Combo Typing

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ZhengTann

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
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An excerpt of the post where this idea is conceived, by user SimonSays in State of the Game:
... The idea I had was that, with the advent of Flying Press being dual-typed, and the ability to Skill Swap multiple -iate abilities on one Pokemon to have multi-typed attacks, why not open up dual-typed combination attacks? But only those that would, following the current chain of type-priority, be typeless?
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And another, this time from the ASB Handbook on the heart of the matter:
Combination Types / Type Priority

The type of a combo is the other slightly more complex attribute of a combo to calculate. Each move has a field called CT, which stands for Combination Type. This is an indicator of the dominance of a move's manifestation and, by extension, how likely it is for the move to retain its type when used in a combo. The type of a same-move combo is always the same as the type of the move, and the type of a different-move combo of two moves of the same type, the combo's type is the same as the type of the two moves. For different-move combos whose moves have different types, you must first compare the CTs of the individual moves. The CTs are as follows:
  1. Set: Typing is such a fixed part of this attack it will override all other types.
  2. Force: Typing defines the attack to such an extent it will override elements.
  3. Elemental: Typing defines the attack as imbued with an elemental property.
  4. Passive: Typing is part of the attack but is not definitive in its use.
  5. Deferring: This attack is easily redefined by the qualities of other attacks.
  6. None: This attack cannot be used in a combo.
Whichever move's CT is higher up in the ranking is the one whose type is used to determine the combo's type. If the CTs are identical, compare the Base Attack Powers of the two moves. Whichever move has the higher power is the one that the combo uses the type of. For this purpose, non-damaging moves defer to moves that deal direct damage. If both attacks have the same CT and the same Base Attack Power but the Pokemon gets STAB on one of them, then the combo uses the move that the Pokemon gets STAB on. If both attacks have the same CT and the same Base Attack Power and the Pokemon gets STAB on both or neither of them, the combo becomes typeless. Like a typeless attack, a typeless combo is never affected by STAB, weakness, resistance or any effect keyed to typing.
Click to expand...

IMHO, this discussion could be relatively straightforward:
  • What changes it might bring to the ASB metagame?
  • Do we, as the ASB community, want to implement this, after considering the potential ramifications? Why?
I realised that a lot of users have spoken their thoughts in SotG already, but you are still free to reiterate them here, or post new thoughts on the matter.

Fire away ^_^
 
I am heavily against the struggle-typing system we have right now. Maybe I'm just being shortsighted, but I can think very few situations where having a high-BAP untyped move is a better option than comboing a weak super-effective attack like Bite or Hidden Power with Hyper Beam/Giga Impact. It seems really dysfunctional and ruins quite a few neat ideas - like the tradeoff of a Fire Punch + Fire Punch (more BAP, more Burn, more EN) vs Fire Punch + Ice Punch (less BAP, some freeze, less EN). Dual typing opens up some absurd damage of being able to hit far too many Pokemon with a 4x weakness they never had, so I am against this can of worms. I think combos should be kept as is, except that the user chooses the typing in same BAP, same combo level, no/both STAB combos.
 
Perhaps, we could make dual-type moves not strike any individual type for more than 2x or less than 1/2x damage. That way, we can't have combinations dealing 8x damage because of both types striking one type for SE damage, and then SE damage on the other type.

An alternative solution would be to cap the type modifier at the number of types (so up to 2x against single-type, 4x against dual-type, 8x against a triple-type, and 16x against a quadruple-type due to arena effects and type-adding moves (i.e. Delphox under the effects of Forest's Curse holding a model train in the type shop arena), and increasing like so if any arenas allow for 5+ types on one pokemon.
 
