Gen 3 CM Pass Rain Offense

Cdijk16

Cdijk16

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CM Pass Rain Offense

This is a special offense team which is built around supporting a Kingdra sweep. The team has Zapdos and multiple Calm Mind users to take advantage of passive bulky Water-types and Dugtrio to remove special walls.
:Zapdos: :Dugtrio: :Kingdra: :Celebi: :Suicune: :Metagross: / :Jirachi:
Importable: CM Pass Rain(Grass Zap) (pokepast.es)

Team-building Process

1. I wanted to build around Kingdra as I had heard it was a good late game cleaner. Dugtrio is almost mandatory on Kingdra teams to remove special walls, so it was added as well.

2. Zapdos was added next as it can lure in special walls like Blissey for Dugtrio to take out. It also pressures bulky-Water types that wall Kingdra.

3. CM Pass Celebi was added as it can set up easily on a good chunk of Kingdra answers and has a great matchup into most defensive teams. It also provides the team with an electric resist. It also lures and weakens Tyranitar, which the other team members appreciate.

4. Metagross was added to keep Aerodactyl and Snorlax in check and provide a rock resist. It can also use Explosion against the likes of Milotic and Suicune to blow a path for a potential Kingdra sweep.

It can also be replaced by CM 3 attacks Jirachi, but this worsens the MU into Snorlax and Aero.

5. SubCM Suicune was added it has a great matchup into certain types of defensive teams(such as Jirachi superman) and benefits greatly from Kingdra clearing the weather for it. It also provides the team with defensive backup against most physical sweepers. It can be replaced by defensive Gengar as well.

Set Descriptions

Angry Bird (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 220 SpA / 108 SpD / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave / Subsitute
- Baton Pass
Zapdos lures in special walls like Jirachi, Celebi and Blissey for Dugtrio to trap. This is greatly appreciated by all the special attackers on this team. It also provides an offensive check to offensive Suicune and threatens Milotic and Defensive Suicune. Thunder Wave remedies this team’s matchup into opposing Zapdos and Jolteon. It may be replaced with Subsitute to more consistently trap special walls. The EV spread lets it survive a +1 Ice Beam from offensive Suicune in sand.

Tremor (Dugtrio) @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 100 SpD / 116 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Aerial Ace
- Beat Up

Standard bulky Dugtrio. Beat Up helps trap Blissey. The EV spread lets it survive a Blissey Ice Beam while still outspeeding Adamant DD Tyranitar. Notably traps Blissey, Jirachi, Celebi and Tyranitar. I am considering an Adamant nature here to more reliably trap Tyranitar, Celebi(especially offensive sets) and Jirachi.


Forest Fairy (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain / Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Baton Pass
CM Pass Celebi provides the team with an electric resist and check to offensive water types. It also trades with Tyranitar, Skarmory and Metagross for the benefit of Jirachi, Suicune and Kingdra. Many defensive teams have trouble dealing with the Psychic version of this set. Calm Mind pass support helps Kingdra get a whole bunch of crucial OHKOs and even break through some of its checks. It also sets up on Milotic and some special walls that trouble Kingdra. It can take a hit from Dugtrio at +1 and KO it with Giga Drain, which Jirachi appreciates. Even if it gets trapped by Dugtrio, your own Dugtrio can trap the opposing Dugtrio. I have trouble deciding whether Psychic or Giga Drain is optimal.


Seahorse (Kingdra) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]


This whole team is built around supporting a Kingdra sweep. Kingdra provides this team with a solid-late game cleaner. It also contributes to the team defensively by checking Dragon Dance Salamence and Tyranitar and even setting up on them. HP Electric helps deal with Gyarados. It has some fantastic Calcs at +1 Sp.Atk in Rain.

Water Dog (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 104 SpA / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

This set takes advantage of pokemon like Milotic and Blissey that wall Kingdra and Zapdos. It has a good match-up into many defensive teams and puts pressure on Snorlax. It also provides defensive backup against many common physical sweepers. It also benefits greatly from Kingdra’s weather clearing abilities.

I’ve been considering swapping this for defensive Gengar.

Angry Computer (Metagross) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Meteor Mash
- Explosion

Provides the team with a solid rock resist and check to Aerodactyl. Also checks Snorlax and most Tyranitar variants. Can provide a backup check to some Calm Mind sweepers with Explosion. The rest of the team appreciates its wallbreaking with Explosion. The mixed set was originally chosen to not be complete Skarmory bait. I am considering making this a fully physical set to better deal with Tyranitar and Snorlax.

