Espeon [4F]

Heysup

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UPL Champion
196espeon.png

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/espeon
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I basically rewrote the whole thing, due to the other one being.....well....lets just say it has Fake Tears on the sweeper set....
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[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Psychic
move 2: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground
move 3: Baton Pass / Signal Beam
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Espeon has great Speed and Special Attack, so it is no surprise it can use a Choice Specs set effectively. Psychic is Espeon's main STAB attack, which deals major damage to anything that does not resist it, or is not named Chansey. Hidden Power is used to hit the ever common Registeel and Steelix switch-ins and eventually take its main counter out of the match. Baton Pass is a great move to use to scout your opponent's switch-ins and allow you to switch to one of your counters. Baton Pass also enables Espeon to escape from common Pursuit users such as Honchkrow and Absol. Trick allows Espeon to cripple its most common switch-ins, such as Chansey or Registeel, allowing another special attacker to sweep more freely.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Fire is the main option on this set to give Espeon very respectable neutral type-coverage without risking Honchkrow freely switching into your attacks. This is especially important on a Choice item user, because you cannot switch your attack to a super effective coverage move when your opponent switches in, so it's better to do reliable damage. With Hidden Power Fire, you often have a better shot at doing damage to your opponent than you would with any other Hidden Power type, and coming off of a Choice Specs boosted 130 base Special Attack stat, it will definitely leave a mark on most opponents.</p>

<p>However, Hidden Power Ground is a very good alternative for many reasons. First, Hidden Power Ground hits Drapion, who can otherwise switch into Psychic and set up Swords Dance or use Pursuit to KO Espeon. Second, Hidden Power Ground does not lower your Speed IV like Hidden Power Fire does, which is important when making your EV spread. However, if you opt for Baton Pass over Signal Beam, you are completely walled by Honchkrow and Claydol, so keep that in mind.</p>

<p>Signal Beam can be used over Baton Pass for superior type coverage if you are not a fan of the dry Baton Passing technique for scouting. Shadow Ball can also be used with Hidden Power Fighting, as Ghost and Fighting-type attacks grant perfect coverage. Shadow Ball can be useful to revenge kill Ghost-types such as Mismagius. This slot is really based on how effective you think dry Baton Pass scouting is and if it is more important than coverage, as both options have their perks. If you use either Shadow Ball or Signal Beam, you should maximize Espeon's Speed EVs so that you can beat other Espeon, otherwise the 40 HP helps Espeon take the odd hit much better.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf can be used on this Espeon as well, letting it outspeed almost every other Pokemon, even those that carry a Choice Scarf of their own. This makes Espeon a great revenge killer, working off of its base 130 Special Attack stat. A Modest nature is recommended with a Choice Scarf, as Espeon benefits more from the Special Attack boost than it would benefit from boosting its already blazing Speed. If you opt for Choice Scarf, Espeon's Speed EVs can be lowered to 204, which gives Espeon a Speed of 460 with a Modest nature and a Choice Scarf. This allows Espeon to outspeed Timid Choice Scarf Roserade and other base 90 Choice Scarf users. The rest of the EVs can be thrown into HP, to give Espeon a little more bulk. Make sure to give Espeon 4 extra Speed EVs if you are using Hidden Power Fire though.</p>

<p>Choice Espeon is one of the best special wall lures because of its great base 130 Special Attack. With Registeel and Chansey crippled to the point of uselessness after being Tricked a Choice item, many other special sweepers can shine. Pokemon such as Calm Mind Mismagius and Yanmega appreciate the removal of a team's special wall, allowing them to likely pull off a successful sweep. Drapion is another common switch-in to Espeon and may be taken out with a Hidden Power Ground, which helps the previously mentioned Mismagius as well. Another method of removing these special walls is to use Baton Pass on the predicted special wall switch to switch to a heavy hitter, such as Rhydon or Magmortar. Spiritomb can be annoying for this set, not minding Choice Specs too much and boasting great Special Defense, but it can be easily overcome by a strong wall breaker, ideally one that is immune to Will-O-Wisp and does not take much from Spiritomb's attacks. Blaziken comes to mind, resisting Dark Pulse as well as being immune to Will-O-Wisp.</p>

<p>A Choice item on Espeon has its disadvantages as well, as it does for all Pokemon. Espeon, however, has a bigger problem because of common Dark-types being immune to Psychic while taking little from Espeon's coverage attacks. Hidden Power Fire variants of Espeon cannot touch Houndoom, so a Pokemon like Milotic will come in handy to keep it at bay, so that it doesn't get a free Nasty Plot. Espeon's other coverage moves, Hidden Power Fighting and Hidden Power Ground, also have Pokemon they do not touch, such as Ghost-types and Flying-types, respectively. Levitating Ghosts, such as Mismagius, are even immune to both. Having Pokemon that can take Dark and Ghost-type attacks are greatly beneficial. Registeel and Steelix come to mind, resisting both types as well as Bug, which Espeon is weak to as well. Fighting-types resist Dark-type attacks from Pokemon such as Spiritomb, who tend to get in the way of Espeon as well.</p>

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Espeon's great Special Attack, Speed, and decent Special Defense, Espeon makes a great Calm Mind passer. Substitute protects Espeon from status and critical hits, while Calm Mind helps to ensure those Substitutes remain intact.</p>

<p>With Baton Pass, Espeon becomes much like its old Advance self, which is referred to as "EspyJump". Baton Pass is a great attack because with Espeon's high Speed, it can use a couple of Calm Minds and pass them to a Pokemon with better coverage at its disposal, such as Moltres, Yanmega. The strategy with EspyJump is to send Espeon on something it can set up against or forces out and use Substitute. If your opponent sends out a wall such as Registeel, you can easily Baton Pass the Substitute to one of your hard hitters, who will likely have its Substitute still up because of the pitiful damage a resisted Iron Head does. If your opponent eventually runs out of Espeon counters, you can use Calm Mind and attempt to sweep with Psychic instead of Baton Passing the boosts.</p>

<p>The EVs given help Espeon set up as many Calm Minds as possible, hopefully making an unbreakable Substitute against a special attacker. The Speed EVs are given to outpace Mismagius and Scyther, along with most of the metagame.</p>

<p>Espeon can't do its job when Pokemon like Ambipom and Drapion are around to Taunt or KO Espeon. Ambipom is quite difficult to get rid of, but carrying a strong Rock-type Choice Band user such as Rhydon or Relicanth can take advantage of Ambipom's presence to give you a bit of an edge. Drapion is a little easier to lure and KO with Pokemon like Choice Specs Mismagius. If Mismagius either Tricks Drapion Choice Specs or even nails it with Hidden Power Ground, Drapion will be rendered useless as a counter.</p>

<p>Defensively, taking hits from Chansey and Registeel are fairly easy, so any sort of Pokemon with high attack that can take an Iron Head or Seismic Toss well works great with Espeon. This especially applies to Pokemon who appreciate Substitutes, such as Magmortar or Charizard (who use Focus Punch). Hariyama appreciates the Substitute as well and can use a deadly STAB Focus Punch in conjunction with its own Substitute.</p>

<p>With a couple of Calm Minds under its belt, Espeon can then Baton Pass the boosts to a teammate and set up a sweep. Moltres is the perfect special Agility sweeper to pass to, with sky high Special Attack and impressive defenses to take attacks aimed at Espeon. An Agility Blaziken greatly appreciates any Calm Minds passed to it as well, and it can also deal with Chansey unlike Moltres. With Blaziken's resistance to Bug and Dark-type attacks that will be aimed at Espeon, it is often easier to pass to it Moltres is generally a safer option, though, thanks to its higher defenses.</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
move 4: Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A great way to remedy poor two-move coverage is by using three attacks. Calm Mind boosts Espeon's already sky high Special Attack stat; you can even get more boosts than usual when setting up on a weak special attacker. Psychic provides STAB damage, and the rest of the moves provide decent coverage. Hidden Power Ground hits Steel-types and Drapion for super effective damage, which are very important targets as they both commonly switch into Espeon expecting a Choiced Psychic. Signal Beam hits Psychic types such as Slowbro, Claydol, and fellow Espeon for super effective damage. It also hits Honchkrow for neutral damage, who would otherwise wall this set. You should keep Espeon hidden from your opponent until it needs to sweep so that your opponent's team will hopefully be weakened enough for Espeon to exploit.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Fighting and Shadow Ball can be used because Shadow Ball hits Ghost-types for super effective damage while also hitting other Psychic-types harder than Signal Beam. Hidden Power Fighting covers the lost Honchkrow coverage that Signal Beam had.</p>

