CAP 30 - Part 11 - Moveset Discussion

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Don't know how to feel about arguing against Imprison and then for Court Change but I do think Imprison is a tad more applicable than might be realized.

Consider that Taunt has to connect with the right target to do anything. If we Taunt a Pokemon that's not going to use a status move on us, that's a pretty big waste of a turn. Imprison can prevent any move so long as we have said move on our set. Since Brave Bird + Roost already shuts down most of Corv's standard sets, we could double-down on abusing it with access to U-Turn to stop pivoting or Defog to keep hazards up. Imprison also applies itself to the user, so we can Imprison while Corv is not on the field and still be able to shut it down once it comes in.

I'd wager there's enough potential with Imprison to make it work and it'd be a good way to actualize the whole "Utility Wallbreaker" thing, as being able to deny the opponent their moves (and thus own utility options) sounds pretty strong, especially given our high Speed stat.

Right now I'm leaning more towards utility moves than boosting, I feel it better aligns with the project and our desire to use Tinted Lens as a means towards opening up room for utility, whereas boosting makes us want to hard focus on deleting anything that stands in our way and for as long as possible.
 
Discussion has been inconclusive, with multiple options receiving substantial support, so we will be going to a poll to decide what move(s) to ban and what direction we will be taking with 30i's movesets.

Here are the options again:
Ban Swords Dance only
Ban Swords Dance and Coil
Ban Taunt only
Ban Swords Dance and Taunt
Ban Nothing
 
The polls have ended, and as a result, Taunt will be banned from moveset submissions. With that, I will be reopening moveset submissions for 30i, for all set archetypes. You can submit any kind of set, as long as it adheres to one of utility wallbreaker, offensive pivot, cleaner, or setup sweeper.

The following are movesets that were not affected by the move ban:
Yo, for "fast utility breaker" I think the following is very cool.

cap30isnakerattler @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- Brave Bird
- Roost / Recover
- Stealth Rock / U-turn / Gunk Shot

Set should be apparent, but Imprison is a lower power, but more targeted version of Taunt. Choice of recovery is based on whether we want the set to take on Pex or Corv better. Last slot is optional, would not hate SR being denied, but it acts as a pseudo taunt vs stuff like Lando. U-turn is probably not that smart for us to include, but listing it here as it would technically allow us to fully cteam corv. Gunk Shot is the safe option, and is the lowest added power level.
cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off / Gunk Shot / Drill Peck
- Recover / Roost
- Thunder Wave

BB / recovery is self explanatory, Knock Off leans into "utility breaker" and is very good but doesn't break our power level, Gunk Shot / Drill Peck are no-recoil STAB options which can be slotted over Knock pretty easily, and Thunder Wave is a less reliable form of denying recovery a la Taunt that lets you power through stuff eventually. Fairly standard "utility breaker" build –– not reinventing the cap30i wheel but I think something like this should be good for our purposes.
cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 172 HP / 84 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird / Drill Peck
- Amnesia
- Coil
- Roost / Recover

Immunity to poison means we can plop our fat ass in front of Pokemon that rely on Toxic to deal with set-up sweepers. this spread is designed for MNI Kyurem, but customize for whatever defensive benchmark you want. Max Speed for max greed and being able to Amnesia vs the likes of Krilowatt and Coil against other CAP30i I guess? You could probably get away with just enough Speed for Kartana if you don't fear the Astro.
I will be automatically considering these sets for my first wave of moveset submissions. Since we didn't have much time for people to discuss the submitted sets, I am looking for whatever feedback there is about these sets, including any minor (or major) edits to be made.

I am tagging Estronic, Rabia and Gaboswampert to resubmit their movesets that included Taunt, in case you would like to change anything else about the set. I will not be considering those sets until they are resubmitted.

Also, I am currently planning to approve Roost as our recovery move, and blacklist Recover and its clones (Milk Drink, Slack Off, Soft-Boiled). While Recover was regarded as stronger, ultimately there was not a particularly significant difference between the two. My general read of the thread is that people are ambivalent towards what exactly we choose, and I believe Swords Dance raises our power ceiling by a rather high amount, so I've chosen the weaker of our two options here. Put any comments about this in the thread; if there are no objections, I will approve it along with my first set of move approvals in a few days.

For now, the floor is open. As mentioned before, I'll be doing a round of move and moveset approvals in about 48 hours, and we'll go from there, whether that means more discussion on 30i or moving on to 30b.
 
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snake_rattler

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Name: Setup + 2 Attacks + Recovery
Move 1: Swords Dance / Coil
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Drill Peck / Knock Off
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I think Coil is still cool and should be considered alongside Swords Dance, so I'm adding it to this set. Gunk Shot is obscenely strong with a Poison chance, Drill Peck is a move that doesn't carry recoil while maintaining coverage against Steel-types (unlike Poison Jab), and Knock Off is just about the only coverage move that CAP30i would really consider given that item-boosted and Tinted Lens-boosted STABs are strong enough on their own.
 
Name: Scuffed Taunt + SD
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Roost
Move 4 : Brave Bird / Drill Peck
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

So we just banned Taunt because of the combo of Taunt + SD. Imprison allows us to functionally pretend that didn't happen against a lot of Flying type walls and defensive threats that rely on Roost, such as Corviknight and Zapdos. This will only work for Roost though, it won't stop Recover from Heatran or Toxapex, it wont prevent a Taunt that cancels our own Roost, it wont disable Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave or any other status move that Taunt normally blocks. But this is still a combo that can be used to target specific threats, especially if they see a rise in popularity.
 

dex

And then, Hefest got this run
is a Pre-Contributor
Name: Cleaner
Move 1: Brave Bird
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Knock Off / Sucker Punch
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Due to CAP30i's high Speed, it is going to perform admirably in the cleaner role. Knock Off allows it to chip away at slower Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Toxapex, while Sucker Punch lets CAP30i target weakened Zeraora and Dragapult.
 
