DDdos and AGMence sets

Bekins

My idea of DDdos and AGMence sets

Gyarados@Leftovers
Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Return
Taunt

I think this is the best Gyarados set. Jumpman's set, the most popular nowadays, (Ice Fang + EQ + DD + Taunt), doesn't hit hard, pokes like Rhyperior (Rock Slide hits hardly Gyarados, yeah, Earthquake does anyway a good damage to this, but not too much) Ludicolo (with tpunch he can kill Dos easy, without that can stall), Masoswine and Skarmory and gives to Tbolt Blissey greatest chances of succes at beating that. My Gyarados can counter THAT Gyarados, can make Rhyperior run and ridiculizes Ludicolo. Also hits a lot better Skarmory, Masoswine and Skarmory. Electric problem? Not really. There aren't electric with great defense, WFall does a good damage to them and spikes helps. Return to hit all grass pokemons (yeah, ludicolo too) and for waters. Remember that return's power is almost the same of stabbed Hp Flying in RSE.

Salamence@AdherenceGlasses
Meteoric Swarm
Flamethrower
Brick Break
Hp Grass

I don't know what set is considered standard for now but i think that this is great. Meteoric Swarm ohkos/2hkos most water pokes, Flamethrower for steels (that resists to dragon), Brick Break to prevent Blissey stalling this and to hit Heatran, Hp Grass for Swampert/Claydol/Starmie (ohko for starmie) and to hit waters preparing them to die for that Meteoric Thing.
 
Meteoric Swarm does an assload to Waters anyway, and does ALMOST as much as Brick Break to Blissey unless you really mess with the standard EVs. Your Gyarados is going to get countered by something like Thunderpunch Metagross, but if you're okay with that be my guest.
 
Gyarados needs ice fang, else it has problems with defensive grass or dragonpokemon. and hp grass is useless use hydropump for heatran (does alot more damage than brick break)
 
Meteoric Swarm does an assload to Waters anyway, and does ALMOST as much as Brick Break to Blissey unless you really mess with the standard EVs. Your Gyarados is going to get countered by something like Thunderpunch Metagross, but if you're okay with that be my guest.
Click to expand...

Meteoric Swarm haven't lots of pps, so Hp Grass helps. I want to use that set with Naughty and some attack evs to 2hko blissey with BBreak.
 
HP Grass against Milotic and Suicune is 140 BP, Dragon Pulse is 135 a very minor difference. Yes, it hits Swampert hard but he can be OHKOed by Draco Meteor and will be 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse.

You're making some pretty bold claims, do you have any damage calculations to back them up? EV spreads - even slightly vague ones - would help too.
 
lol at least this gives me something to post about today

Like Phuquoph said, EVs spreads are the issue here, though not quite for the reason you may expect. Your use of the word "set" in "Gyarados set seems to indicate you've just put four moves on a pokemon that's capable of sweeping off the bat and maximizing those chances, which is fine in theory.

However, Dragon Dance and Taunt are no-brainers on a Gyarados, and it doesn't take a genius to add two more moves to round out a "set". More importantly, though, you seem to not know the reasoning behind Ice Fang on my Gyarados, and when you say "doesn't hit hard" I have a feeling you're still talking about just the moves and their type coverage, and not the the fact that I purposely gave my Gyarados, a pokemon with 125 Base Attack, only 16 Atk EVs though as I said earlier EVs are the most important.

So, just 16 EVs in attack...where are the rest of them? In HP and Def, with a few in speed. Why would I do that? The reason is Garchomp. I don't know if you missed the 27-page thread about how much of a threat "Gaburiasu" seemed poised to pose in DP, but it was stated a few times that Gyarados, with its Intimidate, immunity to EQ, resistance to Fire Fang/Blast and Ice Fang would be a solid choice in handling Garchomp. Garchomp is behind much of the reasoning behind my set (and with "set" I include EVs, nature and moves), and these numbers will hopefully shed some light on that reasoning. Dusting off my calculator:

