• Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!

CAP 37 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 1

Status
Not open for further replies.
spoo

spoo

is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Top Community Contributoris a Top Metagame Resource Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Leader
Before you vote, it's important that you read through each concept carefully, as well as look at our TL earthflax's final post in the concept submissions thread with their justification for each that made the slate, since this concept will guide the discussion for the rest of the CAP Process. This is linked here.

This will be a Ranked Pairs vote (RP) (a form of voting where each candidate is ranked according to head to head matchups with each of its competitors in a directed acyclic graph), the details of which were discussed here.

This is a ranked vote: order does matter! You can upvote your favorites and downvote your least favorites. You may choose to rank as many or as few options as you like, but we encourage you to rank as many options as possible to ensure your preferences are taken into account fully.

Bold your votes and nothing else!

A typical vote might look like the following:

Most Preferred
Second Most Preferred
Third Most Preferred

Any comments that the voter has would go below the votes in non-bold text. Bold text is used to determine what the user's votes are, so none of the supplementary text should be in bold.
Click to expand...

CAP uses automated scripts to count votes. For this reason, it is very important for all ballots to be submitted correctly. If you do not compose a legal ballot, your post will be subject to moderation.
  • The scripts count bold words in ballots, so do NOT bold anything in your ballot other than the options you are voting for.
  • Do NOT put any formatting other than bold in your post.
  • Only one option per line.
  • The spelling of options must be EXACTLY correct and must match the spelling listed below.
  • Capitalization and spaces are ignored by the vote counting scripts, but you probably should not depend on it.
Composing a proper ballot is easy. Enter BBCode Edit Mode (the A in the upper right corner). Copy/paste the options directly from the OP to your ballot as plain unbolded text. Delete and/or rearrange the options to suit your preference and the poll type. Bold your vote text using bold tags or re-enter rich text mode, highlight your vote and click B. Spelling or formatting errors may spoil your ballot, so be careful!

Please post only your votes in this thread. You are allowed to say whatever you like in relation to your vote at the bottom of your post, but please do not look to begin a discussion. Keep those comments to the PS! CAP chatroom or the CAP Discord channel.

Asking for votes for your submission or for the submissions of others is not allowed. Anyone found to have done so risks punishment at the moderation team's discretion. If you find that someone has broken this rule, please contact the CAP moderation team with your evidence and no one else. Mini-moderation of this rule is also considered a serious offense and can be punished.

IMPORTANT: When voting, use only the exact name of the concept submissions as listed below! The concept submissions are quoted below in order of submission:

Perfect Conditions
Name: Perfect Conditions

Description: This CAP excels at using moves with a conditional activation or effect.

Justification: Moves with a conditional activation such as Sucker Punch and Destiny Bond have seen a wide range of success throughout competitive history as well as moves with a conditional effect such as Grassy Glide or Rising Voltage.
More on point examples would range from sets like SubPunch Breloom in DPP OU to Beak Blast Celesteela in SS STABmons. Even nowadays, you still see some of these moves with usage in almost every competitive tier such as Sucker Punch and Hex. Although as time has gone on, some of these moves themselves have also become less popular whether that is due to exclusivity (Beak Blast, Comeuppance, etc.) or just straight up unviability (Attract, Covet, Steel Roller, etc.). Some of these moves can have extremely powerful effects when procced which can allow for an interesting process on how to navigate the ability to achieve the success of running a move with these conditions attached to it.

Questions to be Answered:

- What's the difference between a move with a conditional activation and a move with a conditional effect? What are the similarities? Is one more viable than the other with regards to usage?

- What makes a move with a conditional effect work in a competitive scene like Hex or Thunderclap while others such as Thief falter?

- Why are moves with these conditional effects, outside of moves such as Sucker Punch and Hex, rarely seen? Is this just due to the nature of having to activate the condition or is it the lack of accessibility for Pokemon to utilize these moves?

- What needs to be achieved to successfully utilize the effects of these moves? How does one leverage these effects to apply pressure or put the team it is on at an advantage?

- What advantages are there to using these moves with conditional effects?
Click to expand...

Which Road Leads to Rome?
Name: Which Road Leads to Rome?

Description: This Pokémon can be played in two competing modes aimed at achieving the same goal: one high-risk, high-reward, the other more consistent but with lower immediate impact.

