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CAP 34 - Part 15 - Post Play Lookback

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spoo

spoo

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CAP Leader
CAP 34 So Far

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In this stage we will first reflect on the process so far, discussing what we've learned from this process, how this well we have fulfilled its concept, and what impact CAP 34 had on the metagame. After that, we will discuss some possible minor tweaks to the product in order to better fulfill our goals. Please follow the Topic Leader's instructions and don't propose any specific changes until they say so.

Changes allowed:
  • Move additions and removals
  • Changes to secondary ability
  • Small stat changes
Changes not allowed
  • Typing changes
  • Changes to primary ability
  • Large stat changes
 
Hello! I hope everyone has been enjoying Chuggalong as much as I have (a lot)! Playtest has been over for a while, so it is really time we get to talking about Chuggalong's post-play lookback. In this thread, we want to think about how Chuggalong is currently performing and its place in the metagame as it stands right now. Here are some questions to start:

1. Does Chuggalong successfully accomplish its concept? Is it a successful user of Throat Spray?

2. How effective is Chuggalong's current movepool? Is it missing anything it should have? Does it have any moves that it probably shouldn't?

3. What did we learn about niche items during Chuggalong's process? Are there any takeaways from Chuggalong's admittedly narrow process that could inform future processes?

4. How is Chuggalong performing in the metagame? Does it need competitively centered changes? Is it a healthy addition to the metagame or has it done more harm than good?
 
im gonna run a TRAIN on my offense teams

1) Yes. Best item by far. Nothing else to say.

2) Very effective, too much so in my opinion. Draining Kiss was a good removal but I think one of Flamethrower or Surf needs to go. The idea that the 'mon will become bad if so is, frankly, delusion; it's still a grounded Poison type with a great speed tier, genuine defensive utility, and game-ending potential, which are 3 incredible assets for offense teams. All this will do is make the 'mon a smidgen more scoutable; right now, being almost entirely unable to scout movepool is supremely oppressive and forcing an opponent to make "inferences" (read: blind guesses) is not a good thing. We can also axe some utility moves like Taunt/Encore because frankly minimizing the cheese potential on this 'mon beyond the cheese that is inherent in using it is a good thing. It doesn't need any additions unless we want to make it a Wishport mon anytime soon.

3) I think this really only reinforces how difficult it is to really predict how well a 'mon will do with the tools we give it, especially when there is no real metagame equivalent. (though, ironically, our only real baseline in Kommo-o got banned from UU recently with CSoul being one of its best sets. Who figured an omniboost is good everywhere.) This has been a recurring issue in CAP, which I have a personal issue with but that is a gripe that will come to a PR thread near you after a few more processes. Or in the Final Product thread if dex tilts me enough :ababo:. Aside from that, niche items are niche for a reason. We optimized our niche item well, but I don't think there is a real general takeaway from what is a pretty specific process.

4) It is performing very well, as anyone who has watched any CAPPL SV can see. Don't let recent weeks' usage/WR discrepancies fool you.
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Every well-played Chuggalong in the tour so far has forced significant progress. It's a good 'mon. I do believed it needs competitively-centered changes still. If there is no change to movepool like the one suggested above I would be interested in seeing a 5-10 point Speed nerf, which decreases its freedom to set up and allows more offensive counterplay; if there is a movepool removal then this is not needed. Again, with all of its utility that is not just being Cawmodore 2.0, it will not lose its role on offenses, it will just be less mandatory as a selection.

Chugg is not a detrimental 'mon to the metagame, but I do believe it is an extraneous one: ultimately it is just another option for offense rather than something that has up to now created substantial change in metagame patterns (aside from reactions to its uber-broken state weeks 1 and 2). You can see this in CAPPL usage stats, which showed how the meta pretty much reverted to the balanced comps of pre-Train after it got nerfed. I don't really see that as an issue, as, realistically, every CAP 'mon is extraneous to some extent, because a meta always existed before it. Again, I think it provides great utility for offensive teams, but, again, doesn't really make the archetype's place in the meta much healthier.

ggs on a good process. i heard the amtrak is hiring tho, please get out of cappl.
 
1. Throat Spray definitely gives Chuggalong a lot more breaking power, as well as boosting Stored Power by 20BP, which actually matters quite a bit. Other items have been experimented with (Leftovers, Sitrus Berry, Grassy Seed, Mirror Herb) but I think after Draining Kiss removal, Throat Spray is the main item used on Chuggalong.