Back in SotG, we've ran a few calcs both on IRC and in that thread. These are what could happen if we implement dual-type combos.
  • Dig + Dive combo (Water/Ground type) against a Magma Armour Magcargo, assuming Magcargo's Defense is the same rank as the attacker's Attack, deals [(8+8)-1]*5.0625 = 75.938 damage. Costs 30 EN.
  • Adamant Talonflame's Flame Blitz + Brave Bird combination vs. Neutral natured Leavanny. Deals ((10+2)*2+3+(4+3)*1.5)*5.0625 = 144.28125 Damage. Energy cost is only 24 22 En. (EDIT: Forgot STAB)
The general consensus so far is that it will be over-powered, centering focus towards either large-movepool mons with identical elemental coverage or selective dual-type mons with equal STAB attacks. So, a simple alternative has been offered by Leethoof, to allow the user to decide what the type of such a combo will be if all else ties down. Personally I'm not very taken to Mulan's alternatives, since they're convoluted (requires enforcing on select options such as SE modifiers and type interactions even though allowing dual-type combos in general) and difficult to understand at a first glance. But by all means, if you have anything to add, to build on, or to object, then by all means, go forth. But discussion has been stagnant for quite some time, so let's put a 24 hour window, shall we?
 
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I do not see how making dual-type moves only hit each type for zero, NVE, neutral, or SE damage is any more complicated than making single-type moves hit each type for zero, NVE, neutral, or SE damage, which is the case.
 
Well, that was meant to be a cue for someone other than me to pull comparison data, but apparently I still need to work on my forum NLP. Since we've already explored the "dual-type multiple SE combo option", let's take a look at how Leet's proposal measures to both of Mulan's, using the Talonflame versus Leavanny example courtesy of Simon:
  • Leet's proposal (A choice for the combo user if all other methods draw blank): Adamant Talonflame's Flame Blitz + Brave Bird combination vs. Neutral natured Leavanny (either Fire or Flying, to be decided by user). Deals [(10+2)*2+3+(6-4.5)]*2.25 = 64.125 Damage. Costs 23 EN.
  • Mulan's proposal (Allowing dual-type but capping SE damage multiplier on individual typing): Adamant Talonflame's Flame Blitz + Brave Bird combination vs. Neutral natured Leavanny (Fire/Flying dual-type combo, but are only allowed to strike for a 1.5x multiplier on Levanny's Bug-typing, and another 1.5x multiplier on Leavanny's Grass-typing). Deals [(10+2)*2+3+(6-4.5)]*2.25 = 64.125 Damage. Costs 22 EN.
  • Mulan's proposal (Allowing dual-type but capping SE damage multiplier on target Pokemon's typing): Adamant Talonflame's Flame Blitz + Brave Bird combination vs. Neutral natured Leavanny (Fire/Flying dual-type combo, but Leavanny being a dual-type Pokemon is only allowed to be struck with a maximum 2.25x multiplier). Deals [(10+2)*2+3+(6-4.5)]*2.25 = 64.125 Damage. Costs 22 EN.
So, what we've got here is we're allowing dual-type combos to cost 1 less EN, by writing up lines in the ASB Handbook that is rather more difficult to understand. So...... Are there any other difference between proposals which I have neglected?
 
Combo typing is (mostly) fine, we dont need dual-type bullcrap just to have mons with a single typing taking x2,25 damage for no reason.


However, i agree the struggle-typing system is....annoying, so heres my suggestion:


If two moves are combo'ed together and they have the same CT and BAP, the typing that gives STAB to it's user gets priority. If both (Or neither) moves gain STAB, the attack becomes typeless.


Or....


If two moves are combo'ed together and they have the same CT and BAP, the user gets to decide it's typing.



Anything is better than dual-type combinations from anything that isnt Hawlucha.
 
Just wondering, what would we do if Flying Press is comboed with a higher BAP CT: Set move? This way, something like Flying Press + V-Create Smeargle could still get a Fire/Flying dual-type move (since the Flying-type part of Flying Press is an additional effect).

