Co-written with Zayele - Click the art for the song!
Building in DPP Ubers has long been constrained by the presence of entry hazards, and the importance of the hazard game led to the current centralization of the lead metagame around a small cluster of suicide leads, their anti-leads, and only a few specific hazard leads with longevity. Offensive teams with a suicide lead typically follow a relatively inflexible structure, namely a spinblocker in Giratina-O, a weather setter, a Dialga variant, and some offensive presence in a pair of wincons or breakers. Almost all of these teams use lead Spikes and a midgame SR setter; as antileads are typically specialized to deny multiple layers of entry hazards, having two setters allows for the coveted combination of SR + a Spikes layer that gives offense crucial momentum. The reverse paradigm is not seen much on offensive builds, as the two mid-game Spikers (Skarmory and Forretress) are hard to fit and are generally relegated to balance and stall teams.
The rise of these teams can generally be attributed as a counterstyle to the Toxic Spikes stalls that were omnipresent in the tier in the past. Palkia is an example of a big metagame presence that has generally lost its appeal in teambuilding in the recent past - with the emphasis on entry hazards, it is hard to justify using a grounded Kyogre check that lacks reliable recovery. Hazard stalls have also had to adapt themselves; for example, Tentacruel has been falling out of favor owing to generally increased preparation for lead Toxic Spikes. Certain absorbers like Qwilfish are also gaining some popularity, which leave Tentacruel dead weight in a number of matchups.
It’s important to note that in spite of all this, there is still considerable usage of grounded pokemon that are susceptible to all hazards. All weather setters suffer from this, as well as popular picks like Garchomp and Kabutops; some prototypical teams showcasing standard structures with these choices can be seen here:
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Ubers Live II Semifinals
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Ubers Live II Finals
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Most Wanted II, Week 1
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Most Wanted II, Week 1
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Most Wanted II, Week 2
The main idea that led to this build was the strength of mid-game spikes in DPP Ubers. While Skarmory is usually considered the better of the two premier mid-game Spikers for its longevity and its ability to properly check threats, we figured that Forretress’ tendency to bait spinblockers was abusable and a great opportunity to click Spikes. If you get your Forry in against a rain team’s support Dialga, their play is most likely to go to a non-HP Fire Giratina to prevent you from spinning away entry hazards; this is a great moment to set your own Spikes. This could be abused even more if said Giratina was paralyzed, something SpDef Groudon tends to achieve rather well, while also being a great mon and giving a nice direction to the team early on by picking the weather.
At this point, the team already showed signs of requiring some form of speed control. However, with Groudon already being vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, we decided to opt for a Choice Scarf user that wouldn't be weak to them as well, or the remaining slots would be too focused on dealing with Toxic Spikes + whatever effectively checked this scarfer. Dialga offered this while also being really threatening to switch into with 1 Spike + Rocks, as the traditional switch-ins with entry hazards up would most likely offer us new occasions to Spike with Forry.
With both the rocks and Spikes slot fulfilled already, we had much greater freedom in choosing a lead. The team was still rather slow, and despite Dialga being a potential Sleep Talk user to deal with Darkrais in mid-game, having it slept by lead Darkrai was a much bigger issue. Therefore, using a Lum lead seemed to be the obvious choice. Rayquaza in particular greatly appealed to us here, as it would ensure minimal hazards against the most common leads, keeping in mind that Forretress might not find opportunities to spin. Bluffing a Focus Sash, the most common item on lead Rayquaza, also helps greatly in other lead matchups. It is effective against offenses that lead with Sash Tyranitar, as full hp Lead Rayquaza is extremely scary because of the potential Sash; Non-Scarf Deo-S/Deo-A only sets one layer and then "breaks your sash" with Extreme Speed. Lastly, due to the threat of Sash Rayquaza against offense, lead Darkrai almost always stays in to Dark Void initially, and is subsequently KOed by Draco Meteor. The team is also fine with letting Tentacruel set Toxic Spikes, and in some cases you will even see lead Kyogre switch out in fear of a potential Focus Sash.
From here, the team needed an actual rain check - Scarf Dialga not being enough. As usual, our gameplan involves a lot of switching, and Latias seemed like the perfect choice. It compressed being a rain check and being the proper win condition the team lacked so far, while also helping with pivoting with hazards up.
