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After a couple good rounds of voting, we now have a concept for CAP 37 courtesy of kenn which is...Perfect Conditions!
Final Submission
Name: Perfect Conditions
Description: This CAP excels at using moves with a conditional activation or effect.
Justification: Moves with a conditional activation such as Sucker Punch and Destiny Bond have seen a wide range of success throughout competitive history as well as moves with a conditional effect such as Grassy Glide or Rising Voltage.
More on point examples would range from sets like SubPunch Breloom in DPP OU to Beak Blast Celesteela in SS STABmons. Even nowadays, you still see some of these moves with usage in almost every competitive tier such as Sucker Punch and Hex. Although as time has gone on, some of these moves themselves have also become less popular whether that is due to exclusivity (Beak Blast, Comeuppance, etc.) or just straight up unviability (Attract, Covet, Steel Roller, etc.). Some of these moves can have extremely powerful effects when procced which can allow for an interesting process on how to navigate the ability to achieve the success of running a move with these conditions attached to it.
Questions to be Answered:
- What's the difference between a move with a conditional activation and a move with a conditional effect? What are the similarities? Is one more viable than the other with regards to usage?
- What makes a move with a conditional effect work in a competitive scene like Hex or Thunderclap while others such as Thief falter?
- Why are moves with these conditional effects, outside of moves such as Sucker Punch and Hex, rarely seen? Is this just due to the nature of having to activate the condition or is it the lack of accessibility for Pokemon to utilize these moves?
- What needs to be achieved to successfully utilize the effects of these moves? How does one leverage these effects to apply pressure or put the team it is on at an advantage?
- What advantages are there to using these moves with conditional effects?
Explanation: DPP Breloom with Substitute + Focus Punch is a gleaming example of what a concept like this could achieve as it was able to leverage a wonderfully defensive ability in Poison Heal with its decent typing to hit hard and avoid being KO'd despite lackluster defensive stats. Other, more recent, examples include Pokemon such as Kingambit and Raging Bolt that utilize Sucker Punch and Thunderclap respectively to smack the opponent before they attack provided they are actually attacking. One of the examples that really intrigued me for this particular concept is the move Beak Blast. Landorus-T and Corviknight in STABmons utilize this move, only exclusive to Toucannon, to dissuade physical attackers for fear of being burned, but also have them deal with a powerful STAB move at the same time.
Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.
Now I'm going to hand it over to... the great and glorious earthflax so we can get things started!
Hey all! Sorry for the wait on this. We have our concept, now let's use it. Perfect Conditions is a concept that revolves around using conditional moves to their fullest potential, and because of this our first stage of discussion will necessarily be about the nature of conditional moves and their usage. Let's jump in!
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
How many moves do we want to build around? How should they interact with one another, if at all?
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? I want to see what we think about the effect that this concept has both on all of the stages of this process, as well as any constraints in role and place in the metagame. Does the necessity of having a conditional move preclude us from being a defensive 'mon, for example?
In what ways can we maximize CAP37's usage of its conditional move(s)?
Let’s tentatively say 48 hours for this first round of questions. Thank you all for bearing with me; I’m very happy to get this started!
Working list of all moves that can even vaguely be argued to be conditional. Mods feel free to edit/add in stuff.
Acrobatics
Aurora Veil
Avalanche
Baneful Bunker
Barb Barrage
Beak Blast
Blood Moon
Burning Bulwark
Counter
Curse
Double Shock
Dragon Energy
Electro Shot
Endeavor
Eruption
Expanding Force
Fake Out
First Impression
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Gigaton Hammer
Grav Apple
Heavy Slam
Hex
High Jump Kick
Hydro Steam
Infernal Parade
Knock Off
Lash Out
Last Resort
Last Respects
Low Kick
Mirror Coat
Order Up
Photon Geyser
Psyblade
Rage Fist
Shell Side Arm
Steel Roller
Sucker Punch
Supercell Slam
Thunderclap
Water Spout
Now for what the builder calls "usually useless" though given some of the moves above...
Assurance
Attract
Aura Wheel
Axe Kick
Beat Up
Belch
Brine
Burning Jealousy
Burn Up
Comeuppance
Copycat
Crush Grip
Dragon Cheer
Dream Eater
Electro Ball
False Swipe
Fell Stinger
Flail
Flying Press
Imprison
Magnetic Flux
Metal Burst
Misty Explosion
Payback
Pollen Puff
Power Trip
Retaliate
Rising Voltage
Rollout/Ice Ball
Solar Beam / Soiar Blade
Stuff Cheeks
Swallow / Spit Up
Temper Flare / Stomping Tantrum
Venoshock
Pledge Moves
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
viol & bass had gotten a list up, also posted by quizel, so I'm instead gonna talk a bit about abilities. With earthflax's example of Guts, I would consider it moreso a conditional ability more than an Ability that helps enable the moves mentioned - an entirely separate idea that I feel might detract from the concept's focus on conditional moves specifically.
2. What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
In a vacuum, the "good" conditional ones are those that we can trigger easily & consistently, or that the rewards outweigh the condition itself.