<p>Substitute is a very good option if you opt for Leftovers as well because it can block status, scout, or simply try to draw a miss or full paralysis. If you opt for Leftovers and Substitute, it is a good idea to take 4 EVs out of SpD and SpA, and add them into HP. With 8 HP EVs, Espeon reaches a Substitute number and then an additional point so that it can create five Substitutes providing it doesn't take any damage.</p>

<p>This Espeon benefits from residual damage the most out of any set due to being a great late game cleaner built on setting up only a couple of Calm Minds. Spikes alone allows Espeon to 2HKO Registeel after a Calm Mind. Add Stealth Rock into the mix, and your opponent will be in a very grim situation. This variant of Espeon still has trouble with Chansey, though, so Blaziken and the rest of the mixed wall breakers come to mind as viable teammates. Not only do they beat Chansey, they also force switches that increase the residual damage inflicted on the opponent's team. Since this Espeon does not switch in and out often, this allows you to almost disregard defensive compensation for Espeon and focus more on other Pokemon's weaknesses.</p>

[SET]
name: Dual Screen
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Wish / Calm Mind
move 4: Psychic / Baton Pass
item: Light Clay / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Espeon's great Speed helps it set up screens before opposing Pokemon prey on its weak defenses. This set allows Espeon to fulfill a support role on a team. The strategy referred to as "Dual Screen" basically starts off with a Pokemon such as Espeon setting up both Reflect and Light Screen for the team and then the setting up of a sweeper. Espeon can also pass Wish to teammates; it helps when Pokemon with weaker defenses start their stat boosting from full health. Psychic works off of Espeon's base 130 attack, which hits hard even without EV investment.</p>

<p>Since Espeon learns Calm Mind and Baton Pass, it can set up another sweeper quite easily from behind its own screens. Espeon does not have an attacking move in that sense, but your opponent will not know until you reveal Baton Pass and until then will not risk getting hit by a boosted Psychic by using Taunt with a Pokemon such as Ambipom. Espeon has another advantage other than Speed as a "Dual Sceen" user, which is the fact that common Brick Brick users such as Poliwrath will definitely not switch into Espeon in fear of a STAB Psychic.</p>

<p>Pokemon who can cause serious destruction in a few turns of set up are ideal to use in conjunction with this set. Gligar is a great option with this set, being able to pass Agility and Swords Dance to incredibly powerful Pokemon, such as Rampardos and Medicham. The Belly Drum users, such as Charizard, Poliwrath, and Linoone benefit from this set, as it is unlikely that a single attack from an opposing Pokemon will be able to do 50% when the target is shielded by the effects of a screen. A Swords Dance Drapion can get a couple Attack boosts with the increased defenses from the screens and rip through most teams as well, while Substitute and Calm Mind or Bulk Up users will likely be able to keep their Substitutes intact against weaker Pokemon such as Registeel.</p>

<p>With Calm Mind and Baton Pass, Espeon works well with Pokemon who are fast enough to pull off a special sweep after some Calm Mind boosts. Agility Blaziken and Moltres come up again because, with a couple of Calm Mind boosts, almost no Pokemon can stand in the way of these Pokemon's boosted STAB Fire Blasts (aside from Chansey, whom Blaziken can Superpower to death). Charizard is speedy special attackers who appreciate Calm Minds, and even forgotten threats such as Manectric can be deadly with a couple of boosts.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Espeon brings a team loads of special attacking power and is a great asset to any team in need of a little offensive punch or late game sweeper. Espeon as an offensive Pokemon always appreciates Stealth Rock and other residual damage, which turn certain 3HKOes into 2HKOes (e.g. Spikes turns a +1 Hidden Power Ground from the Life Orb set into a 2HKO on Registeel). Pokemon such as Registeel and Steelix work well with Espeon because not only can they set up Stealth Rock, they can also take the Dark, Ghost and Bug-type attacks aimed at Espeon with ease.</p>

<p>Choice Espeon is a great Pokemon to use to lure out and cripple the opponent's special walls while also boasting decent revenge killing power. It takes out Chansey and Registeel with Trick and can KO Pokemon such as Drapion and Steelix with Hidden Power. Mismagius and other special attackers appreciate this because without their counters, they are free to sweep. However, a Choice item comes with drawbacks, so keep a defensive Pokemon such as Regirock or Registeel in the reserve for when Espeon is locked into an undesirable attack and is forced out. Keep in mind that Pokemon Espeon can revenge kill easily, such as Blaziken or Hariyama, are commonly used with Registeel and Chansey, so make sure to keep that in mind and have a trigger finger on Trick in these situations.</p>

<p>Calm Mind Espeon sets have trouble sweeping with specially defensive Pokemon such as Chansey and Registeel or Dark-types in their way. A great way to lure these Pokemon out and cripple them is to use a Trick Specs Mismagius. Mismagius can come in on any of its resistances or immunities, and start firing off strong special attacks at the opponent until they are forced to bring in their special wall, or even possibly a Dark-type that resists Ghost-attacks such as Drapion. That's when Mismagius can Trick the Pokemon Choice Specs, making it rather useless as a counter. Blaziken, Magmortar, Nidoking, and other mixed attackers make great switch-ins to Chansey and Registeel and can wreak havoc on the opponent's team.</p>

<p>A nice strategy to use with a Calm Mind passing variant of Espeon is to have an Agility sweeper on the team to pass to that can take a hit and set up a sweep. Blaziken immediately comes to mind, with access to Agility, great offensive stats, and a resistance to Dark and Bug-type attacks that will be aimed at Espeon quite often. Not to mention, Blaziken can use Superpower to dispose of Chansey. Moltres is another option, hitting harder than Blaziken and having much better defenses (though Chansey is still a little bit of trouble). Another nice little maneuver is to abuse Baton Pass and U-turn on a Pokemon such as Ambipom, or better yet, Scyther, who does more damage. Going back and forth from Espeon to one of these Pokemon with U-turn can prove incredibly annoying for your opponent, especially with Stealth Rock in play. With your opponent always having to send a Pokemon in first, you gain the advantage of being able to send in a counter and force out your opponent over and over again. For example, you use U-turn with Ambipom, and they send out Hariyama, so you send out Espeon with your free switch from U-turn. You then use Baton Pass on Espeon, because Hariyama is forced out, and they send out Chansey, allowing you to go back to Ambipom. Rinse and repeat. This will wear your opponent out fast thanks to Stealth Rock and U-turn damage.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Grass Knot can work on any sweeping set to hit certain foes harder, such as Slowbro and Milotic. Espeon needs all the coverage it gets, however, so you should probably only be using it on a Choice set with 4 attacks.</p>

<p>Fake Tears comes to mind when using a stall team built around entry hazards. Fake Tears can be used to force switches, building up residual damage. However, Registeel and Regirock both have the Clear Body ability, making stat drops fail against them, and they are both common switch-ins to Espeon.</p>

<p>Wish can be used on a Choiced set, allowing Espeon to bluff Light Clay, and letting you take advantage of switches to heal your team. Another attacking move or Baton Pass are almost always better, though, because they allow Espeon to further help remove special walls from the opponent's team. Moonlight can be used on a defensive set as well, as a nice instant recovery move.</p>

[EVs]

