Hello, the DPP council sent out a survey after SPL to all DPP players involved with the tournament in a significant capacity, as well as "qualified" players by standard Old Generation Council metrics. We asked questions geared towards finding out how they feel about the current metagame. We received 33/50 responses. Thank you to all those who responded: Excal Laurel egalvanc DeepBlueC BIHI Kristyl Jirachee oiponabys BKC Triangles Lazuli Dridri457 Pideous Pkel SweeTforU twash Emeral Malekith august Fakes CyberOdin✝ Conflict M Dragon McMeghan Mishimono Ara Janik Le Don Student of Sinnoh SFG mind gaming Cubic Skunk Sheik :! We will show highlights from each question, as well as show each council member's thoughts. Without further ado, let's get into it!
Enjoyment and quality of the tier is generally appraised to be roughly an 8/10 and 7/10 respectively, which is a great result! People participating in SPL and big DPP tournaments are enjoying the tier and finding it to be a good metagame. As for teambuilding, we see strictly left-skewed results for enjoyment, which is great. This indicates that the DPP playerbase overall enjoys teambuilding in this tier, which is an improved result compared to previous surveys. There are mixed opinions on how easy it is to teambuild, which is to be expected.
Next, we asked people the biggest question right up front: "Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Jirachi in DPP OU?"
Some noteworthy statistics:
- 6.3% of people consider Jirachi to be balanced
- 40.6% of people consider Jirachi to be borderline
- 53.2% of people consider Jirachi to be problematic
- 68.7% of people think that no tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Despite many finding Jirachi to be problematic in some capacity (>50% of survey respondents), there is a supermajority that does not feel that tiering action taking place most closely aligned with them compared to other options in the survey. While many had reasonable arguments for banning Jirachi (Serene Grace shenanigans not limited to Iron Head, Body Slam, Fire Punch, and Ice Punch), others also had reasonable arguments for not wanting Jirachi to be banned (not broken, provides a fundamental balance by aiding teambuilding and checking many Pokemon defensively, fast defensive Steel, concern of the unknown consequences of radically shaking the tier up).
Based on Jirachi's top 3 usage in the tier, overall enjoyment of DPP being high on average (8/10), and overall lack of direct support for tiering action based on this survey, there is not much to be done right now. These results warrant some concern, but they are improved from last year's results, Jirachi is considered by more and more people to not be the #1 Pokemon in the tier, and it's less centralizing on the metagame due to deeper exploration into heavy offense/defense as well as further tier optimization. We are not necessarily seeing Jirachi strategies be more optimized to maximize metagame degeneracy; we are seeing less of that overall according to SPL usage statistics over the past few years.
Overall, the council will keep a close eye on Jirachi and the metagame's developments as time goes on. We know that Jirachi is widely controversial; and with more support from SPL and qualified players, we would gladly take additional steps to address the controversy. But because Jirachi is so widely used in the tier, direct support for tiering action was lacking, and DPP enjoyment is overall high, we will sit on our hands for now.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
Next, we asked people about some other Pokemon in the tier: "Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Clefable in DPP OU?"
Noteworthy statistics:
- 31.3% of people consider Clefable to be balanced
- 34.4% of people consider Clefable to be borderline
- 34.4% of people consider Clefable to be problematic
- 75% of people think that no tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
These results are the most unfavorable for Clefable we have seen in our past 3 survey iterations. More people are viewing Clefable as problematic and not balanced than before; however, 75% of people did not feel most closely aligned to tiering action. While some view Clefable as too invalidating for many special attackers, others view it as being on a thinner thread against the special attackers. It's undeniable that special attackers often have to make uncomfortable concessions to account for Clefable. That said, Clefable is not the only DPP behemoth who is heavily restrictive on special attackers (*cough* Tyranitar Latias Jirachi *cough*). We clearly need to keep an eye on Clefable, as more of the playerbase is dissatisfied with it than ever before, but we will see if this continues to be a trend or not.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
"Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Latias in DPP OU?"