For the examples listed, I'll draw attention to Sucker Punch as a 'good' one. Sucker Punch's condition is that the opponent is about to attack or else it will fail. Unless you know they have a status move or the opponent's about to switch, the condition is thus almost active. In most of the time, you are clicking it so that you can pick off something that's close or already near fainting, or to get some chip damage before you yourself go down.
For an example of a 'bad' one, I'll go with Fell Stinger. Its condition is that you get a +3 Attack if you can KO the opponent with it. Sounds good, but you could also just have Swords Dance & a stronger Bug-type move to deal more damage overall. Not to mention, because it has terrible BP, you need to setup really specifically to get the boost. Thus, not only do the rewards are not worth it, the condition is so niche that it is extremely hard to fulfil.
One move would give us more focus, but it also makes us extremely predictable. Four on the other hand I fear we would be biting off too much we could chew. My suggestion is at best two. As for how they interact, well, if one of them can enable the other's condition (ex. Beak Blast + Infernal Parade, with the former's burn enabling the latter to score big damage), then that would be the most ideal, but it might not always be practical.
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? I want to see what we think about the effect that this concept has both on all of the stages of this process, as well as any constraints in role and place in the metagame. Does the necessity of having a conditional move preclude us from being a defensive 'mon, for example?
This question depends entirely on what move we choose. For example, say we choose something like Metal Burst, a slow defensive mon would thus be ideal, but if we instead choose, say, Electro Ball, we would thus want to be a speedy special attacker.
What counts as a conditional move?
My original list had "conditional activation" moves (move doesn't go off if the condition isn't met) and "conditional effect" moves (additional effect is guaranteed to happen if the condition is met, move goes off either way). I think "conditional base power" is a reasonable third category to add, which would include things like Eruption and Grass Knot. I think these should be fair game as well.
Percent-based secondary effects do not fit these criteria, and should not be included in my opinion.
One thing my list specifically excluded was "conditional moves that are consistent in practice" (example being maybe Acrobatics, which will have consistent power if built around due to our item choice, or Aurora Veil, which we're not building around if we don't also have Snow Warning and is therefore consistent in practice). I don't think we necessarily have to fully exclude this category of moves, and there's a lot of gray area there, but I personally feel like choosing many of these goes against the spirit of the concept. Part of the intrigue of this concept is finding a way to make a consistent mon out of inconsistent moves, and choosing a "consistent in practice" move is likely to trivialize that aspect of concept fulfillment.
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones?
Difficulty of activation and magnitude of effect. Moves or effects that are difficult to activate reliably (Fell Stinger for example) are going to be hard to build around if there's not a way to significantly lessen that difficulty via our build. Similarly, if the payoff just isn't that good, it's not going to be worth choosing. For conditional effects, you also have to consider the viability of the base move without the effect. This is part of what makes something like Beak Blast appealing; it gives status and a strong reliable flying move in one moveslot.
How many moves do we want to build around? How should they interact with one another, if at all?
Because there's some interesting interplay between different conditional moves, I think it'd be reasonable to choose either 1 or 2. Building around more than 2 would make things too complicated process-wise, but if they come in naturally as part of the build later on that's fine. I think it's important to explicitly make move choices in this stage so we have something to grab onto for later stages.
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us?
Choosing a move or moves in this stage (which we should) will constrain the typing stage to an extent. It depends on the moves chosen, and some moves will cry out for STAB more than others (we can look at Saharaja as proof that STAB may not be required), but it's something to be aware of. If not STAB, we will have to choose a typing that demands the chosen moves as coverage, which is somewhat constraining, particularly considering that some of these moves are not known for their reliability to begin with. I do think it'll be possible to create a slate with somewhat diverse options, but this is something to keep in mind. I don't believe other stages are particularly constrained in the same way.
In what ways can we maximize CAP37's usage of its conditional move(s)?
I actually think bulk goes a long way to mitigate the downsides of many conditional moves. Kingambit's a good mon to look at as an example of this. It gives you leeway in situations where the condition can't be met or you make an incorrect judgment. The ability can be a way of making the condition more easily met, as can the rest of our moveset.
The moves we want to look at are ones that have a consistent effect. Moves like Sucker Punch are good because the opponent often runs attacking moves. Moves like Assurance are a poor choice because boots are a prevalent item. Consistency is the king when it comes to determining what moves are worth investigating. The big question is how often can we get CAP 37 into a position to activate the move's conditional effect.
One. We should build around one move. If other conditional moves synergize with our chosen move, then we can talk about them in the Defining Moves stage. But the build should be about maximizing one of these conditional moves to the most devastating effect we can. "Predictability" is a completely bogus concern. You know Raging Bolt is running Thunder Clap, does that make the move any worse? Not really. Build around one conditional move, make it good, and from there you can discuss if any other ones synergize with it. The chosen conditional move is already likely to put a strain on the typing stage. There is no need to obliterate that conversation any further.