<p>For the Choice Specs set, a simple maximum Speed and maximum Special Attack spread with a Timid nature is ideal for increasing damage output and revenge killing power, therefore increasing sweeping power. However, the Speed EVs are dropped to 216 because outspeeding foe Espeon isn't that important, and the extra HP helps switching into resisted hits. For the Choice Scarf set, the Speed EVs can be lowered to 204, which outspeeds Timid or Jolly base 90 Speed Pokemon with a Choice Scarf (such as Roserade). This gives Espeon a few leftover EVs to put into HP for some bulk, allowing it to more reliably survive at least a strong neutral hit if needed.</p>

<p>For the Calm Mind set with Leftovers, 8 HP EVs is all that is needed to get a Leftovers number plus one, which lets Espeon use Substitute an additional time. The Life Orb variant wants to keep its HP odd (giving Espeon another attack), so make sure the extra 4 EVs are not put into HP on that set if you opt for it. The Dual Screen set maximizes Espeon's poor HP and invests in enough Speed to outspeed base 105s such as Scyther and Mismagius. The rest are put into Defense, as Espeon needs all of the support it can get from the physical side. The EspyJump set uses the same spread, but with the remaining EVs put into SpD to give it an easier time setting up against special attackers.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Espeon is a fast Pokemon who works best when played to its strength: special attacking. Outspeeding a good portion of the metagame, Espeon can be a great asset to any team requiring either a revenge killer or late game sweeper. With a Choice item, Espeon can revenge kill and sweep quite well, while crippling special walls in its way with Trick. Calm Mind helps Espeon set up an unbreakable Substitute and proceed to get enough boosts to sweep an entire team, only able to be stopped by a select few Pokemon. Dual Screen helps a lot of teams set up their more dangerous and frail sweepers, and can catch an opponent off guard.</p>

<p>Espeon is a strong special attacker and can do its job on any team in need of a revenge killer and special wall lure, Calm Mind sweeper, or Dual Screen user. With its near unmatchable Speed, its definitely worth considering for your team.</p>

[Counters]

<p>The best switch-in to Espeon is a specially defensive Spiritomb with Pursuit, with its monstrous Special Defense and immunity to Psychic. Chansey is probably the next best switch-in, with its titanic HP and Special Defense stats. Close behind is Registeel, who also has great defensive stats but lacks a recovery move. However, these walls need to beware of Trick from a Choiced variant.</p>

<p>Honchkrow, Umbreon, and basically any other Dark-type with Pursuit can trap and KO Espeon with ease if it is caught locked into a Choiced Psychic, or just threaten Espeon with a STAB Dark-type attack. These Pokemon should watch out for Signal Beam, however, because Espeon's attacks pack a punch and can usually 2HKO these Pokemon. Choice item users with Pursuit can also switch in on Trick and KO Espeon, due to Espeon being locked into Trick. Even something without Pursuit can take Tricks fairly well, gaining an essentially free attack. Dugtrio can also easily trap Espeon and KO it with Earthquake all of the time with Stealth Rock damage, but it can't switch in safely.</p>

<p>Swellow can outspeed Espeon and KO it with a physical attack, making them the best revenge killers. Espeon is also very vulnerable to Sucker Punch, which will do heavy if not fatal damage, though Sucker Punch users need to beware of Substitute and Calm Mind sets. Dugtrio is also very effective revenge killer, OHKOing Espeon with Earthquake, and carrying Sucker Punch for Choice Scarf variants.</p>
 
I'll go back and go grammar crap later (I'll probably just edit it directly into your post tbh).

@Choice: I don't understand the point of Hidden Power Fighting on the Choice set. You claim it is for Ice-types; but it only hits Ice-types for 5 more base power than Psychic. The only Ice-types that could even really consider switching into a Choice Specs Psychic are Regice and Articuno. Articuno takes neutral from HP Fighting so Psychic is a better choice there and Regice takes laughable damage from both Psychic and HP Fighting anyway. I don't see what HP Fighting is for. I guess the only thing I can think of that's relevant is Honckrow. I don't think one Pokemon deserves a slash since it doesn't KO and by that point Honckrow can already put you in the tough position of Sucker Punch versus Pursuit.

@EspyJump: I'm confused why you revamped the EVs to be so offensive. The point of the set isn't to be an offensive threat itself. I'd argue it appreciates the investment in HP far more than in Special Attack. Also, I'm really missing the point of the set without Baton Pass on it. That seems the main selling point of it to me.

Edit: I'll also prefer you retain the mention of "EspyJump" in the set comments for the Baton Pass set. If a newer player is in the shoddy chat and someone mentions EspyJump they won't know what it is likely (although almost everyone else will); however, if it's mentioned in the analysis it might give the newer player a heads up on our jargon. There is confusion about our set-naming policy, so I'm going to clarify it here. We don't suggest you name sets after yourself or give it a stupid name, you call it what people refer to it as (if indeed it has a name that is associated with it). It's about what people call it in practice more than anything. Let's say we are talking about Choice Specs Salamence. If I go to the chat and say "JumpMence" no one will no what I'm talking about, if I say "SpecsMence" everyone does etc. I was just taking this spot to clarify the naming policy, it wasn't really about your analysis lol.

Edit 2: I agree with Chris also.
 
Baton Pass should be a slash over Trick, not Signal Beam. You need it for not being gang raped by Honchkrow for sure every time it comes in. At least you have a 50% shot with Signal Beam.
 
Im still confused about the naming policy then, because for example I didnt think it would be right to name the Mixed (Priority) Blaziken "HeYsUpKen", but it is commonly known and refered to as "HeYsUpKen". LRcanine is another example. If you say LRcanine or HeYsUpKen people will immediately know what your talking about, and even know the exact EVs and playstyle. Neither of us named it after ourselves on the set.

I think he is talking about the fact that things like espyjump and crocune have been part of the standard smogon jargon for quite a while now. If everybody that has ever claimed to have invented a set got their name for it put in the analysis, communicating about the sets with other people would be a pain in the ass. I know I would personally have at LEAST a few dozen sets named after me in the analyses if we actually instituted a policy like that. Most sets that people claim to have invented are just ridiculously obvious, team-specific sets that don't work too well in a more broad sense. Does anyone else remember metanova? xfd. If you say "LRcanine" or "HeYSuPken" or whatever, I have no idea what youre talking about because those sets are relatively new and neither of them are even remotely revolutionary. In fact, I *still* wouldn't know what that set you mentioned is if you didn't describe it for us =\....you're literally the only person that I have ever seen use that nickname for it.

In fact, even searching for "heysupken" on the forums only leads to posts made by you: http://www.smogon.com/forums/search.php?searchid=974904.

Oh, a physical Fighting move on a special-based attacker? I wonder what that could be for. Even looking at the current analyses would not give me any clue as to what these sets are. "HeysupKen" does not describe the set, whereas "mixed priority attacker" does. The analyses are not supposed to be about who made the set, it is about using the set competitively. I think thats what Caecae was getting at....but since it is completely off-topic and already explained anyways I dont think I need to explain any further.