Some noteworthy statistics:
- 53.1% of people think Latias is balanced
- 6.3% of people think tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Not much to say here, honestly. With Tyranitar, Clefable, and especially Jirachi in the tier, very few consider Latias to be anything more than Borderline. If Jirachi were to leave the tier, based on the responses in the survey, almost no one would find Latias to be balanced, but that is not the reality we're living in. No one on the council feels Latias is more than borderline and tiering action is far from the realm of being considered at this time.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
"Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Sleep in DPP OU?"
Some noteworthy statistics:
- 43.8% of people consider Sleep to be balanced
- 18.8% of people consider Sleep to be borderline
- 37.5% of people consider Sleep to be problematic
- 75% of people think that no tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Sleep being a necessary tool for stall/defensive teams is seen as a myth by at least half the council. Defensive teams have more consistent flowcharting against sleep and Breloom heavily restricts several key stallbreakers (CBtar the most significant one, who can trap/remove clefable consistently). That said, not even close to enough people view sleep as an issue or feel closely aligned with taking tiering action. While many feel sleep is a "dumb" mechanic or something of that sort, others find Breloom's current presence to be a valuable and healthy tool. Several of those who complained about sleep in the survey also didn't necessarily support tiering action. Others also mentioned sleep being unhealthy in combination with trappers (Tyranitar, Magne(ton/zone)). We will continue to keep our eye on sleep, but there's nothing to be done at the moment.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
"Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Machamp in DPP OU?"
Some noteworthy statistics:
- 25% of people consider Machamp to be balanced
- 31.3% of people consider Machamp to be borderline
- 43.8% of people consider Machamp to be problematic
- 34.4% of people think that tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
This is the first time we've surveyed Machamp. Out of everything in the survey, Machamp had the most responses that most closely aligned with wanting tiering action. Although it wasn't viewed quite as problematic as Jirachi overall, that fact is still worth noting. In all aspects of no tiering action results, people mentioned things like, "Dynamic Punch should be banned", "No Guard should be banned", etc, and the consensus seems to be that people don't think Machamp provides much value in the tier but that it isn't broken, or that they don't want to ban Machamp but Dynamic Punch/No Guard should be banned, which we can't do according to tiering policy. Whether that leads one to want to ban it or not depends on the respondent. We found overall that there are not many who are passionate about Machamp's place in the tier, and found that others are passionate about wanting it gone.
The survey results suggest that Machamp is not broken and technically, there is a supermajority that doesn't feel most closely aligned with tiering action; however, unlike Jirachi, Machamp has very low usage (only 5 times used this past SPL), and looking more closely at the survey responses, there's a key difference. Jirachi is polarizing; people either want it gone desperately, don't want it gone at all, or feel that they'd rather keep it. Machamp doesn't have the same types of responses. It's hard to get a true read on how the playerbase feels from the Machamp responses because there were very few positive attributes noted about it that contribute value to the metagame. I would say at the moment that Machamp doesn't have grounds for tiering action, but further, public discussion about the Pokemon should occur, as it has never been focused on before unlike other tier elements and it had concerning results in the survey. As an example, Machamp's results were overall worse than Clefable's across the board. More people think it's problematic, fewer people think it's balanced, and more people would like to see tiering action on it.
The DPP council has unanimously agreed that public discussion on Machamp should/can occur; however, the DPP council has not agreed unanimously that any action should occur on Machamp. Stay tuned for more information in the future.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
After we finished asking about all these Pokemon and sleep, we asked a few more questions to wrap up the survey.
"What, if anything, would you do to improve DPP OU?"
We had a varied mix of banning Jirachi, Clefable, Machamp, Sleep, doing nothing, etc. Nothing really noteworthy came from this section.
---
That's pretty much it! If anyone is interested in hearing additional information that was in the survey, feel free to post about it here. I encourage all those who filled out the survey as well as anyone reading to post your thoughts on everything here. Thank you for reading, and a special thank you to everyone on the DPP council for contributing to this post as well as the discussions we had about the results.
