CAP 36 - Part 9 - Moveset Discussion

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CAP 36 So Far

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:
  • Moveset Archetype Submissions
  • Moveset Submissions
  • Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
  • General Commentary
  • Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates
This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:
  1. People post moveset archetypes.
  2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
  3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
  4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
  5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
  6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)
By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:
  • The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
  • The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community
Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Aeroblast
Astral Barrage
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glacial Lance
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
  • Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.
Code: 
[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
  • Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Garchomp.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mega Crucibelle very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
  • Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed Gyarados and Heatran before boosting.
 
Home stretch, people! With CAP36's completion drawing ever-closer, it's now time for the Movesets stage, our final of the big four competitive steps. As a refresher, here are our chosen stats & the defining moves we picked out a few weeks ago:

110 HP / 63 Atk / 104 Def / 104 SpA / 134 SpD / 85 Spe (Base)
110 HP / 63 Atk / 85 Def / 134 SpA / 54 SpD / 154 Spe (Transformed)

Defining Moves:
Required: Inferno, CAP Song, Universally Assumed Moves
Choose At Least One: Thunder, Freeze Dry
Optional: Knock Off, Taunt, Encore, Psychic Noise

Fire Blast
Flare Blitz
Will-O-Wisp
Flamethrower
Overheat
Heat Wave
Flash Cannon
Iron Head
Steel Beam
Iron Defense
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Icicle Spear or Icicle Crash or Ice Punch
Avalanche
At least one of Icicle Crash or Ice Spinner
Endure
Facade
Helping Hand
Protect
Rest
Sleep Talk
Substitute
Take Down
Tera Blast

So to get the ball rolling on discussion, does the above list still reflect our goals for CAP36? Are there any moves here that now seem too powerful with the stats we chose, or any other "defining" coverage/utility options that we think are still worth exploring?

Additionally, dex did not specify a preference between Thunder or Knock Off in his winning stat spread. Which one of these are we now leaning towards? Is there any consideration for including both or neither?

That's all for now, gonna give this 24-48hrs and check back in.

Edit: forgot to mention this, but the TLT has decided that there will not be a secondary ability for CAP 36. Just making that clear in case anyone was expecting Secondary Ability to come before Movesets.
 
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I think Psychic Noise is fine to remove even though it's only in optional. Knock Off has an insane amount of momentum behind it right now and basically usurps Psychic Noise's niche. If anything, it just overcomplicates the Mollux interaction, and I'd rather preserve Mollux as a somewhat more consistent switch-in.

I'm frankly fine with both Thunder and Freeze-Dry being included for 1.0. The jury's still out on which setup (Thunder + Blizzard vs Freeze-Dry + Knock Off) will ultimately be preferred, and giving us the opportunity to see them in action is good. If I was forced to pick one, it'd probably be Freeze-Dry because Knock Off's inclusion is enough to bother Fire-type checks already.
 
Echoing Rabia here mostly.

Psychic Noise is a niche tech move at best and complicates our matchup into Mollux at worst.

I also agree with allowing all of Thunder, Blizzard, and Knock Off, at least for 1.0. I think we know less about how the transformation mechanic will affect CAP36’s viability than whether CAP36 would choose Thunder + Blizzard or Freeze-Dry + Knock. We can try to guess which combination is better now, but I’m not confident we’d come to the “right” answer from theory alone. It seems like somewhat wasted effort when we could just give all three and see how everything shakes out, along with seeing how the transformation aspect of CAP36 actual works. It makes much more sense to make this choice in PPL (if we need to at all).

All that said, I do want to ask: with Knock Off and 110/104/134 bulk, could we say with any confidence that CAP36 plausibly drop CAP Song for Protect + Leftovers? There’s a lot of progress that this set could make without having to swap to the cleaner form. I don’t think that sort of defensive set would have the same value without Knock Off. It’s harder to make progress with only damaging moves (i.e. Thunder or Freeze-Dry) and no option to go to the cleaner form to leverage those offensive moves better.
 
I agree that it’s not really possible to tell whether Freeze Dry + Knock or Blizzard + Thunder will be the better option on pure theory. Obviously, the latter provides more raw power for 36p, but the former also potentially gives more progress-making for 36a. I would not be opposed to giving all three of the above non-required moves if we think doing so would be healthy for the metagame. If I had to pick, though, I’d rather give Thunder over Knock Off. While having to choose between Blizzard and Freeze Dry in a set with Knock Off isn’t impossible to work with, having the set simply be CAP Song/Inferno/Blizzard/Thunder feels more intuitive in comparison. Furthermore, I don’t have an answer to Snake’s question about Knock sets running Protect + Leftovers, but I do believe it is a question worth asking. So if we do want to pick Thunder or Knock Off now, I’d rather go with Thunder.