Anyways, onto actually contributing:

[SET]
name: Trick Choice
move 1: Psychic
move 2: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
move 3: Baton Pass / Signal Beam
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Espeon has great Speed and Special Attack, so it is no surprise that it can use a Choice Specs effectively. Psychic is Espeon's main STAB attack, which deals major damage to anything that does not resist it, or is not named Chansey. Hidden Power is used to hit the evercommon Registeel and Steelix switch-ins, and eventually to take its main counter out of the match. Baton Pass is a great move to use to scout your opponent's switch-ins, allowing you to switch to one of your counters. Baton Pass also protects you from dangerous Pursuit users such as Honchkrow and Absol. Trick allows Espeon to cripple its most common switch-ins, such as Chansey or Registeel, allowing another special attacker to sweep.</p>

[my comments: BP is a great move and should be emphasized more]

<p>Hidden Power Ground is recommended for many reasons. Firstly, Hidden Power Ground hits Drapion, who can otherwise switch into Psychic, (removed "and") set up Swords Dance or use Pursuit to KO Espeon. Secondly(add comma) Hidden Power Ground does not lower your Speed IV like Hidden Power Fighting does, which is important when taking other base 110s into consideration (moved the phrase back). However, Hidden Power Fighting gives you much better super effective coverage than Hidden Power Ground, such as hitting Ice-types. If you opt for Hidden Power Ground, and not Signal Beam you are completely walled by Honchkrow and Claydol, so keep that in mind.</p>

[HP Fighting, as has been pointed out, is a pretty subpar option. I would remove it]

<p>Signal Beam can be used over Baton Pass for superior type coverage if you are not a fan of the dry Baton Passing technique for scouting. Shadow Ball can also be used with Hidden Power Fighting, as Ghost and Fighting-type attacks grant perfect coverage. Shadow Ball can be useful to revenge kill Ghost-types such as Mismagius.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf can be used on this Espeon as well, making it outspeed almost every other Pokemon, even those that carry a Choice Scarf of their own. (no, really? Choice Scarf makes you faster than other Pokemon? This is redundant, change the first sentence up.)This makes Espeon a great revenge killer, working off of its base 130 Special Attack stat. A Modest nature is recommended with a Choice Scarf, as Espeon benefits more from the Special Attack boost than it would benefit from boosting its already blazing Speed. If you choose a Choice Scarf, Espeon's Speed EVs can be lowered to 204, which gives Espeon a Speed of 460 with a Modest nature and a Choice Scarf. This allows Espeon to outspeed Timid Choice Scarf Roserade and other base 90 Choice Scarf users. The rest of the EVs can be thrown into HP, to give Espeon a little more bulk (removed some words at end here).</p>

<p>Choice Espeon is arguably the best special wall lure (what makes it better than, say, Milotic who has no boosting moves or way of beating Chansey and would definitely draw it out? Most Espeons are not walled by Chansey or Registeel thanks to Baton Pass and Calm Mind. Just change the phrasing, saying its a good special wall lure. "best" is far from the truth), because of its great base 130 Special Attack. With Registeel and Chansey crippled to the point of uselessness after being Tricked a Choice item, many other special sweepers can shine. Pokemon such as Calm Mind Mismagius and (removed "any") Yanmega appreciate the removal of a team's special wall, allowing them to likely pull of a successful sweep. Drapion is another common switch in to Espeon, and may be taken out with a Hidden Power Ground. Another method of removing these special walls, is to use Baton Pass on the predicted Special Wall switch, and switch to a wall breaker such as Blaziken (Blaziken really isn't the best wall breaker, some more sturdy examples would be nice here to spruce things up). Spiritomb can be annoying for this set, with it not minding Choice Specs too much and boasting great Special Defense, but it can be easily countered by a strong wall breaker, ideally one that is immune to Will-O-Wisp and does not take much from Spiritomb's attacks (Blaziken comes to mind). (Another Blaziken reference? We get it, you like Blaziken. I'm pretty sure Blaziken is not the only pokemon that would benefit from a dry Baton Pass.)</p>

<p>A Choice item on Espeon has its disadvantages as well, as it does for all Pokemon. Espeon however, has a big problem because of common Dark-types being immune to Psychic. Espeon's best coverage moves being Hidden Power Fighting and Hidden Power Ground also have Pokemon they do not touch, such as Ghost-types (Mismagius is also immune to Ground-type attacks) and Flying-types respectively. Having Pokemon that can take Dark and Ghost-type attacks are greatly beneficial. Registeel and Steelix come to mind, resisting both Dark and Ghost-type attacks, while also boasting a Bug-type resistance, which Espeon is weak to as well. Blaziken and other Fighting-types resist Dark-type attacks from Pokemon such as Spiritomb, who tend to get in the way of Espeon as well.</p>

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Signal Beam / Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Espeon's great Special Attack, Speed, and decent Special Defense, Espeon makes a great Calm Mind user. Psychic is Espeon's main STAB attack, while Hidden Power Fighting and Signal Beam offer decent coverage with Psychic. Substitute protects Espeon from status and critical hits, while Calm Mind helps to ensure those Substitutes stay intact.</p>

<p>Psychic is unfortunately a poor STAB to have, as it is impossible to cover all of the resistances with one attack. Both Signal Beam and Hidden Power Fighting hit Dark-types super effectively, but since the most common Dark-types (Honchkrow, Spiritomb, and Drapion) have a secondary type that resists them, it only hits them neutrally. Hidden Power Fighting is suggested, because Registeel and Steelix will commonly switch in to Espeon, and having an attack to take them out after a couple Calm Minds is very benifitial. However, Signal Beam hits far more Pokemon for neutral damage, such as Spiritomb and other Psychic-types who would otherwise wall this set. Baton Pass can be used over a second attack, because with Espeon's high Speed, it can use a couple Calm Minds and pass them to a Pokemon with better coverage at its disposal, such as Charizard or Shaymin. Hidden Power Ground works in this slot as well, while keeping the 31 Speed IV, and hitting Drapion for super effective damage, though Honchkrow is completely immune to both of Espeon's attacks in that case.</p>

<p>The extra EV in HP is there to achieve maximum recovery from Leftovers, plus one more HP. This allows you to Substitute an additional time, which could definitely prove useful for drawing out misses, full paralysis, and scouting.</p>

<p>With Calm Mind Espeon unable to break through Chansey or Registeel without getting timely Special Defense drops or critical hits, Espeon greatly appreciates the Pokemon known as "wall breakers". Blaziken and Magmortar come to mind, hitting Chansey with Fighting-type attacks, and incinerating Registeel. Similar to Espeon's Trick Choice set, Mismagius and Espeon can reverse their roles with Mismagius using Trick to cripple Chansey or Registeel </p>

<p>Defensively, taking hits from Chansey and Registeel are fairly easy, so any sort of Pokemon with high attack that can take an Iron Head or Siesmic Toss well works great with Espeon.</p>

<p>With a couple Calm Minds under its belt, Espeon can then Baton Pass the boosts to a teammate and set up a sweep. An Agility Blaziken greatly appreciates any Calm Minds passed to it. With Blaziken's resistance to Bug and Dark-type attacks that will be aimed at Espeon, passing to Blaziken is easier than one would think with Blaziken's below average defenses.(More fucking Blaziken? I can think of about 15 pokemon off the top of my head that would be better partners for Espeon, but you picked Blaziken for every single one? You really need to make the team options a bit more diverse, hearing "Blaziken this, Blaziken that" is really making me want to ignore Espeon and just use Blaziken instead)</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind + 3 Attacks
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
move 4: Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A great way to remedy poor two move coverage is by, you guessed it, using three attacks. Calm Mind boosts Espeons already sky high Special Attack stat, while getting a few more boosts if setting up on a weak special attacker. Psychic provides STAB damage, and the rest of the moves provide decent coverage. Hidden Power Ground hits Steel-types and Drapion for super effective damage, which are very important targets, as they both commonly switch in to Espeon, expecting a Choiced Psychic. Signal Beam hits Psychic types super effective, such as fellow Espeon and Slowbro. Signal Beam also hits Claydol for super effectiveremoved comma) and Honchkrow for neutral, who would otherwise wall this set. You should keep Espeon hidden from your opponent untill it needs to sweep, so that your opponent will hopefully be weak enough to sweep easily.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Fighting and Shadow Ball can be used because Shadow Ball hits Ghost-types for super effective damage, while also hitting other Psychics harder than Signal Beam, and Hidden Power Fighting covers the lost Honchkrow coverage that Signal Beam had. (I really don't think you're getting past Honchkrow's Sucker Punch even with Signal Beam, so that part is pretty much irrelevant)</p>

