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Celesteela Discussion
- Thread starter Nexus
- Start date
What will the optimal EV spread for non-Automotize variants be? 84 Speed outpaces standard Specs Magnezone but is that really worth it, or is it better to go max/max, or even a different spread?
If you can outspeed and OHKO standard Magnezone, I don't see this thing running any less speed than that because, why would you lol. I haven't thought/calc'd enough with this 'Mon yet to give an actual response to you question (sorry), but 84 Speed seems extremely worth being able to outrun and OHKO Zone.
EDIT: Especially because people seem to love the idea of trapping rn, and Duggy clearly can't trap this.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Autotomize
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
This thing is not getting the attention it deserves. Damn this thing is threatening. 97 / 101 / 103 defences are thoroughly impressive, coupled with one of the best defensive typings in the game, this pokemon is looking to have a lot of set-up opportunities. The speed EV's outspeed mega Lopunny after an automize. This thing is not the most powerful pokemon, but heavy slam / earthquake / Fire blast offers awesome coverage, and has enough power to be threatening (used primal grounded as it is the heaviest pokemon - though celesteela is even heavier, do not worry, I changed its typing to steel / flying and gave it appropriate stats):
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 190-225 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 217-256 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 96 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 243-286 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 178-211 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(It also decimates all the new Tapu's - though not Koko as much)
0- SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 384-456 (99.4 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Once it has set-up a beast boost after a kill however, is when it becomes far more threatening:
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 285-336 (105.1 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 358-423 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 190-225 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 216-255 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now, for set up opportunities:
It sets up on Tapu Lele and Bulu
Sets up on Garchomp w/o roar and landorus-t
Sets up on clefable and mega diancie:
8 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 160-189 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO
Sets up on azumarill (though azumarill must be weakened for celesteela to kill azum):
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 232-274 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sets up on mega gardevoir, alakazam, and alakazam-mega
Sets up on gliscor
Sets up on Lati's
Sets up on Scizor and Mega Scizor
Sets up on mega-pinsir
Able to set up on weavile:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 191-226 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Able to set up on mega venusaur and amoongus after it has spored
Able to set up on serperior
Can set up once on mega-lopunny:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 214-253 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Can set up on tangrowth
Can set up on excadrill
Can set up on ferrothorn
Can set up on mega-metagross
I am aware the wall of text is annoying, but the plethora of pokemon Celesteela can set up on late game is literally ludicrous (I just named 19 including Tapu bulu and lele). In the early offensive metagame stage, Celesteel can be the perfect late game sweeper. It might not originally stand out as an amazing pokemon, but its certainly one to watch imo - as it has all it needs to be threatening as an automize sweeper.
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Wow Celesteela does NOT want to share those lefties with Weavile.
Edit: looks like the simulator always consider that Leftovers are still held even after a Knock Off. Nevermind lol
I think LO should be used primarly and Lefties as a bulky option and for a mixed set. You transform a lot of 2HKO to OHKO with it and you get a chance to sweep if you nag a +1 Atk.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Autotomize
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
This thing is not getting the attention it deserves. Damn this thing is threatening. 97 / 101 / 103 defences are thoroughly impressive, coupled with one of the best defensive typings in the game, this pokemon is looking to have a lot of set-up opportunities. The speed EV's outspeed mega Lopunny after an automize. This thing is not the most powerful pokemon, but heavy slam / earthquake / Fire blast offers awesome coverage, and has enough power to be threatening (used primal grounded as it is the heaviest pokemon - though celesteela is even heavier, do not worry, I changed its typing to steel / flying and gave it appropriate stats):
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 190-225 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 217-256 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 96 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 243-286 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 178-211 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(It also decimates all the new Tapu's - though not Koko as much)
0- SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 384-456 (99.4 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Once it has set-up a beast boost after a kill however, is when it becomes far more threatening:
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 285-336 (105.1 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 358-423 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 190-225 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 216-255 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now, for set up opportunities:
It sets up on Tapu Lele and Bulu
Sets up on Garchomp w/o roar and landorus-t
Sets up on clefable and mega diancie:
8 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 160-189 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO
Sets up on azumarill (though azumarill must be weakened for celesteela to kill azum):
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 232-274 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sets up on mega gardevoir, alakazam, and alakazam-mega
Sets up on gliscor
Sets up on Lati's
Sets up on Scizor and Mega Scizor
Sets up on mega-pinsir
Able to set up on weavile:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 191-226 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Able to set up on mega venusaur and amoongus after it has spored
Able to set up on serperior
Can set up once on mega-lopunny:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 214-253 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Can set up on tangrowth
Can set up on excadrill
Can set up on ferrothorn
Can set up on mega-metagross
I am aware the wall of text is annoying, but the plethora of pokemon Celesteela can set up on late game is literally ludicrous (I just named 19 including Tapu bulu and lele). In the early offensive metagame stage, Celesteel can be the perfect late game sweeper. It might not originally stand out as an amazing pokemon, but its certainly one to watch imo - as it has all it needs to be threatening as an automize sweeper.
