DPP Mamoswine: EVs

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Dragontamer

There is no "EVs" section in the current Mamoswine analysis. So here's my attempt for a first draft

EDIT: Now in Second Draft. Tried to simplify the wording down.

Edit: Integrated Xia's edits + more stuff.

EDIT: Major Revision: Managed to cut out about 150 words and still say about the same thing. Consider this "first draft" material again. I'll double-check the spelling and grammar later.

[EVs]

<p> A pure physical Mamoswine should max both Attack and Speed and select a Jolly or Adamant nature. Jolly can outspeed neutral natured Gyarados, Lucario, Timid Heatran and Jolly Breloom. On the other hand, a Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine will have a better chance to 2HKO Swampert, and Adamant Choice Band Mamoswine will have a better chance to OHKO a Tank Metagross. </p>

<p> MixMamo is harder to EV correctly. With 0 SpAtk EVs and hail, MixMamo can 2HKO Skarmory, and even OHKOs 252 HP Yache Salamence with Blizzard after Stealth Rock. Increasing the Special Attack EVs to 64 increases the 2HKO chance against 252 HP Rotom-A, and helps against Celebi and Hippowdon switchins. However, MixMamo will have to sacrifice either Speed or Attack to gain this Special Attack. Some notable Speed benchmarks for Mamoswine are 244 (192 EVs, Adamant) outspeeding Jolly Tyranitar, 246 (200 EVs, Adamant) outspeeding standard Celebi, 254 (232 EVs, Adamant) for Modest Heatran, 270 (200 EVs, Jolly nature) for Adamant Heracross or 280 (236 EVs, Jolly nature) for Adamant / Modest Lucario. </p>

<p>MixMamo can sacrifice Attack EVs for more Special Attack. A positive nature and 168 Attack EVs guarantees a clean OHKO on 252 HP Tyranitar with Earthquake, and still 2HKOes max/max Swampert with Earthquake, Stealth Rock and hail. Bulky Salamence without Intimidate still falls to Ice Shard and Stealth Rock, and 252 HP Latias is cleanly 2HKOed by Ice Shard. Jolly 252 Attack EVs is even weaker, with only a chance to OHKO 252 HP Tyranitar.<p>

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I'm unsure if anyone remembers the "SkarmPoints" attack scale, so I'll just do a quick summary.

Skarmpoints for +Nature 252 Attack: 238
Skarmpoints for +Nature 168 Attack: 225 (94.5% the damage)
Skarmpoints for Neutral Nature 252 Attack: 217 (91.1% of the damage)

Minimum Damage SkarmCents:+Nature 252 Attack and Life Orb with...
Earthquake: 39 SkarmCents (2HKO max/max Machamp and weaker. 2hit KOs 0/0 Groudon !!)
SuperPower: 31 SkarmCents (Almost 2HKOs 0/0 Metagross)
Stone Edge: 26 SkarmCents (2hit KO 0/0 Mamoswine)
Ice Shard: 16 SkarmCents

Minimum Damage SkarmCents:+Nature 168 Attack and Life Orb...
Earthquake: 37 SkarmCents (Loses OHKO on Max/Max Raikou)
SuperPower: 29 SkarmCents
Stone Edge: 24 SkarmCents
Ice Shard: 15 SkarmCents

Minimum Damage SkarmCents:252 Attack and Life Orb
Earthquake: 35 SkarmCents (Loses Guarenteed OHKO on 252 TTar)
SuperPower: 28 SkarmCents
Stone Edge: 23 SkarmCents
Ice Shard: 14.5 SkarmCents

Thats all for now.
 
Ah, took me a while to make sense of some of it. The +8 EVs and then the +2 was throwing me off for a second, as I was wondering if you meant the Breloom was at +2 or just super jolly or something. You should probably say something like "X EVs allow you to outspeed pokemon aiming to outspeed Jolly Breloom."

I suppose it could use a sentence at the end about throwing the rest in HP, because it only mentions attack and speed.