Name: HO Sweeper
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Rapid Spin/Sucker Punch
Move 3: Gunk Shot/Brave Bird
Move 4: Drill Peck/Brave Bird
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Obviously swords Dance is a must for the sweeper set and is the preferred option for set up.
Tinted lens and the good speed is great for HO as it means, if you find the room to set up you’ll probably be able to take smth down or heavily dent it.
Since you probably won’t find time to roost on a regular HO build this set would probably prefer Gunk shot and Drill Peck over Brave Bird as it doesn’t wear down as fast but Brave Bird can be used if you need more damage vs steels.
Rapid Spin gives it a niche over other HO flying types in being able to come in on common anti HO mons like lando and Arghonaut and remove their hazards without removing your own, as well as making it incredibly hard to revenge kill for frailer offensive teams after the speed boost.
Sucker Punch can similarly work as a way to deal with offensive counterplay, while not giving up momentum on a low damage rapid spin or to allow 30i to revengekill or threaten out faster Pokémon, giving it room to set up.


Name: Imprison Utility Breaker
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Roost
Move 4: U-turn/Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Knock Off/Defog
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Imprison allows 30i to overwhelm flying type walls, that otherwise might have an easy time sitting on 30i, while also helping its team stay clear of hazard/status/Knock Off or keeping up the teams own hazards.
Additionally any of these moves allow 30i to compress roles for the team and serve as pivot, hazard control or status/knock off user.
Depending on the chosen utility move 30i can shut down certain opposing Pokémon to some degree and help with save switching as well as wearing down the opposing team.
 
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Name: SubRoost
Move 1: Brave Bird
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Swords Dance / Coil / Imprison
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

The goal of this set is to use our defensive typing and the general lack of offensive presence most of our defensive checks have to safely setup Substitute and use it as an opportunity to set-up Swords Dance and Coil. It doesn't really grant too much utility compared to other CAP30i sets, but I would imagine that it would do very well against Bulky Offense and Stall in particular. I decided to slash Imprison over set-up moves as a way to let us perform more of a role as a breaker, with Substitute further limiting Corviknight's and Skarmory's already dimished capacity to check us thanks to Imprison.
 
OGs remember when I posted this by accident

Name: Hazard Lead/Anti-Lead
Move 1: Brave Bird/Explosion
Move 2: Imprison
Move 3: Stealth Rock
Move 4: Defog/U-Turn/Explosion
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 20 Atk / 236 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This set is quite niche but it's something we're capable of doing thanks to high Speed. 236 Def is enough to live Jolly Lando Explosion if you're worried about it, otherwise the normal 252/252 works. Able to deny hazards and hazard removal from opponent while letting you get up your own, and you can slot in various other moves to shut down the opponent like U-Turn or Explosion (should we allow that one).

I'm less posting this because I see it as a dedicated set and moreso to gauge if this is something we want 30i to do.
 
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Rabia

men
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name: Pivot / Support
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
ability: Tinted Lens
item: cap30item
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

In my pursuit to continue disregarding snake's desire for a setup move to be included, I present Crobat v2.1. Poison / Flying is a pretty incredible defensive typing, providing key switch-in opportunities against the likes of Landorus-T, Jumbao, Rillaboom, and Urshifu-R even. Maximum HP investment is definitely me hedging my bets on Tinted Lens + the great base Attack stat being more than enough to compensate for the minimal offensive investment, but I think helping avoid coverage moves like Landorus-T's Stone Edge from pressuring cap30i as much could be cool. Status moves I think would be cool in the last slot; Toxic doesn't have a whole lot of great targets outside of Landorus-T but benefits from cap30 being a Poison-type, Thunder Wave would hit foes like Corviknight, Heatran, and Ferrothorn, and Stealth Rock makes use of cap30i's good matchup into hazard removers such as Tapu Fini and Colossoil.
 
Name: Coil Set-Up Sweeper
Move 1: Brave Bird/Drill Peck
Move 2: Coil
Move 3: Gunk Shot/Poison Jab
Move 4: Substitute/Knock Off/Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This time i tested it a lot, and i can say that coil is just sooo good, just one coil boost can do a lot of damage, brave bird is his main damaging move, deals a lot of damage, it nukes a lot of things with or without the boost, but im also gonna put drill peck as an option if you dont want to get the recoil damage, coil is his main move, his core, it can boost a lot and with the increment in def, it can defend himself vs rock type moves, and also use that accuracy increment with gunk shot, to also with gunk shot deal devastating blows, poison is not a very good offensive move, but with tinted lens, it changes a lot, but if you dont want to rely on coil to use poison stab, you can always use poison jab, sucker punch can be used vs fast mons, with a coil boost, it can deal some damage, (sucker punch just got blacklisted) but substitute is better in the same job, you can just switch into a toxic spammer/stall mon/defensive and not very offensive mon, block toxic, or some other move, and it will not have any alternate that its not switch, using taunt, or using another status move, because almost all of those mons are slow, you can substitute, and have some free boosts, at least one, its a great toxapex check with that, the only disadvantage that i see, is that if you go with the brave bird set, you are gonna get a lot of recoil, knock off was the original first move in the 4th move slot, but its not that good, i used it just to have something neutral vs magnezone, but idk, i dont think its soo worth it, roost does almost the same job, but without dealing damage or dropping the enemy item, but welp, its something better vs his electric and rock type checks, roost is like, almost just for brave bird and what i just said, its a setup sweeper, so putting 2 non attacking moves in it is not the best thing to do
 
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snake_rattler

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Some quick thoughts:

Out of all the utility moves floating around in the thread, I think I like Knock Off and Stealth Rock the best. Not that the others aren't good, but I have a preference for these. Knock Off is an actual coverage move that CAP30i would run, and compressing utility into an attack is really good for it. Stealth Rock would be interesting on a type that usually doesn't get Stealth Rock, so it would encourage CAP30i to have utility on its moveset a little more often.