Justification: A defining dilemma in competitive Pokémon is the choice between high-risk, high-reward options and things that consistently generate value but with a lower immediate outcome. This is seen in iconic examples like Dragon Pulse vs Draco Meteor, or how, in CAP, Sticky Hold on Shox sees more use than the immediate power provided by Electromorphosis, which could whiff into a Ground-type. So what goes into deciding between these options? The impact of high-risk options is sometimes necessary to break through enemy plans in one go. On the other hand, lower-impact, consistent options don't leave a game up to chance and often help with secondary effects (e.g., Horn Leech over Power Whip on Ogerpon, or Heavy-Duty-Boots on an offensive Pokemon over a damage-boosting item). In SV, Terastallization can also power up lower-powered, non-STAB options (which leads to things like Dragonite not running STABs now).

The current metagame provides a unique space to investigate the many facets of risk vs safety (accuracy, secondary effects, being locked into a move, recoil, coverage, setup, etc). So why not put it to the test? The idea is to make a single Pokémon that can adopt two different modes: one that exemplifies risk, and the other, safety. By trying to make these modes mutually exclusive but still aim for the same goal, we can see which is more suited to achieving it, how it is possible to achieve such a separation within the same Pokemon (whether it is with investment, different abilities, or moves), and learn a lot about risk in Pokémon the process.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • What constitutes risk? What constitutes safer options?
  • For a given goal, which of the two modes is optimal for achieving it?
  • What is the number of changes between sets for the same Pokémon to make them distinct, in terms of moves, investment, ability, or Tera type?
  • How cleanly is it possible to make mutually exclusive approaches, given that the Pokémon will have the same stats, movepool, typing, and perhaps even ability between the two modes? Is the emergence of "middle-ground" sets, which take the best of both worlds, possible or even inevitable?
  • Given a design process aimed at making the two modes relatively balanced in strength, how heavily skewed are the actual usage statistics towards one mode? Does this change over the course of a metagame's evolution, or during a generation change?
  • In team-building, how easy is it to fit in risky sets versus consistent sets that function well in most contexts?
Click to expand...

Trade Offer.png
Name - Trade Offer.png
Description - This Pokemon excels at trading with an opposing Pokemon. While not skilled at sweeping or cleaning, this Pokemon is geared for and capable of getting a single KO and going down as its designed intent during a match.

Justification- Pokemon has added a surprisingly large number of options for elimination of your own resources, given the concept of the game, from stuff like Healing Wish or Memento to Destiny Bond or Final Gambit to Explosion and its cousins. However, rarely do Pokemon run these for its own sake, despite a wide unexplored area of game design. This concept would explore what trading intends to do in a game, when players intend to trade or simply happen upon an opportunity to do so, what makes trading tools usable on what Pokemon, and why can it be occasionally beneficial to eliminate your own Pokemon in a game about resource management.

Questions To Be Answered -

  • What tools exist for trading? Moves like the Justification examples exist, but what items, abilities, or other features/traits exist in the game that enable trading?
  • What trading tools are worth using in a competitive sense? What value is necessary to justify the elimination of one of your own resources? Must the value be guaranteed, or is a good enough value worth a gamble, and what gamble is good enough?
  • Why do some Pokemon run these trading tools? What causes IV to be able to run Destiny Bond, but Hoopa-U or Pecharunt rarely if ever do? Are the Explosion family of moves doomed to irreversible power creep, or are they powerful options waiting for the right opportunity?
  • Is trading something that requires opponent participation, or can it be pushed onto an opponent despite their objections? Depending on how much opponent participation is required, what does it mean when this Pokemon shows up in Team Preview?
  • While not trading specifically, what causes a team to benefit from a Pokemon there only to set up hazards, screens, terrain or other similar effect?
Click to expand...

When All You Have Is A Hammer
Name: When All You Have Is A Hammer

Description: This Pokemon is specifically built to effectively and viably utilize one move as its primary source of damage, with the other three moveslots acting as support for that damaging move.

Justification: The four moveslots available to a Pokemon are one of the most important parts of the series' core mechanics. Choosing which four moves to run is an incredibly important part of teambuilding, and figuring out when to use these moves forms the very basic of the strategy that makes up Pokemon's gameplay. Zeroing in on one of these moveslots and building the rest of the Pokemon around that one move would provide us with a unique challenge to overcome, but one that I think would be very fun to overcome!