Jolly, 359 Attack Garchomp's Swords Danced, Intimidated Dragon Claw on a 384HP/235Def (near-max/60%) Gyarados: 46-54%
Jolly, 359 Attack Garchomp's Swords Danced, Intimidated Dragon Claw on a 332HP/194Def (4EVs/min) Gyarados: 64-76%

I'm not implying you would run max-Atk/Spd and therefore 4EVs/min-Def on your own Gyarados, but this gives you an idea of what is needed to start becoming a good Garchomp counter. What you need next is Ice Fang:

Adamant, 319 Attack Gyarados's Ice Fang on a 360HP/226Def (4EVs/min) Garchomp: 75-88%

Not a OHKO, but guess how much attack Gyarados needs to OHKO this virtually no-defense Garchomp guaranteed:

Adamant, 430 Attack Gyarados's Ice Fang on a 360HP/226Def (4EVs/min) Garchomp: 100.12-117.65%

And, of course, Gyarados can't reach 430 attack without a Choice Band, since it tops out at 383 Attack Adamant with 252 Atk EVs. However, I'm still posing an immediate threat to Garchomp with little to no risk to myself switching in, adhering to the definition of "counter" I amended my RMT announcement with yesterday. Few other pokemon can boast this without wildly overspecializing, with Misty's jokingly proposed Choice Scarf Bold Suicune with Max Def, 266 SpA and the rest of the EVs in HP being the best example of such overspecialization.

To sum up the Gyarados issue, I have near max HP and just enough Atk EVs to reach the first magic stat point at 319. The rest of the EVs are going into Defense and Speed, with more respect to Speed given that I know "the rest in Defense" will be a lot. If I solely want this Gyarados to best deal with Garchomp, I would run exactly 223 Speed and therefore 239 Defense. The spread I've posted the most has 227 Speed and therefore 235 defense, which would reach 340 speed and outspeed Modest Sceptile and Adamant Dugtrio (339) and tie Infernape that were EVed to beat those pokemon. That was a slight oversight on my part as I'd obviously want to outspeed those Infernape by at least one and not tie them, but I've since determined that 234 Speed would be best if I don't just want to focus on Garchomp, as that would allow me to reach 351 Speed after a DD, and therefore outpace all non-Scarf Gengar (350) and all Infernape (346), resulting in 228 Defense. This is minor EV-tweaking, yes, but absolutely imperative to keep in mind when you're making "sets" for pokemon, even those that look as simple as Gyarados.


So Bekins, the question is: are you more worried about Ludicolo and Skarmory (twice, lol) as threats or Garchomp and Salamence? I know the pokemon I'm missing out on by foregoing Waterfall on my bulky set, which is why I'm breeding at least three different EVs spreads ingame now. But even if you were worried about Ludicolo:

Adamant, 319 Attack Gyarados's Dragon Danced Return on a 364HP/263Def Ludicolo: 36-43%

Granted, it's very likely you wouldn't be running my EV spread that only has 16 Atk EVs. But guess how much attack actually "ridiculizes Ludicolo" and therefore 2HKOs it guaranteed after a DD:

Adamant, 461 Attack Gyarados's Dragon Danced Return on a 364HP/263Def Ludicolo: 53.134-62-439%

You need to do, minimum, 53.125% damange to a pokemon to guaranteed a 2HKO assuming Leftovers recovery. Gyarados therefore needs 461 attack to threaten that on Ludicolo, which it obviously can't get to after one DD. Since a real Ludicolo would both switch in the second Gyarados shows up and have an Electric attack if it actually wanted to counter Gyarados (since Grass Rope, even STABbed, will not 2HKO without a major EV/Nature/Choice Specs investment):

Bold, 216 SpA (min) Ludicolo's Hidden Power Electric on a 384HP/236SpD (near-max/min) Gyarados: 49-58%

I'm giving Ludicolo the benefit of the doubt of running HP Electric, like a Relaxed Swampert should in my opinion if it wants to counter Gyarados, and not the Thunderpunch you suggested it would have since the latter is physical now. And that's my Gyarados — here's one with 4HP EVs (again, not assuming you'd run just 4HP EVs but as I hope is clear by now EVs are ridiculously important):

Bold, 216 SpA (min) Ludicolo's Hidden Power Electric on a 332HP/236SpD (4EVs/min) Gyarados: 57-67%

So just so you know, Bekins, you'd be looking at being 2HKOed unless you ran a ton of HP EVs.