I do want to comment on Sucker Punch and Rapid Spin outside of Amamama's hyper offense set. The hyper offense set can get away without Roost, but I think sets on more balance-oriented teams that run these moves would look something like this:

Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Sucker Punch / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Roost

Assuming that you need Swords Dance, Brave Bird, and Roost, your last slot would go to Sucker Punch or Rapid Spin. Of course these are good anti-offense techs, but then CAP30i doesn't have a great secondary move that it can click easily (at least compared to Gunk Shot, Drill Peck, or Knock Off). Sucker Punch can fail, Rapid Spin is very weak and requires another turn of setup on top of Swords Dance, and neither get the boost from [cap30item].

+2 252 Atk Crobat Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 172-203 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tinted Lens Crobat Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Crobat Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 342-404 (107.8 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tinted Lens Crobat Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 192-226 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Honestly a bit unsure on what to make of this. It feels like CAP30i can just barely slot in the priority move into a boosting moveset, at the cost of other moves it wants to run.

Name: Imprison Utility Breaker
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Roost
Move 4: U-turn/Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Knock Off/Defog
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Maybe CAP30b would run Defog, but I don't think CAP30i would. I get that it's an Imprison set, but CAP30i will get so much more mileage out of any of those other moves outside of locking out the opponent of their move. I think bringing back Defog when we talk about CAP30b is much more realistic.

Name: SubRoost
Move 1: Brave Bird
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Swords Dance / Coil / Imprison / Focus Punch
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Focus Punch is a big meme, but given that any super-effective coverage move that CAP30i would use needs to have super high base power (more than 108 base power to outdamage Brave Bird), I think it's kinda funny.

252 Atk Crobat Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 278-328 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 198-234 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Crobat Focus Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 214-252 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (good luck getting landing Focus Punch with DIB though)
252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 152-180 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Crobat Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 230-272 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Roosting Corviknight) 252 Atk Crobat Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 218-258 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 156-186 (39 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Roosting Skarmory) 252 Atk Crobat Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 118-140 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

spoo

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Going to comment on some of the moves proposed so far:

Roost
Brave Bird
Swords Dance
Coil
Gunk Shot
Drill Peck
Knock Off
Imprison
Thunder Wave
Substitute
Toxic
Poison Jab
Focus Punch
I'm in favor of approving all of these moves. Some thoughts on the more "contentious" ones:
  • Substitute could be genuinely broken in conjunction SD; however, in no world would Substitute be the broken element between the two, and denying it makes no sense given Substitute's almost-universal distribution. For now I'm going to believe that Sub + SD is balanced, and if that doesn't turn out to be the case then we can revisit SD down the line.
  • Knock Off would not break our power ceiling for 30i or 30b, and I genuinely believe it would be used sometimes –– this can't be said for a lot of other options here.
  • Imprison is something I do not believe will be used outside of tech off-sets (especially if we don't give out Stealth Rock, which I am also not 100% sold on), but it hardly affects our power budget and a lot of people want to give it out, so I don't think there's any issue.
  • Thunder Wave is similar to Imprison in that it's a scuffed version of Taunt (recovery denial), and while I also think it probably won't be used that much, it at least has broader utility than Imprison and might end up being sort of decent.
  • Toxic is universal amongst virtually all Poison-types, and won't break our power level given Toxapex + Steel-types already handle us pretty well. It could arguably see more use on 30b, if anything.
  • Focus Punch is a meme, but a cool one.
Explosion
Stealth Rock
U-turn
I'm like 60/40 in favor of giving these moves out, just some small part of me still has some reservations.
  • U-turn is probably the one I'm most leaning towards –– I can see in my head why it's useful, but generally the "fast pivot" thing meshes best with Pokemon like Tapu Koko / Cinderace (Aka, fastmon that can hold Boots) and really doesn't excel on a Pokemon that struggles so hard to maintain HP throughout a match. Rabia's psuedo-Crobat set is a mildly different build which I'm intrigued by, but I'm not totally convinced on its usefulness.
  • Explosion is a meme, and while I kinda like the idea of it, it's still a meme. Don't ask me why I want to give out Focus Punch but am unsure about Explosion cus I honestly couldn't tell you, but something about it just feels a tad unnecessary.
  • As I'm writing about Stealth Rock right now I'm kinda warming up to it, but still feel split mostly just due to personal biases. I was initially adverse to this move because I didn't want to randomly give out hazards/hazard control to another CAP as a lazy "safety net/why not" option, but after looking into it, I realized that we haven't given out Rocks since CAP25 and Astro was our last Spiker/Defogger so that reasoning is probably invalid. I also feel like it'll just be overshadowed, as there are frankly better sets to run / better moves to click. I guess it throws a bone to Imprison sets and has cool synergy with hazard removers like Colossoil, so in some respects it is definitely a cool option.
Sucker Punch
Rapid Spin
Amnesia
Defog
These are the only moves I really don't want to see approved at this point.
  • Defog + Rapid Spin are sadly not gonna be good on us. No one is going to want to run Defog CAP30i/30b over, like, Corviknight. It might be useful on double removal builds, but that still requires sacrificing any number of useful utility moves to run it, which I don't see as ideal.
  • Sucker Punch + Rapid Spin could get out of hand with SD. I want to preserve offensive counterplay as much as possible right now given that we kinda tear through most defensive cores, and +2 Sucker Punch straight eats a lot of faster stuff. Rapid Spin is less consistent but scary for similar reasons.
  • We should wait to discuss Amnesia until 30b movesets. I have a really hard time seeing it be relevant on 30i, but it has huge implications for 30b –– personally I think it will be unhealthy, but we should wait to approve/blacklist it until that point.
 