At this point, the team, despite relying a lot on hazards, had no spinblocker. However, it felt like the recent usage of Forretress has been fairly low, and Kabutops, while being more common, doesn’t perform this role as well as Forry does. A sun check that would prevent opposing Forretress from spinning for free was appreciated, and Heatran appeared to fit that well, while also helping with Latis and miscellaneous specially offensive dragons. Its weakness to Spikes would be somewhat alleviated by Forretress potentially being able to remove them, and Latias’ ability to freely switch in regardless of their presence. Most of its switchins (Kyogre, Groudon, Blissey, etc. ) are grounded, and so it would help capitalize on Forretress’ entry hazard support, especially with its ability to phaze these threats on the switch.
Rayquaza @ Lum Berry
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast / Rock Slide
- Extreme Speed
Lead Rayquaza is chosen for its ability to deny multiple entry hazards from most leads, especially Deoxys-S. The moveset is relatively standard; Draco Meteor + Extreme Speed limits opposing leads to a single layer of entry hazards, Earthquake handles Tentacruel and Tyranitar, and Fire Blast completes coverage by hitting Steel-types. As Ho-Oh with 3 attacks is a major nuisance (albeit a rare one) to the team, Rock Slide can be used over Fire Blast to trivialize that matchup; Forretress will usually not stay in on Rayquaza anyway. Of particular note is the Lum Berry, which is an excellent lure for lead Darkrai, as most lead Rayquaza carry Focus Sash. Eliminating Darkrai turn 1 is generally a great position to start the match in.
As our Rayquaza is Lum we opted to use maximum Speed investment on it to tie at worst with other lead Rayquaza, many of which only creep maximum speed base 90s or use a +SpA nature. A Hasty nature is chosen over Naive to take less damage from miscellaneous special attacks such as Dark Pulse and Choiced Surf. Additionally, lead Froslass’ Icy Wind will never KO.
Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Explosion
Forretress is the centerpiece that we’d wanted to build around from the start, due to its ability to Spike consistently in the mid-game. Besides Spikes and Rapid Spin, whose importance is clear, Toxic Spikes help against some threats to the team like offensive Groudon and Darkrai. The choice between casting Spikes and Toxic Spikes can be gauged by scouting the opponents’ team, and will be made clear as the game progresses.
As mentioned earlier, we opt to not use Payback as this Forretress doesn’t need to break through Giratina-O directly. Instead, Explosion gives Forretress additional defensive utility; exploding on dragons locked into Outrage makes matchups like DD Rayquaza winnable, albeit still somewhat difficult. It can also be used against some other boosting sweepers that can’t immediately KO it like Calm Mind Latias. A standard specially defensive spread is needed to take Thunder from support Dialga / Giratina-O better, alongside Leftovers recovery. 8 Speed EVs are used to creep opposing Forretress, which lets you explode on them in a desperate situation to prevent Rapid Spin.
Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Lava Plume
- Thunder Wave
Groudon serves as the team’s Stealth Rock and weather setter; it is also an essential component of the team’s defensive backbone and checks a number of threats. Stealth Rock is of course the most important single entry hazard, and Groudon can generally find ample opportunities to set it. Another key move here is Thunder Wave; paralysis is the best status in DPP and the move’s reliability makes it mandatory on any support Groudon. Catching a stray check such as Giratina-O or Latias with Thunder Wave on the switch is a key part of playing the team; paralyzing Giratina-O in particular is immensely helpful to Forretress. For this reason, a specially defensive spread is required to handle it, as well as some other miscellaneous special threats such as Dialga and Choice Scarf Palkia. Finally, besides Earthquake (whose importance as the main STAB doesn’t need to be stated), the choice of final coverage move is critical. As the team lacks a spinblocker, it is important that Forretress does not get free turns at all, and so Lava Plume fits perfectly. It has some other uses as well; it prevents Skarmory from setting entry hazards, and spreading burn dissuades opposing offensive Groudon from trying to set up. As speed is not relevant to support Groudon sets, a Sassy nature is used to not lower Lava Plume’s damage output. Leftovers is chosen over Lum Berry or another item owing to the need for longevity on this team; preserving Groudon is necessary in a lot of matchups (especially rain HO), and it is key to winning the weather war in general.
