Pokémon Clefable (Revamp)

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Wait wait wait.

Why the hell is Cosmic Power not listed at all?!

CP Clefable is insane, it just eats up all those hits like it's a dragon ffs.
You don't have to analyze the set or anything (Well, it would be beneficial...) but, at least mention it in the move pool. Okay? :D

Nice Revamp though, n-n
To quote the OP

"NOTE: Do not use Cosmic Power Clefable, it relies on multiple boosts to deal damage with a non-STAB Stored Power, and is full-on set-up bait, not to mention the zero offensive capabilities it has to actually become a threat to teams. It is also prone to being critted and OHKOed."

Bolts why
 
Wait wait wait.

Why the hell is Cosmic Power not listed at all?!

CP Clefable is insane, it just eats up all those hits like it's a dragon ffs.
You don't have to analyze the set or anything (Well, it would be beneficial...) but, at least mention it in the move pool. Okay? :D

Nice Revamp though, n-n
Cosmic Power is going unmentioned because it lacks the kind of power CM gets, even with Stored Power, and Clefable's a bit strapped for moveslots between needing Stored Power, Fire Move, Moonlight/Soft-Boiled, Cosmic Power, Moonblast. Without the inherent boost of CM vs CP only boosting Stored Power, Clefable has a hard time breaking Dark types (some like base Houndoom outright can't be touched and set up themselves), and is generally set-up bait/free switch-in for any non-frail target that's immune/resistant to Stored Power like Victini, Heatran, Mega Sableye, the previously mentioned Houndoom, etc.

252+ SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 91-107 (23.6 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 58-68 (19.9 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 125-147 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Clefable needs CM's boost if it wants to take an offensive approach, which tends to be the only way it's not outclassed in some of its roles. It's abilities let it sit against a lot of types of damage, but with Cosmic Power all it can do is sit there, sometimes waiting for a Crit or the opponent to status/set-up on it.

Boosting only defenses is not going to let you scare the opponent out, since often they will carry an offensive mon able to boost. Heck, an opposing Sp Def Clefable can use you for set-up bait while you boost and come out on top
+1 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 149-176 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Let's assume opposing Clefable switches in on your first Cosmic Power with Unaware
252+ SpA Clefable Stored Power (140 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 61-72 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Plus, Stored Power isn't that much better than a boosted Moonblast
252+ SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 250-295 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 390-460 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In the time it would take you to max out Stored Power, CM Clefable reaches the same boost in bulk, and outdamages with no investment or nature, while also getting the power boost to Fire Blast.

tl;dr Cosmic Power Clefable is in every way inferior to any other boosting Clefable or Boosting Pokemon set. Do not use

Posting in spite of being beaten to the punch.
 
The EV spread for magic guard set is well reasoned and explained clearly, I like it. However, might there be some advantages to phys defense magic guard? Bold nature and 200 or so def EVs (depends on certain spdef benchmarks)? For example, going full phys def can come into play when taking landorus-t earthquakes, SD gliscor earthquakes, AV azumarill playroughs, and breloom bullet seeds. This is as opposed to taking thunderus-t tbolts and kyu-b ice beams (the given examples).

By no means am I suggesting anything is wrong at all with the given spread. At a glance, it really does seem like full phys defense works better with unaware instead of magic guard. But then again, magic guard is the superior ability overall, assuming a team can handle the various boosters out there. And blending the benefits of the ability with a different set of (physical) things it can check could make for a good set. I'm imagining a team that has some few possible answers for thundy and could use a physically sturdier clefable instead.

With 95/73/90 defenses there is no shortage of possible theorymon defensive benchmarks. If you look close enough you can probably find an obscure avoidable 2hko or 3hko somewhere out there for every 4 evs invested. And I don't mean to clutter an otherwise organized-right-from-the-start thread. But then again, this is the place to discuss clefable after all. And while I don't want to argue about the pros and cons of all the bloated movepool possibilities out there, I would like to toss a few defensive ideas around. For starters

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 52 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Softboiled
- ???
- ???



Physically what does it do that the more SpDef oriented set doesn't?

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (41.8 - 49.4%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (42.1 - 49.7%)
252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (41.1 - 48.7%)
252 Atk Tyranitar Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (42.1 - 49.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (39.8 - 47.4%)
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (44.4 - 52.5%)
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (43.1 - 50.7%)
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Clefable: (43.4 - 51%)



The 52 spdef EVs cover only one real purpose

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Clefable: (84.5 - 99.7%)



Overall the calcs are some admittedly niche stuff but a few of them do jump out at me. The landorus-t calc is the first one I mention because I really appreciate having multiple makeshift answers to that pokemon. When it can always just u-turn away sometimes you need to get damage on it with whatever is on the field and having multiple pokemon that can take earthquakes can be very beneficial. A note worth mentioning is that if your leftovers ever gets knocked off it's really, really important for attacks to do <50% damage (latios in particular). This can come into play pretty often when clef is a go-to dark absorber. So it really might be the case that some teams will be better off with a more physically defensive magic guard clef.