I love Celesteela and will clearly be a strong Pokemon in OU. It gets the right moves for it and also is capable to put both ofenses to use, making it unpredictable if it's running a Physical, Special or both.
Also, It'll make a good alternative to Jirachi considering both are primarly used to check Fairy Pokemon.
That's why LO compensate for the weaker Heavy Slam. Still Celesteela has enough weight to hit threats for 80BP or lighter ones for 120BP.
Edit:
Ok, so I decided to check which mons you don't hit with 120BP Heavy Slam (without Autotomize). The list goes lighter to heavier:
Palkia
Probopass
Zekrom
Mega Glalie
Kyogre
Aggron
Mega Rayquaza
Mega Aggron
Wailord
Steelix
Alolan Exeggutor
Regigigas
Primal Kyogre
Heatran
Snorlax
Hoopa Unbound
Avalugg
Metagross
Zygarde Complete
Giratina-O
Dialga
Mega Steelix
Giratina-A
Guzzlord
Mudsdale
Mega-Metagross
Groudon
Cosmoem
Celesteela
Primal Groudon
Now with Autotomize, you get 120BP on all pokemon not mentioned here:
Lunatone
Regice
Raikou
Crabominable
Magnezone
Abomasnow
Mega Abomasnow
Drampa
Bronzong
Suicune
Volcanion
Entei
Ho-oh
Virizion
Crustle
Scolipede
Tyranitar
Metang
Yveltal
Registeel
Rayquaza
Onix
Dragonite
Dhelmise
Turtonator
Xerneas
Lugia
Lapras
Camerupt
Mantine
Aurorus
Solgaleo
Regirock
Necrozma
Gyarados
Cobalion ->100BP limit
Palossand
Hariyama
Tyranitar
Mega Tyranitar
Glalie
Gigalith
Terrakion
Beartic
Tyrantrum
Rhyperior
Mamoswine
Golem
Hippowdon
Zygarde
50% Forme
Gyarados
Mega Gyarados
Torterra
Golem
Alolan Golem
Arceus
Camerupt
Mega Camerupt
Kyurem
White Kyurem
Kyurem
Black Kyurem
Kyurem
Golurk
Reshiram -> 80BP Limit
Buzzwole
Palkia
Probopass
Zekrom
Glalie
Mega Glalie
Kyogre
Aggron
Rayquaza
Mega Rayquaza
Aggron
Mega Aggron
Wailord
Steelix
Exeggutor
Alolan Exeggutor
Regigigas
Kyogre
Primal Kyogre
Heatran
Snorlax
Hoopa
Hoopa Unbound
Avalugg
Metagross
Zygarde
Complete Forme
Giratina
Origin Forme
Dialga
Steelix
Mega Steelix
Giratina
Altered Forme
Guzzlord
Mudsdale
Metagross
Mega Metagross
Groudon
Cosmoem
Celesteela
Groudon
Primal Groudon
Edit:
Ok, so I decided to check which mons you don't hit with 120BP Heavy Slam (without Autotomize). The list goes lighter to heavier:
Palkia
Probopass
Zekrom
Mega Glalie
Kyogre
Aggron
Mega Rayquaza
Mega Aggron
Wailord
Steelix
Alolan Exeggutor
Regigigas
Primal Kyogre
Heatran
Snorlax
Hoopa Unbound
Avalugg
Metagross
Zygarde Complete
Giratina-O
Dialga
Mega Steelix
Giratina-A
Guzzlord
Mudsdale
Mega-Metagross
Groudon
Cosmoem
Celesteela
Primal Groudon
Now with Autotomize, you get 120BP on all pokemon not mentioned here:
Lunatone
Regice
Raikou
Crabominable
Magnezone
Abomasnow
Mega Abomasnow
Drampa
Bronzong
Suicune
Volcanion
Entei
Ho-oh
Virizion
Crustle
Scolipede
Tyranitar
Metang
Yveltal
Registeel
Rayquaza
Onix
Dragonite
Dhelmise
Turtonator
Xerneas
Lugia
Lapras
Camerupt
Mantine
Aurorus
Solgaleo
Regirock
Necrozma
Gyarados
Cobalion ->100BP limit
Palossand
Hariyama
Tyranitar
Mega Tyranitar
Glalie
Gigalith
Terrakion
Beartic
Tyrantrum
Rhyperior
Mamoswine
Golem
Hippowdon
Zygarde
50% Forme
Gyarados
Mega Gyarados
Torterra
Golem
Alolan Golem
Arceus
Camerupt
Mega Camerupt
Kyurem
White Kyurem
Kyurem
Black Kyurem
Kyurem
Golurk
Reshiram -> 80BP Limit
Buzzwole
Palkia
Probopass
Zekrom
Glalie
Mega Glalie
Kyogre
Aggron
Rayquaza
Mega Rayquaza
Aggron
Mega Aggron
Wailord
Steelix
Exeggutor
Alolan Exeggutor
Regigigas
Kyogre
Primal Kyogre
Heatran
Snorlax
Hoopa
Hoopa Unbound
Avalugg
Metagross
Zygarde
Complete Forme
Giratina
Origin Forme
Dialga
Steelix
Mega Steelix
Giratina
Altered Forme
Guzzlord
Mudsdale
Metagross
Mega Metagross
Groudon
Cosmoem
Celesteela
Groudon
Primal Groudon
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smh big af, random competetive moves, but doesn't look outstanding
Personally I would rather eschew Autotomize and go with a -Speed nature and use Leech Seed in its place. Not only does Leech Seed allow Celesteela to have incredible staying power due to its typing and bulk, but Fire Blast is also better vs potential checks on Tapu Bulu teams or in doubles where EQ packs less of a punch.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Brave
108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 SpA
Heavy Slam
Leech Seed
Earthquake
Fire Blast
This set assumes lv50 play (for Battle Spot/VGC) and pre-Bank
I'm mainly going to talk about how this set deals with Pokemon that resist Heavy Slam. It's no question that for the majority of Pokemon, a 120 BP move (180 after STAB) with 100% accuracy is ridiculously good.