The vast majority of the conditional moves we have to choose from are attacks. This means that the typing stage is going to be somewhat constricted. This is not that bad of a thing, however, as we saw from Saharaja's process. If the effect is powerful enough / provides useful enough coverage, the typing stage can actually be pretty interesting with the added constraint. That is only true if there is only one chosen conditional move to build the process around; adding more conditional moves, even only one more, would make the typing stage almost defunct. I also don't think all the moves necessitate an offensive build. Beak Blast is a good example of a move that could even be better on a defensive build.
This is going to vary wildly from move to move. I think one consistent factor, however, will be in CAP 37's movepool. If you have a Beak Blast user, and you give it Brave Bird, I think it might just run Brave Bird most of the time. There are ways around this for some moves with ability (Unburden makes Acrobatics a bit better than Brave Bird sometimes), but in order to encourage usage of the chosen move, we will need to be careful and purposeful with what other moves we allow CAP 37 access to.
Hey all! Sorry for the wait on this. We have our concept, now let's use it. Perfect Conditions is a concept that revolves around using conditional moves to their fullest potential, and because of this our first stage of discussion will necessarily be about the nature of conditional moves and their usage. Let's jump in!
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
How many moves do we want to build around? How should they interact with one another, if at all?
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? I want to see what we think about the effect that this concept has both on all of the stages of this process, as well as any constraints in role and place in the metagame. Does the necessity of having a conditional move preclude us from being a defensive 'mon, for example?
In what ways can we maximize CAP37's usage of its conditional move(s)?
Let’s tentatively say 48 hours for this first round of questions. Thank you all for bearing with me; I’m very happy to get this started!
Focusing on 2 for this. Moves we want to try avoiding as a primary focus are those that already have wide distribution and don't get utulized, or those that don't actually have a payoff that justify building around. Good conditional moves are one that have some level of consistency, or a high level of control with a high payoff. Payback is very easy to trigger the bonus of and provides reliable power as a result. Moves like beakblast we cannot gurantee their effect every turn, but it is a reliable trigger with a high payoff.
behold, my stuff opinions. basically just took quziel's lists, sorted list 1, and then grabbed anything from list 2 that i thought was worth listing in the first category. cat 3 is kinda just my interpretation on what "conditional" means, and like, its kinda just my own personal takes yknow, like i put fake out and first impression in nwc primarily because like, i think its anti concept more than anything, but then i put the protect clones in not conditional bc i feel like yeah they're obviously dependent on if they just got used but like. cmon.
What counts as a conditional move?
See above! /h
My list is not as objective as viol's is, admittedly. I kinda just put the list together based on gut instinct, so I'm eager to throw parts of it out as we develop further into what we end up moving towards. I think a move's base power changing should be fair game - failure condition is obviously more understandable, see Sucker Punch or whatever, but I think something like Avalanche is conditional as well. I've been quite inclusive in my "narrowing" of quziel's list, only removing nine moves of the non-"usually useless" moves, and even then I probably misplaced Shell Side Arm and Steel Roller.
I don't think such a wide range is particularly helpful, though, which leads me to...
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones?
Admittedly, my list isn't actually "good" vs "bad", but rather "worth considering" vs "not worth considering". I think the difference here is worth paying attention to, because stuff like Gigaton Hammer or Blood Moon are obviously good moves, and arguably, good conditional moves. I just think that they fit this CAP concept poorly personally. That being said, I don't think I've listed something bad as worth considering. But I also recognize that I play outside the standard zone of theory, where stuff like Metal Burst and Avalanche are viable candidates for consideration despite being considered pretty bad moves in standard competitive singles orthodoxy. S/o 1v1 and all that, I suppose.
I think for me what differentiates the line is the investment. Sucker Punch works very well because even when it fails, it's still accomplished something. By definition, your Pokemon isn't taking damage from a move if Sucker Punch has failed. Blood Moon is a good investment, because sure next turn you can't use it, but the turn you did you did plenty of damage under normal conditions. Beak Blast is not a good investment, because if the conditional doesn't pay off, you're sorta left with a reasonable but not incredible Flying-type attack at the cost of never moving first. And the condition paying off is a burn, which is like, fine but not incredible.
How many moves do we want to build around? How should they interact with one another, if at all?
I would like to see us have more than one move. I haven't really thought more on that second part, but I think having one conditional move is kinda rough, since I'd think if I was facing CAP37 that I'd want to avoid activating that condition as much as possible, yknow? But if it's got two or more, then it can become much harder to. Sure, you've gotta attack the Kingambit eventually even though you know it carries Sucker Punch, but you can try to navigate to a 'mon who can take that hit relatively easy. But if Kingambit also has, say, Stakeout as an ability (IK it's not a move, but it's for the example), then suddenly switching out into a souped up Kowtow Cleave can be its own nightmare.
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us?
I think the constraint is going to depend on the move(s) selected. A lot of the moves I have in my worth considering list are conditional in a sense that requires some level of building for them - the "get hit, hit harder" moves obviously lean defensive, but the "HP = BP" moves lean very much in the other direction. We'll figure out what those conditions are once we reach a stage after the move selection, but as a general rule most conditional moves are going to come with their own individual constraints, but I think generalizing the constraint is not going to be possible for a large enough pool of the conditional moves.