Again I'd like to reiterate that while it might seem natural to go with unaware instead, magic guard is most definitely the superior ability and retaining that immunity to hazard/status damage combined with checking some extra physical threats might overall make the set have some true utility when compared with the standard set listed first. Hopefully some other people can weigh in with their opinions on specialized defensive spreads. Movesets, not so much; with a movepool this thing has there's just no end to the possibilities and it's hard to suggest any sort of end-all-be-all combo of just 4 moves. Stats and EVs on the other hand are more focused and lend themselves to deeper analysis, so I'm curious what you all have to say.
 

DarkNostalgia

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Yeah Clefable is pretty flexible, guess there are loads of sets for Clef.

Garchomp, T-tar and Talonflame aren't relevant at all though, since the former two don't run Iron Head and Talonflame stops Clef cold unless it runs T-wave/Thunderbolt.
 

bludz

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I tend to run 184 Def / 72 SpDef+ on Magic Guard Clefable. LO Thundurus still can't 2HKO after Leftovers and but this spread negates LO Latios' Psyshock from having any chance to 2HKO (160 Def leaves a 5% chance) which also improves your odds pretty drastically if you lost your leftovers. I wouldn't be opposed to a more defensively oriented set but I do enjoy tanking Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pumps reliably and either of Diancie's STAB attacks well.

To be honest the standard spread is pretty solid, I think once you've had some experience with what you really want your Clefable to tank you can tweak EVs to best suit your team.
 

DarkNostalgia

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Ok so those posts about CP fable got deleted, thank you based mods. But anyway, I've seen some people use spreads of 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SDef on Clefable with Calm, does this achieve anything that CM Fable doesn't do? (Aside from Latios' Psyshock?)
 
That spread also avoids the 2HKO from LO Thundurus, LO Kyurrm-B, and offensive Mega Lopunny

Edit to below: ya I did oops
 
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i've been using this nasty knock off/thunder wave clef to assist non hp ground volc in getting past heatran and trolling in general. obviously it doesn't deserve it's own set but those moves should be listed somewhere.
 
Now that we know mega-metagross is staying. It should be stated that T-wave clef variants are even better then ever. Not only can it reduce her usual checks like heatran set up bait now she can serve as a lure to permanently cripple meta-gross making the Tyrant easier to handle for rest of team. Yeah she wont ever beat metagross 1-1 but a crippled metagross is still better then a healthy metagross in terms of battling and it emphasizes just how versitile clefable is even in the presence of a supposed hard counter.

I wonder tho if there is any untapped potential in clefable. She has alot of sets and alot of move but I wonder if there is anything still out there were yet to see from our queen on fairies
 

AM

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Now that we know mega-metagross is staying. It should be stated that T-wave clef variants are even better then ever. Not only can it reduce her usual checks like heatran set up bait now she can serve as a lure to permanently cripple meta-gross making the Tyrant easier to handle for rest of team. Yeah she wont ever beat metagross 1-1 but a crippled metagross is still better then a healthy metagross in terms of battling and it emphasizes just how versitile clefable is even in the presence of a supposed hard counter.

I wonder tho if there is any untapped potential in clefable. She has alot of sets and alot of move but I wonder if there is anything still out there were yet to see from our queen on fairies
Ice Beam, Icy Wind, Encore, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Psychic, Psyshock, Grass Knot, Magic Coat, Life Orb Tank set with Soft Boiled or Healing Wish, "speedy Life Orb" Clefable with just Timid nature and speed investment to outpace stuff like M-Venusaur, Rotom-W, Defensive Lando-T. There's a lot of options so experiment.
 
