CAP Buff 5 - Part 2 - Kitsunoh Buff Discussion

[quziel]

This thread serves to outline the context of the CAP being buffed, in terms of its original design intent, historic usage, current usage, and any other factors surrounding the CAP that must be discussed before buffing or changing it in any way. This thread should also include discussion of the important updates this CAP has gotten in terms of the SM/SS-era updates, early Gen 9 updates, and Indigo Disc tutor move additions. After discussion of context is concluded, buff submissions and discussion will open.

The leader for this buff process is Brambane .

The CAP being discussed is Kitsunoh, whose stats, typing, and ability are listed below.



Typing: Ghost / Steel

Abilities: Frisk / Limber (Iron Fist)

Stats: 80 / 103 / 85 / 55 / 80 / 110

Concept:

Name: Ultimate Scout
Description: A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.

Current Smogdex Set:


Kitsunoh @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- Defog
- U-turn
- Strength Sap

I will now handle this over to Brambane to make his first post.

 

[Brambane]

Kitsunoh's Inaugural Battle: Magmoritified vs. cyberzero - March 14th, 2009
​

Hello, I am excited to be our Buff Leader for Kitsunoh.

Kitsunoh was the 7th CAP, officially led by TL Magmortified in early 2009. This was a different time in CAP’s history, before the creation of a TLT and when main and secondary types were completely separate discussions and polls. You can find the beginning stages of Kitsunoh’s process here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/cap-process-archive.201/page-28

Kitsunoh’s concept was based around “ultimate scouting,” a term which means something completely different in a metagame like DPP where there is no team preview. To summarize the larger discussion that led to Kitsunoh today, scouting had a couple goals:

• Gain information about the opponent’s team composition by switching in easily and forcing the opponent to switch to something unrevealed
• Specifically force the opponent to reveal information about their Pokemon’s items or moveset, especially on Pokemon with a wide variety of sets

Or as Magmotified said more succinctly: “Scout what the current Pokemon has. Scout what your opponent has on their team.” Emphasis was put on the ladder part through Kitsunoh’s gameplay, although Frisk was brought up as early as concept assessment as a useful tool for the former.

We can see this in Kitsunoh’s design. It has a typing with a powerful resistance profile in Gen 4, immunity to sand, and ability to switch in on both Toxic and Thunder Wave. Kitsunoh can force switches easily with strong coverage like Superpower and Thunder Punch (this was a Gyarados meta) or status like Taunt and Trick. Speed high enough to lure in Choice Scarf Pokemon like Flygon, revealing their set. Probably the biggest part of this design was Shadow Strike, which utilizes Defense drops to force the opponent out and reveal more of their team. The set that became popular when I started playing CAP in Gen 4 was “WispyKit;” believe it or not, Wisp was considered one of the weaker movesets for Kitsunoh during its early life! You can read more in the classic, longform Gen 4 analyses here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kitsunoh-4f.62907/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kitsunoh-ou-analysis.69628/

Interestingly, while hard to find logs of those mIRC days, Kitsunoh appears to have had an initially mixed response to how effective it was as a scout and in CAP as a whole. We know in the modern DPP, where the metagame has drastically shifted from those halcyon days of Shoddy Battle, Kitsunoh serves as a flexible offensive breaker or defensive answer to many common DPP threats. A lot of this is based on its typing, Speed, and access to Will-O-Wisp and Trick, which also carried over well into BW. In generation 6 the type chart changed, and Kitsunoh was one of the big losers. While its Ghost STAB was theoretically better, Kitsunoh’s standout coverage as a Ghost was no longer quite so unique and its defensive profile was dramatically diminished. Kitsunoh would continue to decline the VR rankings from Gen 6 onward. Now, Kitsunoh has gone unplayed in this summer’s CAPPL AND CAPCL III, and of course here we are.

​

Before we jump into questions, I am going to make a single executive decision for this buff process: We will not be changing the move Shadow Strike. We are going to approach this project with the same mindset of the other buff process, strategic additions and removals, rather than mechanically changing a custom element. Shadow Strike was designed with a specific intent and is a unique part of CAP’s history. I would rather see Kitsunoh rebalanced with it, rather than move rebalanced for Kitsunoh.

I have three points of discussion for the community:

1. Why is Kitsunoh unviable in Gen 9? Does it have any redeeming qualities, and if so, why are they not enough for Kitsunoh to see reliable tournament play?
2. What should be Kitsunoh’s viable gameplay and strategy? What do we want Kitsunoh to accomplish for its team and in the context of the larger metagame?
3. How many viable sets and/or strategies should Kitsunoh have at its disposal? How does this influence its counterplay and place on teams?

I purposely left out the word “role” in question two because I want us to be more specific. Rather than saying “I want Kitsunoh to be an attacker,” hone in on what that implies about its gameplay, the teams it fits on, what moves it would rely on. For example, “Kitsunoh should use strong attacking moves on Spikes stack teams to force switches while its typing prevents Rapid Spin removal.” This is not my expressed opinion, just an example.

For question three, I encourage using current Pokemon as an example since having a fixed number might be hard to quantify.