<p>This Espeon greatly benefits from residual damage the most out of any set, due to being a great late game clean up built on setting up only a couple of Calm Minds. Stealth Rock alone allows Espeon to 2HKO Registeel after a Calm Mind, add Spikes into the mix and you have your opponent in a very grim situation. This variant of Espeon still has trouble with Chansey though, so Blaziken and the rest of the mixed wall breakers come to mind as viable teammates, not to mention they force switches to increase residual damage done. Since this Espeon does not switch in and out often, this allows you to almost disregard defensive compensation for Espeon, and focus more on other Pokemon's weaknesses.</p>

[SET]
name: Dual Screen
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Wish / Calm Mind
move 4: Psychic / Baton Pass
item: Light Clay / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Espeon's great Speed helps it set up screens before opposing Pokemon prey on its weak defenses, and allows Espeon to fulfill support role on the team. The strategy referred to as "Dual Screen", basically starts off with a Pokemon such as Espeon to put up both Reflect and Light Screen for the team, and proceed to set up a sweeper. Espeon can also pass Wish to team mates, it helps the the Pokemon with weaker defenses start their stat boosting from full health. Psychic works off of Espeon's base 130 attack, which hits hard even without EV investment.</p>

<p>Since Espeon learns Calm Mind and Baton Pass, Espeon can set up another sweeper quite easily from behind its own screens. Espeon does not have an attacking move in that sense, but your opponent will not know untill you reveal Baton Pass, and will not want to risk getting hit by a boosted Psychic by using Taunt. Espeon has another advantage other than Speed, as a "Dual Sceen" user, which is the fact that Brick Brick users such as Poliwrath will definately not switch in to Espeon, in fear of a STAB Psychic.</p>

<p>Pokemon who can cause serious destruction in a few turns of set up are ideal in conjunction with this set. Gligar is a great option with this set, being able to pass Agility and Swords Dance to incredibly powerful Pokemon, such as Rampardos and Medicham. The Belly Drum users, such as Charizard, Poliwrath and Linoone benefit from this set, as the opponent will not likely be able to do 50% in one attack under the effects of a screen. A Swords Dance Drapion can get a couple Attack boosts with the increased defenses it has, and rip through most teams as well, while Substitute and Calm Mind or Bulk Up users will likely be able to keep their substitutes intact.</p>

<p>With Calm Mind and Baton Pass, Espeon works well with Pokemon who are fast enough to pull of a special sweep after some Calm Mind boosts. Agility Blaziken comes up again, because with a couple Calm Mind boosts, nothing will stand in the way of Blaziken's Fire Blasts, that won't be crumbled by a Superpower.(Once again, I'm pretty sure Blaziken has been represented enough already in this Espeon edit. Can you please write about something else?)</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Espeon brings a team loads of special attacking power, and is a great asset to any team in need of a little offensive punch or late game sweeper. Espeon as an offensive Pokemon always appreciates Stealth Rock and other residual damage, turning certain 3HKOes into 2HKOes (e.g. Stealth Rock turns a +1 Hidden Power Ground into a 2HKO on Registeel, with the Life Orb set). Pokemon such as Registeel and Steelix work well with Espeon, because not only can they set up Stealth Rock, they can also take the Dark, Ghost and Bug-type attacks aimed at Espeon with ease.</p>

<p>Choice Espeon is a great Pokemon to lure out and cripple the opponent's special walls, while also boasting decent revenge killing power. It takes out Chansey and Registeel with Trick, and can KO Pokemon such as Drapion and Steelix with Hidden Power. Mismagius and other special attackers appreciate this, because without their counters they are free to sweep. However a Choice item comes with drawbacks, so keep a defensive Pokemon such as Regirock or Registeel in the reserve for when Espeon is locked into an undesirable attack and is forced out. Keep in mind that Pokemon Espeon can revenge kill easily, such as Blaziken or Hariyama, are commonly used with Registeel and Chansey, so make sure to keep that in mind and have a trigger finger on Trick in these situations.</p>

<p>Calm Mind Espeon sets have trouble sweeping with specially defensive Pokemon such as Chansey and Registeel or Dark-types in their way. A great way to lure these Pokemon out and cripple them, is to use a Trick Specs Mismagius. Mismagius can come in on any of its resistances or immunities, and start firing off strong special attacks at the opponent, untill they are forced to bring in their special wall, or even possibly a Dark-type such as Drapion, who resists Ghost-type attacks. Thats when Mismagius can Trick the Pokemon Choice Specs, making it rather useless as a counter. Blaziken, Magmortar, Nidoking and other mixed attackers make great switch-ins to Chansey and Registeel, and can wreak havoc on the opponent's team.</p>

<p>A nice strategy to use with a Calm Mind passing variant of Espeon is to have an Agility sweeper on the team to pass to, that can take a hit and set up a sweep. Blaziken immediately comes to mind, having Agility, great stats and resisting Dark and Bug-type attacks that will be aimed at Espeon quite often. Not to mention, Blaziken can use Superpower to dispose of Chansey. Another nice little maneuver is to abuse Baton Pass and U-turn on a Pokemon such as Crobat, Ambipom, or better yet, Scyther who does more damage. Going back and forth to Espeon and one of these Pokemon with U-turn can prove incredibly annoying for your opponent, especially with Stealth Rock in play. With your opponent always having to send a Pokemon in first, you gain the advantage of being able to send in a counter, and force out your opponent over and over again. For example, you use with U-turn with Ambipom and they send out Hariyama, so you send out Espeon with your free switch from U-turn. You then use Baton Pass on Espeon, because Hariyama is forced out, and they send out Chansey, while you are able to choose your Pokemon after they switch, allowing you to go back to Ambipom, rinse and repeat. This will wear your opponent out fast with Stealth Rock in play and U-turn damage.</p>
[EVs]

<p>For the Choice Specs set, a simple maximum Speed and maximum Special Attack spread with a Timid nature is ideal for increasing damage output, revenge killing power, and therefore sweeping power. For the Choice Scarf set, the Speed EVs can be lowered to 204, which outspeeds Timid or Jolly base 90 Speed Pokemon with a Choice Scarf (such as Roserade). This gives Espeon a few leftover EVs to put into HP for some bulk, allowing it to more reliably survive at least a strong neutral hit if needed.</p>

<p>For the sets with Leftovers, 8 HP EVs is all that is needed to get a Leftovers (proofreading is so underrated!) number plus one, which lets Espeon use Substitute an additional time. The Life Orb set wants to keep its HP odd (giving Espeon another attack), so make sure the extra 4 EVs are not put into HP on that set. The Dual Screen set maximizes Espeon's poor HP, and invests in enough Speed to outspeed base 105s such as Scyther and Mismagius. The rest are put into Defense, as Espeon needs all of the support it can get from the physical side.</p>


<p>Crobat and Swellow can outspeed Espeon, and KO it with a physical attack, making them the best revenge killers. Anything with Sucker Punch can OHKO Espeon as well(I'm pretty sure this isn't true. Change it to "Espeon is especially vulnerable to Sucker Punch" or something like that), though beware of Substitute and Calm Mind sets.</p>

As I mentioned in there, you really need to come up with a better team options section for each set. I understand that you like Blaziken and I understand that it can work well with Espeon, but if I read your analysis I would think that it is the only pokemon capable of working with it. You really need to add some more variety there, as well as do some basic proofreading. The sets themselves aren't bad, although I would put Baton Pass as the main option on the SubCMBP set
 
I think he is talking about the fact that things like espyjump and crocune have been part of the standard smogon jargon for quite a while now. If everybody that has ever claimed to have invented a set got their name for it put in the analysis, communicating about the sets with other people would be a pain in the ass. I know I would personally have at LEAST a few dozen sets named after me in the analyses if we actually instituted a policy like that. Most sets that people claim to have invented are just ridiculously obvious, team-specific sets that don't work too well in a more broad sense. Does anyone else remember metanova? xfd. If you say "LRcanine" or "HeYSuPken" or whatever, I have no idea what youre talking about because those sets are relatively new and neither of them are even remotely revolutionary. In fact, I *still* wouldn't know what that set you mentioned is if you didn't describe it for us =\....you're literally the only person that I have ever seen use that nickname for it.

