Gen 4 CB Gyarados Offense(Peaked 24 on The Ladder)

robertshortgrass · Oct 12, 2024

-Hello everyone! This is my first RMT, so let me know if there is anything in my descriptions that could be improved. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read my post and help me out with this project.
https://pokepast.es/611a375a15707320
*Edit: I forgot to include the replays the first time around so I added them to the bottom of the post. I tested the team on my alt DPP_T3ST.
:Mesprit:

Mesprit @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 208 HP / 180 Def / 24 SpD / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Copycat
I chose Mesprit because it’s a favorite of mine and I’ve been wanting to use it for a minute now. As I was building the team, I realized I needed a lead and chose Mesprit over the typical leads because of its unique moveset. Lum lets you stave off status, and alongside Copycat lets you beat sleep leads. Psychic is a nice stab move that allows you to chunk Breloom, Roserade, Nidoqueen, Machamp and neutral targets as well. I gave it Stealth Rocks because I wanted them up as early as possible, but they could go on Donphan and Mesprit could run something else instead. The speed evs allow you to outrun Modest Empoleon. I got the defense evs from the Strategy Dex, and put a little bit into Spdf to round out its bulk, although I'm not sure they've been super impactful .
:Gyarados:

Gyarados @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
Gyarados filled a massive hole that this team had. It helps against Scizor, all fighting types(especially Lucario), defensive Zapdos, and bulky ground types. Intimidate + the ground immunity also offer much needed defensive utility. I went with Choice Band because I liked the immediate power it provides in comparison to the Dragon Dance set. I dropped the speed so that you would have enough to outrun modest Heatran and provide more bulk, but max speed is nice as well(tying with other Gyara and outrunning adamant Mamoswine). I went with Ice Fang over Payback or Outrage because I needed a way to deal with Breloom who was causing my team trouble. It does 97%-115% to offensive Loom and has a 50% chance to 2HKO defensive Zapdos without Rocks up.
:Magnezone:

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect
- Magnet Rise
I chose Magnezone to help me trap and remove steels, in particular Zong, Skarm, and Meta. It can take on non-SuperRachi sets quite well if you avoid the Fire Punch burn. It can also weaken Suicune (in particular Cune’s running Surf over Hydro Pump) for something to revenge. Protect was chosen over Thunder Wave or Toxic to block Explosion from Zong and Meta. I originally ran HP Fire to deal with Forre and Scizor, but switched it to HP Ice to help take care of ground types.
:Tyranitar:

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
As BKC said, "Scarf Tyranitar counters everything!" On top of being a bulky pivot, it acts as a potent offensive threat. I did think about running Band over Scarf to better deal with defensive Lati, Starmie, Celebi, and the occasional Cresselia, but I like the speed that Scarf provides too much to give it up. I have considered running Earthquake over Superpower to help the team out against Rachi, but I don't know if that is the best move as losing Superower makes the team a bit worse into Clefable. Clef hasn't been a problem for the team, but I've been too afraid to give up the super effective coverage against it.
:Donphan:

Donphan @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Atk / 56 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Head Smash
- Knock Off
Donphan does so much for this team. I love its design, and prefer it as a spinner over Starmie because it isn’t TTar weak, is Stealth Rock resistant, and is sand immune. An offensive set seemed better suited than a defensive set for this team, which is why the set is how it is. Custap lets you do a lot of crazy things, and allows you to turn the tide of the battle by getting off a vital spin or damage with one of your attacking moves. I got the ev spread from this post Oatmon made and tweaked it to suit my needs. The increased attack over Oatmon’s set gives you a 69.5% chance to 2HKO careful Clef. It is the team's main DD Tar check.
:Latias:

Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish
- Trick
The last member is Latias. Scarf Lati holds things down and allows the team to breathe. Its plethora of resists helps take the load off of other mons. It is the primary check to DD Gyara and Dnite, and can use Trick to cripple walls or set up sweepers like Suicune. Healing Wish gives another mon a second life(typically Gyara). I decided I wanted more bulk on it, so I dropped the speed to be faster than the most common Infernape set without the Choice Scarf, which allows you to still outspeed Scarf Flygon who can trouble this team otherwise.

Problem Mons
:Breloom:

Breloom- All sets are tough to deal with if Mesprit is down. Sub sets really mess me up.
:Jirachi:

SuperRachi- The coverage makes it a nightmare to deal with.
:Suicune:

Suicune: I usually have to give up a mon or two to beat it, which is not ideal.
:Tyranitar:

CB Tar is kinda of a problem, because my dark resists aren't the best, and Gyara doesn't like taking too many hits with rocks up.
:Heatran:

I have a hard time switching around and damaging Specs Tran.