We are not submitting buff proposals at this time, HOWEVER you are free to mention specific moves, abilities, or stat benchmarks that support your idea for viable Kitsunoh’s gameplay and strategy. This happens all the time on Discord anyways, so it may as well be allowed here in the thread. I heavily encourage posting in the thread, I will not be going back through hours of Discord logs that happened while I am at work.

And remember: buff proposals are not a competition. You are not trying to “win” by having your buff get the most votes. You do not claim an ability, or move, or stat benchmark. These are part of a shared discussion. The only winner in this process should be Kitsunoh.

 

[quziel]

Kit's had a few rough hands dealt to it.

I think I'll start off with some mechanical changes that have hurt it a ton. Steel/Ghost was perhaps the best defensive typing ever created back in DPP. It's sole weaknesses at the time were Fire and Ground, while it had 2 immunities and a bounty of resists. At the same time you have to keep in mind that as a Ghost type it got, and used Will-o-Wisp which near its peak strength at the time. While wisp only had 75% accuracy in early gens, it also dealt 12.5% per turn on top of the attack halving.

Combine these together and you have a mon, that despite having mediocre defensive stats, was still able to act in a very useful defensive role as it simply wasn't going to actually take much damage. A lot of opponents would struggle to hit it neutrally with their STABs, and even if htey could they're dealing half damage (or none if it u-turns out).

In generation 6 Steel lost its resistances to Ghost and Dark, meaning that Kitsunoh gained two more weaknesses, while Knock off got boosted from 20 BP to 97.5 BP. This meant that not only did the mon take a lot more damage from formerly neutral hits, it was also being hit with Knock Off far more often as the move became the single most spammable move in the game, with literally every mon that can run it running it. It did however gain 10% accuracy for Will-o-Wisp, and a Fairy resist, so its not all bad. This meant that Kitsunoh did still see reasonable use in ORAS, as its typing helped it check some very dangerous threats (Mega-Medicham and Mega-Crucibelle), though it was not at its peak.

In generation 7 the power creep continued, with the introduction of several high BST mons, notably Magearna which competed fairly hard with our fox as a fighting (neutral) steel type, and all the Ultra Beasts, with Kartana competing in the Steel type scarfer role. Burn also got a significant nerf this gen, and as a result Kit's defensive sets went from fairly common to fairly rare. You do still see them as Kit is a rare Tapu Lele check, but they weren't nearly as common as prior gens.

In generation 8 we gave Kit poltergeist during the IoA buffs, and the mon saw a bit of use in double Ghost teams alongside Dragapult, but the mon was very much so not common in this gen. Things only got worse for Kit during gen 9. While we did give it Poltergeist back, generation 9 is a generation of Booster Energy mons, and massive power creep. Kitsunoh's fairly mediocre stats are feeling their worst during this generation, and worse than that there's direct competition with Gholdengo. If you want a defensive Steel/Ghost Gholdengo is your man. It has Thunderwave to turn its bulk into progress vs offensive mons, Good As Gold to deny defog in a way that literally no other mon can, and generally just good stats all around.

In summary Kitsunoh's stats, while good for generation 4, really have not kept up with the power creep we've seen in OU-adjacent formats, its abilities, while good for generation 4, do not do enough to make up for its stats, and well, I will say its movepool and typing are quite great. I think if we're going to change it, we probably need to either give it a very impactful ability, increase its stats in some way, and more generally give it a reason to get used over both Gholdengo and Dragapult.

 

[Samirsin]

Kitsunoh is currently suffering from the overall powercreep from being a Pokémon from 15 years ago, and a lot of things have happened since then, as quziel stated above.
He suffers from an identity crisis, "what do I do succesfully?" Kitsunoh asks himself, and it is true. "I used to be a scouter, then I became an offensive pokémon, but now?" Poor guy. Strength Sap? Defog? Shadow Strike? All of those are good moves it has access to, but in tandem what does it do? Being weak to ground in the modern era is also not a good thing; 110 Speed this gen is not a bad thing, but not the best; being weak to Dark and Ghost is not a good thing, so what can he do? Offensively it is a worse Dragapult, and as a Scouter all of his tools are outdated. Kitsunoh is not bad at all, he is just in the wrong gen and the wrong meta.

For Kitsunoh a scout role is a very interesting niche in this gen, as being an offensive mon makes it face a lot of competition, so carving a niche is something that Kit should desire. But how does one scout in this gen? Brambane gives a really good example of this with a Spikes team and a Ghost typing. Indeed, hazard removal is really important this gen, so this can give us an idea. It has three immunities, Poison, Normal and Fighting, so it can enter against those moves, but now what?

It has 80 HP, 85 Def, and 80 SpD, so it is not as bulky to just stay there and tank other moves.

What is common during this gen and that Kitsunoh can potentially exploit?​

I think that is a good question to answer and follow during this process. Keeping the scouter role is the best option in my opinion, as it will settle Kit as a worthy Pokémon of being used and differentiate it from others.

Being able to force switches, Trick sets with Choice Items, taking advantages of the immunities he has, and being able to be healthy during battle will help him to achieve the ultimate scout.