Before we begin, I will approve Roost and blacklist Recover and its clones (Slack Off, Soft-Boiled, Milk Drink), as discussed in my previous post. As a general topic, every single moveset submitted featured Brave Bird, an indication of the usefulness of high-power Flying STAB to 30i. I will be approving it automatically as a result.

While there were a lot of set submissions, there was not a lot of discussion about the sets, so I made some educated guesses based on trends in the sets. Here are some other moves I will be approving:
  • While very much secondary to Brave Bird, Drill Peck is the next best physical Flying STAB that can serve as a recoilless option, especially on boosting sets that might want to lay off Brave Bird's power, like snake_rattler's Setup + 2 Attacks + Recovery set.
  • Gunk Shot is the strongest physical Poison type move available to us, and having a second boosted STAB to click when recoil doesn't seem so great has proven to be a popular prospect. Even though it received barely any discussion, I will also be approving Poison Jab as a weaker but more reliable alternative, in a similar vein to Drill Peck.
  • Swords Dance managed to survive the poll, and has immediately come out as one of 30i's strongest options (after Brave Bird and Roost). It brings a tremendous power ceiling raise to 30i. Coil has also gotten support as a slower alternative.
  • Imprison has gotten a fair amount of support as a replacement for Taunt that specifically works on our Roost-dependent checks, such as Corviknight and Skarmory, without being nearly as overpowering on other checks like Toxapex. quziel and Jewvia have both provided sets that showcase where this otherwise uncommon move might pop up.
  • Knock Off has been pointed to as the ultimate utility wallbreaker move for 30i, and hesitation around whether it might be too broken in the hands of 30b seems to have dissipated somewhat. I feel more confident approving this now, although I am happy to revisit this for 30b if necessary.
This approves the following movesets automatically:
Name: Setup + 2 Attacks + Recovery
Move 1: Swords Dance / Coil
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Drill Peck / Knock Off
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This is pretty much the classic base of what a setup sweeper set would look like.

Name: Scuffed Taunt + SD
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Roost
Move 4 : Brave Bird / Drill Peck
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Here's a variation of the setup sweeper that features Imprison as its utility move to block Roost and Flying moves from Skarmory and Corviknight.

Name: SubRoost
Move 1: Brave Bird
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Swords Dance / Coil / Imprison
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
A set that is more focused on Substitute to buy extra turns and either set up or Roost some health back.

This is admittedly not a large list, but that is partially because I am still on the fence on a fairly large number of moves, and many sets featured at least one of these as a slash on their set. Utility sweeper sets like quziel's and spoo's and cleaner sets like dex's seem like very solid demonstrations of 30i's potential roles and are almost entirely composed of approved moves, but they feature one or two moves I am not completely sure about, hence the lack of immediate approval. Here are those moves, arranged roughly in order from most likely to approve to least likely to approve:
  • I'm fairly close to adding Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Stealth Rock, all of which are utility moves 30i easily has room for, although I'd like to see a few more opinions (particularly on the status moves).
    • Toxic has flown a bit under the radar, and some notable checks like Skarmory and Toxapex are Toxic-immune, but it can help stack extra damage on other checks.
    • Thunder Wave has been cited as providing some of the benefits of Taunt, in that can potentially disable defensive checks at opportune times, on top of letting 30i get ahead of any offensive counterplay that switches in at the wrong time.
    • Stealth Rock provides useful role compression, and there have also been some mentions of potential synergy with Imprison.
  • U-turn has received notable support, but I am still a bit hesitant given the complete lack of Boots access. Rabia's pivot set in particular introduces a rather unorthodox set that chooses to go for bulk instead of going all in for power, but I am inclined to agree with spoo that this archetype tends to function better with Boots (including Crobat, the Pokemon this set is derived from).
  • There have been some concerns raised regarding Sucker Punch in combination with Swords Dance, as well as its general reliability and how often it will find its way onto sets. I can see its use, but I definitely want to see more discussion on it.
  • Explosion in combination with Tinted Lens is an interesting combination, but I'm not totally convinced of its usefulness. To echo shnowshner, I would like to see if this is something that we want 30i to be able to do.
  • For Rapid Spin, I am unconvinced that a Stealth Rocks-weak Pokemon would want to act as effective hazard control in a Heavy-Duty Boots metagame, especially when it is already suffering from recoil from Brave Bird. I am also wary of it in combination with Swords Dance. Amamama's HO Sweeper set does raise an interesting point that it compresses hazard removal in a team archetype that often goes without, but I do question if 30i is really in the best position to use it.
Here are moves I am fairly set on not approving for 30i:
  • I am skeptical of Amnesia, particularly in the context of 30b and the potential of Special Attack boosting in combination of Stamina, so I am not approving this for now.
  • Defog suffers from the same "is 30i really in a position to be a hazard remover" issue that Rapid Spin has, but it does not even offer the same overwhelming sweep potential. I am open to reconsidering it on 30b, where Boots will help mitigate this issue.
  • The arguments for Focus Punch have boiled down to "it's funny and can deal big damage if you pull it off". I am not going to put it on without more thorough reasoning.
If you think any of these inclusions or exclusions should be changed, voice these opinions in the thread. I am willing to change many of these decisions if there is enough support in the opposite direction. Note that, besides the Recover clones (and Taunt), I have not blacklisted any moves yet. I will be leaving another 24 hours for comments before we move on to 30b.
 