Ice Beam, Icy Wind, Encore, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Psychic, Psyshock, Grass Knot, Magic Coat, Life Orb Tank set with Soft Boiled or Healing Wish, "speedy Life Orb" Clefable with just Timid nature and speed investment to outpace stuff like M-Venusaur, Rotom-W, Defensive Lando-T. There's a lot of options so experiment.
Indeed clefable, has the move pool of the gods and has just the right level of stats (barely) to pull it off. I was advised to use this set, to help my team against mega sableye


Magic gaurd
calm
252 Hp / 160 Def / 96 SpD
~Moon blast
~Soft-boilded
~Healing Wish
~Stealth Rock


With magic gaurd, clefable has acss to reliable recovery in softboiled and imunity to passive damage. Moon blast acts as th typical stab of clfable, while he supports the the team with stealth rock and healing wish. With healing wish clefable now can help teams that have wall breakrs or sweepers, with a new lease of life, the best example being talonflame who often finds himself with low health due to recoil, but healing wish allows the smogon bird and others to have a second lease of life. Not only that but it will supprise your opponent seeing their metagross face to face with talonflame back in action as an example, the supprise factor of allowing a counter/sweeper/ect. get a new life can be pretty huge at times. Stealth rock is just what my team required and you can vary the defenive clefable set to your needs, say adding wish for some healing support or flamethrower to nuke some steel switch ins.
 
Is there any possiblity that Shadow Ball can get a mention in the other moves section? Shadow Ball certainly doesn't have the SE coverage that Flamethrower or Focus-Miss hold, but it does have near perfect neutral coverage with Moonblast. The only thing off the top of my head that resists both Fairy+Ghost is Pyroar, which is unviable in OU.
 

boltsandbombers

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Is there any possiblity that Shadow Ball can get a mention in the other moves section? Shadow Ball certainly doesn't have the SE coverage that Flamethrower or Focus-Miss hold, but it does have near perfect neutral coverage with Moonblast. The only thing off the top of my head that resists both Fairy+Ghost is Pyroar, which is unviable in OU.
I mean, just because it has really good coverage alongside clefables stab doesn't automatically mean its good. What are you hitting with shadow ball that another coverage move wouldn't do? Mew? Gengar? The former already beats it 1v1 with taunt and Gengar is pretty easy to whittle down and hates twave (which is common)
 

DarkNostalgia

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I dunno if it's just me, or is tanky LO Clefable on the rise? LO+ 3 attacks Clefable beats quite a few of it's usual counters/checks such as Gliscor and Talonflame with the appropriate coverage move, i.e Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. I've seen quite a few games in SPL with sets like these.
Also, no Shadow Ball isn't particularly good on Clefable.
 
I dunno if it's just me, or is tanky LO Clefable on the rise? LO+ 3 attacks Clefable beats quite a few of it's usual counters/checks such as Gliscor and Talonflame with the appropriate coverage move, i.e Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. I've seen quite a few games in SPL with sets like these.
Also, no Shadow Ball isn't particularly good on Clefable.
Clefable is so adaptable that any of its sets can rise to prominence depending on the metagame. At the beginning of XY, when everything was wild and unfocused, Magic Guard sets were hyped and worked well. As XY started to shift to a more offensive build, Unaware sets started popping up to combat the myriad of set-up sweepers starting to take over the tier. Here in ORAS, when bulky offense and balance are starting to become more common, Life Orb Magic Guard Clefable fits right in, absorbing status, tanking hits, and doing a surprising amount of damage. Because Clefable is such a versatile 'mon, I don't think there's ever going to be a metagame where it can't do SOMETHING.

I love this Pokemon. It's such a good glue it's on almost all of my teams :)
 
Clefable is so adaptable that any of its sets can rise to prominence depending on the metagame. At the beginning of XY, when everything was wild and unfocused, Magic Guard sets were hyped and worked well. As XY started to shift to a more offensive build, Unaware sets started popping up to combat the myriad of set-up sweepers starting to take over the tier. Here in ORAS, when bulky offense and balance are starting to become more common, Life Orb Magic Guard Clefable fits right in, absorbing status, tanking hits, and doing a surprising amount of damage. Because Clefable is such a versatile 'mon, I don't think there's ever going to be a metagame where it can't do SOMETHING.

I love this Pokemon. It's such a good glue it's on almost all of my teams :)
Do Life Orb sets still want to run a defensive spread to take the same spectrum of attacks, or is a Modest / Timid nature more preferable?

I've never used LO Clef before, and I'm interested in the idea. especially since I have my MM shiny Clefable in-game
 
Do Life Orb sets still want to run a defensive spread to take the same spectrum of attacks, or is a Modest / Timid nature more preferable?

I've never used LO Clef before, and I'm interested in the idea. especially since I have my MM shiny Clefable in-game
It's more of a tank, so use 252 HP / 252 SpAtk / 4 Spd EVs with a Modest nature, and moveset being something like Moonblast / Fire Blast / Softboiled / Thunder Wave.
 

DarkNostalgia

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Ice Beam is great, since, as I said, spdef Gliscor is everywhere, and Thunderbolt works as well. tbh clef can run anything it wants, depending on what your team needs. Will add in a main mention for tank later.
 
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