Next, we asked people the biggest question right up front: "Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Jirachi in DPP OU?"
- 6.3% of people consider Jirachi to be balanced
- 40.6% of people consider Jirachi to be borderline
- 53.2% of people consider Jirachi to be problematic
- 68.7% of people think that no tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Borderline
Jirachi is borderline only because serene grace increases its chances at hax -- it's not powerful enough offensively and not as centralizing as it used to be. Jirachi faces more competition on defensive teams (Bronzong) as well as heavily offensive teams (Metagross). Its spikes weakness, lack of raw power, and lower physical defense/bulk in some respects than its fellow Steel/Psychics limit it from being too overpowered. There are more centralizing Pokemon in the metagame than Jirachi (Tyranitar, Latias) and that speaks volumes.
Jirachi is borderline only because serene grace increases its chances at hax -- it's not powerful enough offensively and not as centralizing as it used to be. Jirachi faces more competition on defensive teams (Bronzong) as well as heavily offensive teams (Metagross). Its spikes weakness, lack of raw power, and lower physical defense/bulk in some respects than its fellow Steel/Psychics limit it from being too overpowered. There are more centralizing Pokemon in the metagame than Jirachi (Tyranitar, Latias) and that speaks volumes.
Problematic, no tiering action
I would actually support action against Jirachi as I don’t love the restrictions it places on team building (being able to run a wide range of sets and being a Queen of the long game). I would support a Jirachi test but only the Pokémon itself
I would actually support action against Jirachi as I don’t love the restrictions it places on team building (being able to run a wide range of sets and being a Queen of the long game). I would support a Jirachi test but only the Pokémon itself
Problematic, tiering action
Unbalanced AND uncompetitive package of tools
Unbalanced AND uncompetitive package of tools
Borderline
Iron Head Jirachi can make some games RNG based, but its impact in the game is more positive than negative overall.
Iron Head Jirachi can make some games RNG based, but its impact in the game is more positive than negative overall.
Problematic, tiering action
Please refer to my earlier posts in the forums
Please refer to my earlier posts in the forums
Problematic, tiering action
Iron head + Body Slam is pure cancer and uncompetitive. As simple as that.
Iron head + Body Slam is pure cancer and uncompetitive. As simple as that.
Despite many finding Jirachi to be problematic in some capacity (>50% of survey respondents), there is a supermajority that does not feel that tiering action taking place most closely aligned with them compared to other options in the survey. While many had reasonable arguments for banning Jirachi (Serene Grace shenanigans not limited to Iron Head, Body Slam, Fire Punch, and Ice Punch), others also had reasonable arguments for not wanting Jirachi to be banned (not broken, provides a fundamental balance by aiding teambuilding and checking many Pokemon defensively, fast defensive Steel, concern of the unknown consequences of radically shaking the tier up).
Based on Jirachi's top 3 usage in the tier, overall enjoyment of DPP being high on average (8/10), and overall lack of direct support for tiering action based on this survey, there is not much to be done right now. These results warrant some concern, but they are improved from last year's results, Jirachi is considered by more and more people to not be the #1 Pokemon in the tier, and it's less centralizing on the metagame due to deeper exploration into heavy offense/defense as well as further tier optimization. We are not necessarily seeing Jirachi strategies be more optimized to maximize metagame degeneracy; we are seeing less of that overall according to SPL usage statistics over the past few years.
