Charizard Discussion

[NatGeo]

rawr nigs

<pstats> Charizard
[Fire/Flying] | Blaze/ Solar Power (DW)
78 HP / 84 Atk /78 Def / 109 SpA /85 SpD / 100 Spe

So I think this is probably the one dropdown that's been getting the most discussion lately. It's one of the most powerful and influential Pokemon in the tier at the moment, even with a quadruple weakness to Stealth Rock. Charizard is one of many reasons to use sun; it 2HKOes every single Pokemon in the tier, bar none, when equipped with Choice Specs. Solar Power makes Charizard a lot frailer however, especially if you're using Life Orb.

Sets:

Charizard @ Choice Specs
Timid Nature
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Fire Blast
-Focus Blast
-Air Slash
-HP Ice / HP Grass

The big daddy of them all. Charizard sits at a great Speed tier to outpace most of the unboosted metagame. For reference, this is the power of Charizard:

Hello, ladies. Let's do some calcs.

Timid Solar Power Choice Specs Charizard in Sun:

vs 252/252+ Regirock: 209-246 (57.41 - 67.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/0 Regirock: 291-343 (79.94 - 94.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/0 Alomomola: 540-636 (101.12 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs 252/252+ Lickilicky: 433-511 (102.12 - 120.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs 252/252+ Camerupt: 251-296 (72.96 - 86.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/252+ Mantine: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.38%) -- 67.97% chance to 2HKO (probably your best bet here)
vs 252/252+ Cloud Nine Altaria: 90-107 (25.42 - 30.22%) -- possible 4HKO (oh yeah cloud nine, HP Ice still ohkoes so watch out for that)
vs 252/252+ Volbeat in Rain: 224-266 (67.26 - 79.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only thing that counters this thing defensively is Altaria if you carry HP Grass, while if you carry HP Ice it's gonna be fun countering Charizard inside sun and even outside of Sun. However, offensive checks to this are found in a lot of places, ranging from Rock-types with Sturdy like Golem to revenge killers like Rotom-S. What are your thoughts on this? As a note, Choice Scarf could work too since you basically outspeed the entire meta with a Scarf, but you're losing a lot of power especially outside of sun - I wouldn't imagine a regular Fire Blast isn't too scary.

Charizard @ Life Orb
Timid Nature
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Fire Blast
-Air Slash
-Focus Blast / Substitute
-Roost (Blaze only)

Basically SubRoost or LO + Roost, pick your poison. Charizard has a lot more staying power with this set, and it's a lot harder to revenge kill if you have a Sub up or are even at 100% (Charizard actually has decent bulk for a sweeper). Life Orb is really scary on Charizard, since you have most of the power of Choice Specs with the ability to change moves depending on what's out on the field. You're going to go down REALLY fast though, which is why we have roost! There are some more offensive checks for this as well, though they'll have to either be able to take a hit from behind a sub or have a multihit move (think cinccino for the latter).

Obviously SR kills this thing pretty fast, so Rapid Spin support is nice. What Rapid Spinners do you think work well with Charizard? Do these spinners have to work on Sun teams as well?

What works well with Charizard? Does it work better inside or outside of sun, and for what reasons?

I'll leave you with those questions to answer and discuss!

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I think Specs is just so terrifying. Unlike any other Choice Specs user, you don't even need to predict. If there is no Altaria, there are no viable switch-ins. Any wall brave enough to stand up to Charizard is outsped and KO'd the next turn by a second Fire Blast. Anything that doesn't invest is pretty much dead.

Charizard works better in the sun, but it can still work really well outside of the sun. Some variants I've seen are the subroost set or a substitute + 3 attacks variant. Although it doesn't have Specs power since roost and Solar Power are not compatible, its speed and power still make it really good. It is still powerful, but it loses the 1.5 boost from the sun and the specs boost, which sucks for it a little bit.

That being said, Charizard needs to switch in correctly in the sun, and needs something else to set up sun if it wants the virtue of spamming. However, on a sun team, I see Torkoal being a good partner for it. It can set up Sunny Day (which gets rid of its Water weakness) and spin, while it powers up its own Lava Plume, and a burn can present switch-in opportunities for Torkoal. While this is mostly theory, I can see it working.

That's my opinion at least. Charizard is really good though, and it will be really big for the tier.