Dialga @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Sleep Talk
Scarf Dialga is the team’s main form of speed control, and checks many boosted setup sweepers. Draco Meteor is the main revenge killing tool, while Dragon Pulse is an alternative STAB option to KO a weakened threat or clean late-game. Fire Blast is a strong coverage option under sun, and also gives a means of immediately KOing Forretress. Finally, Sleep Talk allows this Dialga to check Darkrai, and makes it a decent sleep absorber in general. Both Draco Meteor and sun-boosted Fire Blast will OHKO Darkrai if selected, while Dragon Pulse still does very high damage (~70%). Always remember that Sleep Talk only works on the first use while Dialga is active.
A standard spread maximizing Special Attack and Speed is used; a Timid nature is chosen over Modest to better handle Life Orb Deoxys-A, which is otherwise quite threatening to the team. Outspeeding Modest Choice Scarf Kyogre is very helpful in putting less stress on Latias as well.
Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 132 HP / 184 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Grass Knot / Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Roost
Latias serves as the mandatory rain check; it is, in addition to hazards, your main counterplay against Kyogre, especially Choice-locked ones that are even more crippled by residual damage. It is only able to 2HKO Latias with Ice Beam from the Choice Specs set, which lets you react accordingly (as hazards will quickly get it in Grass Knot / Thunder range), or with the rare Modest Choice Scarf Ice Beam, which will need to be handled a little more carefully. Dragon Pulse is preferred to Draco Meteor as the STAB move of choice, as it has higher PP, while also not incurring Special Attack drops in late-game sweeping situations. Grass Knot serves as coverage for Groudon and Kyogre, while also being able to KO weakened Tyranitar. Alternatively, to solidify the rain matchup more, one can opt for Thunder; on top of allowing Latias to spread paralysis, this means that common Steel-types such as Bronzong and Jirachi do not wall you entirely. Importantly, Skarmory no longer Spikes for free against Latias. The primary issue with using Thunder is the reduced accuracy under the team’s main weather - this is why Grass Knot is generally preferred. Calm Mind allows Latias to serve as a great win condition, as it quickly gets nearly impossible to break on the special side, while being able to clean with boosted Dragon Pulses. Roost is a form of reliable recovery, and allows for CM wars with other bulky boosting sweepers like Lugia and Giratina. The EV spread hits 334 speed, outspeeding Jolly Garchomp. 132 HP EVs guarantee that Timid Scarf Kyogre will never 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock damage, and the remaining EVs are put in SpA to give a good combination of power and bulk. Soul Dew is the only viable item on Latias, and entirely outclasses every other item.
Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 240 HP / 248 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Toxic
- Roar
Heatran is the team’s answer to specially offensive Dragon-types, being able to wall most of them under sun, as well as some miscellaneous threats like SubRoost Ho-Oh. Its moveset in general is pretty flexible (especially as we’re using another SR setter), but we were interested in the benefits of Roar and Protect especially. These are good tools to maximize Leftovers recovery, and Protect also removes the annoying 50/50 that Scarf Garchomp would otherwise create upon gaining momentum against Heatran. It also stalls out a turn for Toxic Spikes damage, if they have been set already. Phazing out checks on Spikes racks up a lot of residual damage and prevents Heatran from being used as setup fodder in general. Toxic is useful for putting some switch-ins on a timer and allows it to actually beat Latias and Latios. Finally, Lava Plume is used as the obligatory STAB move of choice, and it is chosen over Flamethrower to aid in spreading status along with the rest of the team. The burns spread by Lava Plume also synergize with Protect to accumulate even more residual damage, and dissuade Groudon and Giratina-O from recklessly switching in. Full defensive investment is of course required to realize Heatran’s potential as a special wall; the speed EVs creep uninvested base 90s with a hindering nature, such as mixed support Groudon and Bulk Up Dialga. The speed investment is also useful for opposing Heatran, as they are phazed first by Roar.