Overall, the council will keep a close eye on Jirachi and the metagame's developments as time goes on. We know that Jirachi is widely controversial; and with more support from SPL and qualified players, we would gladly take additional steps to address the controversy. But because Jirachi is so widely used in the tier, direct support for tiering action was lacking, and DPP enjoyment is overall high, we will sit on our hands for now.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
While Jirachi could be oftentimes annoying with iron head it serves my teams as a glue in most occasions and it is quite versatile in regards of the role it takes in games. - egalvanc
I feel like people have adapted to Jirachi and I don't find it that hard to deal with in the builder. It's usage is at an all time low and its contentious if it's even the #1 Pokemon in the meta-game. Every generation has dumb elements and I don't think "Jirachi moments" happen as much as people think. - Kristyl
jirachi kinda op but with latias, clefable and breloom being around there is NO WAY something can be done about it unless you wanna purge all the brokens - Emeral
jirachi kinda op but with latias, clefable and breloom being around there is NO WAY something can be done about it unless you wanna purge all the brokens - Emeral
Jirachi hold the tier together and is a huge defensive boon. I honestly think that Jirachi for the most part is fine and not hard to handle but for some Offense/Balance teams Para-IHead-Jira is hard to overcome. Basically only para-Rachi feels really borderline because all the other variants tend to have huge drawbacks whereas even in bad mus para-rachi can provide at the very least strong support or hax through counters. - Conflict
Perfect speed, immune to toxic and sandstorm, rocks resist, a lot of sets and different moves, and each set wins the counter of the other one, iron head + paralysis make the tier absolutely uncompetitive, the other mons that can do similar things are not even close, all have their weaknesses, Jirachi doesn't. - Malekith
Next, we asked people about some other Pokemon in the tier: "Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Clefable in DPP OU?"
- 31.3% of people consider Clefable to be balanced
- 34.4% of people consider Clefable to be borderline
- 34.4% of people consider Clefable to be problematic
- 75% of people think that no tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Balanced (although if I were to do it over again I'd probably say Borderline)
Clefable is easy to overwhelm, lets a lot of offensive threats set up, and has a bad 4mss between Thunder Wave, Encore, Wish, etc. It's a great pkmn that lets us provide a hazard immune defensive piece, which is welcomed and appreciated given how overbearing Spikes are. I just can't see Clefable as being a main offender if it's felt to be oppressive due to its low base stats and passivity. Knock Off is really annoying but it doesn't push it close enough to being problematic.
Clefable is easy to overwhelm, lets a lot of offensive threats set up, and has a bad 4mss between Thunder Wave, Encore, Wish, etc. It's a great pkmn that lets us provide a hazard immune defensive piece, which is welcomed and appreciated given how overbearing Spikes are. I just can't see Clefable as being a main offender if it's felt to be oppressive due to its low base stats and passivity. Knock Off is really annoying but it doesn't push it close enough to being problematic.
Borderline
Clefable isn’t in the same boat as it was years ago where no one knew how to play against it or account for it. It’s still very good but I don’t find it restrictive
Clefable isn’t in the same boat as it was years ago where no one knew how to play against it or account for it. It’s still very good but I don’t find it restrictive
Problematic, tiering action
Absolutely broken mon that restricts way too much the teambuilding in DPP
Absolutely broken mon that restricts way too much the teambuilding in DPP
Borderline
I think Clefable is the closest thing to be "broken" in DPP because Magic Guard and how easily it can wall a lot of things. I would still not ban it though.
I think Clefable is the closest thing to be "broken" in DPP because Magic Guard and how easily it can wall a lot of things. I would still not ban it though.
Balanced
I don't think Clefable is a problem. I personally feel that the tier has plenty of tools to deal with Clefable, but what happens is that in trying to make your team Clefable-proof, you become weaker to other threats (like Jirachi). And so it becomes a "pick your poison" type of situation.
I don't think Clefable is a problem. I personally feel that the tier has plenty of tools to deal with Clefable, but what happens is that in trying to make your team Clefable-proof, you become weaker to other threats (like Jirachi). And so it becomes a "pick your poison" type of situation.
Problematic, tiering action
Clefable invalidates a lot of teams/mons, and makes teambuilding very restrictive. Magic Guard is absurd, incredible movepoll, knock off is unhealthy.
Clefable invalidates a lot of teams/mons, and makes teambuilding very restrictive. Magic Guard is absurd, incredible movepoll, knock off is unhealthy.