2. It feels like the current movepool is fine. STABs + Stored Power + Flamethrower/Surf is very good coverage into the current metagame. I remember there were discussions about whether it really needs both Flamethrower and Surf, and that is an interesting conversation to have. I am not sure, but it does feel like Flamethrower is very commonly cut (where's Ferro when we need it?). The random utility moves (Taunt, Encore, Destiny Bond, Heal Bell) see basically no usage so I don't think they need to be looked at.

3. It is interesting how much the process was warped by pre-nerf Hemogoblin. Also, I feel like deciding on Clangorous Soul greatly limited the direction this process could go. I do not have much experience in the CAP process, and made no contributions during this one, so I really do not have much else to say here.

4. Ever since Draining Kiss removal, I have not seen much Chuggalong loaded. Maybe it just doesn't match up into the fatter meta that we have currently (Argh, Glisc, Garg are all being spammed). Most notably, I was the only person who brought Chuggalong to CAP34 Playtest finals. It has seen a few loads each week in CAPPL though, so I don't think this is a major concern. I'd suspect much more Chuggalong usage if the meta shifts to be more offense-oriented since it is very hard to stop in offense mirrors.
 
Does Chuggalong successfully accomplish its concept? Is it a successful user of Throat Spray?
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I believe it has successfully accomplished its concept for sure. Throat Spray is definitely the best item for it and even using other underused items such as Grassy Seed or Sitrus Berry shows that the concept was fulfilled properly and appropriately.
How effective is Chuggalong's current movepool? Is it missing anything it should have? Does it have any moves that it probably shouldn't?
Click to expand...
I think once Draining Kiss was taken from Chugg, it has put Chugg in a good spot. That being said, it feels like the cheese moves are unnecessary for it as it is usually CSoul 3A and speaking of those 3 Attacks, I do think we need to make the decision of keeping Surf or Flamethrower and get rid of the other one. It definitely would ease scouting if it is more set on what coverage it would run besides STABs + a potential Stored Power. I personally would vouch for keeping Surf just because you still hit Equilibra but you lose out on power against sun rather than your coverage being boosted by it. Flamethrower does keep Heatran as a check but I don't think that is doing too much to Chugg anyways and can be worn down quickly throughout the game anyways.
What did we learn about niche items during Chuggalong's process? Are there any takeaways from Chuggalong's admittedly narrow process that could inform future processes?
Click to expand...
I think we learned that despite having a vast array of "niche/underused" items, most of them are in that category for a reason and so it ended up feeling like (and being) a very narrow process overall but it was a successful one nonetheless as Chugg is utilizing an underused item. I say for future processes we need to heed the advice of "looks can be deceiving" since it seemed like we had plenty of options in the beginning but ended up having a limited amount of said options instead. I did enjoy the process nonetheless though and we have a great end product fwiw.
How is Chuggalong performing in the metagame? Does it need competitively centered changes? Is it a healthy addition to the metagame or has it done more harm than good?
Click to expand...
It has been doing really good as far as I have seen, but it doesn't seem terribly over-the-top like some other CAPs this generation (looking at you Hemogoblin :eyes:) I think losing one of Flamethrower or Surf (the former imo) would put it in the right spot to be a good tool for anti-offense with Armor Tail and for offense with a fantastic omniboost setup move in Clangorous Soul.

tl;dr Chugg is good, get rid of Flamethrower, good product from a good process <3
 
2. How effective is Chuggalong's current movepool? Is it missing anything it should have? Does it have any moves that it probably shouldn't?

There are a lot of cheese moves that I do not think should be in train's movepool, such as Destiny Bond or Encore, however, my main issue is with Stored Power. Stored Power is a move that is extremely powerful on Chuggalong after the omni boost, from 0 to a 140 BP Psychic Move on a Pokémon with 670+ on SpA after Clangorous Soul and Throat Spray, while also being a move that can destroy its would-be counters, like Arghonaut with Unaware, as the BP does not change even if the stats are ignored. Tera Psychic boosts this power by a lot more, and with the Sucker Punch immunity, it becomes almost undefeatable. It feels like it's too much and in a way, forced. Other Pokémon need more setup for a Stored Power set, while Chuggs can start from the beginning after the first boost and with a very strong one.
Non Psychic Stored Power users attached.
 

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The answers to Qs 1, 2, and 4 are pretty evident from watching CAPPL or has been following the Chuggalong discourse. Throat Spray is the best item for it, its offensive movepool is flexible and allows it to effectively catch the wrong "answer" with lethal coverage, and it performs well in the metagame. Won't comment much else since I haven't had the time to commit to actually playing the game as I wish.

