Choice Specs - the goggles that do nothing?

With Choice Band managing to break the 6x Leftovers monotony in Advance and the DP metagame shaping up to be more offensive than it's 386 pokemon counterpart, the addition of 'Choice' items for Speed and Special Attack seemed as though they would, along with the original Choice Band, find their way on to a lot of teams.

Anyway I looked at some RMTs as mentioned in the note and here is what I found:

Teams: 20

Choice Band users: 10
Choice Scarf users: 8
Choice Specs users: 3

Even the threat list really only has four potential Choice Specs users (Alakazam, Sceptile, Starmie, and Salamence), and really only the last two of which tend to get any real consideration on RMTs.

NOTE: Usage statistics here are from the first 20 non-locked RMTs. I realize this doesn't reflect usage but considering there really aren't a lot of users submitted quality teams at this point this is a fairly accurate representation of what our board is outputting at this point. I also skipped a few RMTs that were clearly made by people with a fundamental lack of understanding about how competitive pokemon works - you'll simply have to trust my discretion in doing so.

I think there are a lot of reasons why the planned usage of this item is so low, but I'd say the two main ones are as follows:

Lack of Experience using the item

I could be wrong on this but outside of Slaking I don't really recall Choice Band being used a whole lot in early RS(albeit many of the good CB users are 386 only and we were mainly playing 200 then), and I would wager that is used at least 3-4x as much now as it was four years ago. While we've all seen(over. and over. and over.) how effective Choice Band have seen, there are very few of us who have a copy of Diamond or Pearl or Battle Revolution right now, and even fewer who actually battle online, so at least first hand very, very few people have used Choice Specs or been a victim of them, so I think lack of exposure probably contributes to the lack of use.

Choice Band vs. Choice Specs vs. Choice Scarf

The other main reason I think people are probably hesitant to put Specs on pokemon or use the item in general is the fact that loading up your team with more than one or two Choice- item pokemon greatly limits your options and makes every prediction matter even more than it did before. As such, Choice Specs are directly competing with the other Choice items for slots on teams.

vs. Choice Band

I think a lot of immediate problems come to mind here, but the most obvious is a basic difference between special and physical attacks. When you think of special sweepers I think one of two things will probably come to mind - some sort of Calm Mind(or Scheme now) + sweep(Slowbro, Raikou, Alakazam, Azelf, etc.), or a pokemon that uses attack variety to avoid needing to switch and to defeat a variety of pokemon and be difficult to predict against, most notably with boltbeam (PorygonZ, Starmie, Gengar, etc.). The concept with a choice- type item don't work terribly well with either of these niches, which forces a bit of a strategy change.

The other thing that hurts the specs here is the lack of a few key moves - we all know how ridiculously prevalent Earthquake is. Nearly every physical sweeper can learn it, it has good coverage and is just generally a wonderful attack due to it's accuracy and power. 100 power/accuracy isn't something that any widely available special attack can match - the closest equivalent is probably something like Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, which are both weaker and less widely available. Another major killer is the lack of a Focus Punch equivalent - while it certainly isn't as widely learnable as Earthquake, it was a horrible dangerous move on pokemon like Tyranitar and Heracross, for example, because one correct prediction with it was lights out for nearly everything that didn't resist fighting.

vs. Choice Scarf

There's much less of a direct comparison here so there isn't nearly as much for me to say, but what it basically boils down to here is that in a lot of ways the Scarf allows you to put the prediction in the hands of your opponent. With the specs(and CB), you're forced to make a difficult, high risk high reward prediction, whereas with the Scarf it's mostly a matter of if your opponent figures out you have it before you can exploit it. I think in most cases the Scarf is going to be a lot easier to execute, which is certainly going to promote it's usage.


Anyway I guess to get to the point of where I'm going - do you consider the Specs as viable as the other two Choice items? Do you plan on using it? Flaws/discussion/etc.
 
Anyway I guess to get to the point of where I'm going - do you consider the Specs as viable as the other two Choice items? Do you plan on using it? Flaws/discussion/etc.
Salami alone is a good reason to use Specs. This item forces the usage of Bliss/Cress, which all can be wiped by Heracross. Yes, it's a great item.
 