Nuetral Attack Smeargle (rank 1 attack) Fire/Flying V-Create+Flying Press combination (26 BAP) vs. neutral Defense Leavanny (rank 3 defense) deals (26+1.5-4.5)*5.0625=116.4375 damage, which is absurd.
 
Mulan15262 said:
Just wondering, what would we do if Flying Press is comboed with a higher BAP CT: Set move? This way, something like Flying Press + V-Create Smeargle could still get a Fire/Flying dual-type move (since the Flying-type part of Flying Press is an additional effect).

Nuetral Attack Smeargle (rank 1 attack) Fire/Flying V-Create+Flying Press combination (26 BAP) vs. neutral Defense Leavanny (rank 3 defense) deals (26+1.5-4.5)*5.0625=116.4375 damage, which is absurd.
Click to expand...


Maybe we can make it so the Flying part isnt an additional effect IF the primary typing was changed?


We could also cap Flying Press so it can only deal a max of 2,25 damage.


Ugh i really could have worded that better...
 
Capping Flying Press at 2.25 (why do some areas write it 2,25 while others 2.25, so annoying) times damage would affect the way it works. If a Weavile (or some other pokemon I don't care to think of atm) that was under the effects of Forest's Curse was hit by Flying Press, that is 3.375 times damage, although the same could occur with a flying-type move against a Heracross under the effects of Forest's Curse or with an ice-type move against a Forest's Curse Gliscor.
 
RE Flying Press: I'm inclined to say treat it as a single Flying/Fighting type move. So if you combine it with a stronger CT: Set move, the typing becomes the single typing for the stronger move, otherwise the move becomes Flying/Fighting. Or, we could just CT: None Flying Press to remove the problem outright.

I personally like the "Pick your typing by move order", since Typeless Combos are very silly.

For Mulan: Decimal Point notation varies between coutnries - the US, the UK, English-Speaking areas of Canada and Australia would all use a . to denote a decimal point, whilst many countries on, say, continental Europe or in South America use a comma. If it annoys you, then tough I guess =\

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FishEdit: Treating Flying Press as basically being a single-type with the following type chart seems sensible:

Bug: 1
Dark: 2
Dragon: 1
Electric: .5
Fairy: .5
Fighting: 2
Fire: 1
Flying: .5
Ghost: 0
Grass: 2
Ground: 1
Ice: 2
Normal: 2
Poison: .5
Psychic: .5
Rock: 1
Steel: 1
Water: 1
 
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I like DF's first idea; it preserves Flying Press' unique quality without compromising our current sub typing system :)

I'd like to think that Flying Press has a type of "Flying/Fighting" rather than two types of "Flying" and "Fighting" which makes thinking about it slightly easier, except that it still activates Flying-type and Fighting-type attack sub clauses...
 
Alright, discussion's been long enough. There's already a 95-hour time window between this post and the last. Here's what will be moved to voting (I really should slate stuff based on certain arbitrary criteria instead of listing every single option put forward):

What should be implemented on the typing of a Combo, if all preceding methods (CT, BAP, STAB) fail to determine the results?
No changes (Typeless Combo)
Allow the user to choose the typing of one of the moves in the combo
Allow dual-type but capping SE damage multiplier on individual typing
Allowing dual-type but capping SE damage multiplier on target Pokemon's typing
Determined by the first move in the combo

Thank you for your time. Mods may close up this thread.
 
Gonna swoop in here on Flying Press and combos.

Since the only time a set move difficulty with Flying Press is going to occur with Smeargle, I'd say you override the Fighting type, because that is that actual STAB. Then, just cap it to a maximum of x2.25 damage. As awesome as it might be to have V-Create + Flying Press Smeargle do 16x damage to Parasect (a total ASB-modified multiplier of 5.0625 total damage on a 26 BAP combo (28 actually w/ Dry Skin), a legitimate OHKO move under ASB math).

Or, refs could not entertain Set move combos with Flying Press from Smeargle willy nilly, as hilarious as actually being to KO another Pokemon from full health with a single action would be.
 
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