CAP 37 - Part 7 - Defining Moves

[kenn]

CAP 37 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop a list of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves from the "Choose At Least One" or "Optional" lists will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists, as needed:

1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move / these moves.
2. Choose At Least One: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for at least one of these moves.
3. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use these moves or not.

Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:

• Boosting Moves
• Recovery Moves
• High Base-Power Moves
• Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazards, etc.)

Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities (outside of those already voted for by the community).

With that, I hand this over to dex and expect ample discussion to be done!

 

[dex]

Hello! CAP 37 is coming into shape. However, our conversation about role and checks has still left a lot for us to define, and what's more defining than Defining Moves? Nothing, that's what. Let's get to it.

1. CAP 37’s typing, Dark/Flying, along with the desire to run Beak Blast, semi-locks its moveset. We essentially have two slots to work with. What should be CAP 37’s focus for its remaining move slots? Some categories I’d like to see discussion about are Recovery, Utility, Setup, Coverage, and Priority. Reminder that discussion of specific moves or coverage types is not open yet.
2. I’m going to immediately break my own rule here and pointedly ask about the move on everyone’s mind: Knock Off. There’s been a lot of dancing around the topic of this move so far this process, and for good reason. It’s a powerful tool, especially on a presumably physical Dark-type. My questions are this: should Knock Off be a defining/required move for CAP 37? How does Knock Off complement Beak Blast? Are there any concerns worth our time with the move?

 

[quziel]

I'm of the opinion that Beak Blast / Dark STAB (Knock Off is very good) / Recovery (Roost or Recover depending on how much we hate Equilibra) is a very set 3 slots, and then the 4th slot is cool as effectively a tech slot that we can adjust depending on what our team needs.

Hazards are extremely effective on us because we can hard swap in on Spin, reset hazards, and then basically dare our opponent to set them again. We have a positive typing matchup against several common spinners in the format, and this kinda dynamic where your setter is just really good at resetting hazards is a proven good.

Taunt is a universally assumed move, and provides major value here. Knock Off is sorta necessary to make it really good, but the ability to just Knock Garg, and then play 50/50s with it every subsequent switchin is a major upgrade to our ability to face it, and takes it from a hard loss to a mon that we're definitely not favored vs, but at the same time don't lose to nearly as hard. For this reason I'm in favor of listing Knock Off as a defining move, and frankly would debate listing it as a required move due to how strongly it cripples most Beak Blast checks.

I'm not in favor of setup on this mon. Opportunist already provides a bit of setup to us, and while yeah, it encourages an opponent to hit us now in order to limit our future strength, it just feels weird. Beak Blast being negative priority also just makes us incredibly weird to both play with and against in a hypothetical situation where we get boosting.

Coverage is weird. Taunt swings basically the same matchups that coverage does barring specific 4x hits aka Gliscor and Kingambit, two mons that don't really care too much about our main combo, though the latter has some truly wacky interactions with Beak Blast / Opportunist.

 

[spoo]

I think Knock Off should be an optional move - I’m usually in favor of giving stat submitters more freedom rather than less. Knock is definitely nice in conjunction with Beak Blast, given that some of Beak Blast’s best counterplay is simply switching out & Knock is good at punishing switches, but I don’t believe Knock Off is mandatory for our concept or viability. There are other Dark STABs that could easily take its place (some being more interesting than others).

Recovery is good for us, and is honestly something I’d make required. The difference between spreads with and without Knock Off is probably just a matter of higher stat limits, but the difference between spreads with and without recovery is much more drastic. The difference is not just in how recovery affects CAP 37’s strength, but how it affects its playstyle and gameplan. Recovery-less CAP37 will play fundamentally differently than routes that do include it, and I worry it would make the stat stages too unfocused if we left the door open to allowing both paths.