As far as Skarmory is concerned, I love words and typing and all but I've literally posted why Skarmory is the worst pokemon to be in on Gyarados at least six times as well so read this. Everything there is valid except for the Drill Peck on Gyarados at the end, but those are 11-14% net on Gyarados assuming Leftovers recovery, and 5.63-7.71% when Skarmory's Intimidated (and if it isn't clear by that post I will switch my Gyarados into Skarmory every day of the week).

Of course, I don't profess to know what the metagame will look like in two years, two months or even in two weeks when DP hits the states, but as far as I'm concerned my Gyarados is going to be one of the most solid Garchomp counters.



As for Choice Glasses Salamence, you have even less of a case. "My" set is considered to be standard now for the reasons I've posted about a dozen times now, which actually makes me feel less and less bad about it being called Jumpmence every time I do have to post the reasoning behind it because the set itself is evidently not quite intuitive enough! And, as above, the issue here will have a bit to do with EVs, more specifically in this case whether you plan on running a nature that does not hinder Attack. Rash would probably be the non-Modest natuer of choice, since even with Intimidate, Salamence is not going to want to lower its defense because it's switching in on physical pokemon much moe than special ones.

Modest, 350 SpA Salamence's Choice Specs Draco Meteor on a 688HP/306SpD (60%/min) Bold Blissey: 37.81-44.43% (19-22% after the drop)

Modest, 275 Attack (min) Salamence's Brick Break on a 688HP/130Def (60%/max) Bold Blissey: 33-39%

Rash, 306 Attack (min) Salamence's Brick Break on a 688HP/130Def (60%/max) Bold Blissey: 37.18-43.69%

So, since Draco Meteor will always outdamage Brick Break unless you start investing EVs into Atk, it really becomes of question of whether or not you want to be locked into Brick Break on a pokemon you can hardly even 3HKO (needing to do 37.5% minimum to guarantee that). Brick Break wouldn't prevent Blissey from stalling, and I'm pretty sure I'd switch something like Tyranitar or Heracross or Weavile into Blissey if I think it's going to Softboiled off the Draco Meteor damage anyway.

If you're honestly worried about PP, just use Dragon Pulse like Phuquoph said:

Modest, 350 SpA Salamence's Choice Specs Dragon Pulse on a 688HP/306SpD (60%/min) Bold Blissey: 24-29%

The last thing you should keep in mind is that, since you probably aren't even 3HKOing Blissey with BB, it can and will stay in on you to Ice Beam, which is the reason my examples don't have 714HP. 688HP/130Def/147Spd allows for 212 SpA:

Bold, 212 SpA Blissey's Ice Beam on a 332HP/196SpD (4EVs/min) Modest Salamence: 90-106%
Bold, 212 SpA Blissey's Ice Beam on a 332HP/176SpD (4EVs/min) Rash Salamence: 100-118%

So that, coincidentally, is, always a OHKO. As far as the Starmie and Claydol you mentioned are concerned, you're guilty of one of the most basic oversights of a Super Effective Hidden Power — it's only 70 × 2 = 140. Meteoric Swarm would do 140 × 1.5 = 210 to those pokemon. Since Dragon Pulse is always a 2HKO on Swampert, it can't switch in, and if you're heads up with Swampert, there's a great chance that Draco Meteor will OHKO. Read this for further clarification on why a 4× effective HP on Salamence still isn't a good idea — it regards Gyarados and therefore HP Electric but the fundamentals are the same.