3. What did we learn about niche items during Chuggalong's process? Are there any takeaways from Chuggalong's admittedly narrow process that could inform future processes?

First and foremost, I am glad we finally did an item-centric concept, but from here on out these seem like poor project goal. Item concepts suffer from a similar issue of "partner" concepts: you are trying to design a Pokemon around something you cannot purposely add or withhold from the Pokemon itself, thus you need to hyperspecialize the Pokemon to fit a narrow scope.

I think Gen 9 has been a fantastic time for CAP from a process standpoint since the three projects highlight specific strengths and weaknesses of the processes in terms of direction.
  • Hemogoblin highlighted the implications of second-guessing during a project, potential complications pursuing "open design space" over "definitive focus" (the vagueness of Hemogoblin's pivot role, the Kindgra vs Breloom/Crobat stat spread discussion, Physical vs Special vs Mixed), and the underestimation of Tera. However, Hemogoblin was a fantastic Pokemon for solidifying the CAP meta as something overlapping with OU but notably distinct, and a powerful lesson of how we hone in on an ideal power level for a Pokemon. In a lot of ways, Hemogoblin was one of the most informative and important CAP projects to date.
  • Cresceidon had exceptional focus and well-implemented excess and restraint in its different parts to create a balanced final product. Cresceidon is also one of the, if not the defining, best examples in CAP history of mindful and meaningful inclusion of a secondary ability. However, Cresceidon was not a terribly "exciting" project; it had very obvious abilities, moves, and even stats based on the concept that once typing was decided, Cresceidon had its own manual of assembly.
  • Chuggalong highlighted the complete opposite of Hemogoblin; the complications of pursuing directions with incredible restrictive space. Once Throat Spray was selected, we were realistically limited to "Unburden sets vs Clangorous Soul", and with typing and ability it was narrowed even further. This restriction was not well received by everyone (I didn't mind as much, but I also knew what picking Dazzling meant in the long term for the project.) The project eventually found its place to break through the guardrails in an excessive movepool. While Hemogoblin and Miasmaw had a lot of stuff that basically was never used, their identities where still not quite actualized. This Pokemon knew from the TYPING stage the only five moves it needed: Clangorous Soul, Sludge Wave, Clanging Scales, Surf, and/or Flamethrower. Everything else from Fighting-type coverage, which was cut, to Encore is just extra fluff. Stored Power being key to the Pokemon's identity but I don't fully like its inclusion, and I wrote up the formal moveset submission for it.
I think the take away from the recent projects is that how restricted or open we want a process isn't really clear, but you definitely want a clear vision established early. However, that vision shouldn't feel locked into a predetermined complete "set." Chuggalong being tied to only one item, and that item being so specifically niche that the only way we were ever breaking away from Clangorous Soul was Unburden or Speed Boost, meant that one of the ways CAP can branch out and allow creativity was eliminated from the concept stage. Chuggalong won't rank among my favorite processes due to how limiting the concept felt, but the final product, both aesthetically and functionally, took a railroaded process and went full steam ahead. I appreciate Chuggalong and dex's direction for making a Pokemon that clearly and objectively good at what it does and isn't afraid to be a game-ending sweeper.
 
Boomburts (is not stab and is designed to use throat spray)
Trailblaze, Flare blizt, flame charge, u-turn, earth atacks, quake/power, double edge, (is a train)
Withdraw, Iron defense (solid Dragon shell)
Scald, fire blast, will o wisp, strange steam eruption (Steampunk)
Poison gas or mortal spin (poison gas and wheels in he design
Dark pulse, snarl (dark coverage for gholdengo and troath spray boost
Flame Wheel (Flavor)
Focus Blast, Water pulse, Thief, sunny Day, Rain Dance, Shock wave, psybeam, shadow Ball, hyper voice, signal beam (random coverage atacks of many pokemon with no related designed like most of normal, psy and dragon types of the 3 first generations.
 