I also concur that Psychic Noise should be removed from our move list outright. It’s weak, non-STAB damage that is really only good for Mollux, which I feel keeping as a consistent switch-in is for the best anyway.

Beyond that, if Knock Off is being considered I feel Taunt and Encore are superfluous. If we don’t get Knock Off then maaaybe I could see an argument for running Encore over Thunder to force switches or Taunt to block TWave once transformed, but I’m not entirely convinced. If Knock is given though, I feel it would simply be the preferred progress making utility move for its chip damage and more consistent applicability. So like, I don’t know if Taunt and Encore have to be removed now but they’re on thin ice if nothing else imo.
 
Funnily enough, I was having this conversation yesterday re: people trying to utilize the base forme as a standalone Pokemon due to CAP Song generally not being a move you'll want to use. I think it's a worthwhile concern in the long run, but I'm not convinced yet we need to act like it's something guaranteed to a) happen and b) be a successful strategy.
 
I feel like knock/freeze dry will never offer the same cleaning power of thunder/blizzard because even with stab in cleaner form thunder still has 110 BP over freeze dry at 105 with stab into waters such as cres and knock does nothing for cleaner form
 
To expand on my previous post a little:

In my eyes, having CAP36 be more reliant on pure damage output and status effects encourages CAP36 to want to transform after spending the early game in base form. The base form will get some solid damage in and spread some status, but eventually it’s going to “run out of things to do” as the game progresses, so it will want to transform. That is, the status will be applied, the chip damage it needs to do with its good special attack is done, and continuing to be in base form is no longer useful. By limiting how useful CAP36’s moves are in its base form, it will want to transform and then can continue leveraging the damage output piece in its cleaner form. This is especially true with Thunder as that can be a good tool for status in base form and coverage in cleaner form.

Knock Off gives the base form more things to do before it could want to transform. While I understand that Knock Off is useful and can serve the cleaner form later, it seems more likely (but not guaranteed) that, with Knock Off, CAP36 could run a Protect + Leftovers set that just spams Inferno and Knock Off and gets a ton of value without ever really needing to transform. I just don’t see this happening for a CAP36 build that’s solely reliant on damage output and status. Knock Off is also just dead slot for the cleaner form (unlike Thunder). If you spend a turn and momentum to use CAP Song, I don’t see Knock Off being a good choice for cleaner to click, which just limits its options to basically two moves, unless it wants to swap back to base form with another use of CAP Song.

So basically, if we have to choose one of Thunder or Knock Off (rather than including both) I think Thunder aligns better with the whole transformation strategy that we’ve built up for CAP36. This is not to say that Knock Off will not work for CAP36, but I have more confidence in Thunder than I do in Knock Off.
 
I'm personally pretty heavily against Knock Off + Freeze Dry and would much prefer the Thunder + Blizzard combo. The mon is already shitting on the primary knock absorber (Gliscor) and just severely nerfs how well almost any potential special wall fares into the pokemon. Shox is the only mon that could really get away with dealing with knock off sets reliably, and I think pidgeonholing a single mon as the only particularly reliable counter is not very enjoyable or interesting to the meta. Spreading guaranteed burns around with basically 0 risk is already pretty worthwhile progress, and I think adding another knocker to the already pretty huge pool of coverage-heavy knockers that are available in the tier just makes the tier more centralised on an already pretty centralising playstyle, and more difficult to build in for the worse
 
Somewhat of a last minute post so I don't know how much I'm not gonna go into too much detail here, but I very much think that including Knock Off would be an incredibly unwise decision. I have quite a lot of concerns about how does into our current matchups. We don't really have a whole lot of safe switch-ins at the moment outside of bulky Fire-types (Moltres, Mollux, Hemogoblin), Garganacl, and Shox. Notice how all of these Pokemon, apart from Shox, absolutely hate Knock Off (Moltres in particular). Considering that we already have a very consistent way of making progress that a lot of Pokemon already have problems switching into (Inferno), I really question if this is actually that good of an idea.
 
Bit of pushback against excluding Knock Off. With our 4MSS, just being able to fit in Knock Off comes with a cost against our matchups and is somewhat balanced by that fact. If we run Freeze Dry alongside it, we lose essential power, while if we run Blizzard, we lose out against Water-types. It's not that Knock suddenly makes our list of counters all soft-checks, but more than we become better at dealing with certain things at the cost of losing our advantage against certain others.