In what ways can we maximize CAP37's usage of its conditional move(s)?
It probably can't be able to effectively run another strategy. We're in the generation of everyone having base 80 STAB on any type they want, so something like Hex or Barb Barrage needs to have a good enough upside and/or easy enough to activate conditional that we're not competing with the equivalent of auto-attacking in a MOBA.
Gonna mostly agree on dex; we should base typing and ability discussion around "how does this interact with 1 worthwhile conditional option". Building around Poltergeist is easy, building a mon that runs Poltergeist, Water Spout and Counter is not. We likely still want to have additional conditional options on our moveset, and for the initial release we absolutely should try to set stuff up such that we run 2+ conditional moves, but as long as we run at least one conditional option the concept is fulfilled.
A major concern though is how do we deal with the fact that there's some potentially interesting conditional options that are ability dependent; Earthquake is suddenly a conditional move if our ability is Merciless for example. These may not get chosen if we choose a "conditional move" early; if we choose Focus Punch at typing then are we ever running Merciless/Unburden? At the same time, if we run Ability before Typing to accommodate for this are we biasing ourselves towards a "conditional ability". I admit I would prefer to just sidestep this and ban conditional abilities otherwise we get into some difficult water.
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
A conditional move is a move that has a specific requirement in order to obtain the user’s desired effect. Hard Press and Reversal I believe would fall under this umbrella as, in order to achieve the desired effect of more damage, there is a strict requirement (being a specific user/opponent HP threshold). As for the second part of this question, it really depends on the ability itself and why we choose it. IMO Guts can be pro-concept if we want to lean into Facade specifically, but if it’s just to boost Physical attacks in a vacuum, that’s more about the ability rather than the moves. I think some ability paths will encourage the usage of very specific moves (such as Guts with Facade), but thankfully the standard process protocol does fit that objective.
While a bit of a stretch, I will also note that this definition could also extend to immunities, depending on the utility of a move. For example, a move like Rapid Spin or Mortal Spin are technically conditional because Ghost- and Steel-type Pokemon can take advantage of the moves for a switch-in opportunity and block the desired effect of removing hazards. So, it sort of depends on what we define as “conditional”, whether that’s in actual function or in its fundamentals (like a move’s typing and how it interfaces with immunities). I think for the most part we’re wanting to look into finding ways to optimize a desired effect’s activation, though, so perhaps this is a line too far. Either way I think this is a good parameter to set.
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
A good conditional move is one that 1: gives a good reward for meeting the condition, 2: is feasible to meet the conditions for, and 3: has low consequence in not meeting the condition.
Taking Sucker Punch for example: a strong priority attack is extremely good, direct attacks are integral for making progress more often than not (so Sucker Punch doesn’t require much to have its condition met), and failing the attack has generally low consequence unless the opponent uses Encore, status, or Substitute since failing usually means no progress is made against the Pokemon directly. If we take a move like Hex, having a consequence-free Ghost-type Draco Meteor is a great reward, status is often integral to making progress anyway (and is easy to spread across 6 team members), and not meeting the condition doesn’t change the fact you still have a 65 BP Ghost-type move that usually has a STAB boost which lets it at least do something. On the contrary, a move like Bide (very extreme example I know) is pretty terrible on all accounts. For one, you lose 2 turns to distribute damage so the returned damage isn’t really going to make much of a difference, and its extreme exploitability makes it both infeasible to get a good reward and dishes high consequence in failing.
I also wish to note that the way each conditional move fills these conditions is not just in a vacuum, but also scales based on the Pokemon using them. Something like Kingambit is an amazing user of Sucker Punch due to its Dark-type, high Attack-stat, Supreme Overlord, and Swords Dance, but a more defensive Pokemon is going to suffer from diminishing returns. I think we can easily make weaker conditional moves work, but we need to gauge how they fit these criteria in a vacuum and how we can either mitigate their consequences within our build or leverage their strengths to good effect.
It really depends on the moves we decide on, but imo I think some level of interactivity is vital for a feasible CAP within this concept. In some cases the moves are so intensely powerful that they don’t need additional supplementation (like Sucker Punch), but others like Hex do need some additional help. I will note that these moves do also have to have some broader or more lenient utility in order to activate their desired effects or shore off one another’s inconsistency, but I think that’s an element of this concept that needs to be considered anyway.
As such, I would also like to note that some broadly applicable moves such as Knock Off or U-turn would also make a big difference for making a CAP that uses conditional moves. If we operate on multiple conditional moves that are rather polarized in the pre vs post-condition strength we can end up having a very janky and gimmicky CAP, which isn’t particularly bad design but it does sacrifice viability rather significantly. A Pokemon that executes conditional moves well needs to also be able to have moves that are fundamentally good to function. Per set, I think 2 (possibly 3 if we use a broadly applicable conditional move like Sucker Punch) conditional moves is a decent baseline.