I’ve also been experimenting with CM 3 attacks Jirachi in the Metagross slot. It has great offensive synergy with the other mons, but leaves the team fairly weak to Tyranitar and Snorlax.
 
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This looks good, but in practice I am never clicking Thunder Wave on Zapdos. It only really helps to paralyze a Zapdos for Suicune to beam it down later, but you'd also rather just chip it with Thunderbolt. Jolteon kinda doesn't exist.

I'm also not convinced that Suicune needs to be that fast for this set.

Some people have tried CM Sub Surf Roar/Protect Suicune with this. Protect helps with Snorlax. Roar helps you against opposing cune.
 
vapicuno said:
This looks good, but in practice I am never clicking Thunder Wave on Zapdos. It only really helps to paralyze a Zapdos for Suicune to beam it down later, but you'd also rather just chip it with Thunderbolt. Jolteon kinda doesn't exist.

I'm also not convinced that Suicune needs to be that fast for this set.

Some people have tried CM Sub Surf Roar/Protect Suicune with this. Protect helps with Snorlax. Roar helps you against opposing cune.
Click to expand...
Then do you think Subsitute is the optimal choice of move on Zapdos here? Also, what EV spread do you reccomend ton SubRoarCune here?
 
sub yes. max hp and high speed. you at least want to have a decent chance of blocking defensive celebi leech seeds.
 
vapicuno said:
sub yes. max hp and high speed. you at least want to have a decent chance of blocking defensive celebi leech seeds.
Click to expand...
Ok, thanks. By the way, do you think the team would be better with Psychic or Giga Drain on Celebi? I've tested both and have trouble deciding which is better here.
 
not clear at a glance to me. will require some thought/testing. dealing with zap and tar are both kinda important, but the sequences for each are a bit different. what is your t1? are you tbolting tar t1? if you are, jirachi will probably be better so that you can send it in on skarm.
 
vapicuno said:
not clear at a glance to me. will require some thought/testing. dealing with zap and tar are both kinda important, but the sequences for each are a bit different. what is your t1? are you tbolting tar t1? if you are, jirachi will probably be better so that you can send it in on skarm.
Click to expand...
I do Tbolt Tar t1 on the Jirachi version of this team, but I don't on the Metagross version.
 
November 2023 update
I've had a very good run in ADV Majors recently, making it all the way to finals(top 3 in a 100 person tour) and having an overall win-actwin-loss record of 5-2-3. To celebrate, I've decided to talk more about one of my favorite teams and the edits I have made to it since this was first posted. The new edit has been very succesful, I've made it all the way to 1660s on ladder with it.
1. I changed Metagross to a physical attacking set to better answer Dragon Dance Tyranitar and be capable of checking Raikou. Rock Slide was used as as a last move to hit Zapdos hard.
Angry Computer (Metagross) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 Def
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
2. Suicune was changed from SubCM to CM 3 attacks. This lets it not be setup fodder for other Suicune since it now has HP Grass/ Electric coverage. It also does a better job of pressuring Celebi and Snorlax now. This is more of a trade off than a straight-up improvement since it makes certain MUs like Milo harder.
3. Replaced Giga Drain with Psychic on Celebi. This is again more of a trade off than a straight up improvement though.
4. Dugtrio was made more bulky to live modest Blissey IB at +1. The current EV spread used is 108HP 148 SpDef, though it may be optimized further.
 
Cdijk16 said:
Angry Bird (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 220 SpA / 108 SpD / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave
- Baton Pass
Zapdos lures in special walls like Jirachi, Celebi and Blissey for Dugtrio to trap. This is greatly appreciated by all the special attackers on this team. It also provides an offensive check to offensive Suicune and threatens Milotic and Defensive Suicune. Thunder Wave remedies this team’s matchup into opposing Zapdos and Jolteon. It may be replaced with Subsitute to more consistently trap special walls. The EV spread lets it survive a +1 Ice Beam from offensive Suicune in sand.
Click to expand...
I can't understand Baton Pass without an Agility or a Substitute.
If it was a Jolteon, you could argue to pivot off Dugtrio's Arena Trap; but Zapdos is flying type and it's imune to Arena Trap.