Importable
Rayquaza
Midgame mixed Rayquaza are handled by Dialga or Latias, and Swords Dance sets lose to Dialga as well. The larger issue is Dragon Dance Rayquaza; Groudon can survive +1 Outrage if healthy enough and paralyze. Otherwise, one has to bait Outrage and explode with Forretress. Lum sets cannot be handled by Groudon, but are typically easier to force Outrage from due to their lower damage output.
Wobbuffet
With Wobbuffet support, opposing Rayquaza can set up for free, which is especially problematic if Groudon has been removed or been sufficiently weakened. Wobbuffet can also facilitate a sweep from certain other threats that are usually incapable of setting up against any member of the team; Swords Dance Kabutops is an example of such a sweeper. Safeguard variants can also set up these sweepers even if Toxic Spikes have been laid already.
Finally, Wobbuffet can trap and eliminate Heatran and Dialga, though opponents will usually scout Heatran for Taunt before trying to trap it (and will struggle if you were able to set Toxic Spikes already). This will enable sweeps for any number of offensive Dragon-types and Darkrai.
Giratina-Origin
Mixed Giratina-O can be problematic for the team depending on its moveset. Generally, the variants found on rain teams will not threaten Forretress; against opposing sun teams, however, one must take care in scouting for the combination of HP Fire and Earthquake. To play around these, it is best to lure with Groudon and paralyze, or to make good doubles with Dialga. Latias can check any Giratina-O besides the very rare physical Substitute sets; this should generally only be used as a last resort, though, since it will take considerable chip damage in the process and may struggle to handle Kyogre afterwards. Finally, one should capitalize on Scarf Dialga gaining free momentum from Giratina-O.
Garchomp
Scarf Garchomp outspeeds the entire team, and is only checked by Groudon and Forretress. Protecting with Heatran helps a lot in gaining momentum against this threat, and TSpikes make the matchup much easier as well - they are also the easiest way to handle SubSalac Garchomp. Other sets like Life Orb are nowhere near as threatening and are beaten by Latias and Dialga; even Haban Garchomp cannot survive Draco Meteor after SR + Spikes.
Heatran
Taunt + Roar Heatran is a nuisance, since nothing besides your own Heatran switches in safely. Switching Heatran in and doubling to Groudon is usually sufficient to handle this. Getting Spikes up helps greatly here, as Heatran has no recovery besides Leftovers and takes 25% from SR + 1 layer of Spikes on every switch-in.
Tyranitar
While lead Tyranitar is beaten by Rayquaza, support and Choice Band Tyranitar are somewhat more problematic. The support set is capable of Pursuit trapping Latias, which, as mentioned earlier, is essential to the team’s defensive backbone. Choice Band sets also need to be handled with some care, as it can win a 1v1 against most of the team given the right move selection. Thankfully, Tyranitar is susceptible to Toxic Spikes, and is slow with limited recovery - for example, it will be essentially unusable after trading with Rayquaza. Choice Scarf Ttar should be handled directly with Groudon.
Forretress
This can be problematic to face, as the team has no spinblocker and relies on entry hazards. It will need to be handled with offensive pressure from Groudon and Heatran; try to not give it free turns, e.g. locking Dialga into a dragon move after it’s been scouted.
Ho-Oh
Ho-Oh walls most of the team, and it can be hard to keep Stealth Rock up against a Ho-Oh team. In this matchup one should play aggressively with Groudon / Dialga / Heatran, as these heavily threaten opposing Forretress. Also keep in mind that the usual midgame Ho-Oh set (SubRoost) is walled by Heatran. The rare 3 attacks mid-game set is very difficult for the team to handle without Stealth Rock up.
Gliscor
While rare, Gliscor is very annoying for this team, as it walls Groudon, OHKOs Heatran, and Toxics Latias. Lum Rayquaza is the best answer to it, and sets that lack Taunt or Swords Dance are setup fodder for Forretress - keep in mind that Stealth Rock sets typically don’t run either of these.
Mewtwo
The team’s entry hazard support allows it to handle most variants of Mewtwo without issue, and it cannot OHKO Latias without Self-Destruct. Defensive sets with Taunt can be problematic, though, and will usually require Toxic Spikes support and good play with Heatran to beat.