par for the course woot
 
lol another pkmn essay...please mr. jumpman for your own health´s sake, fuse all your useful gyarados and salamence posts into one topic and give a link to it in the D/P information thread or D/P threat list, or just sticky it...you could´ve bred like 10 karps in the meantime instead of this...you risk to be known as gyaraman/salaman instead of jumpman if you go on like this :p

good read
 
I'm done with Magikarp though! 27/31/31/30/30/31 woot

you're 100% right though that took a while and I should be finishing up that rapid spin starmie (i got 31/3/31/31/27/29 but it was Rash, oh well). I do fully intend to just copy and paste the brunt of these "pokemon essays" into our eventual DP writeups and i'm pretty sure nobody will have a problem with that lol
 
jumpman5.jpg


On-topic, I'd like to mention the last thing I'll be worried about when using a Choice Glasses Salamence with Draco Meteor is PP.
 
That's awesome, Mekkah.

PP shouldn't be much of a concern when Stealth Rock and Sandstorm are knocking away 37.5% of your HP every appearance you make.
 
^ LOL @ the Picture

Also, Jumpman 1599 WORDS! thats bigger than a friggin standard essay!

ONTOPIC: Earthquake > Return. otherwise stuff like Probopass have a field day with you.
 
I find it funny that you apply Wish support and Rapid Spin on your side but not on Skarmory's, Jump.

Anyway, I saw this after I read your first post on your defensive Gyarados, and immediately realized the solution: Brave Bird Skarm.

On a usual Gyarados, it would just lol when Skarmory comes in, saying, gg or the likes, but on my BB Skarm, there's the matter of BB doing circa ~28% minimum on Jump's Dos with it's minimum 196 Attack, and 3HKOing more attack oriented Dos that nearly max both Speed and attack, to beat out other Dos, etc., and Skarm usually has more attack anyways.

Of course, there's the recoil thing, Skarm taking like 43 damage recioll every time while Dos does 20-23% damage,(66-78 damage every time) with a DDed Ice Fang( Max attack Dos, and Ice Fang has potential Flinch and freeze but W/E), but the course is(Without SR in play):

Jumpman's Gyarados in, Dragon Dances on DeVIL's Swampert, while DeVIL switches to Skarmory

Well, obviously there are things wrong with that, first, I would never switch in Skarm to Dos, since Dos potentialy has Waterfall, which 3HKOs Skarm after a DD, and can DD up on Skarm, so I would obviously swich to Shaymin, Tangrowth, or the obvious other Bulky Grass who 2-3HKOs with move.

Gyarados Taunts Skarmory, Skarmory does say 28% on Gyarados at the moment.
Skarmory is at full HP after leftovers, Gyarados is at 78% health after Leftovers.

Now obviously, Jump would get out of here if he was himself, and would definitely get out if he didn't have Waterfall unless he thought he was completely safe. He did the second.

Next turn, Gyarados does Ice Fang on Skarm, and Skarm flinches.
Skarm after Leftovers: 87% Gyarados after Leftovers: 84%

He got lucky.

Again, Gyarados uses Ice Fang for 16%, but it doesn't flinch; Skarmory uses Brave Bird for 34%
Gyarados's health 59%, Skarmory: 234 HP

Sorry for the Mixed pecentages and numbers, recoil is hard.

Next turn, Gyarados hit's Ice Fang and Skarm hits Brave Bird, both do minimum damage:
Gyarados after Leftovers: 37%, Skarmory after Leftovers: 199 HP.

Unless he pulls off a lucky freeze, CH, or Flinch twice, I've won that 1 on 1.

So unless Gyarados has Waterfall, it will lose to BBSkarmory 1 on 1, even if it DDs up, which will make it so Gyara hardly touches Skarm.

My reasons for BBSkarm have now been clarified. He(Skarm) flinched once and still beat Dos. that's also with min damage BB every time.
 
I indicate those two moves in direct response to "Stealth Rock and Sandstorm are knocking away 37.5% of your HP every appearance you make." Beautiful Skin Skarmory only has 12.5% of its HP knocked away with every appearance since it's immune to Sandstream, and I actually explicitly indicated in one of those linked posts that Skarmory both taking Stealth Rock Damage and not having Leftovers was probably "either or" for the sake of my argument.