Hazards are a problem. I don't have a way to prevent them from going up, so I have to do my best to get a spin off with Donphan.

Proof of Peak

badabing · Oct 14, 2024

i noticed these 6 when you were testing azu.

i think the breloom weakness is too big. it runs over tar/mag/phan at the core. mesprit and latias can be picked off too easily/aren't particularly threatening in their own right. cbgyara over azu is an improvement but not an ideal countermeasure in the long run imo (even with hwish). it can't quite impose itself. you will be in situations where you have to hit it with waterfall. and breloom is everywhere. hard to justify being in such a hole vs it.

perhaps a fast loom of your own over donphan. or custap twave/flash cannon mag for some tar insurance and an aggressive gliscor with sky attack. i think the stallbreaker set can be played around too easily for momentum building purposes. an offensive metagross/scizor/rachi could maybe work also.

ddtar's coverage is gonna be a problem however. you have correctly identified that a big move for you will be speed tying with your own tar and possibly pivoting in. this means mach is not mandatory on a potential loom. it seems crazy but not everything can be perfect. glis can live +1 aqua tail with 180 hp but doesn't ohko back and ice punch exists. then you follow up with latias which unfortunately seems pretty deflating.

good work tho bro.

mackie · Oct 15, 2024

Just wanted to mention another threat to the team would be Tormentran, who pretty much runs through the team (especially since you have three Choice'd mons). Well actually Donphan is your best bet since he can alternate between Earthquake and Head Smash once Tormented, however Heatran can damage Donphan's specially weak side with Lava Plume and even potentially ruin Donphan with a burn. Kind of an obscure threat but definitely kryptonite for the team (unless you can see some other counter-argument). Now that I'm thinking of it Mesprit's Copycat might cause issues as well for Tormentran.

I was thinking a way to cover both Tormentran and your other big issue in Breloom would be running the stallbreaker Gliscor set over Donphan (you could run Wing Attack over Ice Fang for greater insurance against Breloom). Gliscor isn't a 100% counter to Tormentran but at least he outspeeds it unlike Donphan does, as well as has access to Taunt to potentially shut it down. Gliscor also covers more of your threatlist, let me run through some of them now:

SuperRachi - Has a favorable matchup versus these Jirachis since most don't run HP Ice (just gotta watch out for Ice Punch)
CBTar - I recommend running the Impish Gliscor with some Def EVs to help versus CBTar/DDTar, as well as Lucario - with the extra investment he is a reliable check to them
SpecsTran - Gliscor naturally outspeeds and can KO with Earthquake

Unfortunately you lose Rapid Spin but CB Gyarados tends to be played more suicidally anyway. Or you could replace Gyarados entirely with like Choice Band or Choice Specs Swampert which could be cool. CB Swampert can predict Breloom / Gyarados switch-ins and KO with Ice Punch or Stone Edge.

Update: I think Scarf Magneton over Magnezone should be considered after testing the new team on the ladder. I had some trouble with a hyper offensive team that had a DDtar (with Ice Punch for Gliscor), DDnite, and DDdos. Magneton can outspeed and revenge kill all three. Also gives a backup revenge killer in case Latias goes down. But then you're also super-choiced.

robertshortgrass · Oct 16, 2024

Thanks for all the feedback and help.

badabing said:
i noticed these 6 when you were testing azu.

i think the breloom weakness is too big. it runs over tar/mag/phan at the core. mesprit and latias can be picked off too easily/aren't particularly threatening in their own right. cbgyara over azu is an improvement but not an ideal countermeasure in the long run imo (even with hwish). it can't quite impose itself. you will be in situations where you have to hit it with waterfall. and breloom is everywhere. hard to justify being in such a hole vs it.

perhaps a fast loom of your own over donphan. or custap twave/flash cannon mag for some tar insurance and an aggressive gliscor with sky attack. i think the stallbreaker set can be played around too easily for momentum building purposes. an offensive metagross/scizor/rachi could maybe work also.

ddtar's coverage is gonna be a problem however. you have correctly identified that a big move for you will be speed tying with your own tar and possibly pivoting in. this means mach is not mandatory on a potential loom. it seems crazy but not everything can be perfect. glis can live +1 aqua tail with 180 hp but doesn't ohko back and ice punch exists. then you follow up with latias which unfortunately seems pretty deflating.

good work tho bro.