Cdijk16 said:
Forest Fairy (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain / Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Baton Pass
CM Pass Celebi provides the team with an electric resist and check to offensive water types. It also trades with Tyranitar, Skarmory and Metagross for the benefit of Jirachi, Suicune and Kingdra. Many defensive teams have trouble dealing with the Psychic version of this set. Calm Mind pass support helps Kingdra get a whole bunch of crucial OHKOs and even break through some of its checks. It also sets up on Milotic and some special walls that trouble Kingdra. It can take a hit from Dugtrio at +1 and KO it with Giga Drain, which Jirachi appreciates. Even if it gets trapped by Dugtrio, your own Dugtrio can trap the opposing Dugtrio. I have trouble deciding whether Psychic or Giga Drain is optimal.
Click to expand...

I would use this Celebi way more passive, I would change Hidden Power for Recover.
And would make a chain os baton pass with Agility Zapdos, Calm Mind Celebi, and maybe replace suicune for one Acid Armor Vaporeon.

To be the Ace, batter than Kingdra, it could be a Salamence who can have 4 atk moves as Flamethrower, Dragon Claw, Crunch and Hydro Pump. All specials on Gen3.
 
Shedinja-43152 said:
I can't understand Baton Pass without an Agility or a Substitute.
If it was a Jolteon, you could argue to pivot off Dugtrio's Arena Trap; but Zapdos is flying type and it's imune to Arena Trap.



I would use this Celebi way more passive, I would change Hidden Power for Recover.
And would make a chain os baton pass with Agility Zapdos, Calm Mind Celebi, and maybe replace suicune for one Acid Armor Vaporeon.

To be the Ace, batter than Kingdra, it could be a Salamence who can have 4 atk moves as Flamethrower, Dragon Claw, Crunch and Hydro Pump. All specials on Gen3.
Click to expand...
1. The Zapdos on this team DOES use Substitute in the updated version of this team. Baton Pass allows you to see what the opponent is switching to next and respond accordingly. This makes it better than switching out normally, even if you arent passing stats. This is similar to U-Turn and Volt Switch in modern gens. For example, if you opponents goes to Blissey on your Zapdos, you can go to Dugtrio to trap and KO their Blissey.
2. Dropping HP Fire would leave Celebi walled by Skarmory (and also Metagross, but that's less important), which is a not good for a team like this which doesn't appreciate Spikes on its side of the field.
3. Baton Pass Chains are not allowed in Gen 3 OU, you can only have one pokemon who passes stat boosts.
4. Kingdra fulfills a unique niche in OU and on this team that Salamence can't quite replicate. See the first few lines of its smogon analysis linked below for further explanation:
Kingdra | RS | Smogon Strategy Pokedex
 
Hi! Sorry this question isn't specifically about the team, but how did you get those little in party/pc sprites for the team members?
 
oliveroddish said:
Hi! Sorry this question isn't specifically about the team, but how did you get those little in party/pc sprites for the team members?
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I typed : <insert pokemon name> : to get the 2d pokemon sprites. For example, to get the Zapdos sprite, I typed :/zapdos: (minus the forward slash at the front).
 
Hello! Sorry for the late response on this thread, but I was looking into building a similar team and wanted to know your thoughts on replacing Suicune w/ offensive rapid spin Starmie? I know that the team is more fast paced, but I do like the idea of a spinner, and feel Starmie has a lot of utility outside of just spinning.

It does sacrifice defensive integrity, but I was thinking its more offensive nature could make up for that
 
DreamlandElite said:
Hello! Sorry for the late response on this thread, but I was looking into building a similar team and wanted to know your thoughts on replacing Suicune w/ offensive rapid spin Starmie? I know that the team is more fast paced, but I do like the idea of a spinner, and feel Starmie has a lot of utility outside of just spinning.

It does sacrifice defensive integrity, but I was thinking its more offensive nature could make up for that
Click to expand...
I have used this team with Offensive Starmie over Suicune many times. It works fairly well, but I still like the Suicune version more as a matter of personal preference.
 
I like the team but the Zapdos set feels very clunky. Hidden power Grass makes you struggle against Celebi. I think replacing Grass with Ice would be a improvement. I'm unsure of how big of a deal surviving a Ice Beam from Suicune is because your Zapdos mostly likely won't be super healthy most games as its your lead.

+1 252+ SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Zapdos: 260-306 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I would probably run Zapdos with Def or HP instead of Sp.Def. You could also do a Sp.Def HP split

Also your Celebi speed can be lowered to 300 your not really out speeding anything at 308.