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Toxic

This feels subdued enough to be legal. As a damage-dealing option it's much weaker than Brave Bird, but has uses against a select few very physically bulky mons and can weaken things long-term without having to chunk our HP stat. I.E. we can pressure Slowbro with Toxic and not lose a lot of our HP to Brave Bird for naught as it Regens off damage.

Thunder Wave

Personal biases aside this is one of the strongest utility options we can use. It cripples practically everything not immune, slowing down faster threats and stiffling defensive checks. For more balanced builds I see this being really strong, and it sounds like a pretty nasty parting gift to a slower mon when 30i needs sacrificed if damage isn't going to cut it (somehow).

Personal biases front-and-center I absolutely hate paralysis and its turn-losing properties as a game mechanic, and the idea of a cheeky TWave/Sub/Roost/Tinted Lens Brave Bird sounds like a huge pain in the ass to run into even if the set doesn't sound that good. In short I'm 40/60 on this but I'm not gonna campaign for either side. It's a strong move for obvious reasons but I'd be down to explore other utility options that don't throw bad RNG into the mix.

Stealth Rock

Rocks are good. The choice between lots of damage now vs. lots of potential damage throughout the match is perfect for what we're going for and follows suit with mons like Spikes Gren. 30i is interesting as a rocker since most Defoggers/Spinners probably don't want to stay in on it, but its longevity isn't great so it may not be the most reliable at keeping them up all game.

U-Turn

Good for reasons similar to Toxic: we can wear down or pressure checks without having to wear ourselves down as much. I could see this being a bit too much as Tinted Lens makes it harder to bring in your U-Turn resist (and makes switching worse as well since 30i can preserve momentum), but in terms of viability it definitely fits in.

Sucker Punch

Hard no from me. Let faster mons beat 30i because not a lot else is in a good position to do so.

Explosion

My thoughts are still on-the-fence. It would be hard to block thanks to TL and is stronger than our primary STAB, but like kj said it's not really needed unless we wanted to emulate the HO Hazard Lead Landorus set.

Rapid Spin

Weak to Rocks means we aren't a good hazard removal option which makes this a bad choice, but the Speed Boost sounds like one of those annoying fringe picks that 6-0s your team every one in a while which is not fun. So Rapid Spin ends up being bad for two entirely different reasons. Don't include this.

The last three don't seem worthwhile on 30i. Nothing else to say.
 
Status

Toxic
is weird for me because I don't think it's that great since it doesn't help at all into the likes of Toxapex and Skarmory, among other answers. Because of that, I'm generally ambivalent on whether it gets added or not but leaning more towards disallowing it just because I don't like it as much as the other utility options and would much rather prefer a smaller set of utility moves to pull from. The less we have to scout 30i the better, especially since 30i can easily convert free turns into kills thanks to SD. I don't think Toxic'll find much use but I'd rather disallow Toxic just to overall limit 30i's potential moveslots.

Thunder Wave is interesting to me because 30i is currently in a position where it can 50-50 the opponent between clicking SD or Brave Bird into the opponent either going into a defensive answer on the Brave Bird or a faster offensive threat on the SD. Thunder Wave works around this by making defensive threats cheesable through full paras and crippling faster threats (bar Koko and Zera), allowing for mostly consistent progress. As such I find it to be a compelling option since it actually has a valid reason to compete with SD, Brave Bird, and Roost for being clicked, although it does make counterplay against 30i more difficult. All things considered, I'm leaning towards allowing Thunder Wave.

On the topic of status, however, I'd like to throw support behind Will-O-Wisp. It functions similarly to Thunder Wave except it's far less devastating for faster threats to switch into, as faster threats like Dragapult, Tapu Koko, and Tornadus-T while disliking a burn, aren't crippled by it. Furthermore, it acts as a more "honest" method of breaking through defensive answers, providing 30i with better chances to secure 2hkos rather than relying on full paras. Notably, after rocks, a burn turns Brave Bird from a 0.4% chance to a 44.9% chance to 2hko on Max Defense Helmet Toxapex, and a 27.7% chance to an 89.1% chance to 2hko on a knocked Corviknight. Hence, I propose allowing one of Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave, with my preference being towards Will-O-Wisp.

252 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 112-133 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 112-133 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 156-186 (39 - 46.6%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 156-186 (39 - 46.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

Hazards/Removal

Stealth Rock
is an excellent option here in my opinion. The meta is currently lacking in good rockers right now; I find that Heatran is the only rocker that doesn't feel awkward to teambuild with. Landorus-T is much better suited as a Defogger, Clefable is kinda meh right now, Ferrothorn would much rather be running Spikes, Garchomp would much rather be SD + 3 attacks, the list goes on. 30i also has the advantage of pressuring common defoggers such as Landorus and Corviknight, the former due to typing and the latter thanks to Imprison, which will allow 30i to effectively set up hazards. Plus, Stealth Rock is near-universally valuable, meaning that it actually has reason to be clicked over SD, Brave Bird, and Roost. Rocks are a fantastic option and should be allowed.