Blissey
While Blissey is not too difficult to handle most of the time, as hazards will often force it to use Soft-Boiled, and Heatran can easily Roar it away, it should be noted that the team can struggle to beat it when it’s the last mon. This is especially problematic if it takes a single layer of Toxic Spikes, as it can survive for a while. Against Blissey teams, it is important to set both layers of Toxic Spikes, or, if this is not possible, avoid laying them entirely so Heatran can simply Toxic it. Luckily, by its nature, Blissey is usually revealed very early, at a stage where you can avoid setting Toxic Spikes if necessary.
Deoxys-Speed
The usual sequence here is Draco Meteor into Extreme Speed. If lead Deo-S carries Choice Scarf and Tricks turn 1, it can be good to double to Groudon, since it will be easy to gain momentum against a -2 Rayquaza locked into Draco Meteor. In the rare cases where it doesn’t Extreme Speed as well turn 2, most teams will be forced to play carefully around a potential sash on your Rayquaza, especially if it used Spikes and not Rocks; it is great to use this to your advantage.
Tyranitar
Typically one can 2HKO opposing Tyranitar with Earthquake as it will usually set rocks turn 1. It’s recommended that you calculate for max HP, since your opponent might try to preserve bulky Lum leads. In that case you can Draco Meteor on turn 2 and hopefully catch a switchin. On a similar note as Deoxys-Speed, your opponent will need to play around Focus Sash Rayquaza, though that is harder to abuse as Tyranitar set Rocks turn 1.
Darkrai
This is one of the best lead matchups for this team; Draco Meteor turn 1 gets a kill for free and eliminates a dangerous threat to the team. Keep in mind that it will often subsequently draw in the opponent’s Choice Scarf user.
Rayquaza
Opposing lead Rayquaza pose a difficult matchup, as with Focus Sash they always keep momentum. Should they win a speed tie turn 1, it will be hard to overcome the early lead as you effectively play 5v6 while they have an intact Focus Sash. Note that Rayquaza is given maximum speed, while many other lead Rayquaza opt to creep for positive natured base 90s (308).
Kyogre
This is a difficult matchup, as they can simply KO you with Ice Beam. You are forced to Draco Meteor turn 1; this puts Kyogre in KO range of Latias or Dialga. It is not ideal to hard Latias turn one as Kyogre will cripple it with Thunder Wave.
Ho-Oh
Ho-Oh will actually lose to Rayquaza if it Brave Birds turn 1. The standard 144 HP lead will be put in range of Extreme Speed after Draco Meteor and Brave Bird recoil damage. The matchup becomes much more problematic if it Sacred Fires turn 1. In that case, you will have to switch Dialga in and hope it attacks again, as it is difficult to break through Ho-Oh otherwise. If using the Rock Slide variant, clicking it beats every option Ho-Oh has.
Froslass
Froslass is the hardest lead matchup for Rayquaza, and you will often be unable to preserve it for later in the game. You can Draco Meteor turn 1 to break Sash, and if they Spiked, attack again, or go Heatran if they used Icy Wind. Otherwise, it will be important to spin with Forretress later in the game.
Deoxys-Attack
Most Deoxys-A sets are walled by Forretress, so you are free to hard Forretress into lead Deo-A. If you’re very wary of a fire move you can stay in with Rayquaza and espeed. It’s important to set hazards first with Forretress and not waste turns trying to spin.
Tentacruel
Always Earthquake turn 1; Ice Beam Tentacruel is very rare and clicking it against a Sash Rayquaza would prevent them from setting Toxic Spikes anyway.
Building this wouldn’t have been possible without the support of a lot of friends willing to play and test such an old tier; huge shoutouts to
Tomahawk for getting me into DPP Ubers during UPL! It quickly became one of my favorite tiers, despite me being hardly aware of what it looked like one week before semi-finals. Hopefully we get to play again in some cool tournaments!!
Highlord for always being willing to play friendlies with me (Zayele), chat about my silly ideas, and having great insight into building in general. Hope you are able to be more active soon!
steelskitty,
SparksBlade,
dream, and many others - finding people to play DPP with always takes a while, and it wouldn’t be possible to enjoy the tier without all of you - looking forward to seeing you in DPP cup and UPL!
Hope you enjoy using the team, and let us know if you have any suggestions!