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? I want to see what we think about the effect that this concept has both on all of the stages of this process, as well as any constraints in role and place in the metagame. Does the necessity of having a conditional move preclude us from being a defensive 'mon, for example?
Depending on the moves we want to build around, there are strains pretty much everywhere when optimizing the risk vs reward of using said moves. I think there will be the most significant strain in typing, though, since we will likely need both a good defensive typing and a typing that grants STAB to our desired conditional moves/has a STAB that complements it.
As I mentioned earlier, I think we need our conditional move(s) to in some way meet the above criteria I mentioned and, to some extent, consider a build where their consequences are either mitigated or their strengths are leveraged. Good move synergy and broadly applicable moves to supplement the Pokemon when the condition is not yet met also would help a lot.
What counts as a conditional move? I feel this question has been thoroughly answered by everyone before me. I also have my bias of a few moves on the list, but I believe the easiest way to pin point anything with a condition is the word "if". For example Beak Blast: IF they enemy attacks while you charge they get burned. or Obstruct: IF they make contact they get -2 Def
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? IMO the best designation is a move that requires the least amount of hoops to be jumped through. Probably the most direct would be if they attack the move works or has a bonus
How many moves do we want to build around? How should they interact with one another, if at all? f*** it do em all. Ideally we build around more than just 1. If there is already a hoop to jump through to make the concept work you want there to be options to potentially lay a trap and make it so no matter what hoop gets jumped through there is a pay off. Sticking with the Beak Blast example, you want them to attack to get the burn pay off. But if it was coupled with an ability like Stakeout it creates a basically no win scenario. If the mon also had a move like, lets say Temper Flare it creates another trap..."attack and risk a burn or boost and risk the damage". The same trap gets laid if the 37 has Snatch. They risk you stealing their move vs getting Beak Blasted
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? The only constraints I see are self imposed lol
In what ways can we maximize CAP37's usage of its conditional move(s)? IMO the way I presented it in question 3 is how we do it. pick at least 2 moves that can set a trap and layer those with an ability that is also conditional. In almost every way I see this as a "punisher" more than any other role
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
In my opinion, there are three main categories that conditional moves can fall under: moves that fail if not executed under a certain condition (examples: Counter/Mirror Coat, Focus Punch, First Impression), moves whose base power changes in certain circumstances (examples: Hex, Stomping Tantrum/Temper Flare, Avalanche), or moves that gain a secondary effect in certain circumstances (Beak Blast, Baneful Bunker,Burning Bulwark, Silk Trap). Of course there are probably more, smaller categories, but I think these three are the most viable and the routes we should take.
Aside from moves that are useless for CAP because they are doubles focused moves (rip After You and Wide Guard), I think the worst conditional moves for us would be moves whose conditions will rarely, if ever activate or have good usage. A good example of this is Twister, which has the conditional effects of having its power doubled + always hitting if the opponent is in the semi-invulnerable turn of Fly. However, the only Pokemon in SV OU that has been able to viably run Fly in the past, Landorus-T, doesn't run Fly any more thanks to the existence of Tera Blast giving it a more reliable Flying type STAB, or just not wanting to run Flying type STAB in the first place. This move would never see its conditional effect activate at any point in time and aside from these niche interactions is one of the worst attacking Dragon type moves out there, so it's not worth picking.
I would say that the maximum number of moves that we should build around should be two. We've spent plenty of time in the wait between concept assessment being posted and concept assessment opening discussing combinations of two of these moves over of the CAP Discord, which have been incredibly intriguing. My main issue, though, is that many of these combinations also seem to hinge on our type combination, which does feel kinda poll-jumpy. Therefore, I'd like to suggest a proposal:
1) Run an early defining moves stage to discuss specific moves in more depth (a la what we did with chuggalong's item)
2) Set up a poll for one defining conditional move that we'll primarily focus on building the CAP around
3) Do a concept assessment part 2 to discuss our defining conditional move
4) Move into typing discussion/selection, where people can suggest a secondary conditional move to pair the primary conditional move with if need be
I know this might be complicated, but considering the discussion I've seen in the Discord, I think it's important we pick at least one move now to prevent complications in future stages of the process.
Working list of all moves that can even vaguely be argued to be conditional. Mods feel free to edit/add in stuff.
Acrobatics
Aurora Veil
Avalanche
Baneful Bunker
Barb Barrage
Beak Blast
Blood Moon
Burning Bulwark
Counter
Curse
Double Shock
Dragon Energy
Electro Shot
Endeavor
Eruption
Expanding Force
Fake Out
First Impression
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Gigaton Hammer
Grav Apple
Heavy Slam
Hex
High Jump Kick
Hydro Steam
Infernal Parade
Knock Off
Lash Out
Last Resort
Last Respects
Low Kick
Mirror Coat
Order Up
Photon Geyser
Psyblade
Rage Fist
Shell Side Arm
Steel Roller
Sucker Punch
Supercell Slam
Thunderclap
Water Spout
Now for what the builder calls "usually useless" though given some of the moves above...