These results are the most unfavorable for Clefable we have seen in our past 3 survey iterations. More people are viewing Clefable as problematic and not balanced than before; however, 75% of people did not feel most closely aligned to tiering action. While some view Clefable as too invalidating for many special attackers, others view it as being on a thinner thread against the special attackers. It's undeniable that special attackers often have to make uncomfortable concessions to account for Clefable. That said, Clefable is not the only DPP behemoth who is heavily restrictive on special attackers (*cough* Tyranitar Latias Jirachi *cough*). We clearly need to keep an eye on Clefable, as more of the playerbase is dissatisfied with it than ever before, but we will see if this continues to be a trend or not.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
clef is balanced. centralising for defence, but offence and defence have plenty of tools to structure effective gameplans into various clefable structures. cm clef mirrors arent much fun but cm clef vs knock clef is interesting - Pideous
It's a super good mon to glue certain teams together, could get problematic in the long run though, as knock off puts on a timer on everything eventually, encore is broken and there are other moves that are getting explored that could be problematic. - Lazuli
knock off is stifling in a meta with so much residual, since the actual trick mechanics were discovered it has become even more annoying to deal with. it poses an enormous challenge to certain team structures and strategies that would otherwise be quite good and valuable for the meta (eg, rose special offences). dont think this warrants a ban, however, but might be worth looking into in the future - Janik
Magic Guard in dpp is ridiculous and I think clef restricts teambuilding fairly heavily as there is no reliable way of removing it. I think it can make stalls too good where im forced to take a knock off, or intro trading something else that would normally be reliable stall breaker. I believe the removal of clef would not make other threats overbearing and would be a positive to dpp ou. - Mishimono
"Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Latias in DPP OU?"
- 53.1% of people think Latias is balanced
- 6.3% of people think tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Borderline
Latias is not exactly balanced bc the defensive set, role compression, and raw power from draco meteor + covg is extremely centralizing and fills too much at once. While it's a centralizing force with difficult sets to overcome (strains teambuilding quite a bit), it has some positive attributes of helping us build with its role compression, great scarfer set which is healthy, nice versatility, and healing wish to allow for more creativity in offenses.
Latias is not exactly balanced bc the defensive set, role compression, and raw power from draco meteor + covg is extremely centralizing and fills too much at once. While it's a centralizing force with difficult sets to overcome (strains teambuilding quite a bit), it has some positive attributes of helping us build with its role compression, great scarfer set which is healthy, nice versatility, and healing wish to allow for more creativity in offenses.
Borderline
Feels a lot like Clefable to me in terms of people “learning” to play around the defensive sets. I think the offensive sets are healthy for role compression and can run a lot of different options (scarf, specs, belt, cm). The defensive twave sets can be annoying to deal with (especially in tandem with Jirachi and Machamp) but I don’t think that it is worth axing it altogether as it would be more of a hit to offense than those other playstyles
Feels a lot like Clefable to me in terms of people “learning” to play around the defensive sets. I think the offensive sets are healthy for role compression and can run a lot of different options (scarf, specs, belt, cm). The defensive twave sets can be annoying to deal with (especially in tandem with Jirachi and Machamp) but I don’t think that it is worth axing it altogether as it would be more of a hit to offense than those other playstyles
Borderline
Very centralising but also very healthy for the game, balanced as long as Jirachi is in the tier
Very centralising but also very healthy for the game, balanced as long as Jirachi is in the tier
Balanced
Latias is great for the meta.
Latias is great for the meta.
Balanced
I feel like the modest specs lati lead set hits incredibly hard with draco meteor, but other than that, I don't think the other sets are problematic.
I feel like the modest specs lati lead set hits incredibly hard with draco meteor, but other than that, I don't think the other sets are problematic.
Borderline
The set reflect + thunder wave is borderline but Latias keeps the tier balanced with its defensive/offensive utility.
The set reflect + thunder wave is borderline but Latias keeps the tier balanced with its defensive/offensive utility.