 

[The Kalos Fox]

I think Intimidate could be interesting for it - it would let it see what physical moves opponents have much easier, and I think it also fits thematically.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I think Limber should be replaced with it

 

[Docter_Peng99]

Add 20 to HP and 10 to attack and remove 20 from special attack seems like a promising plan imo. As for ability buffs maybe replace iron fist for tough claws or steelworker. And for movepoll buff I think the movepool is fine as is as it's really not supposed to grab kos but at the same time a little bit more attack would help it in the long run. These are just my takes so it's not really concrete but I can see a stat buff really helping kitsunoh in the powercrept gen 9

 

[kenn]

Why is Kitsunoh unviable in Gen 9? Does it have any redeeming qualities, and if so, why are they not enough for Kitsunoh to see reliable tournament play?

I think the biggest thorn in Kit's side this generation is that we have a fast Ghost type in Dragapult and a powerful wallbreaker (with the exact same typing) in Gholdengo so Kitsunoh has struggled not just this generation, but in past gens as well to make a name for itself in the meta. That being said it does have quite a few redeeming qualities such as a decently powerful custom move in Shadow Strike rip my dream of suggesting it be a Fire Lash clone though and a good typing to work with defensively as well as a Speed tier that can be easily redeemed with a stat buff. I think the reason these redeeming qualities aren't enough for Kitsunoh to see play is because as previously mentioned it is overshadowed being fast by Dragaoult and being a wallbreaker by Gholdengo but if we can find a happy medium between the two, I think there is a possibility that Kitsunoh can be made to shine like silver again.

What should be Kitsunoh’s viable gameplay and strategy? What do we want Kitsunoh to accomplish for its team and in the context of the larger metagame?

I believe that a way to make Kitsunoh a "top" choice for teams is by giving those building teams an incentive to choose it over Gholdengo or Dragapult. One way this could be achieved, and leans into the whole scout/pivot concept it originally emulated, is by giving it the ability Regenerator. What this would do is allow Kit to keep itself healthy while chipping away at the opponent via potential entry hazard support coupled with it forcing switches with its signature move or via U-turn. Something that had been mentioned in Discord (iirc dex brought it up first) was leaning into Kitsunoh being a Steel/Ghost Torn-T of sorts where it pivots into hits, uses utility moved to annoy the opponent, and stays healthy throughout the match via Regenerator. I think this is a fantastic way to separate itself from Ghold or Pult as Kit can be on more offensive builds that don't want their Ghost type outsped or worn down respectively.

How many viable sets and/or strategies should Kitsunoh have at its disposal? How does this influence its counterplay and place on teams?

Honestly I could see Kit being versatile in it's sets if only because it would give us that reason to use it because it can slot onto "any" teams rather than being stuck on one type of team. It may be too much but have 2 brand new abilities such as the aforementioned Regenerator and also something like Tough Claws that give it different niches could give it a way to shine against the other Ghosts that give it competition otherwise. I am also 100% behind a stat buff particularly to its Speed (maybe push it to 120/125 areas), Attack (to at least 110/115), and potentially to its bulk (like +5 to each of HP, Def, and SpD) as it's overall BST is with the likes of Pyroak (who had to he nerfed after its own buff process granted it too much power with Contrary), Hemogoblin (who's most recent process was meant to be built with "low stats"), and Malaconda (who ended up finding it's purpose this gen with sun being as good of a playstyle as it is). Kitsunoh doesn't have any outstanding qualities that these 3 have to warrant the lower BST that it does have when it comes to other CAPs. Therefore, an "over-the-top" ability or stat buff is the only way to give Kitsunoh a reason to be a choice for teams in Generation 9 imo.

 

[dex]

Having Kitsunoh directly compete with Dragapult and Gholdengo in their respective places in the metagame is a death sentence; either for Kitsunoh's viability or its balance state. Dragapult and Gholdengo outdoing Kitsunoh is not like other type-related competitions in teambuilding. This is no ORAS Seismitoad vs. Gastrodon, this is Clefable vs. Wigglytuff. Furthermore, Dragapult and Gholdengo are extremely good at what they do individually, making competing with them directly difficult. Make no mistake: Kitsunoh is unusable in its current state. The better route would be to look at Pokemon like Landorus-T and Great Tusk that do compete with each other for a team slot by virtue of their typing but provide such different qualities that both are top-tier options.

It would be best to separate Kitsunoh from the other Ghost-types by giving it the tools to provide something new and different as a team's Ghost-type. This means we should stray away from being either a physical wall or a set-up sweeper. Both of these Gholdengo already does extremely well. Dragapult, however, is less clear in its restriction, but I think Dragapult should discourage being a fast wallbreaker.

Something I think should be focused on immediately is Kitsunoh's already-existing pool of support moves. I believe its access to Knock Off, U-turn, and Defog is more than enough to justify focusing on a strong support role for Kitsunoh. Other utility like Strength Sap, Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Wish, and Foul Play lead me to the same conclusion. I support paths that utilize these tools as a jumping-off point for the rest of a buff.

Any way Kitsunoh is buffed, the goal should be to differentiate it from the other Ghost-types of the tier, not outcompete them directly.

 

[Anchor9]

A +10 Spe boost in combination with Encore gives Kitsunoh the ability to disrupt the Ogerpon forms on top of Iron Valiant post-Booster Energy. It can Taunt Chuggalong now and Scarf sets are able to revenge-kill Booster-Speed Iron Valiant and Iron Moth. Prankster + Encore over Limber could also be an interesting choice too to disrupt a large amount of set-up sweepers in the tier. These changes combined with its immunity to common priority such as Vacuum Wave and Extreme Speed would allow Kitsunoh to disrupt a large amount of the setup metagame and easily force the opponent to reveal large amounts of their team’s moveset.