Assurance
Attract
Aura Wheel
Axe Kick
Beat Up
Belch
Brine
Burning Jealousy
Burn Up
Comeuppance
Copycat
Crush Grip
Dragon Cheer
Dream Eater
Electro Ball
False Swipe
Fell Stinger
Flail
Flying Press
Imprison
Magnetic Flux
Metal Burst
Misty Explosion
Payback
Pollen Puff
Power Trip
Retaliate
Rising Voltage
Rollout/Ice Ball
Solar Beam / Soiar Blade
Stuff Cheeks
Swallow / Spit Up
Temper Flare / Stomping Tantrum
Venoshock
Pledge Moves
[*]What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
In my opinion, there are three main categories that conditional moves can fall under: moves that fail if not executed under a certain condition (examples: Counter/Mirror Coat, Focus Punch, First Impression), moves whose base power changes in certain circumstances (examples: Hex, Stomping Tantrum/Temper Flare, Avalanche), or moves that gain a secondary effect in certain circumstances (Beak Blast, Baneful Bunker,Burning Bulwark, Silk Trap). Of course there are probably more, smaller categories, but I think these three are the most viable and the routes we should take.
Aside from moves that are useless for CAP because they are doubles focused moves (rip After You and Wide Guard), I think the worst conditional moves for us would be moves whose conditions will rarely, if ever activate or have good usage. A good example of this is Twister, which has the conditional effects of having its power doubled + always hitting if the opponent is in the semi-invulnerable turn of Fly. However, the only Pokemon in SV OU that has been able to viably run Fly in the past, Landorus-T, doesn't run Fly any more thanks to the existence of Tera Blast giving it a more reliable Flying type STAB, or just not wanting to run Flying type STAB in the first place. This move would never see its conditional effect activate at any point in time and aside from these niche interactions is one of the worst attacking Dragon type moves out there, so it's not worth picking.
I think StarFalcon did a good job here categorising the types of moves that are pro-concept, so I will not rehash what he has said.
He raised a good example of how a move like Twister is bad for the concept due to low occurrence rate. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I think near-guaranteed occurrence rate is also anti-concept. And with that, I’m talking about Guts and by extension Facade.
Simply put, Guts is not conditional beyond the teambuilder. The moment you put a status orb on your guy, the rest of the kit becomes unconditional. Gut is no more conditional than running a pinch berry on a Gluttony mon, or moves with secondary effects on a Sheer Force mon.
The only time I can see Guts from being pro-concept is if the mon is naturally immune to Burn/Poison, and you have to find a way to lose one of your typings for you to be able to do status orb + Guts, but obviously there's a million ways why that's dumb.
Hey all! Sorry for the wait on this. We have our concept, now let's use it. Perfect Conditions is a concept that revolves around using conditional moves to their fullest potential, and because of this our first stage of discussion will necessarily be about the nature of conditional moves and their usage. Let's jump in!
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
How many moves do we want to build around? How should they interact with one another, if at all?
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? I want to see what we think about the effect that this concept has both on all of the stages of this process, as well as any constraints in role and place in the metagame. Does the necessity of having a conditional move preclude us from being a defensive 'mon, for example?
In what ways can we maximize CAP37's usage of its conditional move(s)?
Let’s tentatively say 48 hours for this first round of questions. Thank you all for bearing with me; I’m very happy to get this started!
One aspect that hasn't quite been touched on that seems notable for the process is opportunity costs. To their credit, a few have mentioned the reliability of conditional moves. That is a related topic. However, we should also consider what the moves are doing at base, separate from any conditional effect, and the inherent risk in using the move.
To give some examples, Beak Blast seems a popular candidate. At base it's a 100 BP Flying move. Even accounting for the negative priority, few Pokemon will regret clicking it even if the conditional effect fails. Other candidates, like the Protect clones or Knock Off similarly have little downside. The conditionall effect is simply a bonus on top of an already good move.
There are other candidates that have variable opportunity cost. Yes, First Impression is conditional depending on the turn used, but, in its optimal use case, it has very little downside. Choice Items and moves like Encore can exacerbate these costs, but can easily be accounted for. Moves like Hex similarly have little opportunity cost when used in optimal conditions and arguably should and often will not be used outside of them.
That leaves moves with very high opportunity costs. These are not necessarily bad moves, but they have tremendous downsides if used incorrectly. Focus Punch and Sucker Punch, for instance, risk whiffing and allowing your opponent a free turn. These candidates will require much more forethought in their application.
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
In the most general sense this includes all moves which have an effect of changing properties based on conditions outside of the moves effect that aren’t a result of rng.
This means all moves with an effect of „if…, this attack…“ are conditional moves.
I’m unsure if percentage or stat based moves like Eruption, Gyro Ball, Low Kick, Seismic Toss or Strength Sap fall under this description or not, since while
The conditions that can trigger these changes include, Weather, Terrain, Typing, Base Stats (Speed, Weight, remaining HP), Status (Your own and the opponents), Items both yours and your opponent’s as well as holding none), Opponents actions such as Attacks, Taking a KO or Switching (RIP pursuit and fisheous rend) and some more obscure options.