Usually, the EV section is set-specific and makes a firm recommendation on EVs. Just looking at the above text, it seems that you'd probably want to run 4HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed to simplify things, unless there are certain attacks you want to survive.

I don't use Mamoswine often, but these sections usually say something as follows:
The choice between Adamant and Jolly is a difficult one. Jolly allows you to outpace neutral Lucario, Gyarados, Dragonite, and Togekiss, as well as ensuring that you outrun positive natured Heatran, Breloom, and Smeargle. Adamant, however, increases your chances of a 2HKO on even the bulkiest of Swampert, as well as boosting damage in general.

Ah, and Zapdos is 100 base speed.

Hope I helped.
 
Plain ol' Physical Sweeper Mamo with 252/252 is easy enough. Jolly vs Adamant is an issue as you've noted...

I guess I was thinking about MixMamo, which needs 64 Sp. Attack EVs from somewhere (either Speed or Attack, or both) to score those critical OHKOs or Two-Hit KOs on Zapdos / Celebi / Skarm. Taking it from Speed means you lose out on Heatran, while taking it from Attack means you may miss some OHKO or Two-hit KO chances on Swampert or T-Tar.

Point taken on the difficult to read part. I'll revise the analysis soon, try to simplify things down a bit.
 
Alternatively, you can go with the old EVs.

252 Atk / 24 SpA / 232 Spe with a Naughty nature lets you outspeed Modest Heatran and 2HKO Skarmory after SR, though idk about other physical walls.
 
This needed quite a lot of work, but it seems fine content-wise. To help keep this from being an issue in the future, take a look at the grammar standards thread. I also tried to keep your use of "+nature" to a minimum, since it became fairly redundant while reading your analysis. Also, don't include spaces between your <p> tags and the beginning or ends of your sentences; it subtlety alters how the text shows up on-site. Once these things are done, this will be both informative and mechanically sound. =]

<p>Mamoswine's base 80 Speed sits at a critical region. It ties with Dragonite and Togekiss, loses to Gyarados (81), Kingdra (85), and beats Heatran (77), Smeargle (75), and Breloom (70). Faster bulky Pokemon like Zapdos (100), Tentacruel (100), and Suicune (85) may not put enough EVs into Speed, giving you an opportunity to outrun the bulkier sets.</p>

<p> Mamoswine needs a positive Attack nature and 176 EVs to beat Jolly Breloom. (MixMamo Life Orb Ice Shard only has a chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage) To outpace +Speed Heatran, a nature boosting Speedand 232 EVs are sufficient. You can run Jolly 240 EVs to beat the pokemon designed to beat Heatran, such as Swords Dance Tentacruel. Running Jolly 184 Speed EVs will similarly beat the Pokemon trying to beat Breloom. Without a +Speed nature, Mamoswine cannot be faster than Jolly Breloom or Timid Heatran.</p>

<p>On the Attack EVs side, Mamoswine will never OHKO bulky Salamence with Ice Shard after Intimidate, but it will have a 43% chance to kill it using Ice Shard with a +Attack nature, 252 Attack EVs, Stealth Rocks and one turn of hail damage. A positive nature and 168 Attack EVs is sufficient to guarantee a clean OHKO on 252 HP Tyranitar with Earthquake, and still 2HKOes max/max Swampert with Earthquake, Stealth Rocks and hail. Note that relying on residual hail damage still gives your opponent a "final attack" before they die. Bulky Salamence without Intimidate still falls to Ice Shard and Stealth Rock, and 252 HP Latias is cleanly 2HKOed by Ice Shard.<p>