 

[Mada]

Main problem with Kitsunoh is suffering the competition from Gholdengo and also the huge power creep in SV for the utility mons.
You have stuff like Gliscor, Tusk, Glowking, Equilibra, TingLu etc. that just do more stuff and have better stats. Kitsunoh struggles to switch-in on basically anything, so something to give it a decent buff could be giving it a Ground Immunity ability like Earth Eater, as it would help him being a reliable spinblocker and annoying answer to mons like Libra or Gliscor. Although that might be pretty strong, it probably would still be a very fishy mon but at least with a couple of interesting niches.

As mentioned above, giving it Speed Boost would also be a crucial buff since any mon that beats pretty reliably Ogerpon and gives any other type of Utility is always helpful and usable. A quite relevant ATK boost like +22 atk could also be an option to give him a niche and make him a possible threatening setupper with BP as stab for mons like Valiant or Darkrai trying to RKill, whereas you still would lose to a lot of stuff so you wouldn't be too broken.

A little mix with some extra speed and like Mold Breaker could also give him decently more utility, although it would still need some stats boost or a setup move and like Encore, so it can be a threatening StallBreaker (immune to Body Press) and it could Encore or Chip stuff like Gacl or Dengo, while also Defogging on this latest one

 

[calmvibes]

Kitsunoh is currently suffering from the overall powercreep from being a Pokémon from 15 years ago, and a lot of things have happened since then, as quziel stated above.
He suffers from an identity crisis, "what do I do succesfully?" Kitsunoh asks himself, and it is true. "I used to be a scouter, then I became an offensive pokémon, but now?" Poor guy. Strength Sap? Defog? Shadow Strike? All of those are good moves it has access to, but in tandem what does it do? Being weak to ground in the modern era is also not a good thing; 110 Speed this gen is not a bad thing, but not the best; being weak to Dark and Ghost is not a good thing, so what can he do? Offensively it is a worse Dragapult, and as a Scouter all of his tools are outdated. Kitsunoh is not bad at all, he is just in the wrong gen and the wrong meta.

For Kitsunoh a scout role is a very interesting niche in this gen, as being an offensive mon makes it face a lot of competition, so carving a niche is something that Kit should desire. But how does one scout in this gen? Brambane gives a really good example of this with a Spikes team and a Ghost typing. Indeed, hazard removal is really important this gen, so this can give us an idea. It has three immunities, Poison, Normal and Fighting, so it can enter against those moves, but now what?

View attachment 654904​

It has 80 HP, 85 Def, and 80 SpD, so it is not as bulky to just stay there and tank other moves.

What is common during this gen and that Kitsunoh can potentially exploit?​

I think that is a good question to answer and follow during this process. Keeping the scouter role is the best option in my opinion, as it will settle Kit as a worthy Pokémon of being used and differentiate it from others.

Being able to force switches, Trick sets with Choice Items, taking advantages of the immunities he has, and being able to be healthy during battle will help him to achieve the ultimate scout.

As someone new to CAP, this seems to match what was my overall impression wrt Kitsunoh. It just feels like there are just better options in a lot of the spots Kitsunoh currently can fill.


Definitely feels like the scouting Kitsunoh was once built for is not a very useful trait for it to have anymore. Looking at it now, it feels a lot like a less-viable alternative for Gholdengo / Dragapult, like dex mentioned. I think from Kitsunoh's overall look/design, I would definitely want it to fill more of a bruiser role. It already has access to some interesting options like Strength Sap, I think you could potentially really lean into that. CAP already has a lot of really fast & heavy hitters, so for me, it would be interesting to see it get some nice bulk. I love the suggestion kenn gave for Regenerator, I think with some bulk + Regen, and maybe some more added tools, it could prove to be a really useful team member.

But that's just a take from someone who's really new to the format. I'd love to see Kitsunoh shine, I love the design and think it'd be fun to use in the future

 

[Brambane]

Good posts so far, there has been some good analysis of Kitsunoh's current kit and its interaction with current and historic metagames.

There has been a lot of mention of Kitsunoh's Speed being lacking, and I would be interested in seeing some Speed benchmarks from the community. I am curious to see if there is a wide or narrow range on where we think a Speed increase should fall on the Speed tier spectrum.

 

[SDK03]

1. Why is Kitsunoh unviable in Gen 9? Does it have any redeeming qualities, and if so, why are they not enough for Kitsunoh to see reliable tournament play?

A Steel/Ghost typing (that actually gets good Physical Ghost STAB with Poltergeist), and a colourful movepool with both valuable utility options (Knock Off, Defog, U-Turn, Strength Sap, Taunt, Super Fang, Wish, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Fake Out, etc) and a plethora of offense options (too many to list, but it’s a Steel/Ghost that gets Close Combat, Earthquake and Ice/Electric coverage) are really good qualities for a Pokémon in an OU-adjacent meta like CAP to have. Especially since it can easily punish any Kingambit users recklessly switching in and even has Bullet Punch to make Iron Valiant’s life harder.

