Don't Use This, Use That: NU Edition

that's actually a really interesting set there, I personally have only used cleric ampharos and specs ampharos. Never tried SubAgility before, and might build a team with it to see how well it does
If you do plan on using the set in a team, one thing I would recommend is Thunder Wave support. Paralyzing the opponent's fast physical attackers helps a lot in ensuring the sweep with this set. Toxic Spikes are also pretty useful, even though the main two reasons for using them (i.e. Alomomola and Tangela) are merc'd by Ampharos' coverage. It's also good to note that Ampharos easily outspeeds all Pokemon in the tier below Scarf Rotom-S/F, meaning it outruns the likes of +2 Gorebyss after an Agility. If that's not hard to revenge kill, I don't know what is.
 
I will try to post something but I hope I don't say something really stupid!
Don't use this :


Basculin @ Choice Band
Trait: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Crunch/Double-Edge
- Superpower
- Waterfall

I think this set is very overrated!YES,I have to admit this set works very well..but it gets walled by things like Alomomola,Seismitoad,Roselia,Vilemplume,Tangela,Victrebeel(you can hit it with Double-edge if you have it over Crunch),Altaria,Dragonair with eviolite and it can easily set up on your face,Fraxure for the same reason,Tropius and etc. (That's all that I remember for now) :/

Use This:


Basculin @ Life Orb/Expert Belt
Trait: Adaptability
EVs: 60 Spd / 224 Atk / 224 SAtk
Rash Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

I think set should be used more.As I mention above they are MANY things that wall this thing!I don't mean to mock the other set,I think it's pretty good,but if the opponent has these things late game,you are screwed!!!At least this set nullifies many things that walled you.(But I have to admit,that now Jynx walls this thing to oblivion)!So,let's start with the item.Life orb can be used for instant power but E-belt can easily trick people thinking that you have the standard CB set (Trust me,it happened to me a lot!!).Then we go to the EVs.60 Spd evs might seem weird but actually it what it need!(Speed stat:247) (You can check the speed tier for more information here.)
Also as for the Attack Evs and Sp.Att. evs I thought to try make it even.And also I think Rash nature could be more useful than Mild because already Basculin has pathetic Sp.Def. and it can't take a hit.
As for moves you have priority which is always a plus and with Adabtability it's even more beneficial!
Then there is the always reliable Waterfall to use which is powerful and has a flinch chance.Ice beam catches everyone off guard...Many Tangelas and Altarias thought they could wall you easily and died!Then there is HP grass for Seismitoads,Alomomolas,Samurotts etc.
I hope this set will help you! :)
 

Blast

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@GarchompPit

Sorry, but your post doesn't fit with this thread. What we're looking for are sets that are considered "overrated" because they perform POORLY in the meta, and suggest better alternatives. You said yourself that CB Basculin "works very well," which should automatically be a sign you shouldn't be telling other people not to use it (hence the term "Don't use this"). What you're basically doing is pointing out an underrated set and trying to sell it, which isn't the purpose of this thread. I would suggest posting your set here, where we discuss the general metagame and sets we've been using to success lately.

At any rate, your Basculin set looks pretty meh imo. It has a nice surprise factor, but your EVs and selection of moves detracts from two things CB Basculin has: great Speed, and the ability to check Jynx, a major threat. Standard CB Basculin can outspeed non-Scarf Jynx thanks to its nice base 98 Speed, and OHKO with anything other than its Water STABs. Your Basculin can't hope to do that, since you're outsped by virtually all variants of Jynx (as well as other top threats like Sawk and Zangoose). Also, between Water STABs, Ice Beam, and HP Grass, you can't do anything to Jynx while it can Lovely Kiss. For that kind of set, I'd rather use something like Samurott, who has better bulk and mixed offensive stats.

Sorry if I sounded harsh, but hopefully this helped :)
 
Don't use this:

Onix @ Eviolite
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Impish / Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
-Dragon Tail
-Rock Blast / Explosion / Earthquake
-Taunt

I've been noticing that lead Onix has been getting popular on the ladder lately, most likely due to the couple of guys on Youtube using it pretty decently,and it is pretty cool in that it has carved a niche for itself as decently fast taunter that can taunt SR leads and then set up its own rocks. With Eviolite, its Defense is even higher than Regirock's. However, this niche isn't really enough to use it over the SR setters in NU. Once it taunts and sets up rocks, it's usefulness is gone for the rest of the match. Even if Onix uses Explosion, it's not going to be harming anything with only 45 base Attack. Its stellar Defense is also misleading as Onix's 35 base HP comprises its physical bulk a lot. Mold Breaker Choice Banded Sawk is a common anti-lead and almost always OHKO's Onix. The only thing Onix has over over Stealth Rock setters in the tier is a speedy taunt, and this niche is simply not enough to warrant its use over other Pokemon who still fill in useful roles outside of setting up rocks.