<p>Because Mamoswine benefits from both max Speed and max Attack, the choice between Jolly and Adamant will be a difficult one. Jolly will allow you to beat neutral Lucario, Gyarados, and positive natured Heatran, Breloom and Smeargle. Adamant increases your chances of a 2HKO on the bulkiest of Swampert. MixMamo has one additional issue: to get the critical 64 Special Attack stat, Mamoswine will need to lose either Speed or Attack EVs. You can settle for beating Jolly Tyranitar, Timid Magnezone and Adamant Scizor with 192 Speed EVs (or 200 Speed EVs to beat 36 Speed Celebi and Zapdos), or you can take the Special Attack EVs from your physical Attack, granting you the Blizzard 2HKO on Skarmory and Hippowdon, while making the Earthquake 2HKO on Swampert less likely.</p>
 
/\ I guess my work was a bit ambiguous, looking at some of your edits. I'll try to keep things to the site's standard in the future as well. The aside next to the Jolly Breloom was to note that Mamoswine cannot OHKO with Ice Shard, so if you want to reliably beat Jolly Breloom 100% of the time, you need to outrun him with Blizzard or have some additional support.

I think I'll have to go pull out my English textbook... I've forgotten how to make paragraphs flow and stuff...

So here are a few clarifications and concision (cut out a few words):

<p>Mamoswine's base 80 Speed sits at a critical region. It ties with Dragonite and Togekiss, loses to Gyarados (81), Kingdra (85), and beats Heatran (77), Smeargle (75), and Breloom (70). Faster bulky Pokemon like Zapdos (100), Tentacruel (100), and Suicune (85) may not put enough EVs into Speed, giving you an opportunity to outrun the bulkier sets.</p>

<p> Mamoswine needs a positive Speed nature and 176 EVs to be faster than Jolly Breloom. (Life Orb Ice Shard only has a chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage). +Speed and 232 EVs are sufficient to outpace Timid Heatran. Jolly 240 EVs beats the pokemon designed to beat Heatran, such as Swords Dance Tentacruel. Similarly, Jolly 184 EVs beat pokemon who try to beat Jolly Breloom. Without a +Speed nature, Mamoswine cannot be faster than Jolly Breloom or Timid Heatran.</p>

<p>On the Attack EVs side, Mamoswine will never OHKO bulky Salamence with Ice Shard after Intimidate, but it will have a 43% chance to kill it using Ice Shard with a +Attack nature, 252 Attack EVs, Stealth Rocks and one turn of hail damage. A positive nature and 168 Attack EVs guarantees a clean OHKO on 252 HP Tyranitar with Earthquake, and still 2HKOes max/max Swampert with Earthquake, Stealth Rocks and hail. Note that relying on residual hail damage still gives your opponent a "final attack" before they die. Bulky Salamence without Intimidate still falls to Ice Shard and Stealth Rock, and 252 HP Latias is cleanly 2HKOed by Ice Shard. Neutral Nature and 252 Attack EVs is even weaker, with only a chance to OHKO 252 HP Tyranitar.<p>

<p>Because Mamoswine benefits from both max Speed and max Attack, the choice between Jolly and Adamant will be a difficult one. Jolly will allow you to beat neutral Lucario, Gyarados, and positive natured Heatran, Breloom and Smeargle. Adamant increases your chances of a 2HKO on the bulkiest of Swampert. MixMamo has one additional issue: to get the critical 64 Special Attack stat, Mamoswine will need to lose either Speed or Attack EVs. You can settle for beating Jolly Tyranitar, Timid Magnezone and Adamant Scizor with 192 Speed EVs (or 200 Speed EVs to beat 36 Speed Celebi and Zapdos), or you can take the Special Attack EVs from your physical Attack, granting you the Blizzard 2HKO on Skarmory and Hippowdon, while making the Earthquake 2HKO on Swampert less likely.</p>
 
Ah, sorry for that mistake, I assumed the wrong meaning for that phrase. =P

The rest looks fine, just make sure the OP gets updated so it's all right.
 
/\ On the contrary, it is my mistake for writing an ambiguous sentence. So thanks for catching the mistake :-)

As stated earlier... I'll be pulling my textbook out now. Seems like I'm forgetting the basics of English at the moment...
 