In fact, even searching for "heysupken" on the forums only leads to posts made by you: http://www.smogon.com/forums/search.php?searchid=974904.

Oh, a physical Fighting move on a special-based attacker? I wonder what that could be for. Even looking at the current analyses would not give me any clue as to what these sets are. "HeysupKen" does not describe the set, whereas "mixed priority attacker" does. The analyses are not supposed to be about who made the set, it is about using the set competitively. I think thats what Caecae was getting at....but since it is completely off-topic and already explained anyways I dont think I need to explain any further.

I suppose, I have heard people say it before on Shoddy, thats when I started using it to. You could look up "HeYsUp's" and "Blaziken" in the RMT forums and UU threads, im sure they are used in the same sentance by many people, but either way, i think i further understand what Caelum was saying, which was: "If they are known already, then use it, if not, then dont name new stuff like that". So thanks for further clearing it up, though it didnt need the sarcastic tone. Whether or not you like the Blaziken or Arcanine set, or saying its uncreative doesnt mean its not known by another name. If you havent heard LRcanine than..lol. But thats all for this discussion.

Anyways, onto actually contributing:

As I mentioned in there, you really need to come up with a better team options section for each set. I understand that you like Blaziken and I understand that it can work well with Espeon, but if I read your analysis I would think that it is the only pokemon capable of working with it. You really need to add some more variety there, as well as do some basic proofreading. The sets themselves aren't bad, although I would put Baton Pass as the main option on the SubCMBP set

Ok, firstly I added BP as the main option and removed HP fighting already....

I guess I'll try a bit more variety with the team options, its just that Blaziken has perfect resistances to go with Espeon (its not because I like him, honestly). If there are so many examples please share, by the way.

Adding in the grammatical bits now

Honestly thanks for the input, even if I have to deal with the sarcasm.

EDIT: Ok, so there were a few things i didnt change. On the CM set, Espeon can use Calm Mind on a Sucker Punch from Honchkrow, so hitting it is very very relivant.

The thing is that with Espeon the team options section seem a bit more redundant than usual, im having difficulty changing that as well, because it just so happens that Blaziken is the one of the most, if not the most commonly used wall breaker in UU (remember, its not because I 'like' it, its because Blaziken is a very useful Pokemon in conjuction with late game sweepers), and also happens to be a great Baton Pass target for Espeon, with Dark and bug resistances.

I tried to limit it a bit though.
 
I'm not sure if this is finished. There are still some disagreements it seems.

HeYsUp said:
I basically redid everything, because the sets were wither.....not good, or made for OU (such as EspyJump). Espeon needs max Speed, no question, and the special attack definately helps with sweeping, which is it's main priority. The point of Baton Pass is so that it can get out when it is met with a counter. In UU Espeon is a much better Calm Mind sweeper, and a not-as-good Baton Passer, with Crobat running around. Baton Pass can be used, though. I could easily add another set called "EspyJump", with those EVs but I have not tested it without max/max (which works quite well). The EVs in EspyJump are not even explained in the analysis, so im not exactly sure of their benifits. I think what im going to actually, is put Baton Pass as the primary option. List the EspyJump EVs in Set Comments as an alternative spread, and refer to the Baton Pass option as "EspyJump".

The Calm Mind + Baton Pass / EspyJump Espeon is designed to Baton Pass, helping with the whole counter the incoming Pokémon thing (which arguably any threatening Baton Passer can do, eg. Jolteon). However, as far as I know, it is designed to pass Calm Minds when possible, creating an unbreakable Substitute that can be passed with Calm Minds to a threatening special sweeper (eg. Empoleon), after the previously scouted counter has been taken out. One could argue that Calm Mind + Baton Pass / EspyJump is not designed to sweep as such, but to support a more threatening team mate's sweep.

I don't know the purpose of the EVs on the set, but I am 100% sure Jump could explain the reasoning (I will ask him later). If you haven't used the EV spread I don't know how you can argue that another EV spread is better, at all. You don't change things which you aren't sure about because you don't know how it plays but you've used another set - that's not how it works.
 
I'm not sure if this is finished. There are still some disagreements it seems.



The Calm Mind + Baton Pass / EspyJump Espeon is designed to Baton Pass, helping with the whole counter the incoming Pokémon thing (which arguably any threatening Baton Passer can do, eg. Jolteon). However, as far as I know, it is designed to pass Calm Minds when possible, creating an unbreakable Substitute that can be passed with Calm Minds to a threatening special sweeper (eg. Empoleon), after the previously scouted counter has been taken out. One could argue that Calm Mind + Baton Pass / EspyJump is not designed to sweep as such, but to support a more threatening team mate's sweep.

I don't know the purpose of the EVs on the set, but I am 100% sure Jump could explain the reasoning (I will ask him later). If you haven't used the EV spread I don't know how you can argue that another EV spread is better, at all. You don't change things which you aren't sure about because you don't know how it plays but you've used another set - that's not how it works.

I don't know where you're getting that from, but whatever, I have tested both of the spreads.

Basically all of this confusion is from combining the SubCM sweeper, with EspyJump. Now from what I tested in new UU, using the max SpA Spread has more benefits then using Max HP, because Espeon is so fragile physically. Instead of giving Pokemon like Hariyama the chance to stay in and OHKO you (Psychic does 92.65% average), or having Pokemon like Regirock fully stop you in your tracks, you can stay in and KO them with Psychic. I listed the bulkier max HP Spread in the set comments, because it still helps against various Pokemon.

The confusing aspect of the old EspyJump EVs, is that the old EVs aren't explained in the analysis at all. The EVs in the current analysis make little to no sense, because Espeon is slower than so many Pokemon if it isnt max speed. What I asked for is someone to explain the old EVs to see if I should include them, and if there isnt any explination then I think I should keep the max SpA spread, and the max HP spread in SC's
 
Maybe you should do a little research and have some common sense before you talk.

196 EVs and a Timid nature hits 334 Speed. OU Speed tiers at the beginning of DP had Jolly Garchomp at 333 Speed, so obviously 334 Speed would be outspeeding Garchomp. Now, the lack of Chomp in UU means that of course the speed is nonsensical there, but somehow you seem unable to just investigate a little yourself.

If you can come up with a better spread, do so. But don't just junk the old EVs for no reason.
 
HeYsUp said:
I basically redid everything, because the sets were wither.....not good, or made for OU (such as EspyJump). Espeon needs max Speed, no question, and the special attack definately helps with sweeping, which is it's main priority. The point of Baton Pass is so that it can get out when it is met with a counter. In UU Espeon is a much better Calm Mind sweeper, and a not-as-good Baton Passer, with Crobat running around. Baton Pass can be used, though. I could easily add another set called "EspyJump", with those EVs but I have not tested it without max/max (which works quite well). The EVs in EspyJump are not even explained in the analysis, so im not exactly sure of their benifits. I think what im going to actually, is put Baton Pass as the primary option. List the EspyJump EVs in Set Comments as an alternative spread, and refer to the Baton Pass option as "EspyJump".
I was accidently viewing your deleted post, but it is still pretty clear.

The fact that it's Baton Passing and not sweeping should give an obvious indication of bulk over Special Attack.

192 Speed obviously hit 334 Speed (used to outspeed the old Garchomp, I admit this is outdated), and as the analysis says: "For the Baton Pass set you should focus on HP, Special Defense, and Speed. The defensive EVs allow Espeon to tank special attacks while setting up, and the Speed EVs help to Baton Pass before taking a hit." So basically, the rest go into HP / SDef for bulk. I don't see why you need that explained, a quick button press on Shoddy would show you 334 Speed, and it's clear the rest is for bulk.

It's quite obvious you are missing the point: it doesn't need max Special Attack. It isn't designed as a special attacker, it's designed to Baton Pass boosts to a more designated sweeper. If people want to sweep they would run max / max with more offensive moves (eg. Hidden Power etc). The two sets have different aims.

