DP Groudon

Colonel M

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/groudon

Okay, so I've used this set before and thought I'd like to post it here. If it isn't approved or needs more tweaking or even some logs I can deal with it. Anyways someone introduced me to this set in the earlier D/P days and thought it was quite successful. The idea is Thunder Wave and Swords Dance and keeping yourself as bulky as possible. EV suggestions or whatnot is also acceptable.

Also, if Aldaron or any mod / admin reads this, could you please move the old D/P Groudon Peer Edit of mine to the Archive? Sorry to ask this after I told to keep it but I think a new topic would be better for something like this. Anyways, onto the set:

[SET]
name: ParaDancer
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
EVs: 200 HP / 112 Atk / 108 Def / 88 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set looks unusual but is effective when used properly. The main idea is to figure out who switches into Groudon. Think of Lugia as the prime example as he attempts to stall you out with Reflect and Roost, leaving you useless. This set proposes a different idea than the normal "hit and run" strategy or cripple everything in sight strategy. Instead, it meshes the ideas together for quite the posing threat. It's best to Thunder Wave in the early-game when everything is faster than Groudon. Most Pokemon that switch-in to take Groudon's attacks aren't usually a Ground-type themselves so this makes the strategy even more appealing. After crippling some necessary Pokemon you can Swords Dance while the opponent switches or on Pokemon that don't pose an immediate threat to you. After that you can tear apart everything with STAB Earthquake and a boosted Stone Edge. Keep in mind that Stealth Rock is necessary on this set to help generate necessary OHKOs and 2HKOs after a Swords Dance. WIthout Stealth Rock you will have a harder time beating down your usual counters even with paralysis on your side.</p>

<p>The reason why paralysis is the crux of this set is for many reasons. First off Lugia will have a difficult time blocking Stone Edges as Roost will not remove the Rock weakness. Then the 25% chance of being fully paralyzed is also a benefit and allows free Swords Dances or even more spamming of his attacks. Finally having a Pokemon slower than Groudon is always a benefit for you and trouble for your opponent.</p>

<p>The EVs here seem somewhat complicated but work well together. 200 HP EVs grant 391 HP, a Leftover's recovery number. The Attack EVs garuntee that Lugia is grounded down after a Swords Dance'd Stone Edge. The Speed EVs generate 238 Speed which is just enough to outpace neutral base 100s with no Speed. The rest is thrown into Defense for durability.</p>
 
This is quite similar to the 'Supporting Groudon' set, couldn't you merge it instead? I don't think it warrants a separate moveset.
 
The Supporting Groudon plays very differently from this one. Note that it lacks Stealth Rock and instead uses Swords Dance. However, if anyone feels that it should be merged then any badged users and such confirm it.
 
The Supporting Groudon set isn't meant to sweep, it's meant to aid other sweepers through stuff like Stealth Rock and Toxic. This serves an entirely different purpose and definitely deserves it's own set.

Lum Berry should also be an option as this thing can sometimes set up against Giratina due to WoW's low base accuracy and paralysis hax. (75% acc. effectively comes 37.5%) With Lum berry to save you at least once, you should be able to get in at least 2 dances, allowing you 2HKO(?) Giratina with Earthquake. Due to it's reasonably bulky SpDef spread, a Darkrai's Dark Pulse (few carry Ice Beam) will never OHKO and most will Dark Void if Sleep Clause hasn't been activated. Another oppurtunity for Lum Berry to save your sweep giving you a free turn to either paralyze or earthquake, either crippling or (almost) killing the Darkrai.

It should also probably be mentioned that Paralysis support is the crux of this set and not only helps Groudon outspeed it's usual counters, the chance of fully paralysis can give you free turns to set up Swords Dances. Body Slam (over Thunder Wave) is another option against opposing Groudons (quite effective against the rising amount of Rock Polish variants).
 
Yeah those seem like good suggestions. I like the idea of Lum Berry on this set as well but I'm a little nervous about using Body Slam. I guess it would work since you're still using an Attack and paralyzing Groudon is always useful. I'll throw both in because I have used them both before.
 
Well, seeing how I have been using this set practically since the beginning of the Uber Ladder on Official (6 months), I believe I must comment. Firstly, I think it is pretty dumb to keep the same EVs as you have on the Supporting set. I can't remember the exact spread I use, but I would at least switch your attack and defense EVs, and dump those Special Defense EVs into Speed. While you will be able to easily get the para on Lugia (always use T-Wave, why risk body slam?) you will need to be able to outrun 90% of the 90 base speed Pokemon, namely half the metagame, who keep their speeds below 230. By simply putting those EVs into speed, you don't need to switch out say if a Specs Kyogre comes in on your Swords Dance.