I think Quzs list is pretty comprehensive in showing what moves are conditional (imo it’s missing Facade and Poltergeist)
List I made
Blizzard
Low Kick
Counter
Seismic Toss
Growth
Solar Beam
Thunder
Night Shade
High Jump Kick
Dream Eater
Curse
Flail
Reversal
Attract
Pain Split
Morning Sun
Sythesis
Moonlight
Mirror Coat
Beat Up
Fake Out
Spit Up
Swallow
Facade
Focus Punch
Charge
Magic Coat
Knock Off
Endeavor
Eruption
Weather Ball
Water Spout
Gyro Ball
Brine
Feint
Pluck
Metal Burst
Payback
Assurance
Fling
Copycat
Punishment
Last Resort
Sucker Punch
Avalanche
Defog
Grass Knot
Judgement
Bug Bite
Crush Grip
Heavy Slam
Electro Ball
Stored Power
Hex
Acrobatics
Retaliate
Heat Crash
Hurricane
Belch
Fell Stinger
Shore Up
First Imoression
Strength Sap
Solar Blade
Power Trip
Burn Up
Beak. blast
Aurora veil
She’ll Trap
Stomping Tantrum
Photon Geyeser
Grav apple
Expanding Force
Steel Roller
She’ll Side Arm
Misty Wxplosion
Grassy Glide
Rising Voltage
Burning Jealousy
Lash Out
Poltergeist
Dragon Energy
Barb barrage
Infernal Parade
Tera Blast
Last Respects
Slat Cure
Hydro Steam
Collision Course
Electro Drift
Rage Fist
Double Shock
Comeuppance
Electro Shot
Thunderclap
Hard Press
Temper Fkare
Supercell Slam
Upper Hand
(Protect Moves)
Given how many moves this list already contains I believe we shouldn’t be looking at abilities at this stage, even if move ability interactions can have an impact on the concept.
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones?
Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
There are big differences in how easy it is to meet a condition and how harsh the penalty is if you don’t meet that condition.
For some moves the condition is basically always active and the penalty is relatively unimpactful, while for others it’s very rare and the penalty is very noticeable.
For example, Knock off even though being a conditional move is one of the most commonly used moves in competitive because the condition that needs to be met for it to be at full power is going to be active 99% of the time at the start of the game and even if the condition isn’t met the move still hits and doesn’t fail. Compare this to Poltergeist, which has the same condition, but instead of a slight bp nerf it will fail if the condition isn’t met. It’s still relatively easy to use it without failing it, but I still consider it „worse“ than Knock off.
Other moves like Acrobatics, Double Shock, Fling or Facade have conditions that are less common but which you are in almost full control to trigger yourself. Still there’s the same difference in quality between them as above. Where Acrobatics and Facade are only nerfed in power Fling and Double Shock will fail if their condition isn’t met.
Weather and Terrain dependent moves are less easy to have control over bc the opponent can take more influence on them but it is possible to build around these conditions to trigger the activation.
Bad ones are conditions that are either very rare or unreliable and hard to control or moves where the pay off isn’t large enough to risk not meeting the condition.
In what ways can we maximize CAP37's usage of its conditional move(s)
Given the variety of power, reliability and achievability, I think this question is very important.
I think there’s a sweet spot between moves not being reliable enough so meeting the condition actually feels like a tangible benefit (compared to those where meeting the condition is easily achieved in the builder or even during the process) and being so unreliable or hard to achieve that the benefit isn’t worth the risk.
I think moves with conditions that are very easy to meet or control like opponent having item, item selection, terrain or weather, or anything we can „build“ during the process like weight, HP stat, typing etc will lead to a relatively shallow exploration of the concept.
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal?
For me, a conditional move is any move that has a single "if-then statement" in it. For example, with Hex: If the Target has a status effect, then the move does double damage. Imo, It should be fairly limited in how many "if-thens" is in the move. This is why I feel like moves with variable base power (Hard Press or Grass Knot) shouldn't be included for the most part. While they do have a condition where they would be considered "most" optimal, they don't really have to be in that condition to be usable, and they often require conditions too far outside of the users control in order to make them optimal. I'd say the biggest exceptions to this are Reversal and Water Spout/Eruption, which allow the right amount of control to the player in order to make their perfect conditions something to be played around.
It probably goes without saying, but I also feel like Knock Off shouldn't be included. Not because it doesn't fit the criteria, but because items are almost always present in competitive, making its "perfect conditions" something it doesn't need to work for 99.999% of the time.
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
Often, the most common trend in bad conditional moves is unreliability/specificity. A move that requires extremely specific conditions in order to activate, or a move that can only be activated once and then fails requires an extremely strong benefit in order to justify, most of which don't. Retaliate, for example, requires you to use the move immediately after a teammate has fainted, becoming a 140 power move for one turn and a measly 70 power at any other time. Compare that to Facade, which hits the same 140 power far more reliably thanks to its condition being one that's more reasonable to achieve. This specificity can also come in the form of requiring certain traits from a pokemon in order to get its full potential. Mirror Coat, for example, is mostly only worth using on mons like Alomomola, where High HP and low Special Defense allow the move to deal the maximum amount of damage back, and Regenerator means the pokemon can use the move more than once per battle.