The main reason to run Brave over Adamant is to score 2HKOs on some of the bulkiest Steels available, namely enemy Celesteela and MegaGross. Pre-Bank MegaGross lacks Thunderpunch, making Celesteela an invaluable ally for people who think they can spam it to take advantage of the Tapus running everywhere. Here are some calcs:
148 SpA Celesteela Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 102-120 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
148 SpA Celesteela Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 94-112 (60.2 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You need 220 SpA to guarantee the 2HKO on enemy Celesteela with max HP and Leftovers. Not only do I find this scenario somewhat unlikely, I don't really want to invest that much SpA at the expense of the HP EVs. What I alloted is good enough for me, but if you don't like it then feel free to adjust the spread as necessary.
Barring a crit or miss, you will win 1v1 against Adamant Celesteela:
0- SpA Celesteela Fire Blast vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 78-94 (41.9 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unfortunately Weakness Policy Aegislash still screws you over:
252+ Atk Celesteela Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 76-90 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 166-196 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
At the very least, Brave Celesteela outspeeds Quiet Aegislash by a single point and is able to revenge it, but if you're fearful of potential speed creep then you should take some EVs out of Atk and put them in Speed.
The main checks to this set would be the small pool of usable Fire types, Gyarados, Greninja, and Scald users. Unfortunately there really isn't much you can do against them unless you want to give up a slot for Seed Bomb or put in more HP to survive an unboosted Fire Blast from Salazzle or something. I think going mixed and opting for more sustain better helps Celesteela take advantage of its excellent typing and bulk.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Brave
108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 SpA
Heavy Slam
Leech Seed
Earthquake
Fire Blast
This set assumes lv50 play (for Battle Spot/VGC) and pre-Bank
I'm mainly going to talk about how this set deals with Pokemon that resist Heavy Slam. It's no question that for the majority of Pokemon, a 120 BP move (180 after STAB) with 100% accuracy is ridiculously good.
The main reason to run Brave over Adamant is to score 2HKOs on some of the bulkiest Steels available, namely enemy Celesteela and MegaGross. Pre-Bank MegaGross lacks Thunderpunch, making Celesteela an invaluable ally for people who think they can spam it to take advantage of the Tapus running everywhere. Here are some calcs:
148 SpA Celesteela Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 102-120 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
148 SpA Celesteela Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 94-112 (60.2 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You need 220 SpA to guarantee the 2HKO on enemy Celesteela with max HP and Leftovers. Not only do I find this scenario somewhat unlikely, I don't really want to invest that much SpA at the expense of the HP EVs. What I alloted is good enough for me, but if you don't like it then feel free to adjust the spread as necessary.
Barring a crit or miss, you will win 1v1 against Adamant Celesteela:
0- SpA Celesteela Fire Blast vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 78-94 (41.9 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unfortunately Weakness Policy Aegislash still screws you over:
252+ Atk Celesteela Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 76-90 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 166-196 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
At the very least, Brave Celesteela outspeeds Quiet Aegislash by a single point and is able to revenge it, but if you're fearful of potential speed creep then you should take some EVs out of Atk and put them in Speed.
The main checks to this set would be the small pool of usable Fire types, Gyarados, Greninja, and Scald users. Unfortunately there really isn't much you can do against them unless you want to give up a slot for Seed Bomb or put in more HP to survive an unboosted Fire Blast from Salazzle or something. I think going mixed and opting for more sustain better helps Celesteela take advantage of its excellent typing and bulk.
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It's so heavy that even after an automize it hits most offensive Pokemon for 120 bp.
I do agree that Leech seed is great on her, and I plan to use it. Not just for survivability, but just more annoance and damage.
I am not 100% sure on Fire blase and a Brave nature. I was going Adamant with Earthquake, Heavy Slam, Seed Bomb, Leech seed. You hit exactly the same amount of pokemon SE with either move, and you could go make her tankier with more HP instead of splitting between HP and SpA.
I do see your idea though, and its a good one. Yeah Fire blast lets you hit some counters stronger, but Seed bomb will let you hit some of those bulky waters that resist your Heavy slam.
Now that I look at it, life orb does seem a better option and you would be far more likely to get a beast boost.