Alright! Great conversation y'all. To summarize:
  • Chuggalong is a great user of Throat Spray. We succeeded in making a Throat Spray user, as Throat Spray is up and away its main set.
  • It is possible that one of Chuggalong's two main coverage moves, Flamethrower and Surf, should be removed, as the combined threat could be overbearing in the builder.
  • Chuggalong's process was very specific, perhaps too much. The concept did not afford it multiple paths the further along in the concept we went as CAP often prefers; however, the end product is coherent, accomplishes the concept, and is metagame relevant, all of which were made easier by the narrower scope.
  • Chuggalong is in a great place in the metagame. It functions well as an anti-offense offense Pokemon but struggles against bulkier teams without Draining Kiss propping it up. This is the sign of a balanced Pokemon, one that does well in some matchups and not as well in others, and if nothing were done, Chuggalong would still be an acceptable part of the metagame.
I am opening up discussion now on proposed changes for Chuggalong. Because Chuggalong has been successful, I will really only be looking at nerfs. Here are some questions to think about:

If you want to propose a change/support a change:
  1. What competitive change do you propose / support?
  2. How necessary is the competitive change? What about the proposed change improves Chuggalong's effect on the metagame?
If you would prefer no change:
  1. Why do you prefer no competitive changes for Chuggalong?
  2. How do you see Chuggalong in the current metagame such that no change would be the correct path?
 
Speaking as a user, not as a TL.

Good sweepers in today's metagame have one of two things: incredible power and incredible coverage options. Let's look at OU's shining examples at these two categories:

Roaring Moon possesses incredible raw strength. With its Attack boostered and Tera Flying Acrobatics in its back pocket alongside a strong STAB move in Knock Off and a strong neutral hit in Earthquake (which complements the previous two moves well), Roaring Moon is able to bulldoze bulkier Pokemon through sheer power.

Iron Valiant possesses a decent amount of strength but really makes its hay in its coverage options. While a Fairy-type STAB move is ubiquitous, Iron Valiant has run everything between Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Psyshock, and Vacuum Wave on special sets. Physical sets have a similar level of variety, with options like Ice Punch, Close Combat, Shadow Sneak, Knock Off, and Thunder Punch at its disposal. Expansive coverage options are a big part of Iron Valient's kit and a big part of why it is so good.

I think Chuggalong does not cleanly fall into either category but definitely leans more towards the Iron Valiant side, not only because it just isn't as strong as Roaring Moon but also because its typing and current coverage do leave it vulnerable to certain bulkier Pokemon. For this reason, I personally support No Change. I think Chuggalong having the additional options of Flamethrower and Stored Power in its kit are good tools not only to provide variety to the Pokemon (don't want to make a one-dimensional mon even more one-dimensional) but also to help "future-proof" it a bit. As others have said, Chuggalong is in a very good place in the metagame right now. It is not too overbearing, especially having settled into a main set. If the metagame changes in the future and Chuggalong's anti-offense excellence becomes an issue, perhaps it would be worth revisiting then. As of now, I see no reason to support the institution of any competitive change to Chuggalong.
 
Dex is right that good sweepers need to be either very strong or very versatile. Granted, there’s a spectrum here, but the general idea is true. But what’s also common between nearly every powerful setup sweeper is that priority is the most effective (non-tera) means of dispatching them. Hemogoblin, Kingambit, Dragonite, Rillaboom, Weavile, Raging Bolt, Revenankh, even more niche priority users like Cinderace, Samurott, Iron Valiant, Miasmaw, Caribolt… there is absolutely no shortage of priority in this tier and teams that lack this resource are at a significant disadvantage. Chuggalong is, bar none, the most difficult sweeper to revenge kill in this tier after it has used its setup move. Sweepers like Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant need to use tera to be half as hard to revenge kill as Chuggalong is with its base typing. This is such an incredibly significant and unique advantage that no other sweeper in the tier comes close to replicating.

Counterplay to Chuggalong is very awkward as a result. Offense cannot fit defensive responses to Chuggalong outside of Whirlwing Ting-Lu, and traditional offensive responses essentially do not exist because of its speed tier and ability, so what we have seen develop is a number of Red Card and Mirror Herb sets cropping up. In CAPPL, we have seen Mirror Herb Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Darkrai, Cresceidon, other Chuggalong, and Red Card Gastrodon, Ting Lu, and Arghonaut. I may be forgetting others, this is just from memory. I also imagine some Herb/Card mons went unrevealed (e.g. I loaded Herb Deoxys in a Playtest series but never activated, I think Red Card Libra at some point as well). What this leads to is games where Chuggalong comes out and, at best, chunks a defensive answer before getting Red Carded out and rendered nearly useless, or at worst, setting up and getting counter swept by a Mirror Herb mon. This dynamic was greater when Chuggalong had Draining Kiss but still exists to an extent right now. The risk vs reward of running Chuggalong is frequently just not worth it, leading to a massive drop in its usage and winrate; however, teams still need to prepare for it, so they continue to gimp themselves with suboptimal items and sets that functionally have little use besides counterteaming Chuggalong (with some minor exceptions like Herb Zama and Red Card Ting). This is a really frustrating dynamic.