Questions to be Answered:

  • What kinds of moves make up for a limited moveset? Are attacking moves the only way to go, or is it possible to viably use up one of our three remaining moveslots on a status move?
  • In terms of attacking moves, how much does the BP matter? What about the move's accuracy or any secondary effects it may have? How do these factors work together to allow a move to viably fit onto a Pokemon's moveset?
  • In terms of status moves, are there certain kinds of status moves that synergize with a limited moveset better? What factors allow for this synergy? How much of an impact should these status moves have on CAP37's role?
  • What types and type combinations benefit the most from a lack of move variety? What factors make these types able to rely on limited movesets without sacrificing viability?
  • Are there any Abilities that synergize well with a more limited moveset? What factors create the most synergy between an Ability and a moveset?
  • What other Pokemon in Smogon history have been able to focus on a single move as their main source of damage? What metagame factors have allowed these Pokemon to make their limited movesets work, and how can we accommodate for the lack of some of these metagame factors in the Gen 9 CAP/OU metagame? How can we use these previous examples to make CAP37 work?
Click to expand...

Skill Issue
Description:
Compared to the average Pokémon, this CAP will play substantially stronger when used by a skilled player - in other words, it will have a high Skill Ceiling.

Justification:
What new territory will your Concept Pokémon explore, why do you believe it's interesting, and how would it interact with the metagame?
In order to explore the idea of a skill ceiling, we would first need to actually understand what makes a player skilled - something that is fascinating, and completely unexplored by CAP to date. It will require an understanding of high skilled play, and thus also an understanding of low skilled play, especially in understanding what causes a difference between players. Maybe it's the fact that I'm a teacher by trade, but the idea of being able to isolate what weaknesses and false assumptions are prevalent in lower skilled players is something I would find incredibly interesting!

In terms of metagame impact, the hope is that the concept's focus on 'skill' results in a metagame where more games are won and loss on the merits of the player's ability, rather than on the basis of winning or losing a matchup rock-paper-scissors. It should also help us understand how we can balance the metagame moving forward - as one of the most common reasons for moves or mons being banned is that they remove skill from the equation entirely.

How does your concept motivate in-depth discussion at each stage of the process, and why do you believe the CAP Project community should discuss these topics?
The concept asks CAP to understand something that most people only understand by vibes - I think by definition it's already going to be in-depth discussion. The questions below dive into finding the right balance of tools to create something viable - I don't think the concept risks any particular stage being sidelined.

As for why? Understanding how Skill Ceilings and Skill at-large works fundamentally supports developing a metagame which is fun. There is little fun in a metagame where matchups are settled by the time team preview kicks in - nobody gets a satisfying victory, nobody gets to make those crazy plays and highs. Understanding skill in general also helps the process of helping new players get into the metagame, which improves the health of the CAP Community at large.

Questions To Be Answered:

  • What, objectively, is skill in competitive mons?
    • What factors make a player skilled? Is it metagame knowledge, 'reads', risk management, or some other factor/combination of factors?
    • Is a teambuilder a role that can be skilled in its own right? Is skill in the teambuilder different between a ladder setting and a tournament setting? Which skill should we aim to highlight?
  • What mons already represent the concept of having a high skill ceiling?
  • What traits increase the skill ceiling of a mon? Likewise, what traits reduce the skill gap (where a weaker player gets similar mileage out of a mon)
  • How do we avoid creating a 'mindless' mon without compromising viability?
    • Is it possible for a 'mindless' mon to still have skill-based elements?
  • What team archetypes generally have a high skill ceiling - and what archetypes don't? Should we aim at being used by any archetype in particular?
Click to expand...

Potential Man
Name: Potential Man

Description: This Pokemon demands that opponent actively plays around it potentially switching in, gaining value even without necessarily switching in.

Justification: This concept envisions a Pokemon that is capable of punishing the opponent in certain scenarios simply by switching in. Consequently, the opponent is forced to adapt their play patterns to avoid being punished, and this change in play patterns can be exploited by CAP37's teammates. For instance, a Magic Bounce user's presence can deny Rocks from being clicked, allowing Rock-weak teammates to switch in more aggressively. This concept explores the means of creating this potential threat, alongside how a Pokemon's teammates can capitalize off of this threat.