Defog
is one I'm not 100% sure on how I feel. On one hand, 30i's weakness to rocks makes it a poor defogger, and although it can come in on Lando clicking rocks and Defog, that move then becomes incredibly telegraphed. On the other hand, I do think 30i has a lot of potential as a secondary defogger on teams, which considering how much 30i values keeping rocks off, may not be an uncommon team style. I played some test games with double Defog 30i + Astrolotl to keep rocks off from Landorus and Heatran respectively, and took advantage of the lack of rocks with 30i and Greedvile to decent success. As telegraphed as the Defog is, allowing 30i to easily be fit onto teams with 2 defoggers has some merit that I believe makes it worth considering as an option.

Rapid Spin
on the other hand has some notable issues that I believe should disallow it. For starters, it's very bad from a removal standpoint; as mentioned before, 30i's necessity to keep rocks off makes it very telegraphed, and unlike Defog, Rapid Spin can be spinblocked. In my eyes, as a removal option Defog is pretty much always better for 30i. Furthermore, the speed boost poses some serious balance issues for 30i. The set of SD/Brave Bird/Roost/Rapid Spin can easily win games on its own. In testing, I played with Coil and Spin and even then was able to clean games a bit too easily. Thus Rapid Spin should be disallowed.

Other Moves

U-Turn
becomes quite spammable thanks to Tinted Lens but is fortunately balanced out by 30i's rock weakness. That being said, 30i's ability to get non-insignificant chip with U-turn on would-be resists is somewhat valuable and sets it apart from the other fast pivots in the tier. I think it's certainly an interesting option and find it has full reason to be allowed.

Sucker Punch
in combination with SD poses some serious balancing issues for 30i. It always denies Dragapult from being a revenge killer, and it forces the opponent to keep their faster threats healthy the entire game, which limits play quite a bit. Furthermore, I don't find priority to be a particularly engaging route to take with 30i, considering that it is already plenty fast and would much rather focus on more utility options over making 30i a sweeper. Please disallow Sucker Punch.

Explosion
is another option I'm not particularly fond of. For starters, while Tinted Lens Explosion is certainly appealing, for most builds there isn't a reason to click Explosion over Brave Bird, considering that a +2 Brave Bird is more than enough to murder whatever's in front of 30i. Despite access to Stealth Rock and Explosion, 30i remains an exceptionally mediocre HO lead due to its inability to hold a Focus Sash. I see no point in Explosion. Please disallow it.

Amnesia
is a meme. Why would I boost my SpDef when I can boost my Attack and kill something. Why would I set up to trade hits with Koko/Pult when I can just click Brave Bird into them. Aside from balancing issues with 30b, this move is extremely irrelevant for 30i and should be disallowed.

Focus Punch
is funny and can deal big damage if you pull it off.
 

Wulfanator

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Toxic
This option seems relatively tame given that most of our defensive counterplay is not impacted by its inclusion. Toxic is definitely a move we should have a hard approve or disapprove given how problematic it has been for past projects, but I am unconvinced that toxic on 30i will offer anything meaningful. I would recommend postponing the approve/disapprove conversation for 30b since it could be more troublesome on a mon that improves its defenses steadily.

Thunder Wave
The inclusion of paralysis worries me. Having the ability to cheese defense answers allows 30i to snowball out of control if RNG is not in your favor. Thunder Wave would be more appropriate if SD had not been approved on 30i. Disallowing Twave seems like the correct response.

Will-O-Wisp
Compared to Twave, Will-O-Wisp seems like a more balanced addition to 30i's toolkit. Will-O-Wisp allows 30i to negate leftovers on defensive threats, create steady chip on other opponents, and improve its defensive capabilities in some matchups. I think Tinted Lens+Brave Bird, SD, and Roost will always have higher priority over Will-O-Wisp, so its inclusion will not be excessive. Approve Will-O-Wisp.

Defog
30i is not built to be a reliable defogger. The lack of freedom in our item selection makes it underwhelming at best. There isn't much of a need to make a ruling on this option since it does not impact 30i in a meaningful way. However, 30b may have use for it, so we can afford to revisit this conversation then.

Rapid Spin
Rapid Spin's functionality here is less about hazard removal and more about setup. I think that given SD and base 120 speed, we would be granting too much power to 30i if we also approve Rapid Spin. I will agree with the others and request that we disallow it.

Sucker Punch
Combined with SD, Sucker Punch limits offensive counterplay. 30i should not have a way to deal with faster threats so disallowing sucker punch is a must.

Amnesia, Explosion, Focus Punch
These options seems like random movepool additions rather than moves that will impact movesets. These options can probably be left for movepool submitters to determine their inclusion.
 

Rabia

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Toxic should be fine to give. Most of the defensive counterplay is immune to it anyway, and I don't think 30b is gonna be the "make or break" some may fear it to be. It'd be a great fit kit-wise there and absolutely doesn't make 30i overbearing.

Similarly, Thunder Wave should be alright. The cheese factor is worth noting I suppose, but I feel you'd rather be using other moves most of the time on 30i anyway. The Stealth Rock weakness means you'd likely want to be recovering health every so often; Swords Dance is broken and you'll want to set up whenever given the chance to win game; and Tinted Lens Brave Bird is literally 30i's way to make progress in an instant. I feel the opportunity cost to using Thunder Wave would be somewhat great and thus offset its potential negative ramifications.

Defog and Rapid Spin both should be disallowed. cap30 has a negative matchup into basically every hazard setter, and Rapid Spin enables a bit more than I'd like with respect to limiting your offensive counterplay.

Sucker Punch is probably fine? Worries about it limiting offensive counterplay a la Rapid Spin were are fair, but you can outplay it and it lacks STAB, which makes it rather weak even with a boost.

Amnesia and Focus Punch both seem like bad, gimmick options that don't need to be addressed at this stage.