More than that, I think Knock is a clean way to stick to the concept of the defensive forme helping the cleaner, removing Boots and getting to KO mons weakened by hazards with the power of our Fire STAB and Freeze Dry, whose compression was I believe one of the reasons for the Ice type being chosen in the first place. Freeze Dry is also rewarding our transformation by gaining STAB, we should remember. Considering that a lot of bulky waters have healing (Cresceidon, Arghonaut), I think sometimes it might be more useful to get guaranteed hazard damage rather than a Thunder which can be healed off and you have to face a full health Water-type in the endgame.

I think the idea that we might drop CAP Song if we give it Knock seems unlikely, given the example of Hisuian Goodra which has a similar profile to us and languishes in the lower tiers. Granted, we have the Inferno compression but I think whether it is too strong or not is a question we should answer with actual usage rather than theorymonning. I think we have done a good enough job with stats that the we always want CAP Song still, but again, I think it's better to let it play out to get an answer.
 
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Guingil said:
Bit of pushback against excluding Knock Off. With our 4MSS, just being able to fit in Knock Off comes with a cost against our matchups and is somewhat balanced by that fact. If we run Freeze Dry alongside it, we lose essential power, while if we run Blizzard, we lose out against Water-types. It's not that Knock suddenly makes our list of counters all soft-checks, but more than we become better at dealing with certain things at the cost of losing our advantage against certain others.

More than that, I think Knock is a clean way to stick to the concept of the defensive forme helping the cleaner, removing Boots and getting to KO mons weakened by hazards with the power of our Fire STAB and Freeze Dry, whose compression was I believe one of the reasons for the Ice type being chosen in the first place. Freeze Dry is also rewarding our transformation by gaining STAB, we should remember. Considering that a lot of bulky waters have healing (Cresceidon, Arghonaut), I think sometimes it might be more useful to get guaranteed hazard damage rather than a Thunder which can be healed off and you have to face a full health Water-type in the endgame.

I think the idea that we might drop CAP Song if we give it Knock seems unlikely, given the example of Hisuian Goodra which has a similar profile to us and languishes in the lower tiers. Granted, we have the Inferno compression but I think whether it is too strong or not is a question we should answer with actual usage rather than theorymonning. I think we have done a good enough job with stats that the we always want CAP Song still, but again, I think it's better to let it play out to get an answer.
Click to expand...
I fleshed some thoughts out a little bit more yesterday in the discord and wanted to reflect it in the thread rq. This isn’t directed at Guingil specifically but the context here helps me start the post a little more easily.

Frankly I’m not sure if the base form has the time to accomplish all of spreading burns with Inferno, then spreading Knock Off, and cleaning effectively. I see the vision, and I know we have large bulk stats, but still I’m not confident we have the health pool to do all of that between hazard chip and/or powerful attacks running around. Of course, there are ways to mitigate this, but it feels like you have to play really defensively with the base form in order to both spread Inferno burns and Knock Off. This is partially why I asked about Protect + Leftovers - it’s not that it’s bad that this set is a possibility, but imo a set like this is how CAP36 could more likely accomplish both Inferno burns and Knock Off in single match. Basically, I see the vision here with Knock Off, but I think it requires too much time to get the burns off, then the knocks off, then develop the hazard chip, and then clean without CAP36 just…running out of HP.

On the other hand, Thunder aligns with the idea that CAP36 can apply direct chip damage from Inferno and Blizzard in base form while continuing spreading around status, and still be a useful click even in cleaner form. Maybe CAP36 doesn’t ever click Thunder before transforming because of the concerns above, and that’s ok - because you can click Thunder in cleaner form and still get good value out of it for damage alone, if not for the stray paralysis too, whereas cleaner form clicking Knock Off seems inefficient at best given having to spend a turn to transform.

Also, if we run Inferno / Freeze-Dry / Knock Off as you say above, we have a lot less offensive pressure to lean against. I find this to be an issue because the less threatening we are with raw damage in base form, the fewer times we’re going to force mons out and the more times we’re probably going to be forced out and have to suffer more chip damage (developing the HP pool problem above). While Knock Off can force switches, Thunder massively rounding out coverage (and still providing some utility) and making Blizzard the natural choice for Ice-type damage hugely improves our ability to force switches.