Questions:

  • How can a Pokemon create potential threat? How can we measure this level of threat, and how does this level change depending on the specifications of matchup and game state?
    • This threat can be created by specific move-ability interactions(Magic Bounce into hazards, Defiant into Defog), or can be done more abstractly through general pressure. What are the advantages and disadvantages of these approaches? Is there a combination of both aspects that can exist, or further means outside of these categories?
  • What does it mean to gain value off of potential threat? In more abstract cases, is it possible to measure how much value CAP37's potential threat creates?
  • Based on the play patterns this Pokemon influences, are there specific teamstyles and partners that capitalize best on this? How can CAP37 be designed to fit cleanly with these teamstyles and partners?
    • Previous "partner" concepts tend not to age well as former CAPs' partners fall out of relevancy. How can we avoid the same pitfalls with CAP37 while still emphasizing the importance of team synergy?
  • This concept describes a Pokemon that can extract value without switching in. When it does come in, what purpose should it serve? Specifically, should it only be strong when punishing opponent's play patterns, or should it still be able to gain consistent value upon switching in?
  • Typical examples of Pokemon with high potential tend to have an element of risk involved: A Magic Bounce user risks taking direct damage upon switchin, and strong wallbreakers tend to be frailer and slower. Is a risky playstyle necessary to balance such high potential, or are there more consistent means of doing so?
Click to expand...

Defensive Nullification
Name - Defensive Nullification

Description - This offensively-inclined pokemon is very difficult for a subset of common defensive pokemon to meaningfully impact due to typing, stat bias, and/or ability.

Justification- When designing a pokemon we're often focused on what offensive mons we can answer, as well, frankly that's our main focus when teambuilding. This CAP aims to ask, what if basically all of our focus was creating a mon that can easily and repeatedly switch into several defensive staples in the tier. What metagame impacts will occur if Equilibra, Arghonaut, Cresceidon, and Ting-Lu all were trivial entry points for a single pokemon, and what if they could do little beyond hazard control/removal once it was in.

Questions To Be Answered -

  • What are some common tools that defensive pokemon in the meta use to "make progress", and what counterplay do we have to those tools.
  • Does a pokemon that answers these tools feel constrained to a certain role? How much of our budget should be spent on "defensive aspects" in order to style on defensive mons.
  • What does it make sense to do once we're in on a defensive pokemon such as Ting-Lu, set-up, just hitting, utility, throwing out status?
  • Item manipulation is frankly a major part of defensive progress making, and many examples of this archetype are relatively item independent; how can we deal with this.
  • What would it take to create a mon that gets a free in on most defensive mons without being strictly defensive itself.
Click to expand...

Once again, your options are:

Perfect Conditions
Which Road Leads to Rome?
Trade Offer.png
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Skill Issue
Potential Man
Defensive Nullification

This poll will be open for 24 hours.
 
Skill Issue
Which Road Leads to Rome?
Trade Offer.png
Potential Man
Perfect Conditions
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Defensive Nullification
 
Which Road Leads to Rome?
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Perfect Conditions
Skill Issue
Trade Offer.png
Defensive Nullification
Potential Man
 
Last edited:
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Potential Man
Skill Issue
Defensive Nullification

Mod Edit: Corrected spelling on "Potential Man"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Perfect Conditions
Defensive Nullification
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Which Road Leads to Rome?
Trade Offer.png
Potential Man
Skill Issue
 
Perfect Conditions
Which Road Leads to Rome?
Skill Issue
Defensive Nullification
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Trade Offer.png
Potential Man
 
Last edited:
Potential Man
Defensive Nullification
Skill Issue
Perfect Conditions
Which Road Leads to Rome?
Trade Offer.png
When All You Have Is A Hammer

Uuuuuuuuuurrrrraaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!
 
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Defensive Nullification
Potential Man
Which Road Leads to Rome?
Perfect Conditions
Skill Issue
Trade Offer.png

Mod Edit: Corrected Spelling on "Defensive Nullification"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Defensive Nullification
When All You Have Is A Hammer
Trade Offer.png
Perfect Conditions
Potential Man
Skill Issue
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top