
252 Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 218-258 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Choice Band Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 326-384 (80 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 113-133 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Life Orb Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 283-335 (69.5 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Decidueye Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 411-484 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band can't OHKO Soil, Life Orb can do a followup KO with Spirit Shackle followed by Drain Punch, Z-Outrage directly OHKOs independent of Drain Punch.
Return damage:
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 660-776 (213.5 - 251.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 474-560 (153.3 - 181.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 272-324 (88 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Choice Scarf Soil:
252 Atk Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 402-474 (130 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Colossoil Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 168-198 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery [OHKOs if CAP flees]
CB Drain Punch cannot OHKO Soil unless CAP runs Adamant. Drain Punch does provide CAP the HP it needs to survive Pursuit most of the time, but all of Soil's other Dark moves are OHKOs. Drain Punch doesn't let CAP outright beat Soil even in Maxed damage scenarios.
Basically, Colossoil is still a massive threat to CAP. CAP already has options outside Drain Punch that pressure it offensively, what Drain Punch does is give sets other than Dragonium-Z a fighting chance not to be totally mauled by it.
VS Bisharp:
252 Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 336-396 (123.9 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 386-456 (124.9 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 540-636 (174.7 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
VS Weavile:
252 Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 476-560 (169.3 - 199.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 396-468 (128.1 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 348-410 (112.6 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard (Pursuit) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 246-290 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Drain Punch definitely gives the upper hand on Bisharp because it needs to land a Sucker Punch to KO CAP, and Disable is a perfect counter-move to Sucker Punch, however CAP is still playing with fire trying to predict Bisharp. Assault Vest CAP would outright lose because it doesn't have Sub or Disable to play around Sucker Punch. Weavile can't switch in on Drain Punch, but even unboosted (or if Weavile is using Focus Sash), both its main STABs OHKO CAP, and if it runs the CB set it easily revenge kills CAP after rocks.
Now, onto Steel-type checks. Ferrothorn isn't one. It just isn't unless we absolutely mollycoddle it. SubDisable beats it, SubSpite beats it, SubSplit beats it, SubWhirlpool / Sand Tomb beats it (Infestation triggers Iron Barbs). SubWisp beats it. Basically, any set that can successfully either lower its attack, lock out Gyro Ball, or prevent it from seeding while it inflicts trapping damage will overwhelm it because Spirit Shackle does not trigger Iron Barbs or Rocky Helmet and Ferrothorn can not remain in a passive battle against CAP and win. It might be able to set up 3 layers of Spikes in exchange, but that can be undone by a multitude of Pokemon in CAP, not least of which are Tomohawk and Kitsunoh.
Now, there is a Ferro set that can beat CAP. It's the one that runs both Gyro Ball and Knock Off. Per usage stats, Ferro's four most popular moves are Stealth Rock (95%), Power Whip (87%), Gyro Ball (65%), and Knock Off (53%), followed by Leech Seed (39%) and Thunder Wave (35%). Thunder Wave variants have a wasted slot against CAP, Knock Off is stronger than Gyro Ball exactly once if CAP has something other than a Z-Crystal, and without Leech Seed Ferro is a lot easier to wear down considering Spirit Shackle does 25-30%. However most Ferro sets are clearly using Knock Off as a Tech and are running SR/STAB/Support/Support, and Knock Off may or may not be in one of those support slots.
Steel-types in CAP in order of September 1760 popularity:
3 Ferrothorn: As explained above, many sets beat Ferro without Drain Punch
9 Cawmodore: Hit neutrally.
18 Kitsunoh: Spirit Shackle defeats this, but Drain Punch lets it come if for free.
23 Celesteela: Hit neutrally.
33 Magearna: Hit neutrally.
35 Scizor-Mega: Hit neutrally.
46 Kartana: Cannot OHKO with Choice Band Drain Punch, provides a bare 2HKO itemless. Kartana Smart Strike can 2HKO through the recovery.
58 Heatran: We resist its Fire STAB and Z-Move
64 Magnezone: We resist its Electric STAB and Flash Cannon does equal damage to SE Hidden Power.
65 Mawile-Mega: Hit neutrally.
71 Skarmory: Hit neutrally.
72 Jirachi: Spirit Shackle defeats this.
75 Excadrill: Spirit Shackle actually 2HKOs without an item, Drain Punch is superfluous.
76 Klefki: This actually threatens us with Foul Play >_>
95 Metagross: Wishes it were a Mega that could revenge us, cause Drain Punch hits neutrally.
In summary, Drain Punch gives CAP the standard counterplay and pressure almost every offensive Pokemon in OU and CAP have to pressure their offensive checks, but has minimal or no impact on viable defensive answers to CAP. Additionally, Drain Punch lures in other offensive checks like Kitsunoh, the Latis, and Scarf Tapu Lele.
Last edited:
Deck Knight the problem with Drain Punch is that it gives CAP23 basically perfect neutral coverage alongside Spirit Shackle, and provides semi-reliable recovery at the same time, when coupled with our great stats and ability, I think it might be too much. I agree that we need a way to pressure our checks, but of the examples you gave, Colossoil is already pressured because of our Dragon STAB, and Icicle Crash can hit it even harder than Drain Punch. Weavile is so fragile that it already struggles to switch into us (252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 243-289 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). While it's true Bisharp completely walls us, I don't think it is very relevant in the meta right now, so losing against it is no big deal. Finally, while Ferrothorn might struggle with some sets like SubSplit, Drain Punch allows CAP23 to break through it on almost any set, most notably being able to 2HKO after SR most of the time when using Choice Band 252 (Atk Choice Band Giratina-Origin Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). I don't think that just because we could beat Ferro with some sets we should just completely remove as a counter of the more directly offensive sets.
- Status