While we have a lot of power with Inferno / Blizzard / Thunder, we’re forcing CAP36 to perform on raw damage, status, and the power of our transformation. As far as I can tell, we’re not letting it set up boosts or manipulate hazards or pivot with U-turn, and obviously I’m arguing against item manipulation, at least via Knock Off. Trying to be careful how I say this: it is somewhat limiting (but not necessary bad) to be mostly reliant on fewer avenues of progress because you can’t just break through or mitigate a wider swath of checks with a greater variety of moves. As obviously strong that Thunder sets would be, at least specially defensive walls only fear burn or paralysis, without having to factor in Knock Off removing their items. If we don’t make everything basically a soft check with Knock Off, our counterplay can focus on the direct damage we’re outputting and the status we’re spreading. Sure there’s more offensive pressure on the counterplay to contend with, but at least, say, Garganacl can keep its Leftovers.

I do want to reiterate: I can’t say for certain which of the Thunder gameplan or Knock Off gameplan is going to work. Like you say, theorymon can only get us so far. I can say that I have much greater confidence in Thunder because
  • it’s not only a useful click in base form, but it’s still a useful click in cleaner form, even if we never click it once in base form,
  • it helps increase our base form’s offensive pressure (not only by being stronger than Freeze-Dry but also by freeing up a slot for Blizzard) which I believe to be key to our gameplan to gain free turns to continue spreading status/chip while avoiding incoming damage,
  • it doesn’t require as the grindy playstyle of trying to spread both burns AND Knock Off (which I don’t think we can pull off without some sort of longevity), and
  • it tightens up the avenues for how counterplay has to respond to CAP36 by not having Knock Off, pretty much the most catch-all check-softening solution in the game.
 
snake said:
I fleshed some thoughts out a little bit more yesterday in the discord and wanted to reflect it in the thread rq. This isn’t directed at Guingil specifically but the context here helps me start the post a little more easily.

Frankly I’m not sure if the base form has the time to accomplish all of spreading burns with Inferno, then spreading Knock Off, and cleaning effectively. I see the vision, and I know we have large bulk stats, but still I’m not confident we have the health pool to do all of that between hazard chip and/or powerful attacks running around. Of course, there are ways to mitigate this, but it feels like you have to play really defensively with the base form in order to both spread Inferno burns and Knock Off. This is partially why I asked about Protect + Leftovers - it’s not that it’s bad that this set is a possibility, but imo a set like this is how CAP36 could more likely accomplish both Inferno burns and Knock Off in single match. Basically, I see the vision here with Knock Off, but I think it requires too much time to get the burns off, then the knocks off, then develop the hazard chip, and then clean without CAP36 just…running out of HP.

On the other hand, Thunder aligns with the idea that CAP36 can apply direct chip damage from Inferno and Blizzard in base form while continuing spreading around status, and still be a useful click even in cleaner form. Maybe CAP36 doesn’t ever click Thunder before transforming because of the concerns above, and that’s ok - because you can click Thunder in cleaner form and still get good value out of it for damage alone, if not for the stray paralysis too, whereas cleaner form clicking Knock Off seems inefficient at best given having to spend a turn to transform.

Also, if we run Inferno / Freeze-Dry / Knock Off as you say above, we have a lot less offensive pressure to lean against. I find this to be an issue because the less threatening we are with raw damage in base form, the fewer times we’re going to force mons out and the more times we’re probably going to be forced out and have to suffer more chip damage (developing the HP pool problem above). While Knock Off can force switches, Thunder massively rounding out coverage (and still providing some utility) and making Blizzard the natural choice for Ice-type damage hugely improves our ability to force switches.

While we have a lot of power with Inferno / Blizzard / Thunder, we’re forcing CAP36 to perform on raw damage, status, and the power of our transformation. As far as I can tell, we’re not letting it set up boosts or manipulate hazards or pivot with U-turn, and obviously I’m arguing against item manipulation, at least via Knock Off. Trying to be careful how I say this: it is somewhat limiting (but not necessary bad) to be mostly reliant on fewer avenues of progress because you can’t just break through or mitigate a wider swath of checks with a greater variety of moves. As obviously strong that Thunder sets would be, at least specially defensive walls only fear burn or paralysis, without having to factor in Knock Off removing their items. If we don’t make everything basically a soft check with Knock Off, our counterplay can focus on the direct damage we’re outputting and the status we’re spreading. Sure there’s more offensive pressure on the counterplay to contend with, but at least, say, Garganacl can keep its Leftovers.