Will-O-Wisp and Explosion seem like throw-in options that can wait until later for discussion.
 

quziel

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I already spoke, but SR 30i instantly has a place on a lot of teams because of its stellar matchup into many of the tier's removal options. 30i eats defensive Lando, eats the few fog Fini, styles on non-BB corv, etc. This mon instantly gets a place on many teams by carrying SR because of how efficient it can be setting them up (a disclaimer is that it will likely just shift the defoggers to mons that match up better into it). I heavily support adding this.

On the contrary, neither 30i nor 30b will be good removal. 30b is unlikely to really outpace Corv and pressure's ability to sorta deny rocks in the long run, 30i will be unable to outclass Torn-T's ability to hold timbs. Rapid Spin could see use on double removal, primarily as a way to get +1 speed, but honestly? just give 30i Agility/Flame Charge/etc if we wanna give it speed boosting. I support denying Rapid Spin / Defog.

Status moves are meh, include some but they won't see use over SD.

Sucker Punch is unnecessary, but we can include if we want ig? Being able to annoy Pult/Zera/Etc is value and would likely find a slot.

Explosion is completely irrelevant. It does legitimately like 10% more damage than BB, and BB also lets you KO yourself.
 

spoo

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Mostly reiterating thoughts from my last post here, but figured I'd go slightly more in depth on some:

For context:
+2 CAP30i Sucker Punch vs. Zeraora: 54.2 - 64%​
+2 CAP30i Sucker Punch vs. Tapu Koko: 55.5 - 65.4%​
+2 CAP30i Sucker Punch vs. Dragapult: 107.8 - 127.4%​
+2 CAP30i Sucker Punch vs. Weavile: 68.3 - 80.4%​
Even though these aren't insane calcs (bar Dragapult), I'll repeat that I think we have to be very careful with preserving our offensive counterplay now that we gave out SD. Sucker Punch + SD probably wouldn't be the best, most "optimal" set –– I see it as a move that has very little effect on our broader power level, but can still be used on off-sets to eliminate counterplay or net "surprise" sweeps in the late game. I don't know how apt of a comparison it is to Ice Beam on Chromera but it feels like a similar situation to a certain degree. Between moves like U-turn, Rocks, Imprison, SD, and Status (granted, most of these aren't approved yet), 30i would already have a large amount of possible moves and sets it could be running, and I don't really want to throw another in the mix when its only purpose is to go "oops your dragapult is dead now, sorry" or "oops you let your weavile get hit by iron barbs twice and surprise now it's dead."

I feel similarly to Rabia when it comes to TWave and Will-O-Wisp. There's a real opportunity cost to using Status over SD or anything else, and something like Will-O-Wisp will likely never be worth it. It may be "more honest" but it's simply not worth using if you're only running it for the very small amount of chip damage it gives. Thunder Wave is genuinely quite useful, and the opportunity cost to using it should balance out a lot of its predicted ramifications. Yes, RNG is annoying –– but rarely will TWave take all control out of the opponent's hands. Melmetal is a great comparison that uses TWave to a similar effect, but healthy counterplay still exists and it's not impossible to keep it in check even if you get a couple unlucky Paras or flinches.

The rest of the stuff I'm pretty indifferent on. I don't mind revisiting Defog for 30b, but it's bad on 30i. Toxic should be approved, but again it may be useful to revisit this decision when we discuss 30b.
 
Here's my decisions. I will be approving the following:
  • Stealth Rock got pretty much unanimous support for its useful role compression, so this is a fairly easy approval.
  • U-turn also got a bunch of support, as despite the Stealth Rock weakness, it still offers momentum preservation, and 30i as a pivot has a notable niche in getting damage on resists, so it will be approved as well.
  • There was enough support for Toxic that I'll be approving this for now, but I'm open to reevaluating this for 30b.
  • Thunder Wave has drawn some hesitation for the potential to cheese defensive checks, but I think I agree more with Rabia and spoo's arguments that the opportunity cost is great enough that the cheese factor isn't too prominent. Also open to reevaluating this if it becomes an issue for 30b.
The rest of the moves will not be approved. Here are the moves I am explicitly blacklisting:
  • Sucker Punch has drawn criticism for its ability to let 30i chunk, or even eliminate, faster counterplay, especially in the face of Swords Dance allowing it to bust through defensive counterplay easier. Thus, it will be blacklisted.
  • Between the speed boost potentially becoming dangerous and 30i's shakiness as a hazard removal option, I will be blacklisting Rapid Spin. The concern for speed boosting as a whole has also convinced me to blacklist speed boosting options in general.
The moves I am not approving, but also not blacklisting (they may be brought up later if relevant to 30b):
  • Will-O-Wisp received some late support, but it did not make it onto a single set submission and feelings toward status have been relatively ambivalent, so it will not be approved.
  • There was a bit of support for Defog allowing 30i to act as a secondary Defogger, but the general lack of support means it will not be approved either. We can reopen this conversation in 30b.
  • Explosion is regarded as inferior to Brave Bird due to providing only slightly more damage at the cost of all HP, and a general lack of support for the move means I will not be approving it.
  • Neither Amnesia nor Focus Punch received serious support, so I will not be addressing them.
cap30isnakerattler @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- Brave Bird
- Roost / Recover
- Stealth Rock / U-turn / Gunk Shot
Another Imprison set, although this one is more focused on utility compared to Jewvia's Swords Dance variant. Cutting Recover due to blacklisting.

cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off / Gunk Shot / Drill Peck
- Recover / Roost
- Thunder Wave
This utility breaker set features both Knock Off and Thunder Wave, leaning more heavily on the utility aspect. Cutting Recover due to blacklisting.