 

[Steamroll]

I've been abusing this guy way too much. So much to the point that I find Choice Specs obsolete to the Life Orb set. The Life Orb set offers similarly powerful attacks with the ability to switch between moves freely, whereas SpecsZard will likely have to switch out more than once so that it can avoid getting revenged by mons such as Samurott and the abundant Absol. Charizard definitely has its advantages in sun, but it is subject to dying incredibly fast due to Solar Power (Roost doesn't help at all, tbh). I usually use it to either punch through teams mid game or just clean up late. Zard is also taken down by its own benefits with sun being up. Every. Single. Chlorophyll. Sweeper. Can outspeed and kill Zard with their attacks, Victreebel with Sludge Bomb, Eggy with Psychic, Sawsbuck with Frustration and even Tangela with HP Rock. Outside of sun Charizard is open to quite a few more checks like Flareon, Grumpig, Miltank, Altaria and I guess Regirock if you don't have other options.

 

[Cherub Agent]

But.. Roost isn't even legal with Solar Power. Only with Blaze. Also, why shouldn't SolarBeam be used over HP Grass? No permanent weather setters in the tier, and Pokemon that set up RD can be seen from a mile away, and just KOed by Fire Blast. Also, while Charizard is obviously an extremely threatening Pokemon, it basically has to be run with Cryagonal, because SR NEEDS to be gone. No other NU Spinner can guarantee that, and with SR on the field Charizard will probably only get one KO per match, before it's revenge killed. For this reason, I personally prefer ScarfZard to SpecsZard.

Also, has anyone tried physical sets? SD seems pretty outclassed by the Special choice sets, due to higher damage output, but Dragon Dance seems like an interesting option due to the Speed boost that it provides. Charizard has perfect coverage between Flare Blitz and Earthquake anyway, so Roost can be used. This set is however easily walled by Alomomola and Regirock, however. There seems no point to BellyZard, due to the lack of Salac Berry at the moment.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Also, has anyone tried physical sets? SD seems pretty outclassed by the Special choice sets, due to higher damage output, but Dragon Dance seems like an interesting option due to the Speed boost that it provides. Charizard has perfect coverage between Flare Blitz and Earthquake anyway, so Roost can be used. This set is however easily walled by Alomomola and Regirock, however. There seems no point to BellyZard, due to the lack of Salac Berry at the moment.

SuperJOCKE actually ran a pretty successful SD set; it can surprise counters such as Specially Defensive Flareon and sweep late-game once it gets an SD up [this is easy, with the number of switches Charizard forces], but the problem is that SD Charizard NEEDS Rapid Spin support. Otherwise, it will probably get only one KO at best before killing itself with Flare Blitz recoil. I guess SD / Flare Blitz / EQ / Roost can work pretty well with Cryogonal.

Dragon Dance doesn't seem too appealing, to be honest. Charizard has a very decent base 100 Speed, so I would prefer getting an instant +2 boost to Attack to sweep. As you said, it is also walled easily at +1 because of its average base 84 Attack.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Flareon's not the best example dude, since Charizard can OHKO it without any boosts at all (SD or DD). Dragon Dance at least prevents Charizard from being revenge killed by Choice Scarf users. This is assuming a Jolly nature with a Life Orb. If Flareon runs max HP/SpD, a +0 EQ deals between 95.2% - 112.6%. If Charizard nabs a DD, even physically defensive Flareon is OHKOd without entry hazards. So in my opinion Swords Dance is only useful for a meatier hit on Regirock with Earthquake, but i still don't think that it can OHKO.

OK, so I ran some calcs. Both SD and DD Charizard manage to 2HKO Regirock with Spikes/Stealth Rock. However, DD barely scrapes through, and Regirock can gain HP back with Protect. Also, if it switches in on a SD or a DD, you're screwed; the only way physical Zard can beat Regirock is if its already got a boost and Regirock switches in on Earthquake. Not good at all. So great partners for physical boosting Zard are obviously Pokemon such as Torterra or SpecsEggy, since they easily deal with Regirock, Alomomola and Quagsire, Zard's worts nightmares. Yep, DD Zard is perfectly viable as long as its paired with a Grass-type.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Flareon's not the best example dude, since Charizard can OHKO it without any boosts at all (SD or DD). Dragon Dance at least prevents Charizard from being revenge killed by Choice Scarf users. This is assuming a Jolly nature with a Life Orb. If Flareon runs max HP/SpD, a +0 EQ deals between 95.2% - 112.6%. If Charizard nabs a DD, even physically defensive Flareon is OHKOd without entry hazards. So in my opinion Swords Dance is only useful for a meatier hit on Regirock with Earthquake, but i still don't think that it can OHKO.