I think the main problem is that the best physical tanks, like Rhyperior, Skarm, Weezing etc often take a fuck off load from a neutral-attack CB user.

However the best special tank, Blissey, takes pathetic amounts from even the strongest Choice Specs attacks.

That could be a reason?
 
One thing is, though, that a mono CB team can work, while an AG Team gets singlehandedly overthrown by Blissey unless they have a physical move
 
Special based pokemon tend to be more vulnerable defensively and in an environment in which most people are trying to cover weaknesses, that makes choice glasses difficult to fit in.

But wait! "Salamence" you argue: yes, it has intimidate and yes it has half decent defenses... BUT what does Salamence reliably switch into nowadays? Everything and its mother carries ice beam from Garchomp hype. Fighting pokemon now have stone edge and only need one good prediction to cripple/kill Mence. Stealth rock is heavily abused and sandstream nibbles continuously at its heels. Salamence can't even switch into itself anymore.

Special attackers are easier to wall too. Electric, fire, water, ghost and psychic all have things immune to them meaning that a single misprediction at best costs you the initiative, and at worst costs you a pokemon. Compare that to physical counterparts where the immunities to earthquake tend to suffer from stealth rock. Lastly, there is no physical equivalent of Blissey either.
 
Well, I think that SpecsMence and maybe SpecsGar are the only 2 pokes that can success with that item equiped. And SpecsMence will be a HUGE threat, only countered by Blissey and Cresselia...
 
Special based pokemon tend to be more vulnerable defensively and in an environment in which most people are trying to cover weaknesses, that makes choice glasses difficult to fit in.

But wait! "Salamence" you argue: yes, it has intimidate and yes it has half decent defenses... BUT what does Salamence reliably switch into nowadays? Everything and its mother carries ice beam from Garchomp hype. Fighting pokemon now have stone edge and only need one good prediction to cripple/kill Mence. Stealth rock is heavily abused and sandstream nibbles continuously at its heels. Salamence can't even switch into itself anymore.

Special attackers are easier to wall too. Electric, fire, water, ghost and psychic all have things immune to them meaning that a single misprediction at best costs you the initiative, and at worst costs you a pokemon. Compare that to physical counterparts where the immunities to earthquake tend to suffer from stealth rock. Lastly, there is no physical equivalent of Blissey either.
Yeah, you hit it right on the nail. RIGHT on the nail.
 
Choice Scarf PoryZ is really good IMO.


PorygonZ@ Choice Scarf
Modest
Ability: Download
192 Speed/ 252 Spc. Attack/ 64 HP
-Tri Attack
-Thunder Bolt
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse
 
Anyway I looked at some RMTs as mentioned in the note and here is what I found:

Teams: 20

Choice Band users: 10
Choice Scarf users: 8
Choice Specs users: 3
Thanks for doing the research! You should update this in about a week.


I think a lot of immediate problems come to mind here, but the most obvious is a basic difference between special and physical attacks. When you think of special sweepers I think one of two things will probably come to mind - some sort of Calm Mind(or Scheme now) + sweep(Slowbro, Raikou, Alakazam, Azelf, etc.), or a pokemon that uses attack variety to avoid needing to switch and to defeat a variety of pokemon and be difficult to predict against, most notably with boltbeam (PorygonZ, Starmie, Gengar, etc.). The concept with a choice- type item don't work terribly well with either of these niches, which forces a bit of a strategy change.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this directly, but it does bring up something that I remarked back in early february: Many special sweepers are more useful to their teams with stat-upping moves or just plain different options. Physical sweepers (with plentiful exceptions, don't get me wrong) frequently seem custom-built for choice band. Although their are plenty of physical pokes with good stat upping moves, it is just more useful sometimes to hit your opponent with and immediate Earthquake/Focus punch/Rock slide than it is to hit them with an immediate thunderbolt/flamethrower/ice beam, as you yourself pointed out.

In summation, I think that you'll need a larger (on the order of 50) sample size of RMTs before making any conclusions. As I said, update this in about a week.
 
There's a lack of tankish special threats, as well. Consider some of the most popular RSE CB choices: Metagross, Heracross, Tyranitar, Salamence. All of them can take a hit, often an unSTABbed 2x SE hit.