 

[N-Manifold]

Beak Blast is the obvious required move, and I'm of the opinion that it is the only required move here. I strongly believe that recovery should most definitely be optional for now, with BSR penalties for its inclusion. I understand that this would bifurcate the stats stage to some degree, as the inclusion or exclusion of roost (I assume it would be roost) would massively shift the overall shape and size of a stat spread. Perhaps it would be prudent to at least put it up to a poll, but I do think that this is unnecessary; a stats stage where we have multiple different options always appeals to me so long as it isn't too all over the place.

Stealth rock should also be optional. I feel that the zeitgeist is on the opposite side here, and fear that rocks will be nixed too early at this point. I think so long as it's included or excluded in a stat spread it will be fine, there is room for variety and debate in the stats stage here also. I think that cap37 should be allowed at most one set of hazards, but I don't feel strongly about this.

Strong dark coverage is definitely the interesting question here. The way I see it, we can either give it crunch/lariat/chop, or we can give it knock, but I don't think it makes much sense to leave this for the stats phase. I personally lean towards giving it knock, I fear this guy not having much to do a little bit and most dark types get knock anyway, but if we don't want it to have knock that should be decided now. The other dark type physical moves that are not utter garbage (e.g. payback or jaw lock) are mostly not amazing for us.

To finish off, I'm curious what kind of coverage people think this should get. In terms of flipping matchups, it really only would want ice or fighting coverage for glisc and gambit. I think it would be fine not getting any notable coverage moves to be honest. The only thing I would be interested in is ground coverage, mostly for tran and to a much lesser extent raging bolt, giving it ice punch or something feels uninspired.

 

[chartung17]

Knock Off should be a defining move; I would put it at optional, but I don't have any strong objections to making it required.

Recovery should be required. Without recovery, it's much harder to justify clicking Beak Blast (as opposed to switching out) when the opponent is clicking Knock Off.

Between Opportunist and the threat of Beak Blast burns, I think we're likely to force a lot of switches; as such, it might be good to have a utility move that can make progress regardless of what the opponent switches to, such as hazards, hazard removal, or pivoting.

If we want coverage rather than utility in the last slot, Ground seems like a good choice. Dark/Flying is pretty good coverage, but there are a few mons that resist both (including three on the CAP VR, namely Kingambit, Tyranitar, and Tinkaton), and all of them are weak to Ground.

 

[Rysachi]

Don't want to ramble on too much with what's already been covered as I'm pretty much in full agreement with Quiz and Chartung that Knock Off and Recover/Roost should be defining or required alongside Taunt being a universal move.

The main thing I do want to bring up as the coverage options as there's two typings that feel like good options that both cover a good handful of mons we currently struggle against.

The first one being ground coverage already mentioned by Chartung for the likes of Garganacl, Tinkaton and Kingambit.

The other coverage option if we want to tap into Opportunist slightly more, especially if we can target Bulk Up targets and still remains useful for the mentioned above as well as Equilibra, is Body Press. This also allows us to possibly focus on the defensive sides of Beak Blast which we can pretty much guarantee it being defining move.

As for hazards, I do believe we should make Stealth Rocks or Spikes optional as they do help round off CAP 37's set if we do want to skip out on giving it coverage. Toxic Spikes is completely anti-synergy and should be avoided.

Another optional I do want to throw out for this mon that saw only small conversation that would fit this really well without technically needing to give the mon hazards strictly is Ceaseless Edge. It is a weaker STAB that would not fully take the focus away from Beak Blast whilst putting on consistent pressure of punishing switches.

 

[Perturbo]

I think quziel's first post perfectly sums up almost everything I wanted to add to this stage. I agree that Roost (I assume) should be mandatory on this pokemon, and heavily in favor of listing Knock Off as a defining move. I'd also like to express support for hazards on CAP 37, whether that be Stealth Rock or Spikes.

I believe Sucker Punch has not been mentioned yet? I'm not in favor of this move, as I think it would dilute CAP 37's identity quite a bit, but I believe it should still be discussed.

 

[staygexxed]

I Agree with most of what has already been said here. I think recovery should be a required move to fit the role that cap 37 wants to play and allow it to take full advantage of beak blast. Knock off is something that I favor heavily a required move. Pivoting imo deserves to have a larger discussion but I do think it should be an optional moveslot.