Problem is that Kitsunoh has a poor Attack stat (example of that below) for a modern-day fast pivot, has an underwhelming Speed stat relative to how hard it hits and the rest of the tier, has an overall poor slate of Abilities and is forced to compete with a much faster and offensively stronger Ghost/Dragon offensive pivot that can go mixed with loads of its own utility options (Dragapult) and a slower, but much bulkier Ghost/Steel type that’s also immune to every targeted Status move in the game (Gholdengo). It makes matters a little worse that another offensive pivot/wallbreaking option in Ogerpon exists, packing in higher Attack, same speed, Knock Off, powerful STAB of its own and quite a few of its own utility options while even being able to choose from 3 different forms for whatever niche applications it needs (although Ogerpon-Wellspring is arguably the strongest option at the moment). I would mention Darkrai’s introduction to OU (and CAP as a result) as a weakness for it too, but considering how much Darkrai already threatens the rest of the Ghost attackers and Ogerpon I didn’t think mentioning “this Ghost type is weak to Darkrai” is that important of a detail.

252 Atk Kitsunoh Close Combat vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 384-452 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO. Not even guaranteed.

2. What should be Kitsunoh’s viable gameplay and strategy? What do we want Kitsunoh to accomplish for its team and in the context of the larger metagame?

Similarly to Dragapult, Kitsunoh should be able to constantly keep momentum and offensive pressure up through pivoting with U-Turn, pestering/crippling opponents with utility options (like Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, Strength Sap and more) and even outright break open defensive cores with its offensive coverage if it chooses to do so. This gives Bulky Offense teams a fast attacker that can open up harder-to-break Pokémon for the rest of the team or eliminate/cripple specific threats with its coverage or utility options while still being defensively stout enough to give itself solid opportunities to come in multiple times and last throughout a game.

3. How many viable sets and/or strategies should Kitsunoh have at its disposal? How does this influence its counterplay and place on teams?

Again, Kitsunoh benefits heavily from having a lot of options at its disposal. Offensive Pivot, Stallbreaker, Choice Band/Scarf user, you name it, it has the movepool for it. Although it is quite weak fundamentally to Ting-Lu, Kingambit and Samurott-Hisui, similar to its Ghost-type competition it (an ideal Kitsunoh) can pick and choose what it wants to be able to either beat or just not be a free-switch for a lot of the meta.

 

[SDK03]

Good posts so far, there has been some good analysis of Kitsunoh's current kit and its interaction with current and historic metagames.

There has been a lot of mention of Kitsunoh's Speed being lacking, and I would be interested in seeing some Speed benchmarks from the community. I am curious to see if there is a wide or narrow range on where we think a Speed increase should fall on the Speed tier spectrum.

I feel that similarly to other fast pivots in the tier, it should be fairly fast (preferably faster than Meowscarada) but without being faster than Darkrai (125). I’d say keeping it around that speed tier will also prevent it from being too crazy (like outspeeding Dragapult or something) if it gets buffs to its Atk and the likewise.

 

[Samirsin]

CAP speed tiers can be checked in this link

 

[MC Squared]

For those that want easy access to Kitsunoh's full Gen 9 movepool without having to go on Showdown.

Level-Up

L1: Strength Sap, Trick, Bullet Punch, Scratch, Tail Whip, Lick, Fake Out
Evo.: Metal Claw
L12: Spite
L16: Shadow Sneak
L20: Copycat
L24: Torment
L28: Hone Claws
L32: Shadow Claw
L36: Knock Off
L40: Iron Head
L44: Shadow Strike
L48: Memento
L52: Perish Song

TMs

TM007: Protect
TM012: Low Kick
TM017: Confuse Ray
TM018: Thief
TM021: Pounce
TM025: Facade
TM028: Bulldoze
TM029: Hex
TM031: Metal Claw
TM034: Icy Wind
TM042: Night Shade
TM043: Fling
TM047: Endure
TM049: Sunny Day
TM050: Rain Dance
TM055: Dig
TM057: False Swipe
TM060: U-turn
TM061: Shadow Claw
TM062: Foul Play
TM068: Thunder Punch
TM069: Ice Punch
TM070: Sleep Talk
TM080: Metronome
TM085: Rest
TM087: Taunt
TM093: Flash Cannon
TM094: Dark Pulse
TM099: Iron Head
TM103: Substitute
TM104: Iron Defense
TM107: Will-O-Wisp
TM109: Trick
TM114: Shadow Ball
TM127: Play Rough
TM149: Earthquake
TM152: Giga Impact
TM161: Trick Room
TM163: Hyper Beam
TM167: Close Combat
TM170: Steel Beam
TM171: Tera Blast
TM172: Roar
TM177: Spite
TM181: Knock Off
TM183: Super Fang
TM198: Poltergeist
TM202: Pain Split
TM203: Psych Up
TM205: Endeavour
TM216: Feather Dance
TM219: Skitter Smack
TM223: Metal Sound
TM224: Curse

Egg Moves

Curse
Defog
Feather Dance
Flail
Iron Tail
Metal Sound
Meteor Mash
Pain Split
Sucker Punch
Wish
Yawn

 

[shnowshner]