Not much to say here, honestly. With Tyranitar, Clefable, and especially Jirachi in the tier, very few consider Latias to be anything more than Borderline. If Jirachi were to leave the tier, based on the responses in the survey, almost no one would find Latias to be balanced, but that is not the reality we're living in. No one on the council feels Latias is more than borderline and tiering action is far from the realm of being considered at this time.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
Lati is fine, reflect is mayeb broken but hax weak as f - Le Don
Don't have much to say. specs / scarf are clearly good for the tier, but its best set is the defensive one without a doubt, and I feel like this one might be borderline, but it's still doable, so we're good - SFG
i dont know if it should be suspected but it's too easy to shoe in a team and can adapt to w/e the team needs too easily - McMeghan
Latias is insanely resilient and makes defensive teams a lot harder to beat. A lot of games revolve around the interaction between Latias and Tyranitar to a point I don't find healthy - Jirachee
"Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Sleep in DPP OU?"
- 43.8% of people consider Sleep to be balanced
- 18.8% of people consider Sleep to be borderline
- 37.5% of people consider Sleep to be problematic
- 75% of people think that no tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Problematic, tiering action
Sleep puts a huge strain on the builder and encourages too much RNG in games. Burning sleep turns is uncompetitive, offense often has to uncomfortably tech with Lum Berry on some breakers like Gengar and Metagross mainly for Breloom, and the list goes on. Most of all, us needing sleep to "keep stall in check" is a myth considering sleep is the biggest gatekeeper to running some of the best breakers like strong ground types (swampert, rhyperior, flygon) as well as CBtar. It puts a huge strain on everything in an unhealthy way, both in builder and ingame. Revenge killers get punished too heavily by the threat of sleep from Breloom given its typing's key resistances to dark, ground, and electric, some of the most common types used on scarfers to revenge kill.
Breloom being able to break its best counter, Celebi, with a 4 turn sleep and chaining Focus Punch says it all. This Pokemon is too powerful given its access to 100% accurate sleep. Big strain in builder and ingame that we'd be better without.
Sleep puts a huge strain on the builder and encourages too much RNG in games. Burning sleep turns is uncompetitive, offense often has to uncomfortably tech with Lum Berry on some breakers like Gengar and Metagross mainly for Breloom, and the list goes on. Most of all, us needing sleep to "keep stall in check" is a myth considering sleep is the biggest gatekeeper to running some of the best breakers like strong ground types (swampert, rhyperior, flygon) as well as CBtar. It puts a huge strain on everything in an unhealthy way, both in builder and ingame. Revenge killers get punished too heavily by the threat of sleep from Breloom given its typing's key resistances to dark, ground, and electric, some of the most common types used on scarfers to revenge kill.
Breloom being able to break its best counter, Celebi, with a 4 turn sleep and chaining Focus Punch says it all. This Pokemon is too powerful given its access to 100% accurate sleep. Big strain in builder and ingame that we'd be better without.
Problematic, no tiering action
Sleep is a stupid mechanic and has the potential to ruin games before they start. I am between the two extreme options here. Offensive teams having to carry a sleep talk mon to reliably deal with Breloom (or run a lot of lum berries) can seem like a sunk cost fallacy. Banning sleep would not even be a real “buff” to defensive teams, as any good pilot should have a plan for dealing with sleep on slower paced teams
Sleep is a stupid mechanic and has the potential to ruin games before they start. I am between the two extreme options here. Offensive teams having to carry a sleep talk mon to reliably deal with Breloom (or run a lot of lum berries) can seem like a sunk cost fallacy. Banning sleep would not even be a real “buff” to defensive teams, as any good pilot should have a plan for dealing with sleep on slower paced teams
Problematic, tiering action
I'm still unsure about the future consequences of a sleep (spore) ban but it is definitely cancer and restrictive
I'm still unsure about the future consequences of a sleep (spore) ban but it is definitely cancer and restrictive
Balanced
Sleep as a core mechanic would need a VERY good reason for a ban. I don't think that is the case in DPP.
Sleep as a core mechanic would need a VERY good reason for a ban. I don't think that is the case in DPP.
Problematic, tiering action
Sleep causing a pokemon to be incapacitated is such a huge problem. The tier also lacks options to properly deal with sleep.