Name: Cleaner
Move 1: Brave Bird
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Knock Off / Sucker Punch
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Fairly straightforward three attacks cleaner set that relies on Knock Off both for damage and utility. Cutting Sucker Punch due to blacklisting.

Name: Imprison Utility Breaker
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Roost
Move 4: U-turn/Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Knock Off/Defog
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Extremely similar to quziel's Imprison utility breaker set, so approved for similar reasons. Cutting Defog for now due to lack of approval.

name: Pivot / Support
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
ability: Tinted Lens
item: cap30item
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly
This is a rather unusual set, as it is the only set that completely eschews attack investment in favor of more HP and a more supportive pivot role.

Name: Coil Set-Up Sweeper
Move 1: Brave Bird/Drill Peck
Move 2: Coil
Move 3: Gunk Shot/Poison Jab
Move 4: Substitute/Knock Off/Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This set was already approved by my previous set of approvals, but I forgot to list it, so approving it now. A Coil setup sweeper set that also uses Substitute to help accumulate boosts, avoid status, and buy time for recovery.
cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 172 HP / 84 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird / Drill Peck
- Amnesia
- Coil
- Roost / Recover
This set is based around Coil + Amnesia, but the latter move has generally been regarded as not useful and was not approved.

Name: HO Sweeper
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Rapid Spin/Sucker Punch
Move 3: Gunk Shot/Brave Bird
Move 4: Drill Peck/Brave Bird
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This set is predicated on Rapid Spin as a combination of boosting move and role compression on HO, but Rapid Spin was an unpopular pick in the presence of Swords Dance and was blacklisted as a result.

Name: Hazard Lead/Anti-Lead
Move 1: Brave Bird/Explosion
Move 2: Imprison
Move 3: Stealth Rock
Move 4: Defog/U-Turn/Explosion
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 20 Atk / 236 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
While this set features Explosion, which was decided to not be particularly useful in the presence of Brave Bird, I am not approving this set moreso because the archetype does not seem to be very popular. It was not one of the initial archetypes considered and there were also doubts about this set in general due to the inability to hold Focus Sash.

With 30i settled for now, we will be moving onto 30b. I'd like to open submission for the setup sweeper set specifically for 24 hours, and if there are no significant issues from that topic to resolve, I will be opening submissions for the other archetypes. Please stick to this archetype when doing submissions in this time period.
 

spoo

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Name: Bulky Wincon
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Hurricane
Move 3: Body Press/Flamethrower
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Nature: Modest

Not really sure what the optimal EVs/nature is for something like this –– I imagine 252 SpD Calm would also probably work (?) –– but NP is great on 30b for actually doing something when it's on the field instead of just sitting there hoping someone gives you free Stamina boosts. Flying + Fighting/Fire coverage is very good, and our bulk + defensive typing means we have a niche over other setup sweepers/bulky Flying-types with otherwise similar profiles to us, ie setup gives us a reason to be on a team.
 

Zetalz

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Name: SpDef Nasty Plot
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Hurricane
Move 4: Heat Wave/Earth Power
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm

In testing this set felt pretty good. I found SpDef investment to be extremely important for 30b to actually find decent set-up opportunity, though the loss in immediate power can sometimes be annoying. I was hesitant at first to sub EP since it is undoubtedly very strong and kinda feared the old gen Tomohawk vibes but in practice it hasn't seemed so bad. :tapu_koko: & :zeraora: have a little more fear coming in but 30b still isn't short for checks, plus having something safe to click without having to plot up first is valuable.

As an aside I think it might be prudent to ere on the side of caution when it comes to SpDef boosting in conjunction with Nasty Plot. While undoubtedly weaker than the obviously broken CM, sets like Nasty Plot + Amnesia/Cosmic Power could still potentially be a problem since 30b can still get by with just Hurricane if it's secured itself safe-set up. Won't call for a blacklist yet but it's something to keep on the radar and potentially test for.

EDIT: I have been told this is the opportunity to shit on CM. CM is absolutely bananas broken blacklist that shit immediately.
 
Last edited:
Name: Double Dance
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Nasty Plot
Move 3: Amnesia
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Def
Nature: Calm

This set basically serves as a bootleg Calm Mind Sweeper. While I agree that Calm Mind on its own is way too good and should immediately be blacklisted, I think Amnesia is fine because unlike Calm Mind, it actually has some form of opportunity cost to it in that it forces us to forgo coverage. That being said, I still think that Stamina + Special Defense Boosting is still really good, and Flying is a good enough offensive type on its own that losing out on coverage options won't completely cripple us either.
 
Last edited:

snake_rattler

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Name: Acid Armor + Body Press
Move 1: Acid Armor
Move 2: Body Press
Move 3: Sludge Bomb (/ Mystical Fire?)
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Calm

Unsure about the exact EVs, but this is another view on setup that puts a greater focus on Body Press. Although CAP30b has Stamina, a strong physical attacker could break past it before it accumulates Stamina boosts. However, with Acid Armor, CAP30i can get the jump on that physical attacker and start firing off boosted Body Presses early. Stamina making CAP30b bulkier over time will just help it get stronger, so I don't see Acid Armor "overshadowing" Stamina, but rather complimenting it rather nicely.

252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 134-158 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Acid Armor also means that Corviknight can't just sit in front of CAP30b and PP stall it - it would have to contend with an eventual +6 Body Press.

Sludge Bomb means that CAP30b isn't stranded against Fairy-types (2HKOs unboosted Clefable), and the poison chance against Landorus-T switch-in is nice. However, Mystical Fire was brought up as an option on Discord so I wanted to lightly entertain that, as that could potentially fit on the set too since it drops Special Attack? Still think that Sludge Bomb is better though.
 
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