There are two qualities that Kitsunoh has going for it. Defensively the Ghost/Steel typing is fantastic if Gholdengo is any indication, and our bulk is only a bit away from that standard: key difference being, Gholdengo is significantly more threatening with its huge SpA, Make It Rain being Overheat but good, and access to Nasty Plot, while also having the benefit of it's fantastic ability letting it shut down a ton of utility options. Kitsunoh, on top of having rather unimpressive Attack, lacks a STAB I would consider good. Poltergeist is close, but the move lacks accuracy for how relatively weak you are, and is frustrating to use in a metagame where Knock Off is an essential piece of many teams, and a significant number of Pokemon enjoy running consumable items like Booster Energy, Air Balloon, or whatever flavor of the week Chuggalong decides on. Shadow Strike isn't the worst move ever but you'd really wish to do better than Fire Lash if it were made in Gen 2, and combined with a lack of reliable Steel STAB this mon just isn't threatening. Unless you've gone AWOL and decide to run Adamant, you can't even guarantee the OHKO on Dragapult with Shadow Strike! It's 37.5%! And it's not like you can pretend it'll get chipped that guy is never taking hazard damage in today's dripped out society!

The other selling point on Kit is its Kit. the movepool. Strength Sap and Wish are wonky but wholly reasonable recovery options that can support your team, Wisp and Taunt are good ways to threaten switches during neutral exchanges, having a mon with Defog is like discovering a $20 bill in your glove compartment nowadays, and it's got a wide array of coverage and utility options like U-Turn, Knock, CC, some cute stuff like Super Fang and two Priority STABs. Meteor Mash and Shadow Strike are theoretically decent moves that when combined with its whole movepool could be dangerous to switch around or stay in against, if Kitsunoh actually ever threatened any damage on the opponent. I think a big problem is that Kitsunoh isn't really built to use a lot of the good moves it does have. Defog is just hard to use reliably on Kit since we aren't terribly hazard resistant, and unlike a mon of Great Tusk's caliber we do not have the immediate presence needed to actually find good opportunities to control hazards, especially in the face of common hazard setters. Wisp can help with that in some instances but it's not foolproof and flubs against specific mons like Venom or Heatran.

Personally I am the most in favor of either bumping a stat or two up a notch so it's more in line with Gen 9's extremely powerful metagame, or giving it a more appropriate Ability choice. The latter is easier to consider imo since Iron Fist is just, weird? I get that in the transition from Gen 4 to Gen 5 people were not terribly interested in making the mon considerably better and you do randomly have like 4 good punching moves, but we're a long ways from Gen 5 and Iron Fist is far behind the curve given our meager statline. Frisk and Limber are the original concept-relevant Abilities so they should remain available. Stat changes sometimes feel like a "one step forwards two steps back" sorta ordeal but if we are based and give it like 140 Speed or pre-nerf Saharaja Attack and SpDef I'd be on board. I'm more partial to swapping out Iron Fist vs a big stat boost since it feels a lot cleaner, which admittedly is a nebulous thing to say about a buff idea.

Dragapult has proved that being very fast and having strong status moves to shut down or cripple targets is an excellent strategy this gen, and it fully takes advantage of this niche with it's good offensive typing, access to U-Turn, ability to smack Gholdengo (who otherwise eats any status move), and abuse its own status spreading with a boosted Hex just as strong as any Gen 8 Specs Shadow Ball. I think having Kit lean into the fast support role has potential but you'd need to really up the power level, as it's Speed is simply not enough anymore and its reliance on weak and unreliable Physical contact moves is a huge penalty. Ultimately Dragapult works almost entirely off of "it is fast and clicks the funny button and doesn't get punished" gameplan with its Abilities more of a bonus and its hit-taking mostly defined by resists and Burn. Kit's typing is significantly more defensive and it largely has the moves needed, it just needs better stats and/or a complimentary ability to actualize those traits. Having a Pult-esque mon that is better at switching in and sticking around, but not as good at cleaning up a game feels attainable here.

One last thing: this mon does not learn Encore in the generation where everything else does, and Kitsunoh is like, top 3 most encore-looking ass CAPs we've ever made, right behind Astrolotl and Kerfluffle. I am personally asking Buff Leader Brambane to mandate +Encore to every buff package submitted.

 

[MC Squared]

One last thing: this mon does not learn Encore in the generation where everything else does, and Kitsunoh is like, top 3 most encore-looking ass CAPs we've ever made, right behind Astrolotl and Kerfluffle. I am personally asking Buff Leader Brambane to mandate +Encore to every buff package submitted.

To further support this guy's proposal, I also propose giving Kitsunoh a way to increase its Attack and Speed in the form of +Swords Dance and +Trailblaze. I was surprised that this quadrupedal Pokémon didn't have those moves when most other things do. If it can find a way to both scout for and break through bulky Pokémon, that'd help it out a lot. I also support keeping Frisk and Limber on it as those were its original concept abilities and we shouldn't stray away from that. But Iron Fist does not fit a quadrupedal that has no fists lol. It only learns two punching moves so the ability doesn't help it at all unless you're running Thunder Punch/Ice Punch. Iron Fist should get replaced by another offensive ability such as Tough Claws so it can boost the power of all of its offensive moves.