Besides, the only reason Skarmory would need Wish Support is because its attempts at Roosting would be Taunted. It's pretty obvious to me that if you're switching Skarmory out of Gyarados, Gyarados not only has proven itself uncounterable by Skarmory, which by itself directly proves my point that "Skarmory does not counter Gyarados, sorry", but that it also will pose a threat to whatever you've switched in, having at least one Dragon Dance under its belt. And the only reason I'm talking about Skarmory at all is in relation to how it serves as a Gyarados counter.
 
Looking at the answer I got in the moves research thread, my original claim is kind of short-sighted. Here's the thing:

With Stealth Rock and Sandstorm/Hail up, Salamence loses 37.5% per appearance (switches in, takes 25%, plus 6.125% from Sandstorm, shits on whatever the opponent brings out, and takes another 6.125%). Meaning that after 2 appearances, he's at 25%.

Now, if you set his HP correctly, I believe there's a way to get him to exactly 1 HP after Stealth Rock damage (due to rounding), and as I just found out, Wish activates before Sandstorm. Meaning he'll go to 50%, down to 44% from Sandstorm, unleash crap, down to 38%, and switch out. He'll be good for one more show, but he'll be at 1 HP again, meaning you'll now need to provide Wish support for every time you bring him out. (Eventually, you'd get him to enough HP for two showings without Wish, but I wouldn't count on that)

Can't argue Rapid Spin, but the whole one-for-one trade aspect of it makes it difficult to maintain (for both parties).

So yeah. CG Salamence is a bitch to maintain, but given those orgasmic numbers, it's definitely worth it. Huh, I guess I just defeated whatever my argument was.
 
O and on topic, I don't like Return on Gyarados because Azumarill does that way better, and Dos has other options.

Jump read the edited post before yours.
 
Is Brave Bird Skarmory going to be enough of an asset outside of hurting Gyarados a little more?

I'd say no, particularly as I favour Shed Shell over Leftovers. Still, it's not the worst idea in the world. I did some calculations a while ago and you need something like 210 Attack to OHKO Infernape with it, so you might want to consider that to give Skarmory something else to benefit from using Brave Bird over Drill Peck. It might be more or less Attack, like I said this was awhile ago and I don't remember the exact stat.
 
Of course you'd say that, but BB does 2HKO Azelf and Gengar, even when it's not -Def, whch is extremely useful. It also OHKOs Sceptile, 3HKOs Torterra, who Skarm would never beat otherwise unless it's packing Taunt, and 2HKOs Celebi, something Drill Peck Skarm couldn't do. I'm one of the people who prefers Leftovers on Skarm.
 
Why do you assume I would say that?

I just think it seems counter productive to drop the HP of something you want to take repeated hits, despite Brave Bird scoring some nice damage. Sceptile won't be switching in or staying in for that matter, unless Skarmory has taken a little damage previously and it's about to throw a boosted HP Fire at him.
 
Every time I read Jumpman's posts about that monstrous thing I kick myself for thinking of AG Dragonite instead of Salamence ;/.

Skarmory's days of walling Gyarados are over, period. With Leftovers it gets screwed by Magnezone, and with Shed Shell Gyarados beats it 1-on-1. Besides, it packs a completely different set of moves now, so there are other Pokemon you can use to stop it.
 
I pray, and I mean pray, that ChoiceSpecsDragonite doesn't get popular, because honestly like two Pokes can switch into it, Blissey and o yeah, Chansey. Wait, Chansey takes like ~40% from it. Damn.
 
I don't see what Choice Specs Dragonite is going to do better than Choice Specs Salamence, outside of hitting with its water move more often and having access to BoltBeam.
 
They both take a lot more from Focus Punch, which is really the only reason I'd consider Dragonite over Salamence for a Choice Specs set. Oh, Thunderbolt too. I feel the need to try and make a team with it now.
 
I'd imagine Sala takes less from a FP on the switch in, despite lower defenses; you're right on the higher Special Defense, though.
 
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