I do want to reiterate: I can’t say for certain which of the Thunder gameplan or Knock Off gameplan is going to work. Like you say, theorymon can only get us so far. I can say that I have much greater confidence in Thunder because
  • it’s not only a useful click in base form, but it’s still a useful click in cleaner form, even if we never click it once in base form,
  • it helps increase our base form’s offensive pressure (not only by being stronger than Freeze-Dry but also by freeing up a slot for Blizzard) which I believe to be key to our gameplan to gain free turns to continue spreading status/chip while avoiding incoming damage,
  • it doesn’t require as the grindy playstyle of trying to spread both burns AND Knock Off (which I don’t think we can pull off without some sort of longevity), and
  • it tightens up the avenues for how counterplay has to respond to CAP36 by not having Knock Off, pretty much the most catch-all check-softening solution in the game.
Click to expand...

I agree that Thunder, and limiting 36 to perform on damage and status alone, is a route that achieves the concept without introducing the problem of leaning too much into our defensive form. I think you put it nicely (if I understood it correctly) in Discord that the difference is that Thunder enables the "Transformation" while Knock Off bolsters the "Defensive/Utility" function. I guess the crux of my argument is that we might not do enough defensively/utility-wise with Thunder and that Knock has specific, and not general, utilities that go towards enabling/helping the cleaner forme, which is what the concept is.

Regarding not having enough time to do all of status spreading, knocking and cleaning with a grindy playstyle, I have two counterpoints:

1) We're not trying to grind in the first place, at least all the time. The threat of Knock on 36 is greater than the value Knock itself provides, and we should not think of multiple Knocks as our benchmark for success, but rather how threatening the Inferno/Knock combination is to anything that switches in. I believe a lot of the time we will get to press our Infernos, or Knocks, when we are already threatening the opponent to switch out, and now any midground play against us is punished. I am thinking of how Great Tusk uses Knock in conjunction with Rapid Spin to punish the Ghost-types that it brings in. Thunder does the same thing, but a lot of mons can simply heal this damage off (Arghonaut, Cresceidon, Mollux, etc). This becomes a problem because 36 cannot afford to stay in to pressure further most of the time lest it sacrifice its own HP getting hit by a counterattack. So, when it's actually time to clean, guaranteed endgame hazard damage (~12%-25%) with boots Knocked Off is, in my opinion, more valuable than early game Thunder damage that can be healed off. And it fits the concept of "Help Yourself" more. My points here assume another thing, however, which is...

2) We can't ignore (or understate) how dependent we are on teammates. I am not sure if this is a consideration in CAP processes, but we know our typing and three common weaknesses make it such that switching in is not easy (which we see with Heatran and its fall to UU). I imagine that slow-pivoting might be an important way of bringing CAP in, and in that turn we are in, something permanent (status/item removal) is more valuable than something that can be reversed, like damage. This also makes the possibility of getting Wish passes not insignificant. Since 36 can't set hazards on its own either, having Knock would require teammates which can do so. I'm not saying the grindy style is the one we prefer, as I think the Inferno/Knock combination is strong enough even with few turns, but if we want it, it is not as if we don't have options by depending on teammates, which our typing somewhat asks us to do anyway. We can't erase this consideration and theorise using 36 only in a vacuum, I feel.

The risk of us dropping Song with Knock is a real possibility, but I don't know if it is significant. When we think of bulky Pokémon that are successful with no healing/hazard setting or control/pivoting, the list is actually very small. I have brought up Hisuian Goodra as an example before multiple times. While the difference that No Guard Inferno might make is unknown, as we have no reference for comparison, I believe it's something we can test out with usage rather than write it out with theory.

This might be somewhat minor compared to the above points, but the compression provided by Freeze Dry is an amazing thing available to Ice-types, and while Thunder competes with it for a slot, Knock is the best thing to pair with it. Of course, Freeze Dry/Blizzard sets are also a possibility (Kyurem, Iron Bundle), but I believe that all of the sets we have discussed (Inferno/FD/Knock/Song -> weaker, soft-checks; Inferno/Blizzard/Thunder/Song, Inferno/FD/Blizzard/Song, Inferno/Blizzard/Knock/Song -> stronger, less utility, hard checks) have different strengths and testing would be the best way to understand the fulfilment of the concept with each.

So, uh, yeah, while I believe that Knock Off is fulfilling the "Help Yourself" part of the concept by making permanent gains towards the endgame cleaning stage, I'd like to see both.
 