Other than Salamence, what special threats can take a hit while still having usable moveset diversity? Certainly not Gengar, PorygonZ, Alakazam, or Sceptile. The special threats that can take a hit (bulky waters, for example) tend to have poor attack diversity (compared to the five or six or even seven types some physical attackers can attack in) and tempting support pools (including healing moves in particular).

On the subject of move diversity, there's a lot more special-type -> physical attack bleed than vice versa. You have the elemental punches, the elemental fangs, Dark's best attacks turning physical, Water becoming equal-opportunty, and so on. On the other hand, as for good special attacks in what used to be physical types you have some pretty middling attacks, poorly distributed and largely unremarkable except for type coverage, like Zen Headbutt, Shadow Ball, and Land Power. (Focus Bomb is a bit of an exception.)

That said, there's eventually going to be a metagame breaker set of attacks on some special attacking threat, similar to how Boltbeam hit just about everything in Adv OU. (Admittedly, it was useful for making a utility Poke or a stat-upper able to attack usefully, not something that necessarily works for a Choice Spec'cer, but if I knew what the metagame breaking Choice Spec user was, I'd just post that.) We don't have it yet, but I'll bet it'll happen once everyne gets over thinking Adv style and starts looking at special attacks in types that are usually mostly physical.

I think the big effect of Choice Specs, at least initially, is going to be its effect in theory instead of in practice; it does a lot to chase away some of the iffier Adv special walls, like Snorlax and Cradily. It's now possible for one of the CSpec'ced special threats to 2HKO such Pokemon with a neutral hit, so they aren't quite as safe to switch in on an unscouted special attacker as they used to be.
 
There's a lack of tankish special threats, as well. Consider some of the most popular RSE CB choices: Metagross, Heracross, Tyranitar, Salamence. All of them can take a hit, often an unSTABbed 2x SE hit.
Very good point; I didn't think of that, and come to think of it, the only special tanks that have good move diversity that I can think of off the top of my head are tankish in DEFENSE and spcl. attack, and not SPCL. DEFENSE and spcl. attack.

(Focus Bomb is a bit of an exception.)
That's a pretty goddamn huge exception in my view.

You're right about the gamebreaking set part. I just hope it happens sooner rather than later.
 
That said, there's eventually going to be a metagame breaker set of attacks on some special attacking threat, similar to how Boltbeam hit just about everything in Adv OU. (Admittedly, it was useful for making a utility Poke or a stat-upper able to attack usefully, not something that necessarily works for a Choice Spec'cer, but if I knew what the metagame breaking Choice Spec user was, I'd just post that.) We don't have it yet, but I'll bet it'll happen once everyne gets over thinking Adv style and starts looking at special attacks in types that are usually mostly physical.

Very nice thought. If we can look at what attack types are useful in the Physical Metagame when attacking, Rock, Ground, Bug (Hera, mainly =P), Dark, (Oddly enough, CS Hera's standard attack types. XD) and see what kind of type coverage it gives compared to another set of Sp. Attacks we could likely find a reliable group of Sp. Attacks that can cover the same amount of commonly seen types. Hard part is, finding a good Sp. Attacker with some survivability and able to cover as many types.

Also worth mentioning, once a working Sp. Attacker is found, it'll likely obliterate that time's heavily ATT + DEF based metagame because there's a tendency that high ATT + DEF pokes lack decent Sp. DEF.
 
You're right about the gamebreaking set part. I just hope it happens sooner rather than later.

Look out its Choice Specs Blissey!

Blissey @ Choice Specs
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk
Trait: Natural Cure
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Grass Rope
-Shadow Ball

Oh noez!
 
There's a lack of tankish special threats, as well. Consider some of the most popular RSE CB choices: Metagross, Heracross, Tyranitar, Salamence. All of them can take a hit, often an unSTABbed 2x SE hit.

Other than Salamence, what special threats can take a hit while still having usable moveset diversity? Certainly not Gengar, PorygonZ, Alakazam, or Sceptile. The special threats that can take a hit (bulky waters, for example) tend to have poor attack diversity (compared to the five or six or even seven types some physical attackers can attack in) and tempting support pools (including healing moves in particular).