I tried the team with both Rachi and Gross before settling on Gross. Lum + Zen lets me beat Breloom and Machamp as well as hit water types hard. Explosion is also really nice to have. EQ + BP beats Tar, so it replaces Donphan nicely. I don't know if I want Jolly or Adamant on it, and I did change the lead to Gyara but I'm not set on that either.
https://pokepast.es/ed741f9e25014688
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2223866606-qxn9ozh2s2l3xonti4w4zod1384ibcipw

togaquest said:
Just wanted to mention another threat to the team would be Tormentran, who pretty much runs through the team (especially since you have three Choice'd mons). Well actually Donphan is your best bet since he can alternate between Earthquake and Head Smash once Tormented, however Heatran can damage Donphan's specially weak side with Lava Plume and even potentially ruin Donphan with a burn. Kind of an obscure threat but definitely kryptonite for the team (unless you can see some other counter-argument). Now that I'm thinking of it Mesprit's Copycat might cause issues as well for Tormentran.

I was thinking a way to cover both Tormentran and your other big issue in Breloom would be running the stallbreaker Gliscor set (you could run Wing Attack over Ice Fang for greater insurance against Breloom). Gliscor isn't a 100% counter to Tormentran but at least he outspeeds it unlike Donphan does, as well as has access to Taunt to potentially shut it down. Gliscor also covers more of your threatlist, let me run through some of them now:

SuperRachi - Has a favorable matchup versus these Jirachis since most don't run HP Ice (just gotta watch out for Ice Punch)
CBTar - I recommend running the Impish Gliscor with some Def EVs to help versus CBTar/DDTar, as well as Lucario - with the extra investment he is a reliable check to them
SpecsTran - Gliscor naturally outspeeds and can KO with Earthquake

Unfortunately you lose Rapid Spin but CB Gyarados tends to be played more suicidally anyway. Or you could replace Gyarados entirely with like Choice Band or Choice Specs Swampert which could be cool. CB Swampert can predict Breloom / Gyarados switch-ins and KO with Ice Punch or Stone Edge.

Update: I think Scarf Magneton over Magnezone should be considered after testing the new team on the ladder. I had some trouble with a hyper offensive team that had a DDtar (with Ice Punch for Gliscor), DDnite, and DDdos. Magneton can outspeed and revenge kill all three. Also gives a backup revenge killer in case Latias goes down. But then you're also super-choiced.

I liked your suggestions about using Gyara "suicidally" and incorporated that into the game shown above. I also liked adding Gliscor and CB Pert to the team. I haven't done much testing with the team, but in the one game I did play I ran into both CB Tar and Superachi and was able to shut them down handily.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2224448520
https://pokepast.es/26fb6bbb0fca24c3

mackie · Oct 17, 2024

robertshortgrass said:
Thanks for all the feedback and help.

I tried the team with both Rachi and Gross before settling on Gross. Lum + Zen lets me beat Breloom and Machamp as well as hit water types hard. Explosion is also really nice to have. EQ + BP beats Tar, so it replaces Donphan nicely. I don't know if I want Jolly or Adamant on it, and I did change the lead to Gyara but I'm not set on that either.
https://pokepast.es/ed741f9e25014688
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2223866606-qxn9ozh2s2l3xonti4w4zod1384ibcipw

I liked your suggestions about using Gyara "suicidally" and incorporated that into the game shown above. I also liked adding Gliscor and CB Pert to the team. I haven't done much testing with the team, but in the one game I did play I ran into both CB Tar and Superachi and was able to shut them down handily.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2224448520
https://pokepast.es/26fb6bbb0fca24c3

Yea I had a lot of success in particular with CB Pert which was a bit suprising. A lot of people don't expect him to hit so hard, plus its fun predicting switch-ins with Ice Punch and Stone Edge. The more defensive Gliscor is also a relief for the team versus Tyranitars/Lucario/Metagross

I was thinking of replacing Magnezone with something else because at this point his only real use is for eliminating Skarmory, maybe a mixed Jirachi of our own to possibly bait and eliminate Skarmory, while also offering more than Magnezone? If we replace Zone we still need a Steel to fill its place, or else we would have no Steel type.

Jirachi with:
- Iron Head
- Thunderbolt
- Icy Wind (can slow Pokemon down so that Jirachi or even Swampert can outspeed)
- Other coverage move or maybe even Wish to support Swampert or other team members

Or maybe like a Heatran?

robertshortgrass · Oct 22, 2024

I think mixed Rachi could be nice there in place of Magnezone. Maybe this set.
Jirachi @ Lum Berry/Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Iron Head/Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt
- Icy Wind
- Fire Punch

Gen 4 CB Gyarados Offense(Peaked 24 on The Ladder)

robertshortgrass

badabing

mackie

formerly togaquest

robertshortgrass

mackie

formerly togaquest

robertshortgrass