I'll preface this by saying that I have glanced at others' answers but I may repeat the sentiment of others so I am sorry if that happens but just wanted to get my thoughts on paper so let's get started!
What counts as a conditional move? A move like Sucker Punch or Hex is pretty obviously a conditional move, but what about, for example, Hard Press or Reversal? Fling or Belch (which revolve around item usage)? Is an ability like Guts pro-concept, seeing as once its condition is met, Physical attacks have their power boosted?
I am in full agreement with Explosion Badger that any conditional move is one that has an "if-then" statement. That being said, there are definitely varying degrees on that statement as to how one can achieve that condition. As for the moves mentioned in the question, Sucker Punch can achieve its condition by the opponent attacking while Hex achieves doubled base power by hitting a statused opponent. I personally believe those fall in the purview of what we wanna classify as a conditional move whereas a move with "conditional" BP such as Hard Press wouldn't. Same goes for Fling or Belch as technically they can be used by every mon as the condition has to deal with holding an item rather than the move so it feels not in the spirit of succeeding with this concept. I do think there is an argument to be made for Eruption/Water Spout/clones and possibly Reversal, but as the concept submitter, I can say that I didn't have them in mind when I originally submitted; however, I am not opposed to them being included on a theoretical master list of conditional moves. As for any abilities, I would be more inclined to utilize the ability stage (when we get there) as more of a foundation for achieving the condition of a move rather than applying a condition like Guts would to physical attacks.
What differentiates "good" conditional moves from "bad" ones? Obviously, there are some conditional moves that see a great deal of use in competitive contexts, but there are plenty which do not. Are there any common themes?
I would say the biggest difference for good vs. bad conditional moves is strictly based on how easy the condition is to achieve. Something like the conditions for Sucker Punch and Hex can be achieved by forcing via Taunt or predicting the opponent to attack, while also providing a form of priority, for the former or applying status for the latter both of which are usually common in any competitive scenario. However, things like Attract or Steel Roller have a harder time because they only work if you find an opportunity to face an opposing gender or if a terrain is active otherwise these moves fail. Now while Sucker Punch can fail, it is a lot more common for an opposing Pokemon to attack than it is for them to be the opposite gender or for their to be a terrain just to lose it after the use of Steel Roller. This means there is less risk in running those moves and therefore allows something that may still fail to be worth running. Basically, the argument is the bigger the risk, the less likely they are to be ran consistently.
I think the ideal scenario is 2 moves that either interact extremely well together by enabling one or the other or 1 move that can be provided opportunities from the rest of CAP 37's toolkit whether that be ability, stats, or the rest of its moveset.
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? I want to see what we think about the effect that this concept has both on all of the stages of this process, as well as any constraints in role and place in the metagame. Does the necessity of having a conditional move preclude us from being a defensive 'mon, for example?
I don't think there are really that many constraints as the concept stands right now beyond maybe movepool. For example, if Beak Blast is chosen as the premier conditional move for CAP 37 then Brave Bird may be deemed "anti-concept" as CAP 37 may be more inclined to run it over Beak Blast; however, with the right ability or stats it may have both and still run Beak Blast just because of how everything comes together as a whole. This question's answer will be heavily dependent on what the conditional move/s is/are as to how it could pigeonhole the process, but as it stands I think there are multiple ways to allow a build of any variety whether that be an offensive or defensive mon.
The easiest way will be through discussing what moves the community sees as the "easiest" to activate. Many users both here and in CAPcord have discussed a combo like Temper Flare/Stomping Tantrum + Barb Barrage as you can either apply pressure by having the opponent be riddled with poison or hit by a 120 BP move that hits those immune to the status (Steel and Poison types respectively). I truly think the way to maximize it is have a condition that is easy to activate whether it gains that easy activation through the move's synergy with CAP 37's toolkit or whether the moveset lines it up for a perfect KO.
Are there any constraints that this concept places on us? I want to see what we think about the effect that this concept has both on all of the stages of this process, as well as any constraints in role and place in the metagame. Does the necessity of having a conditional move preclude us from being a defensive 'mon, for example?
Truthfully, I think its less that this concept places restraints on us, and more that we need to put restraints on it. A lot of good conditional moves not only gain power when conditions are met, but either provide utility when used or encourage use of other utility moves throughout the game. Knock Off's condition for power and utility is so easy to achieve that nearly every role has an excuse to use it. Hex lessens defensive roles passivity, while allowing offensive roles to use status as a setup for the endgame. There are plenty of conditional moves that lean hard into specific roles as well. Weather Ball and Expanding Force pack a wallop offensively, while options such as Shore Up and Synthesis can offer huge defensive merits if abused. Aurora Veil can set up endgame sweeps, Sucker Punch and First Impression can threaten offense back, etc.