Mismagius has 3 immunities and 105 Base SD, along with Tbolt/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Energy Ball/Hidden Power. Claydol tends to have better things to do, but it still has Land Power/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Ice Beam/Grass Knot. Of course, the SA doesn't scream sweeper. Charizard has decent SD and HP, at least in the same league as Heracross. Gardevoir takes special hits like nothing. Grumpig is a bit slow but also has Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Energy Ball/Grass Knot. Mesprit could also be used, with Base 105 in both defenses and base 105 SA. Arcanine is about the same defensively as Salamence statwise. Choice Specs Regice would indeed be LOL.

Really, a lot of the stuff is UU that has decent SA and SD, but the rest of the stats are too mediocre to stand up to the big-hitting standards.

Otherwise the general point is made.
 
[Focus Bomb is] a pretty goddamn huge exception in my view.
It illustrates clearly the problem, though. Other than type, it's Blizzard with a weaker side effect. People don't use Blizzard unless they don't have a choice.

Mismagius has 3 immunities and 105 Base SD, along with Tbolt/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Energy Ball/Hidden Power. Claydol tends to have better things to do, but it still has Land Power/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Ice Beam/Grass Knot. Of course, the SA doesn't scream sweeper. Charizard has decent SD and HP, at least in the same league as Heracross. Gardevoir takes special hits like nothing. Grumpig is a bit slow but also has Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Energy Ball/Grass Knot. Mesprit could also be used, with Base 105 in both defenses and base 105 SA. Arcanine is about the same defensively as Salamence statwise. Choice Specs Regice would indeed be LOL.

Really, a lot of the stuff is UU that has decent SA and SD, but the rest of the stats are too mediocre to stand up to the big-hitting standards.

Otherwise the general point is made.

I think this is where Choice Specs are going to find their best use. Not on Claydol, but on special attackers that don't need their support movepool to stay in the fight and with enough movepool diversity to threaten the metagame.

However, there's still something of a lack of the STAB Meteor Mash/Stone Edge/Megahorn/Focus Punch you tend to see on some of the OU choice banders. (Even the ones with bad movepools still have stuff like Earthquake.) Having one attack you can throw at pretty much any switch and know you're going to dent something is a big part of using a choice item effectively.
 
I notice another problem. A lot of CB users also have huge speed (Dodrio, Aerodactyl, Salamence) or at least high speed if they want to compensate their not-so-bulkiness. Looking at what Deck Knight posted, you see that Gardevoir, Grumpig, Mespirit and all don't have that high speed and aren't all that bulky.
As such, wouldn't Espeon be a prime candidate? It can take special hits like Gardevoir can, and it can outspeed quite a lot. Its SPA isn't anything to laugh at either.
 
Starmie, Alakazam, Azelf and Gengar are easily some of the best Choice Specs candidates because of their versatility and power, but they get shut down by that 180 that Pursuit made from RS to DP. There's a load of Dark-types that like to switch into Psychic or come in after they kill something, and also Heracross, and they cannot do a lot about it when they've worked in their way properly.

I'm also not fond of Choice items in general in DP, because giving ANYTHING a free turn is a risk for you regardless what Pokemon you're using the Choice item on. If you're firing a Thunderbolt, Garchomp gets a Swords Dance. Using Earthquake gets you battered by Salamence, Gengar or Gyarados. Any Normal move is Gengar, Tyranitar or Rhyperior bait. All of these can be so insanely powerful that you'll want to widen your and their options as much as possible - you're definitely not staying in when you're locked into an ineffective move which makes your moves more predictable, but if you can still put a hurting in your opponent despite possibly losing the one on one duel, it isn't as easy for them to simply select a move that hits the counter the hardest.
 
Lucario

Lucario @ Choice Specs
Modest 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
~Aura Sphere
~Dark Pulse
~Dragon Pulse
~Psychic


STAB Aura Sphere off 541 Special attack does a number on Blissey. you can 2HKO most Blissey with this set. handles Cress pretty well too and has genuinely good type coverage. it's not really all that bulky though. Still it's worth mentioning that Lucario is the only choice spec's user that can counter Bliss and Cress without needing Focus Blast.
 
Archmaster, what about Togekiss? Its got a higher Base SA also gets Aura Sphere, and Shadow Ball for Cress.. I guess it wasnt mentioned because it has better things to do than Choice Specs I assume...
 