Sleep causing a pokemon to be incapacitated is such a huge problem. The tier also lacks options to properly deal with sleep.
Borderline
Sleep can be cancer but we have some good options such as restalk/lum etc. We would lose a lot of good breloom bo if sleep was banned. Moreover, this is a really good tool vs clefable teams which I like here
Sleep can be cancer but we have some good options such as restalk/lum etc. We would lose a lot of good breloom bo if sleep was banned. Moreover, this is a really good tool vs clefable teams which I like here
Sleep being a necessary tool for stall/defensive teams is seen as a myth by at least half the council. Defensive teams have more consistent flowcharting against sleep and Breloom heavily restricts several key stallbreakers (CBtar the most significant one, who can trap/remove clefable consistently). That said, not even close to enough people view sleep as an issue or feel closely aligned with taking tiering action. While many feel sleep is a "dumb" mechanic or something of that sort, others find Breloom's current presence to be a valuable and healthy tool. Several of those who complained about sleep in the survey also didn't necessarily support tiering action. Others also mentioned sleep being unhealthy in combination with trappers (Tyranitar, Magne(ton/zone)). We will continue to keep our eye on sleep, but there's nothing to be done at the moment.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
Sleep is a good thing - Breloom needs to stay strong to keep passive playstyles honest - Triangles
It's clearly a dumb mechanic, but Breloom overall does more good - BKC
Sleep is always problematic in almost any tier, IMO, but I don't think it's something I would ban or suspect test in the future. I think it's okay and manageable. - Sheik :
Sleep is broken and can make a easily winnable game just losable by getting slept and the rng of turns makes it even harder. - Ara
"Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Machamp in DPP OU?"
- 25% of people consider Machamp to be balanced
- 31.3% of people consider Machamp to be borderline
- 43.8% of people consider Machamp to be problematic
- 34.4% of people think that tiering action should take place
Council member responses:
Problematic, tiering action
Machamp is not broken; however, it is uncompetitive. While you can pivot around Jirachi's Iron Head and force it out/threaten it, pivoting around Dynamic Punch takes the game out of the player's hands and is extremely powerful. The only relevant ghost types to pivot into Machamp are Rotom and Gengar, which get owned by Payback. Substitute with paralysis in effect skews hax odds with 100% confusion from a 130 base atk 100 bp stab move way too much while making very quick progress with perfect coverage.
Ultimately, Machamp just doesn't provide much to the tier defensively or offensively in comparison to the strain it puts both in builder and ingame. We don't need Machamp to bust stall -- we have so many other healthier options for that. I think Machamp should be banned.
Machamp is not broken; however, it is uncompetitive. While you can pivot around Jirachi's Iron Head and force it out/threaten it, pivoting around Dynamic Punch takes the game out of the player's hands and is extremely powerful. The only relevant ghost types to pivot into Machamp are Rotom and Gengar, which get owned by Payback. Substitute with paralysis in effect skews hax odds with 100% confusion from a 130 base atk 100 bp stab move way too much while making very quick progress with perfect coverage.
Ultimately, Machamp just doesn't provide much to the tier defensively or offensively in comparison to the strain it puts both in builder and ingame. We don't need Machamp to bust stall -- we have so many other healthier options for that. I think Machamp should be banned.
Balanced
Slow teams get abused by Machamp, that is the lay of the land. Offensive teams that let their opposition get their feet under the ground and get twaved should get abused by Machamp. I don’t see anything wrong with those. Substitute + Twave strats always have the potential to steal wins, Machamp is just a good abuser
Slow teams get abused by Machamp, that is the lay of the land. Offensive teams that let their opposition get their feet under the ground and get twaved should get abused by Machamp. I don’t see anything wrong with those. Substitute + Twave strats always have the potential to steal wins, Machamp is just a good abuser
Problematic, no tiering action
Dynamicpunch is cancer, no action should be taken as long as Clef is in the tier
Dynamicpunch is cancer, no action should be taken as long as Clef is in the tier
Borderline
RNG, but I don't think its good enough to deseve any tiering action.