You want put the EVs into Defense to hold off things like Dialga and other Groudon, and with SD, you can afford to drop the attack quite a bit. Also, I would heavily emphasize how much SR means on this set, or you may still have some troubles with Lugia.

In All: Remove Body Slam and Lum Berry, as Thunder-Wave and Leftovers will go much farther in the concept of the set: Serving as a Defensive Wall that can also put a huge dent into the opponent's team. Also mention Stealth Rock, and change the EVs to show how this set plays differently than the Supporting set.
 
Just posting to say that I edited the thread title because there are two Groudon edits by Colonel M on the front page and I think that merging the threads would be confusing for discussion.
 
Oh, sorry about that. You can actually move the other one if possible.

I'll look at Body Slam and Lum Berry later today Fables whether it's worth it or not. Body Slam on opposing Groudon's, despite the 30% chance, is still nice paired up with Swords Dance. Lum Berry I think I'll keep as an option though as it does work wonders as I've said.
 
I'm switching up the EVs slightly. I'm considering a different spread. How does this look?

252 HP / 136 Def / 60 Spe / 60 SpD

First off I feel that 4HKO w/Ice Beam is still something to consider. In the end Lugia might attempt to beat you out with Ice Beam instead and using the Special Defense EVs aren't begging for much really. There is the same HP as usual. I've put 60 Speed EVs to match 230 - albiet I don't know how extremely useful this is but it's worked. The rest is, of course, dumped into Defense. With the Adamant nature in mind Groudon still has 369 Attack which isn't horrible for a "Bulky Sweeper" I guess. If more Attack should be added feel free to suggest it.

I'm taking out Body Slam as I've found it useless. Not sure about Lum Berry however because the escaping of a nasty side-effect is always useful but I'll add a note that Leftovers normally triumphs over Lum Berry most of the time. Everyone feel free to suggest other possible EV spreads.
 
112 Atk EVs is a good benchmark, because it guarantees Groudon will kill Lugia (the standard from the analysis, which isn't great but some people still use) with +2 Stone Edge, when it's taken Stealth Rocks damage and a turn of Leftovers recovery.
 
Your spread looks pretty good, mine is only slightly different:

200 HP / 32 Atk / 152 Def / 88 Speed Adamant

400 HP for maximum leftovers recovery, 88 speed to hit 238, 2 points above neutral base 100 pokes like Jirachi and Celebi who usually run no speed in Ubers. 32 Atk is to hit a score of 378. This is done to increase the chances of killing a 81% Lugia with Stone Edge (assuming you were able to para it on the first encounter). Luckily, many Lugia are shifting towards moving a lot of defense into speed to counter Rayquaza, so the EVs might not be has needed. However, it is annoying having 2% Lugia set up Reflect before they die.

It looks like you removed Lum Berry all together, which is the best option in my opinion. Lastly, I highly suggest you mention the importance of SR somewhere, or Lugia can still set up reflect, and you don't want full HP Lugia running around if Stone Edge were to miss.
 
I'll add the comments about Stealth Rock (I was getting to that actually) and I'll also glance around. So can we agree on this?

200 HP / 112 Atk / 108 Def / 88 Spe sounds good? This combines both Fabble's and umbarsc's suggestions. I would like that 4HKO on Ice Beam but I guess it's a small price to pay since the lack of HP means there needs to be more SpD (and frankly that's not necessary).
 
I still think Lum Berry deserves a mention for the reasons, i've already stated. Body Slam is kinda optional, but Lum Berry definitely has proven to be very useful on several occasions.
 
Hate to say this Train Man but I think I have to turn down Lum Berry.

Theoretically it sounds good to use. Blocking status to prevent interruption from your Swords Dances sound great and all. But we also must remember that this Groudon should also be able to take a hit or two if necessary and this set does a fine job of establishing it. For Body Slam and Lum Berry I am willing to put it into Other Options. But I just see that Leftovers is a superior option on this set.
 
Okay, so I think I might add this in as well (seeing as there has been no discussion for a while / etc). If you want you can tell me not to and why or add whatever you want to. Two to three hours on this one too I guess.
 
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