It could be very interesting to see pivoting on a mon like 37 but I worry about potential stat limitations and potential issues with wanting to click pivoting over beak blast.

Hazards are something that would vastly help improve 37s utility and ability to provide progress against it's counters. I worry they might limit the process later but agree that 37 should have at least one of the hazard moves.

I also wanted to touch upon priority. Personally speaking I think most priority moves interact quite nichely with a mon designed around a negative priority move. It's not something i'm opposed to having as an optional vote but it's certainly not something that needs to be required.

 

[AzothBend]

1. CAP 37’s typing, Dark/Flying, along with the desire to run Beak Blast, semi-locks its moveset. We essentially have two slots to work with. What should be CAP 37’s focus for its remaining move slots? Some categories I’d like to see discussion about are Recovery, Utility, Setup, Coverage, and Priority. Reminder that discussion of specific moves or coverage types is not open yet.

Recovery

Recovery is a big boon for 37 and should be considered; though I'd prefer it to be optional. Knowing any progress made into 37's health is permanent could be useful in facilitating Beak Blast. It may be difficult to strike the right balance in stats, but leaving the possibility open is better than closing it off entirely.

Disruption

Disruption will also be greatly appreciated. 37 already gets Taunt through UAM so no need to really look at other options and weigh penalties; Taunt will suffice.

Hazards

Given our matchup into the metagame's common setters and Beak Blast's ability to punish Rapid Spin, Hazards would suit the 37 well. Some are perhaps a better fit than others, but I'll save specifics until later in this stage.

Pivoting

Beak Blast is likely to force switches. Pivoting moves would then serve 37 well in gaining momentum. With our matchup into common contact punishers, some pivoting moves are preferred over others.

Setup

Opportunist already makes setup a bit awkward, and we probably don't have room for it. But even if we did, Speed boosts are counterintuitive to Beak Blast. Phys. Defense boosts are counterintuitive to Beak Blast. Offensive boosts risk...counterintuitive situations like KO'ing the opponent we just burned with Beak Blast. Best avoided.

Coverage

Dark/Flying is an incredibly potent STAB combination for hitting neutrally into the metagame. And landing big super effective hits isn't really 37's goal anyway. To that end, we will not need other attacking moves and should focus primarily on utility with its remaing two slots.

Priority

There's good interaction with the negative priority of Beak Blast here, potentially allowing for 37 to land two hits before an opponent can move again. One example in particular shines as a pro for our conditional concept.

2. I’m going to immediately break my own rule here and pointedly ask about the move on everyone’s mind: Knock Off. There’s been a lot of dancing around the topic of this move so far this process, and for good reason. It’s a powerful tool, especially on a presumably physical Dark-type. My questions are this: should Knock Off be a defining/required move for CAP 37? How does Knock Off complement Beak Blast? Are there any concerns worth our time with the move?

On its own, Knock Off is a powerful move. When paired with Beak Blast, it gets even better -- punishing switches and removing items from the bulky Rock and Steel types or Fire types that may not fear Beak Blast. If further paired with hazards as is being floated, 37 becomes a fully self contained premier hazard setter, removal denier, and HDB remover. This is an incredibly fruitful path to go down.

Overall, I'm in agreement with most of what's already been said. I do think we all share a pretty cohesive formulation of what 37 will look like at this point. My only caution is that we not get too excited and close off some avenues early. For now, I'm leaning either Knock Off or Recovery as required but not both -- with the other being optional. Those two moves will have the largest impact as we move into stats.

The only other option that holds any weight is hazards. They're great for rounding off 37's kit but I don't know if they're quite required. Metagame already has great setters and ones that partner well with 37. There exists viable paths without them.

 

[Lectrys]

Since we're mentioning hazards, I have to warn that Toxic Spikes is by far the most anti-synergistic hazard to go with the Burn-inflicting Beak Blast, to the point that I'd ban Toxic Spikes from movepools if possible.