/edit: Lost to SDS :(
 
The reason i'm not testing the old EVs is because im not in the mood to be outsped by Mismagius, and OHKOed before I get to pass anything.

This is where "common sense" comes in, and I feel that my max hp / max Spe spread works in UU, where as this (clearly flawed by all UU standards) spread does not even take into acount Mismagius' existance.

How exactly do the "speed EVs help Baton Pass before taking a hit" when its slower than Mismagius, other Espeon, and other base 105s and 110s? I just simply don't understand that.

I really think that the idea of using EspyJump was to not necessarily take a hit, but to set up Calm Minds, sweep if you can with Psychic, and Baton Pass if you're in trouble.

However, if you are concerned about the order of the slashes, then just say so. If you aren't convinced that the SubCM set deserves the "first slash" then I will gladly switch around the EV spreads. I picked the max SpA spread to remain there, because it works for both spreads, and from my testing, the SubCM+BP with max SpA was just as good if not better than the bulky one, with the ability to weaken other Pokemon's counters (like Regirock for example, who will use Earthquake to break Espeon's Sub (for accuracy's sake), giving Espeon a chance to hit it hard with a STAB Psychic, and BP to Yanmega, or if it's using Rock Slide then you can switch to something like Nidoking or Blaziken) and lure out a Pokemon that it can Baton Pass to.

Just to clarify, what exactly are you two suggesting I do?
 
HeYsUp look at the sweeper set on-site. If you wanted to do a set like you are describing, you would just run that.

We are concerned about the EVs. Why is EspyJump / Baton Pass running 248 SpA? It's pointless, because sweeping with Espeon isn't the point of the set. If I want to sweep, I would use the sweeper set, believe it or not (I'm repeating myself here). If you really want to continue arguing about the point of EspyJump, do so, but it's evident to everyone else that sweeping with Espeon comes second to Baton Passing boosts and out to counters.

We suggest adding a bit more Speed, but basically, getting rid of the Special Attack.
 
I really haven't been following this debate much, but why not just use 216 Speed, max HP and the rest in SpD? While I agree with twash and sds that you should really stop completely abandoning sets/ev spreads that are currently in the analyses without explaining why or testing them, but outspeeding Mismagius is much more important than outspeeding anything else.

216 Speed puts you at 341 (you cant hit 340 with a Timid nature due to the bonus point), which puts you faster than Mismagius...and it still gives you a bit of Special Defense. It's not like that 64 SpDef was for anything specific, anyways. TBQH I would make the Speed way lower anyways...it's not like Mismagius is switching into Espeon's attacks anytime soon anyways since Espeon is faster and 2hkos it. I'd personally just outspeed Shaymin and call it a day. Hell, I'd even drop it down to one point faster than Drapion, if Shaymin gets banned. That extra Speed is only for Timid Mismagius, who wont be switching in, and lol Jolly Scyther. Espeon has a unique Speed Tier in UU, why not use it like you do in the first set?

Basically: replace the EspyJump SpAtk EVs with HP and a more suitable spread...and mention substitute and leftovers as options in the CM Sweeper comments. EspyJump is about baton pass, not about psychic. The problem isn't with the Speed EVs on EspyJump, its with the SpAtk. The offensive CM set should be offensive, and the sturdy baton passer should be defensive. I hope this made it clearer.
 
[SET]
name: Trick Choice

move 1: Psychic
move 2: Hidden Power Ground
move 3: Baton Pass / Signal Beam
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

Do you really want to give Honchkrow 100% free switch ins? At least slash HP Fire or something so that if you use two attacks you're not totally ruined by one Pokemon.

You can really get away with only 216 Speed on EspyJump. You have Sub, and there's not much in the 110 area anyway. Mismagius is the major concern.

Why 248 Special Attack? Is there a reason?

name: EspyJump / Calm Mind sweeper

Those are both two extremely different sets that play almost nothing like each other, at all. There's absolutely no reason to combine them.

e: oh i already posted about honch
 
HeYsUp look at the sweeper set on-site. If you wanted to do a set like you are describing, you would just run that.

We are concerned about the EVs. Why is EspyJump / Baton Pass running 248 SpA? It's pointless, because sweeping with Espeon isn't the point of the set. If I want to sweep, I would use the sweeper set, believe it or not (I'm repeating myself here). If you really want to continue arguing about the point of EspyJump, do so, but it's evident to everyone else that sweeping with Espeon comes second to Baton Passing boosts and out to counters.

We suggest adding a bit more Speed, but basically, getting rid of the Special Attack.

The Sweeper set on site is very very outdated (almost as much as the EspyJump EVs) and for lack of better words, bad.

And please stop saying that max SpA is pointless, I have explained it in previous posts AND in the analysis.

The mind set of "Espeon is only a Baton Passer" is very outdated, with all due respect. This is just carrying from the OU role that Espeon played, where it was outclassed as a Calm Mind sweeper by CM Zam.

The title of the set is "EspyJump / Calm Mind Sweeper", not just "EspyJump", because it isn't outclassed as a Calm Mind sweeper anymore. That's why I combined the sets in the first place.

Now if you want me to just re-arrange the EV spreads (Put 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe as the main spread, and put 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe in the Set Comments) then I'll do that gladly. I just want you to consider that I've tested them both. I didnt just "drop an EV spread" like SDS says I did, I just revamped it for UU (which was the point, I thought) because obviously Outspeeding Mismagius and the like is more important then outspeeding Garchomp, and I combined it with the the "Calm Mind Sweeper" set. I put the spread that worked for both sets as the main option.

I was under the impression that we should merge two sets that have the same movesets.

@ Chris:

I explained HP Ground in the analysis right here:

<p>Hidden Power Ground is recommended for many reasons. Firstly, Hidden Power Ground hits Drapion, who can otherwise switch into Psychic, set up Swords Dance or use Pursuit to KO Espeon. Secondly, Hidden Power Ground does not lower your Speed IV like Hidden Power Fighting does, which is important when taking other base 110s into consideration. However, if you opt for Baton Pass over Signal Beam, you are completely walled by Honchkrow and Claydol, so keep that in mind.</p>

And I explained the HP EVs right here:

<p>The extra EV in HP is there to achieve the leftovers number plus one more HP. This allows you to Substitute an additional time, which could definitely prove useful for drawing out misses, full paralysis, and scouting.</p>

and right here:

<p>For the sets with Leftovers, 8 HP EVs is all that is needed to get a Leftovers number plus one, which lets Espeon use Substitute an additional time. The Life Orb set wants to keep its HP odd (giving Espeon another attack), so make sure the extra 4 EVs are not put into HP on that set. The Dual Screen set maximizes Espeon's poor HP, and invests in enough Speed to outspeed base 105s such as Scyther and Mismagius. The rest are put into Defense, as Espeon needs all of the support it can get from the physical side.</p>

I think you could have read that yourself >.>


EDIT:

Should I just take off the Calm Mind set, and add it slashed to the Offensive Calm Mind sweeper?

They will look like this:

[SET]
name: EspyJump

move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

and

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind

move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
move 4: Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

With Substitute in set Comments.

 
HeYsUp said:
The Sweeper set on site is very very outdated (almost as much as the EspyJump EVs) and for lack of better words, bad.

And please stop saying that max SpA is pointless, I have explained it in previous posts AND in the analysis.
So it's outdated. But the point is still there, when you are running a sweeper set on Espeon you are running 252/252 most of the time. If you're going to ignore my point I'll just ignore yours. If you actually bother to read my post, you'll realise EspyJump is running bulk because it's Baton Passing. It's not sweeping. What you don't quite understand about this I don't know. It's the exact same reason we run far less Attack on Baton Pass Scizor: the bulk is better than the power when Baton Passing.
If you are sweeping you use more power.
If you are Baton Passing you use bulk.
Is it that complicated? Espeon is not sweeping with the Baton Pass set. I'm not saying the Special Attack is "pointless", I'm saying it's less useful than the bulk.