Perhaps Special Sweeper are more usable with a Thunder Wave or Calm Mind.

Starmie, a "Only-Attack" Sweeper (Even so, some of them has recover),
need it's variable movepool to win. No one would like to use a Specs starmie's surf in a Vaporeon.

I think Alakazam would be the best choice. Even so, it would be the Hit and Run-like.

Sceptile don't have a considerable special moves (energy Ball and Dragon Pulse??)


Salamence? Yeah, Its cool. It would be Flamethower, Hydro Pump (Great Super effective variety here), Dragon Pulse (Only Steel is strong against it, so its a certain damage) and a Hidden Power of your choice (for sala, maybe ground, eletric or grass.)

Lucario is to a good one. Flash Cannon and Aura Sphere, STAB. Shadow ball and HP.

But the problem, both Sala and Luca, is their speed. Lucario ist even better because of its Steel resistance. But sala can be dead with a Ice Beam or a good rock Slide before Attacks.

We have even Roserade 125 base Spc Attack. energy ball, slugde bomb, shadow ball and HP.

The Best one, in my opinion, would be the Special-Thunder-Aerodactyl: Jolteon

Even with one move not-sweepa (Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, HP,...)or maybe whock wave for thats anoying double teamers, It would ROCK, because of its speed. It can faint a Aero, Starmie, Vaporeon, (HP Ice) Salamente, Roserade, Togekiss, (HP Grass) Swampert, Ttar, Rhyperior, and so, a list of new-OU pokés.


To me, Jolteon can do it.
 
Perhaps Special Sweeper are more usable with a Thunder Wave or Calm Mind.

Starmie, a "Only-Attack" Sweeper (Even so, some of them has recover),
need it's variable movepool to win. No one would like to use a Specs starmie's surf in a Vaporeon.

I think Alakazam would be the best choice. Even so, it would be the Hit and Run-like.

Sceptile don't have a considerable special moves (energy Ball and Dragon Pulse??)


Salamence? Yeah, Its cool. It would be Flamethower, Hydro Pump (Great Super effective variety here), Dragon Pulse (Only Steel is strong against it, so its a certain damage) and a Hidden Power of your choice (for sala, maybe ground, eletric or grass.)

Lucario is to a good one. Flash Cannon and Aura Sphere, STAB. Shadow ball and HP.

But the problem, both Sala and Luca, is their speed. Lucario ist even better because of its Steel resistance. But sala can be dead with a Ice Beam or a good rock Slide before Attacks.

We have even Roserade 125 base Spc Attack. energy ball, slugde bomb, shadow ball and HP.

The Best one, in my opinion, would be the Special-Thunder-Aerodactyl: Jolteon

Even with one move not-sweepa (Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, HP,...)or maybe whock wave for thats anoying double teamers, It would ROCK, because of its speed. It can faint a Aero, Starmie, Vaporeon, (HP Ice) Salamente, Roserade, Togekiss, (HP Grass) Swampert, Ttar, Rhyperior, and so, a list of new-OU pokés.


To me, Jolteon can do it.

CSpecs Sceptile is pretty good, actually. Leaf Storm / HP Fire / Dragon Pulse / Focus Blast hits everything in the game at least neutral, and STAB CSpec Leaf Storm does a LOT of damage to a lot of things.
 
Figured that I should contribute at least one concrete set:

Gardevoir w/ Choice specs
Thunderbolt
Psychic
Energy ball
Focus blast

It's a gyarados counter if you choose the "trace" trait, but "Synchronize" might be better in general.

But, as to what was pointed out by (I think) Você, even Gardevoir has better things to do:

Gardevoir w/Leftovers
Hypnosis
Will-o-wisp
Psychic
Focus blast

Shit! Mekkah is right about that pursuit thing.

PS: potential tankish choice specs candidate: Slowking
 
Just because it can:

Tyranitar@ Choice Scarf
Modest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: TBD, but plenty of Speed and SAtk
-Pursuit/ Focus Blast / Focus Punch/ HP Rock/ HP Grass/ Surf
-Thunder Bolt
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse

T-tar's so called 'counters' are in for a bit of a surprise.
 
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