 

[Brambane]

Any movepool or ability changes for Kitsunoh will be for competitive reasons only. The addition of new moves, such as Trailblaze, on older CAPs occurs during the updates at the start of the generation and is separate from the buff process.

The addition of Encore because of "Kitsunoh's encore-looking ass CAP" is not a justifiable reason for the addition of the move. If the reasoning for an change includes Kitsunoh's aesthetic design, movepool trends with other Pokemon, or shnowshner putting emphasis on a CAP's ass due to its resemblance to an 8 PP status move that involves clapping, it does not belong in this process. Buff Packages will only focus on the competitive and gameplay implications of an addition, change, or removal.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

If the reasoning for an change includes Kitsunoh's aesthetic design, movepool trends with other Pokemon, or shnowshner putting emphasis on a CAP's ass due to its resemblance to an 8 PP status move that involves clapping, it does not belong in this process.

What the hell did I just read?

 

[faithviolet]

As others have pointed out, Kitsunoh's competition is very good at what it does, so for Kitsunoh to be made more viable, we should be finding a separate niche for it. Its original niche of team-scouting has not been relevant for many generations, and scouting of Tera-type in generation 9 is a job difficult for a Pokemon with Kitsunoh's unexciting offensive prowess.

I think we should be starting the discussion thinking about the two key traits of Kitsunoh and what they enable: Ghost/Steel and Shadow Strike.

While I don't think it would do to turn it into a fully defensive pokemon, the ghost-steel typing is able to deal with type coverage pairs like Flying/Fighting and Fairy/Fighting which can otherwise hit much of the meta for neutral damage (though Fairy/Fighting is weaker in CAP due to the strength of Venomicon). In addition, it is immune or effectively immune from a whole four types.

I think a good goal for the process to end with would be

• Due to its good defensive typing and reasonable bulk, Kitsunoh is able to switch into several important threats and force them out.
• Due to Shadow Strike, Pokemon without offensive presence are not able to just sit on Kitsunoh wasting turns.
• Due to Kitsunoh's broad disruptive/support movepool, as well as its speed, Kitsunoh is still able to make progress when the opponent has a counter.

Stat buffs are the easiest way I see to reaching this goal, and I'd also be down for a switch of Iron Fist to Regenerator, or an addition of Encore.

 

[Brambane]

There have been many good points presented in this thread. After reading through everyone's post, I gleaned the following general trends of thought:

1. Kitsunoh's decline over the generations is primarily due to mechanical changes with the type chart, burn, Knock Off, and other new threats. Due to middling stats, especially Speed, Kitsunoh has been unable to regain lost ground from indirect nerfs.

2. Kitsunoh is generally considered to have a strong typing and movepool. It's abilities are considered to be lackluster given Kitsunoh's also medicore statline, which makes its typing and movepool difficult to utilize in comparison to Pokemon like Dragapult and Gholdengo.

3. Kitsunoh needs to have a distinct niche compared to Dragapult and Gholdengo that is viable enough to justify its use either over or alongside one of those Pokemon on teams. The biggest destinction from the discussion thus far has been Kitsunoh's support/utility movepool, with notable mentions of U-turn, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Strength Sap, Wish, Foul Play, Knock Off, and Defog.

4. There seems to be a general preference for Kitsunoh to play a primarily supporting role, with an alternative or secondary role as a non-boosting attacker with Shadow Strike and its coverage options.

5. It is widely agreed that Kitsunoh is too slow for its gameplan and needs a notable Speed increase. Attack is also considered too low, with calcs presented missing key OHKOs with its current moveset.

6. People think Iron Fist is silly.

Given the above points, changes to Kitsunoh's typing will not be permitted, and movepool additions should be minimal. I am inclined to conclude that community would like Kitsunoh's playstyle and strategy to be a fast utility/hazard control Pokemon that can force opponents out either through strong status options or direct offensive pressure from its Ghost STAB and coverage. A non-Ghost-type comparisons would be Defog/Taunt Tornadus-T. Given this, I will be looking for buffs that focus on improving Kitsunoh's Speed tier and create more opportunities to utilize its utility options. Whether or not you believe that should be done through a more impactful ability, better offensive damage, or greater bulk is up to you!

I am opening submissions for Buff Packages. A Buff Package includes purposeful additions, removals, or changes to Kitsunoh. You are free to include additions and removals simultaneously. For Ability changes, I will only allow one ability change: to replace the hidden ability Iron Fist, as it is clearly the least liked ability in Kitsunoh's... kit.

Users will only be allowed to submit one (1) buff package at this this time. This is subject to change as needed at the discretion of myself and the CAP Leadership.