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Let this discussion run a little longer since this is probably the most important decision we'll make this stage + we aren't on a super tight timeframe for once. If we picked less strong stats, I think giving out both knock off and thunder with the intent to trim one of them later would be okay, but that route is sorta concerning to me given how beefy our stat spreads ended up. I suppose I am just growing a little weary of the “release strong + nerf down” approach and how unpleasant it can make the first few initial weeks/months after launch. Difficult as it may be, I think we should commit to a choice now.

I think both knock and thunder will lead to a strong and viable end product, so which one is “better” or “worse” does not matter a ton to me. Thunder is ostensibly a bit stronger overall — i.e. knock>thunder on the base form, but thunder>>>knock on the cleaner form—but this difference in strength seems pretty marginal and not worth considering too much.

The one big selling point that knock has IMO is that it appears to be more pro-concept than thunder. While thunder offers some utility in (inconsistently) spreading paras, this really pales in comparison to reliable item removal. Knock does a much better job fulfilling the “cripple stuff -> clean later” general gameplan that our concept asks us to perform. How effective we'd actually be at this is difficult to gague—the grindy playstyle that knock encourages might not be ideal given our lack of longevity, mediocre defensive typing, and desire to preserve HP for lategame—but this feels really hard to say for sure without seeing it in action. Ultimately, I still think knock succeeds far more than thunder in breaking for ourselves to have an easier time cleaning up.

Thunder’s selling points are a bit more subjective or nuanced, but snake has done a great job elucidating them. Thunder seems to align with our transformation better, strongly incentivizing the use of our pirouette form—though, I imagine we'll still have plenty incentive without it—and might have preferable lines of counterplay compared to Knock Off, a move that we've given out to two offensive fire-types before and promptly removed each time. There's just very little that can a) comfortably switch into all of inferno, knock off, and ice STAB, and b) can actually threaten CAP36 and force it out. Not like there's a huge breadth of counterplay to inferno/blizzard/thunder either, but, comparatively speaking, I think it's preferable. Downside of course is that it doesn't contribute much to the concept.

I'm leaning against knock off the more I think about it; the combination of inferno/knock/ice STAB just reads as overbearing to me. I don't think it would be too strong, but perhaps too unhealthy. The amount of reliable builder responses to that trio of moves is abysmal, and with that level of team support, we may end up just helping our teammates sweep more than we help ourselves.

Think at this point it's either thunder or neither, but I'm still open to being pursuaded another way. I am also open to including other coverage such as weak water/ground/fighting options should we decide on exlcuding both thunder and knock off. Like I said, this is a big decision, and discussion has been good so far so I don't want to rush it. Real 24hr warning this time before moving on.
 
Gonna dip my toes in the water on a topic that I find harder to weigh in on (sorry for being gone all of stats, I'm unsure I'll ever figure that stuff out...)

I think that Thunder is... fine? I'm not against it necessarily, but I do wonder if we're trending towards a 'mon that simply wants to tap into its offensive stats ASAP to fire off this unerring, high base power moves. I'd much rather like to see Freeze Dry as a more understated yet-still-scary-secondary-effect move that won't make facing the offensive forme a game of high BP roulette, which I fear something like RS/Inferno/Thunder/Blizzard will become. Good luck if your Heatran gets paralyzed.

I definitely think that Knock isn't the way here. It reads to me as a move for a different 'mon, and strikes me as potentially a bit busted in matchups where the pre- and post- transformation responses to CAP36 are different. Like, the answer to Knock is to send in your Gliscor or your paradox mon, but what happens when Knock is present on a transforming 'mon, especially one as distinct as this one, and then you have to deal with two+ mons being knocked because you have to answer the formes differently? It strikes me as a move that doesn't add much to the 'mon in encouragement of it transforming or (and yes I recognize the argument in the other direction) a move that sets it up for sweeping later. Knock is a move you reply to with a 'mon that doesn't mind losing its item/has already used its item. I don't see it as super big as this progress-maker move for CAP36's transformation goal.

As for the other optional moves, I think that I like Taunt the most, followed by Psychic Noise and then Encore. Taunt strikes me as much more likely to be successfully usable, especially on the defensive 'mon. It's a bit of a gamble, but it's a move that encourages CAP36 to stay in and take advantage of the disruption. Encore, on the other hand, I feel like is more a move that encourages CAP36 switch out to the 'mon best positioned to take advantage of the repeat move/forced switch, which seems not ideal to the concept to me for an optional move. Psychic Noise I have no strong feelings about whatsoever - I suppose it might be cool to have a tech that makes it difficult for recovery mons to whittle you down? My brain empty here, to be honest.
 
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