HeYsUp said:
The mind set of "Espeon is only a Baton Passer" is very outdated, with all due respect. This is just carrying from the OU role that Espeon played, where it was outclassed as a Calm Mind sweeper by CM Zam.

The title of the set is "EspyJump / Calm Mind Sweeper", not just "EspyJump", because it isn't outclassed as a Calm Mind sweeper anymore. That's why I combined the sets in the first place.
I never, ever, said Espeon could not sweep. I don't know why you are creating a false mindset for me randomly for things I never said. As others, and myself, have said, they play differently. Therefore they are both allowed to have different sets. If you read my post thoroughly (again, that is), you will notice I quite evidently pointed out that WHEN Espeon is Baton Passing you run bulk, and WHEN Espeon is sweeping it uses more Special Attack, where it is more valuable. If you can show me where I said Espeon couldn't sweep I would be happy, but I don't stand by that statement, at all.

I refer to it as EspyJump because it's shorter to quickly type and that's how I know it. You know what I am on about. To be honest there is already a Calm Mind + 3 Attacks and a Baton Pass + Calm Mind Sweeper set on the analysis you wrote. It makes no sense. Just get rid of the Calm Mind Sweeper on the BP set.

Calm Mind sweeper is different to the Baton Passer. There should be two seperate sets.
---
[SET]
name: Baton Pass

move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

and

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind

move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
move 4: Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Is fine. They play differently, both work so I don't realise what the fuss is all about (although you may want to drop the Speed like j7r said).
 
lol, I wasn't trying to fuss, I was trying to understand what you wanted me to do.

Now that we've reached a conclusion I'll just changed the set comments accordingly. Check back in a bit.

EDIT: the reason for the max Speed was because of signal beam hitting other Espeon.

EDIT2: I think I fixed the sets up, what do you guys think?
 
@ Chris:

I explained HP Ground in the analysis right here:

Quote:
<p>Hidden Power Ground is recommended for many reasons. Firstly, Hidden Power Ground hits Drapion, who can otherwise switch into Psychic, set up Swords Dance or use Pursuit to KO Espeon. Secondly, Hidden Power Ground does not lower your Speed IV like Hidden Power Fighting does, which is important when taking other base 110s into consideration. However, if you opt for Baton Pass over Signal Beam, you are completely walled by Honchkrow and Claydol, so keep that in mind.</p>
Here's my main question: What "other base 110s" do you speak of?

Also, anyone will agree that Honchkrow is more of a threat than Drapion...
 
Espeon, Jumpluff, Floatzel, etc. are base 110s. That isnt even the main point either, the main point is hitting Drapion WHILE hitting Steels.

Honchkrow is a threat, but Espeon cant deal with it if you use HP Fighting / Fire either. Espeon can actually eliminate Drapion while still hitting Steels, thus making it a better choice.

KOing Drapion > Hitting Honchkrow for meh damage.
 
Jumpluff and Floatzel are both very uncommon; the latter has priority anyway and the former isn't switching into anything but the stupidly dangerous HP Ground. Those aren't really reasons to forgo 10 extra HP personally.

Espeon can very much "deal" with Honch wiht HP Fire, as it does a good 30-40% damage, as opposed to absolutely nothing. It can't beat it, but it makes it die much faster. Espeon cannot OHKO Special Defensive Drapion (a much lesser threat) anyway.

Specs Ground moves also suck ass if you didn't know. You do not have a safe move to use in situations with little information on the set.

Hitting Honchkrow for 30-40% damage > KOing Drapion that don't invest in Special Defense and are slower than Espeon while locking yourself into the most dangerous Choice item type in the game.
 
I dont agree with that in any way. The end result of Honchkrow switching into a HP Fire is essentially the same either way.

Honchkrow switching into HP Fire: Espeon faints to Sucker Punch, Night Slash, or Pursuit

Honchkrow switching into HP Ground: Espeon faints to Sucker Punch, Night Slash, or Pursuit.

The same thing happens aside from Honchkrow only having limitted attacks left, while Drapion is actually KOed when it switches in, OR can be revenge killed my Espeon:

Espeon revenge killing Swords Dance Drapion with HP Ground:

538 Atk vs 186 Def & 281 HP (70 Base Power): 292 - 344 (103.91% - 122.42%)

Espeon beating a Max HP / Max SpD+ Drapion on the switch:

538 Atk vs 273 Def & 344 HP (70 Base Power): 198 - 234 (57.56% - 68.02%)

While HP Fire can't come close either way (if you want a damage estimate, halve HP Ground's damage).

Thats why HP Ground is better, HP Fire is trying to do too much and even fails to do that. The only benefit of using HP Fire is the fact that you aren't locked into a Ground-type attack, but that's not worth it imo.
 
I dont agree with that in any way. The end result of Honchkrow switching into a HP Fire is essentially the same either way.

Honchkrow switching into HP Fire: Espeon faints to Sucker Punch, Night Slash, or Pursuit

You missed my point. Specifically where I said that it doesn't beat Honchkrow, it weakens it. With it taking 25% from SR and 40% from HP Fire, it'll be significantly lower in health, which is a pretty big deal for a lot of things, instead of the current spread, where you instantly lose no matter what you do, even if they have a 26% Honchkrow!

Honchkrow switching into HP Ground: Espeon faints to Sucker Punch, Night Slash, or Pursuit.

The same thing happens aside from Honchkrow only having limitted attacks left, while Drapion is actually KOed when it switches in, OR can be revenge killed my Espeon:

Espeon revenge killing Swords Dance Drapion with HP Ground:

538 Atk vs 186 Def & 281 HP (70 Base Power): 292 - 344 (103.91% - 122.42%)

Espeon beating a Max HP / Max SpD+ Drapion on the switch:

538 Atk vs 273 Def & 344 HP (70 Base Power): 198 - 234 (57.56% - 68.02%)

While HP Fire can't come close either way (if you want a damage estimate, halve HP Ground's damage).

Yup. It does beat Drapions that don't invest in Special Defense. I said that. YOu ignored my main point though, on how it gives free switch ins to too many Pokémon. Choice sets are about neutral coverage.

Thats why HP Ground is better, HP Fire is trying to do too much and even fails to do that.

This line doesn't even make sense. It hits Steels, just like HP Ground, and nothing (but Houndoom fuck you) is immune to it.

The only benefit of using HP Fire is the fact that you aren't locked into a Ground-type attack, but that's not worth it imo.

That and you can damage Honchkrow, still 2HKO non Special Defensive Drapion, and all of that stuff. And not give free switch ins to the multitude of LEvitators. And be able to use it more than once in a row without much risk.
 
I think you're forgetting the fact that Espeon has Baton Pass / Signal Beam for that reason, it doesn't instantly lose to Honchkrow.

If Honchkrow switches into HP Fire, it's because you have mispredicted and not used BPass / SBeam, which are the moves that you use when you are predicting Honch. Not HP Fire.

Without HP Ground, you lose all ability to beat Drapion, one of Espeon's most common counters. HP Fire is basically just a worse Signal Beam for Hitting Honchkrow, and TBH I'd rather Baton Pass away anyway.

If Espeon was only allowed 2 moves, then I'd maybe Slash in HP Fighting or Fire. However, since Espeon doesn't rely on the HP slot to do anything but beat Steel types, Hidden Power Ground is superior, because it can do stuff other than hit Steels unlike HP Fire, which only hits something if you predict wrong.

In short:

HP Ground beats defensive Drapion on the switch, and OHKOes offensive Drapion on the revenge kill, which HP Fire fails to do. However many Pokemon are immune to it, such as Honchkrow.

HP Fire hits Honchkrow if you mispredict a steel switch-in, however Espeon has better moves to deal with Honchkrow, and you lose the ability to deal with Drapion.

Espeon already has Honchkrow covered with Signal Beam / Baton Pass. Therefore Espeon's HP slot should deal with a more realistic counter: Drapion.
 
Okay, if we are done discussing the Hidden Power Fire thing, I believe this analysis is done. (unless of course someone else has something to add)
 
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