I think you misunderstood me there, Cherub. I was talking about Charizard surprising checks to its special attacking sets by running a SD / DD set and Earthquake.

After running some calcs of my own, however, I found out one other minor thing that makes SD superior to DD. After a SD, Charizard cleanly OHKOes standard Tangela even without sun after SR [89.82 - 105.98%]. Admittedly, Tangela won't be switching into Charizard anytime soon [especially since most Charizard are special anyway], but this still helps immensely as Charizard can open up a sweep for something like Scarf Sawk.

Bottomline is, SD is more of a powerful wallbreaker which can punch holes mid- to late-game, while DD is for sweeping weakened offensive teams once Absol / other priority users and the walls which Cherub mentioned are gone. RP Torterra and Specs Exeggutor make great teammates for both sets; while the former is usable on pretty much any team, the latter is only seen on sun teams, so I guess Torterra is better if you are using Charizard on a non-sun team.

 

[Cherub Agent]

yeah, I misunderstood, good point. I thought you meant that only SD Zard could KO Flareon lol. The fact that it can take out its normal counters really does open up holes in your opponents' team that other team members can exploit. Also nice find on the Tangela KO, it's a shame DD Charizard can't manage that, I'm surprised. :/

 

[tennisace]

I really wish Charizard had more attack because I would be all over SubDD Charizard in like 5 seconds...

Anyway, Charizard is basically exactly what we thought it would be: a nuke in the sun, hits weaker than Magmortar outside of sun, has enough speed to take care of unboosted Pokemon, but everyone carries at least one Pokemon to revenge kill it on an offensive team. The fact that it takes 50% from SR really really hurts it on normal teams, since on a sun team it only needs to come in once to do some serious damage to the opponent. I've tried Charizard on non-sun teams, and really the extra speed is only good for dealing with Sawsbuck (and there are plenty of better ways). Basically: if you're gonna run Sun, use Charizard. Else, use Magmortar since it gets better coverage and is harder to deal with since it has 16 more SpA. The extra speed is nice, but isn't necessary to beat up slower teams, and for faster teams there are better options than both Magmortar and Charizard.

 

[DTC]

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Choice Specs Charizard in the sun doesn't have to predict if there is no Cloud Nine Altaria; Flash Fire Pokemon such as Flareon and Rapidash can switch into Fire Blast without taking any damage. There's also a few select Pokemon that can tank a Fire Blast such as Corsola and Omanyte. (Not some of the other moves, however) There's not that much prediction involved, but there is some.

Speaking of Flash Fire Rapidash, it's one of the best Choice Specs Charizard checks. Switch into Fire Blast or SolarBeam and have SR up and Charizard is basically dead, unless they spin away your hazards before Charizard comes back in. Rapidash is a pain in the ass for sun teams to deal with in general.

Anyways, outside of the sun, Charizard's main niche is its ability to Roost off damage. Magmortar is generally better at using Choice Specs thanks to its better Special Attack stat, only 2x weakness to SR, superior coverage, and the ability to switch into sleep-inducing attacks thanks to Vital Spirit. Of course, Charizard is faster and has extra resistances, and Air Slash is kind of cute, but otherwise Magmortar is better. However, unlike Charizard, Magmortar can't Roost off damage; the damage it takes is what it'll have for the rest of the match unless you provide Magmortar with Wish support.

All in all, Charizard is quite a cool Pokemon to use in NU with its high Special Attack, Speed, Roost, and nice resistances. It is very powerful but has a huge weakness in SR. How do you compensate Charizard for that weakness? Do you use it on your team anyways, or do you usually provide it with Rapid Spin support? I think that Rapid Spin support isn't really needed as Charizard can just Roost off the damage, and the Rapid Spin'ers in NU are either weak to Stealth Rock, not that good at spinning, not that good outside of spinning, or not that good at both.