Use this instead:

Golem @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
Evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Rock Blast
-Earthquake
-Sucker Punch

Golem is one of the best rock setters in the tier but also does much more than just set up rocks. Golem shares the same typing as Onix which means it also shares the same weaknesses, but it can work around those much more easily than Onix. Golem's attack is much higher than Onix's quite obviously, so it can actually threaten things with its Edgequake coverage unlike Onix. Golem's Rock Blast can actually break Subs which Onix can't claim. Golem even packs priority in the form of Sucker Punch which is invaluable as it can seriously hurt faster threats thinking that they're safe because of Golem's low Speed.. It can check and counter a lot more of the tier than Onix because of its combination of bulk, coverage, and priority. Golem does what Onix does bar Taunt, and does it much more effectively while also being very useful outside of a rock setting role. If you're looking for a rock setter that can also serve other purposes throughout a match, definitely use Golem over Onix.









 
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tennisace

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To add onto @HispanicPanic, that set is also outsped and OHKO'd 50% of the time by Choice Band Sawk through Sturdy.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Eviolite (custom): 254-300 (92.7 - 109.48%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
 
Don't use this


Carracosta @ Life Orb
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Shell Smash
-Stone Edge
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet

Although this set does pack a lot of power, I find due to the prevalence of physical walls that can stop this set, it doesn't always to accomplish a lot. Alomomola, Tangela, and Siesmitoed in particular are common enough to make this set rather unusable. Although he can break through walls (other than Seismitoad) after a boost, I have a different set in mind to make use of Carracosta's decent mixed attacking stats to break through it's checks faster, and decimate Seismitoad which is one of the best counters to the more common Physical set.

Use this instead


Carracosta @ Life Orb
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Shell Smash
-Stone Edge
-Hydro Pump
-Hidden Power Grass

Although Carracosta is still hard to setup, using this mixed set not only does Carracosta more effectively beat checks and obliterate Seismitoad, he also beats Pokemon that would usually laugh at a Specially-based SS sweeper. I feel that this is not only more usable then the standard set, it also manages to not be completely outclassed by Gorebyss by virtue of a powerful STAB Stone Edge. I also like that although this set uses a Speed boosting Nature, it can pretty much deal just as much damage thanks to Hydro Pump, although the low accuracy may bother some people. I've always liked Carracosta flavour wise, I think this shows that he can still be relevant.

Physical calcs
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 179-212 (53.75 - 63.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 70-84 (21.02 - 25.22%) -- possible 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 341-402 (68.61 - 80.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 175-208 (43.64 - 51.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mixed Calcs
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 250-295 (75.07 - 88.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 424-499 (85.31 - 100.4%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 691-816 (172.31 - 203.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Roselia: 368-434 (121.45 - 143.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 402-473 (110.74 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Don't use this


Carracosta @ Life Orb
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Shell Smash
-Stone Edge
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet

Although this set does pack a lot of power, I find due to the prevalence of physical walls that can stop this set, it doesn't always to accomplish a lot. Alomomola, Tangela, and Siesmitoed in particular are common enough to make this set rather unusable. Although he can break through walls (other than Seismitoad) after a boost, I have a different set in mind to make use of Carracosta's decent mixed attacking stats to break through it's checks faster, and decimate Seismitoad which is one of the best counters to the more common Physical set.

Use this instead


Carracosta @ Life Orb
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Shell Smash
-Stone Edge
-Hydro Pump
-Hidden Power Grass

Although Carracosta is still hard to setup, using this mixed set not only does Carracosta more effectively beat checks and obliterate Seismitoad, he also beats Pokemon that would usually laugh at a Specially-based SS sweeper. I feel that this is not only more usable then the standard set, it also manages to not be completely outclassed by Gorebyss by virtue of a powerful STAB Stone Edge. I also like that although this set uses a Speed boosting Nature, it can pretty much deal just as much damage thanks to Hydro Pump, although the low accuracy may bother some people. I've always liked Carracosta flavour wise, I think this shows that he can still be relevant.

Physical calcs
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 179-212 (53.75 - 63.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 70-84 (21.02 - 25.22%) -- possible 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 341-402 (68.61 - 80.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 175-208 (43.64 - 51.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mixed Calcs
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 250-295 (75.07 - 88.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 424-499 (85.31 - 100.4%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 691-816 (172.31 - 203.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Roselia: 368-434 (121.45 - 143.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 402-473 (110.74 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I don't think this is quite right for the thread mostly because both sets are rather effective at what they're supposed to do. I really like that mixed set, and I have used it before and enjoyed using it, but the major problem with it is lack of priority. Aqua jet is useful on the standard set because it allows Carracosta to kill the scarfers in the tier(usually after hazard damage) that would otherwise outspeed it and KO it such as Scarf Charizard and Primeape. Scarf Charizard, which would otherwise be chekced by the standard set, outspeeds your mixed set and OHKO's it with HP Grass after the Shell Smash defense drops. Primeape outspeeds and OHKO's it with Close Combat. Priority is extremely important on Costa as it needs the priority to secure kills on the faster Pokemon in the tier. Your set has very good surprise factor and Carracosta can use it pretty well, but I wouldn't say it completely outclasses the other set for the reasons I mentioned above. This thread is mostly to point out things that a new player might consider appealing but is completely outclassed by something else. Your set is more of an alternative. I'm not attacking you as your set is really neat, I just don't think it quite belongs in this thread. Overall, your set's nice, and I think you should post it in the Stage 10 thread. I'll edit my post with a link to it once I find it!
 