RNG, but I don't think its good enough to deseve any tiering action.
Problematic, tiering action
Although Dynamic Punch is the main culprit, as per tiering policy, Machamp is what should be banned. Dynamic Punch enables players to rob games from others.
Although Dynamic Punch is the main culprit, as per tiering policy, Machamp is what should be banned. Dynamic Punch enables players to rob games from others.
Borderline
The loss of a good DD Ttar check + tool vs clefable team is a shame. Moreover, Machamp has a lot of flaws, so for all these reasons I don't think it's worth to ban it.
The loss of a good DD Ttar check + tool vs clefable team is a shame. Moreover, Machamp has a lot of flaws, so for all these reasons I don't think it's worth to ban it.
This is the first time we've surveyed Machamp. Out of everything in the survey, Machamp had the most responses that most closely aligned with wanting tiering action. Although it wasn't viewed quite as problematic as Jirachi overall, that fact is still worth noting. In all aspects of no tiering action results, people mentioned things like, "Dynamic Punch should be banned", "No Guard should be banned", etc, and the consensus seems to be that people don't think Machamp provides much value in the tier but that it isn't broken, or that they don't want to ban Machamp but Dynamic Punch/No Guard should be banned, which we can't do according to tiering policy. Whether that leads one to want to ban it or not depends on the respondent. We found overall that there are not many who are passionate about Machamp's place in the tier, and found that others are passionate about wanting it gone.
The survey results suggest that Machamp is not broken and technically, there is a supermajority that doesn't feel most closely aligned with tiering action; however, unlike Jirachi, Machamp has very low usage (only 5 times used this past SPL), and looking more closely at the survey responses, there's a key difference. Jirachi is polarizing; people either want it gone desperately, don't want it gone at all, or feel that they'd rather keep it. Machamp doesn't have the same types of responses. It's hard to get a true read on how the playerbase feels from the Machamp responses because there were very few positive attributes noted about it that contribute value to the metagame. I would say at the moment that Machamp doesn't have grounds for tiering action, but further, public discussion about the Pokemon should occur, as it has never been focused on before unlike other tier elements and it had concerning results in the survey. As an example, Machamp's results were overall worse than Clefable's across the board. More people think it's problematic, fewer people think it's balanced, and more people would like to see tiering action on it.
The DPP council has unanimously agreed that public discussion on Machamp should/can occur; however, the DPP council has not agreed unanimously that any action should occur on Machamp. Stay tuned for more information in the future.
Standout quotes from others with each different perspective:
Machamp is not even close to being as good as any of the other mons in this survey and mostly just feels like a cheese prayer for some selfhits. Don't rly care about this one either way tho since he doesnt contribute anything rly to the meta other than adding more variance factors to the game. - mind gaming
Machamp is definitely annoying, but its always been like this. I don't really think its any worse than it was before, and I don't think its rly worth taking action on. I will say though that if we had to take action on something in this survey, it would be champ. - Cubic Skunk
DynamicPunch should be banned. I would be "fine" banning Machamp but I would rather just get rid of DP which is dumb on all mons, even with the accuracy. - twash
This pokemon has a limited range of positive attributes, namely checking Tyranitar and threatening special sponges. It does not bring a healthy offensive pressure and cannot afford to switch into much, making its ban not too harmful. While not too strong, Machamp should be suspected under the uncompetitive argument. - oiponabys
After we finished asking about all these Pokemon and sleep, we asked a few more questions to wrap up the survey.
"What, if anything, would you do to improve DPP OU?"
We had a varied mix of banning Jirachi, Clefable, Machamp, Sleep, doing nothing, etc. Nothing really noteworthy came from this section.
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That's pretty much it! If anyone is interested in hearing additional information that was in the survey, feel free to post about it here. I encourage all those who filled out the survey as well as anyone reading to post your thoughts on everything here. Thank you for reading, and a special thank you to everyone on the DPP council for contributing to this post as well as the discussions we had about the results.