Probably not important, but I thought I'd take a look at the history and see what happened to the EVs section (thought it may just be not showing up due to a HTML error or something). Apparently it was removed in an update on the 20th of October. Here is the old version if anyone is interested:

[EVs]

<p>The Choice Bander should always have max Attack. Maximum Speed is recommended but there are other benchmarks. Some notable Speed benchmarks for Mamoswine are 244 (192 EVs, Adamant) for Jolly Tyranitar, 254 (232 EVs, Adamant) for Modest Heatran, 270 (200 EVs, Jolly nature) for Adamant Heracross or 280 (236 EVs, Jolly nature) for Adamant / Modest Lucario. Any remaining EVs should go in HP.</p>

<p>On the Curse set, you can either pour your EVs into Attack for more initial power, or into Special Defense to try and take hits on both sides. Lots of Attack is the recommended option. Mamoswine is one of the few Pokemon that gets the best defenses by splitting the EVs into both defenses before maxing HP. The HP given in the Curse is the ideal amount to use with max Attack (and the remaining EVs can be put into either defense as you see fit).</p>

<p>The EVs on the mix set allow Mamoswine to outrun all non-Scarfed Modest Heatran and Jolly Tyranitar, the former of which is very threatening to a Hail based team where mixed Mamoswine would likely be seen. If using in standard OU, the speed can be dropped to 244 (192 EVs). Rest in Sp. Attack.</p>
Click to expand...
 
/\ That first paragraph flows much better than what I have and conveys more information. Shows how much work still needs to be done to my post. To speed up the process, I'll be stealing some of that. :-)
 
From looking at the other sets, 2-hit KO should be 2HKO.

"even OHKOs 252 HP Yache Salamence with Blizzard and Stealth Rocks"

Should read "with Blizzard after Stealth Rock"
Stealth Rock is singular and "after" seems to be the convention in analyses.

Personally, I'm not sure if there are any 252 HP Yache Salamences out there.... Perhaps it would be more fitting to make a statement about Dragonite, which more commonly holds a Yache and boasts more special defense. But that's purely an opinion.
 
0 HP Yache Dragonite is always OHKOed by Life Orb 0 EVed Mamoswine Blizzard after stealth rocks. But 252 HP Dragonite always survives.

So Blizzard > Yache on DD Dragonite, but I somehow doubt that DD Dragonite would stay in on the most powerful Ice Shard anyway... I can imagine a Bulky Salamence thinking he could survive the Ice Shard after intimidate (because Intimidate + Salamence > Mamo)

2HKO is fixed.
 
Now with the new "Optional Changes" section, I don't believe this is necessary anymore. I suggest you merge what you have with the current "Other Options" section on Mamoswine's analysis, because that's where all EV talk is supposed to go now. Remember to name it [Optional Changes] though.
 
Ick, Mamo's "Other Options" is quite large. Gonna be 7+ paragraphs if I just append the two together. Merging the two while keeping concision will require me to cut out "Other Options". (Some of those "paragraphs" are just single sentences... but its still a bit large)

EDIT: This EVs miniproject is going to be put on hold for now, given the new information. I'll be writing a new topic about "DPP Mamoswine: Optional Changes". It will essentially be a merge between this and the current Other Options... but it will probably be a significant enough rewrite that it deserves its own topic.
 
Actually, you don't have to include everything you have right now. The Optional Changes section is only supposed to include other options. In this case, you wouldn't be saying that "Mamoswine should run max Speed and Attack and run a etc etc", because that's already said in the analysis itself. The point of the whole new section was to limit the amount of repetition throughout the analysis, so you could cut out a lot of stuff you have right now.
 
Oh yeah, I know what you mean. I was worried you'd take it the wrong way (but it seems a bit late to edit that sentence)

Either way, that would mean a non-trivial merge between "Other Options" and "Optional Changes". So... I think it still deserves a new topic.
 
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