Please include WIP or Final Submission at the top of your post. You do not need to include -Iron Fist in your buff package; that is universal for ability changes. Do not post multiple buff package posts. Below is an example of how to format a Buff Package (you don't need to include the quotation box):

WIP

+100 Attack
+100 Speed
+Slow Start
+Extreme Speed
-Close Combat
-Thunder Punch

[insert justification here]

 

[earthflax]

WIP

+25 HP
+9 Attack
+18 Speed
+Trace
-Poltergeist

Gets relevantly outsped by Zamazenta and Dragapult. Bulk makes Darkrai Dark Pulse and Weavile Knock Off rolls to kill. Attack is favored for Shadow Strike kill on Pult and guarantees a 2HKO on Ghold. Trace seems odd at first glance but actually has provides some great interactions. Notably, you pretty much become a hard-wall to Equilibra, blocking its Rapid Spin while also being able to force it out through repeated Shadow Strikes. You get a much better matchup vs. Ogerpon-W being able to switch in on Ivy Cudgel and resisting Grass moves and Play Rough. Being able to trace Regenerator is also incredible, as you force out the #1 pivot in the tier in Slowking-Galar (though admittedly being threatened by paralysis based on set) and heal on your way out. There are some other great use cases based on set variation and matchup as well, such as being able to act as a check in a pinch to Dragonite, and the interaction with Protosynthesis and Quark Drive is fun, as forcing switches vs. the likes of Iron Crown allows us to Trace the switch-in's ability. This overall allows Kitsunoh more oportunities to create progress and utilize its... kit over the course of a match.

set

Kitsunoh @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Trace
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp

 

[Anchor9]

Final Submission

+ 17 Atk
+16 Spe
+ 5 Def
+ 10 SpDef
+ Encore
+ Infiltrator

+ 17 Atk provides Kitsunoh some offensive pressure against Gholdengo and allows it to OHKO Slowking-G.
252 Atk Kitsunoh Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+ 10 Spe allows Kitusnoh to outpaces Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Chuggalong, and the Ogerpon formes. This allows Kitsnoh to Taunt and prevent setup or Cinderace from using Court Change.
EDIT: + 16 Spe allows Kitusnoh to outspeed Weavile, Darkrai, and Meowscarada now. This lessens the amount of checks Kitusnoh is being held back by and means it can Encore SD Weavile and Nasty Plot Darkrai and revenge kill all three without running Scarf.


+ 10 HP + 5 Def + 10 SpDef gives Kitsunoh some needed extra bulk and leaves it at 90-90-90, allowing it do some crazy stuff if EVed correctly.
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Kitsunoh: 270-320 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Kitsunoh: 270-320 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Edit: Removed the HP Buff so now you really have to EV to reach these benchmarks :(

+ Encore allows Kitsunoh to actually punish setup from threats like the Ogerpon formes or trap Kingambit in Sucker Punch. Kitsunoh can Encore hazard-setters and get

+ Infiltrator allows Kitsunoh to revenge-kill Iron Moth behind a Substitute while preventing Zamazenta from Subbing and stalling it out. I chose it over Prankster because while Encoring Dragon Dancers like Gouging Fire and Dragonite was nice, losing otherwise winnable matchups to Roaring Moon and Kingambit was not. Kitsunoh would literally become Kingambit’s easiest Sucker Punch guess. Non-Close Combat variants would also be easily set up on.

Edit:
A set :|
Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type:
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 24 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp / Defog
- Strength Sap / U-Turn
- Poltergeist / Knock Off / Shadow Strike
- Taunt / Encore

 

[spoo]

Just wanna pop in to say that buffing this mon is probably more complicated than only giving it a shiny new ability or stat boost. We saw with Voodoom's buff (+25 SpA in gen 8) that simply doubling down on a mon's strengths will matter very little if those strengths are useless in the meta at large, or if those strengths are overshadowed by fundamental flaws in the mon's overall design or toolkit. Pyroak's buff is a good example of the opposite approach working very well (yet another DPP mon whose concept lost its point with time, and whose toolkit became useless from powercreep).

Kitsunoh isn't coherent at all right now. Its pool of desirable options consists of something like Defog, Knock Off, Strength Sap, Shadow Strike, Poltergeist, Meteor Mash, U-turn, Wisp, Wish, and Perish Song (this was ran briefly on one team at the end of SS), and maybe Close Combat, Ice Punch, and Trick as options for offensive sets (which do not exist). It's not just that it's slow, weak, frail, or overshadowed; Kitsunoh can't put together a moveset from these moves that does anything notable or useful right now. It can run Defog, but is exceptionally poor at removing hazards; it loses to every prominent Stealth Rock user not named Venomicon, and is vulnerable to Spikes on top of it. Some sort of Shadow Strike + Wisp + Knock set is pretty good at forcing progress, but is still overshadowed by the overwhelming utility that bulky Hex Gholdengo can provide for a team, or even stuff like Knock + Wisp Darkrai, Knock + Toxic Gliscor, or Wisp + Hex Dragapult. Strength Sap is good, but not as good as it's often made out to be. Trying to put together an offensive 4A or 3A + Trick set is nearly impossible; you are never going to beat out Dragapult and Gholdengo for a slot.

There are some abilities that are so ridiculously strong here (regen, levitate, etc) that they'd probably just be a one-and-done fix, but for the most part, I think buff proposals will need to really have a clear and creative vision for the mon's success, and not just, like, mindlessly give it Tough Claws or +20 spe thinking it'll fix the root problem. Like, it's cool to buff Kitsunoh so that it outspeeds most of the tier, but it still needs a coherent moveset to actually make use of that speed and do something meaningful and unique with it. Kitsunoh is not only bad at what it does, but it doesn't even "do" anything currently; the mon's identity is nebulous at best. Buff towards a real vision for viability instead of just addressing the surface-level problems. Again, I think Pyroak's buff is a good example of this working in practice.