Don't use this:

Onix @ Eviolite
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Impish / Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Rock Blast / Explosion
-Taunt

I've been noticing that lead Onix has been getting popular on the ladder lately, most likely due to the couple of guys on Youtube using it pretty decently,and it is pretty cool in that it has carved a niche for itself as decently fast taunter that can taunt SR leads and then set up its own rocks. With Eviolite, its Defense is even higher than Regirock's. However, this niche isn't really enough to use it over the SR setters in NU. Once it taunts and sets up rocks, it's usefulness is gone for the rest of the match. Even if Onix uses Explosion, it's not going to be harming anything with only 45 base Attack. Its stellar Defense is also misleading as Onix's 35 base HP comprises its physical bulk a lot. Mold Breaker Choice Banded Sawk is a common anti-lead and almost always OHKO's Onix. The only thing Onix has over over Stealth Rock setters in the tier is a speedy taunt, and this niche is simply not enough to warrant its use over other Pokemon who still fill in useful roles outside of setting up rocks.
That's why Dragon Tail should be an option to have some phazing use after setting up the rocks. In my opinion Onix lead is not that bad, a set consisting of Stealth Rock, Taunt, Dragon Tail and Earthquake/Rock Blast/Explosion works decently. But I agree Golem is better suited as a SR lead especially with Custap Berry, and has more utility in the tier.
 
That's why Dragon Tail should be an option to have some phazing use after setting up the rocks. In my opinion Onix lead is not that bad, a set consisting of Stealth Rock, Taunt, Dragon Tail and Earthquake/Rock Blast/Explosion works decently. But I agree Golem is better suited as a SR lead especially with Custap Berry, and has more utility in the tier.
I didn't say that Onix wasn't usable, just that it was outclassed which is the point of the thread. Dragon Tail has its uses on Onix, but I doubt it's going to live long enough to really use it to great effect unless it's using a Rest/Talk set with Roar and Dragon Tail to bypass the lowered priority. It's fast for SR setter, but base 70 speed still isn't that fast in this meta. It's physical bulk is pretty good, but it still dies to CB Sawk 50% of the time, and it pretty much has no special bulk. I agree that Dragon Tail can be useful on it, but I just don't see it living long enough to really make use of it, especially against more offensive teams. You agree that Golem is better overall, which is the point of the thread. Don't use Onix as a Custap Lead or Utility mon, use Golem instead. It has a niche, but it just isn't enough to use it over Golem. I'll edit my post to put in Dragon Tail though. Your feedback is appreciated!
 
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Punchshroom

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Oh snap, nice catch, the speed was initially meant to outspeed base 95s and stuff. Thanks for that.
 

Laga

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Before I start with this post...
Doesn't "Don't Use That, Use This" make more sense than the current title? idk just nitpick


Not completely sure if this comparison fits this thread completely, but I have personally seen this set a few times, and tried it myself. Never have I seen it sweep effectively. The other sets though, are very effective in my opinion.

Don't Use That

Eelektross @ Leftovers
Levitate
SpD spread and nature (or attack spread, still bad)
- Coil
- ThunderPunch
- Drain Punch
- Aqua Tail

While Coil Eelektross may seem fantastic on paper, but it lacks key resistances ( lol electric and ground that's it) to set up effectively. Even though it is quite a bulky Pokemon, all it has to heal itself is Leftovers, and is therefore easily worn down. Since Coil doesn't raise Speed, sweeping just becoms that much harder, and it has like no synergy with your average team, since it loses it's wallbreaking / pivot capabilities. I think this is enough to justify never using this set.


Wasting Eelektross's capabilities of acting as a bulky pivot or wallbreaker isn't a very good idea, so
instead, Use This

Eelektross @ E-belt for wallbreaker / Leftovers for pivot
Levitate
140 Atk / 244 SpA / 124 Spe Rash for wallbreaker and 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe Modest for pivot.
- Thunderbolt
- Superpower for wallbreaker / Volt Switch for pivot
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain

I know it's totally lame to just automatically agree with Smogon's analysis, but honestly, Eelektross isn't a sweeper, and won't honestly ever work well as one. It's real roles are that of a Wallbreaker or a Pivot. One of the sets completely destroys Lickilicky + Alomomola, one of the most annoying cores of NU. The other set provides a slow, hard hitting Volt Switch combined with excellent coverage, able to sponge hits and provide effectively free switch-ins for your potentially frail sweepers or glass cannons. Definitely a better idea than trying to Coil-ball an opposition and basically ask to be worn down whilst providing little to no synergy with most teams.

I think this comparison is justified (even though Coil only has an OO mention in the official Smogon analysis) by how much I see newer players use this on the ladder. I thought newer players followed Smogon, but I guess they found out tross had Coil and started using it. I even used it myself once (like 2 battles, then I realized it was bad), considering how good it looks on paper.
 

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