Here are some replays I made plenty of mistakes, but still did decent. I'm unsure of what you changed your Dugtrio set to so I used the original.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070655885
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070657333
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070661022
 
Dawn Dreams said:
I like the team but the Zapdos set feels very clunky. Hidden power Grass makes you struggle against Celebi. I think replacing Grass with Ice would be a improvement. I'm unsure of how big of a deal surviving a Ice Beam from Suicune is because your Zapdos mostly likely won't be super healthy most games as its your lead.

+1 252+ SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Zapdos: 260-306 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I would probably run Zapdos with Def or HP instead of Sp.Def. You could also do a Sp.Def HP split

Also your Celebi speed can be lowered to 300 your not really out speeding anything at 308.

Here are some replays I made plenty of mistakes, but still did decent. I'm unsure of what you changed your Dugtrio set to so I used the original.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070655885
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070657333
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070661022
Click to expand...
1. I originally did have HP Ice on Zapdos, but I swapped it for HP Grass after much testing because I considered being walled by Swampert a more serious issue than being walled by Celebi. Celebi can be trapped by a Baton Pass to healthy Dugtrio while Swampert cannot. I think HP Grass here is better overall.

2. 108 Sp.Def EVs enable Zapdos's Subsitute to not be broken in 1 hit by Claydol Psychic. This makes it a huge threat to Milotic + Claydol stall teams alongside Dugtrio, which are very hard to break otherwise. Offensive Suicune is also very threatening to my team and having a 2nd out against is quite valuable.

3. 308 Speed on Celebi allows it to outspeed Timid max speed Moltres, which lets me hit it with Psychic before it can force out Celebi with Roar.

4. This is the EV spread I changed my Dugtrio to.
Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 108 HP / 156 Atk / 148 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Beat Up
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Aerial Ace

5. About the replays you linked, I would advise you to keep your Dugtrio at full or near full health at all times in order to reliably trap Blissey and Celebi. The game can become nearly unwinnable if Blissey doesnt get trapped in particular. The only exception to this is if you are certain your opponent doesn't have any special walls that Dugtrio can trap. You also shouldn't switch Metagross into Gengar WOW, you should use Celebi to absorb WOW instead and force the Gengar out with Psychic.
 
Cdijk16 said:
1. I originally did have HP Ice on Zapdos, but I swapped it for HP Grass after much testing because I considered being walled by Swampert a more serious issue than being walled by Celebi. Celebi can be trapped by a Baton Pass to healthy Dugtrio while Swampert cannot. I think HP Grass here is better overall.

2. 108 Sp.Def EVs enable Zapdos's Subsitute to not be broken in 1 hit by Claydol Psychic. This makes it a huge threat to Milotic + Claydol stall teams alongside Dugtrio, which are very hard to break otherwise. Offensive Suicune is also very threatening to my team and having a 2nd out against is quite valuable.

3. 308 Speed on Celebi allows it to outspeed Timid max speed Moltres, which lets me hit it with Psychic before it can force out Celebi with Roar.

4. This is the EV spread I changed my Dugtrio to.
Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 108 HP / 156 Atk / 148 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Beat Up
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Aerial Ace

5. About the replays you linked, I would advise you to keep your Dugtrio at full or near full health at all times in order to reliably trap Blissey and Celebi. The game can become nearly unwinnable if Blissey doesnt get trapped in particular. The only exception to this is if you are certain your opponent doesn't have any special walls that Dugtrio can trap. You also shouldn't switch Metagross into Gengar WOW, you should use Celebi to absorb WOW instead and force the Gengar out with Psychic.
Click to expand...

1. Using Grass over Ice is respectable. But from my playing Swampert isn't that big deal, I haven't had any issue playing against it. Dugtrio trapping Celebi isn't super reliable because bulky Celebi which is the main concern doesn't die to a Dugtrio Hidden Power Bug when it has full health and Hidden Power Ice puts in Bug Range.

I made my own version and play tested it a bit

https://pokepast.es/ee906211e8c442bb

Heres the changed I made

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 132 SpD / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave
- Roar

I think this set make Zapdos a more formidable lead and I think that Subpassing is not super necessary. 244 Speed because of TTar.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Ice Beam
- Surf

I think Defensive Suicune is in general better and it allows a extra layer of defense while still being quite offensive. Weather resetting is also much better for this set than a offensive set.

Minor changes. I changed the speed on Celebi and added Rock Slide to Dugtrio

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070875545?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2070877356
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2071286282?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2071286984?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2071287865?p2
 
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