Part of the reason why Chuggalong is so hard to prepare for is its versatility. The standard setup + STABs + Surf set already has limited responses, especially on offense, but the existence of Flamethrower, Taunt, and to a lesser extent Stored Power, limit offense’s options even further. Running Mirror Herb Gholdengo as your Chuggalong answer feels bad A) because it’s a bad set, and B) because it doesn’t even work vs the rare Flamethrower variant. Maybe your team’s strategy is to hit it as it sets up and then revenge with Kingambit, but Flamethrower stops this strategy from making it out of the builder too. Whirlwind Ting-Lu works fine until you run into Taunt. Mirror Herb Zama is cool until you run into random Stored Power (although Zama usually needs to tera anyways to win this interaction). Chuggalong is fundamentally too difficult to dispatch of without suboptimal strategies, which themselves are not foolproof.

This is not a mon that can afford to be multifaceted. Cawmodore cannot afford to be multifaceted. Azumarill and Polteageist cannot afford to be multifaceted. This is the same kind of mon we made: a feast-or-famine sweeper, albeit one with a main kit that’s much more consistent than the examples I gave. Chuggalong is ultimately a linear mon by nature. If we did not want a linear mon, we shouldn’t have designed around an omniboost setup move and then given out an ability that invalidates the premier form of revenge killing in SV. I’m not making any value judgments here; being linear isn’t inherently a bad thing, and I think Chuggalong actually offers a bunch of positive things to the metagame (Oger check, Hemo check on offense, grounded Poison on offense, etc — it has diversified team structures in a really cool way from my experience). But the mon is balanced really awkwardly right now.

Chuggalong is too hard to revenge kill or force out. Teams are resorting to really stupid shit to counteract this, and it doesn’t even work all the time. Chuggalong usage dies off as a result. The teams are still running stupid shit, and when they get complacent and stop, Chuggalong rears its head again. Balance the mon properly and break the cycle. Either cut Flamethrower or nerf Speed. Maybe Defense as well; Mirror Herb Zama shouldn’t have to tera to win this interaction, and Tera Ground Blast Hemogoblin shouldn’t be a highly unfavorable roll. These nerfs probably don’t fix the issue entirely, but they help.
 
spoo said:
CAP 34 So Far

-----

In this stage we will first reflect on the process so far, discussing what we've learned from this process, how this well we have fulfilled its concept, and what impact CAP33 had on the metagame. After that, we will discuss some possible minor tweaks to the product in order to better fulfill our goals. Please follow the Topic Leader's instructions and don't propose any specific changes until they say so.

Changes allowed:
  • Move additions and removals
  • Changes to secondary ability
  • Small stat changes
Changes not allowed
  • Typing changes
  • Changes to primary ability
  • Large stat changes
Click to expand...
I think it should get Smokescreen as a move because of how the train blows out steam burning coal and stuff like that
 
Don't really have a whole lot of time today, and the 24 hour deadline has already been announced, so I'm just going to make this short.

Speaking personally, I'm for the most part fine with how Chuggalong plays into more balanced/bulky structures. Generally speaking, I don't really find it all that problematic to fit an answer for Chugg onto a team, and it's honestly about on par with where Cawmodore was last gen in these matchups. For this reason, I don't think we really need to cut into Chuggalong's offensives stats or coverage.

Where I find Chuggaglong problematic however, is it's interaction against offensive teams. Between Chuggalong's speed, especially after boosting, it's access to Armor Tail, and it's bulk giving it a fair number of set-up opportunities, it is extremely hard for offensive teams to account for Chuggalong in the builder, and in-game, I often find that if Chuggalong is given an opportunity to set-up safely at any point (Which honestly isn't that hard), then you pretty much lose on the spot unless you are running something really janky. Speaking personally, I often find that Chugg's speed is the main factor behind this, and as such, a Speed nerf would be the most appropriate direction to take. I personally think that -7 Speed makes the most sense here, as it allows Booster Iron Moth and Walking Wake under Sun to outspeed and revenge kill us after setting up, which while isn't a whole lot by itself, does a decent job at providing additional counterplay. -12 Speed is also an option that we could go with to allow max Speed Deoxys-Speed to outspeed us even after boosting, but I'm not sure if we need to go to quite this extreme.
 
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