That list is pretty interesting. Although your arguments for testing a few pokemon are off. Infernapes Fire/Fighting typing is not BAD AT ALL and neither is Breloom's Grass/Fighting. Infernape's typing grant's it neautrality to SR and great STAB. Breloom can come in on Rock and Ground moves, (though not repeatedely) and can come in on Leech Seed. IMO their typing is a reason they shouldn't be tested. I'll look over it more but good stuff. :)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Format-2 Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Kagster123
- Start date
- Status
That list is pretty interesting. Although your arguments for testing a few pokemon are off. Infernapes Fire/Fighting typing is not BAD AT ALL and neither is Breloom's Grass/Fighting. Infernape's typing grant's it neautrality to SR and great STAB. Breloom can come in on Rock and Ground moves, (though not repeatedely) and can come in on Leech Seed. IMO their typing is a reason they shouldn't be tested. I'll look over it more but good stuff. :)
Philosophy Two, as discussed in policy, is to make a format as broad as possible.
Proper game design philosophy also says that usage is not a viable statistic on its own, and should be coupled with an overall analysis of the pokemon in the metagame. We do it when we whine, why not do it when we work? The netbattle guys did, and RSE was a really well-balanced meta because of it.
So what I and a few others have done is start work on a new format. It is not designed to replace anything, but should appeal to UU players who are tired of a narrow meta, and to OU players who want to try out some of the lower-end stuff that is getting flattened by the extremely centralized upper half of OU.
So I present to you, Format-2. The testing doc is here: 67.15.245.21/emlia/pokemon.html and is a living document. To summarize the restrictions:
Standard Clauses
All Ubers are Banned
The following pokemon are banned:
Azelf, Blissey, Bronzong, Celebi, Cresselia, Deoxys-S, Dusknoir, Garchomp, Gengar, Gyarados, Heatran, Heracross, Hippowdon, Infernape, Jirachi, Lucario, Metagross, Salamence, Skarmory, Starmie, Suicune, Swampert, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Weavile, Zapdos.
Do not flame this thread whining about usage, and how Pokemon should only be based on usage statistics. Pokemon is a game and like any game, proper design principles should be applied. Usage is just a metric. So are a lot of other things.
Proper game design philosophy also says that usage is not a viable statistic on its own, and should be coupled with an overall analysis of the pokemon in the metagame. We do it when we whine, why not do it when we work? The netbattle guys did, and RSE was a really well-balanced meta because of it.
So what I and a few others have done is start work on a new format. It is not designed to replace anything, but should appeal to UU players who are tired of a narrow meta, and to OU players who want to try out some of the lower-end stuff that is getting flattened by the extremely centralized upper half of OU.
So I present to you, Format-2. The testing doc is here: 67.15.245.21/emlia/pokemon.html and is a living document. To summarize the restrictions:
Standard Clauses
All Ubers are Banned
The following pokemon are banned:
Azelf, Blissey, Bronzong, Celebi, Cresselia, Deoxys-S, Dusknoir, Garchomp, Gengar, Gyarados, Heatran, Heracross, Hippowdon, Infernape, Jirachi, Lucario, Metagross, Salamence, Skarmory, Starmie, Suicune, Swampert, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Weavile, Zapdos.
Do not flame this thread whining about usage, and how Pokemon should only be based on usage statistics. Pokemon is a game and like any game, proper design principles should be applied. Usage is just a metric. So are a lot of other things.
If you want more variety, I suggest banning Stealth Rock as well. Nothing hurts variety like telling certain types they auto-suck because of one weakness.
Also, you might want to remove Hippowdon from the ban list. Sandstream teams are fun, and without Blissey, special attacks will be more common, and Hippo can't really take many of them, especially SE ones.
Also, you might want to remove Hippowdon from the ban list. Sandstream teams are fun, and without Blissey, special attacks will be more common, and Hippo can't really take many of them, especially SE ones.
Oh yeah great, Gardevoir is gonna be OU this way!
Even with half the OU tier list banned, you'll still have centralization. It seems to me you just want to have a better chance of not getting beaten when you decide to use less powerful pokémon, but had you stopped to think some BL pokémon will be the new centralizing forces this way? And what if I wanna play with Vespiquen/Pachirisu/Delibird/Unown/Lumineon/Cherrim, six pokémon that I actually like? Should I defend the ban of Porygon-Z, Spiritomb, Crobat, Kingdra, Alakazam, Sceptile, etc etc?
If you think the OU metagame is narrow and super-duper-centralized, go and keep playing UU. Actually, according to July statistics, UU is even more centralized than OU...
Even with half the OU tier list banned, you'll still have centralization. It seems to me you just want to have a better chance of not getting beaten when you decide to use less powerful pokémon, but had you stopped to think some BL pokémon will be the new centralizing forces this way? And what if I wanna play with Vespiquen/Pachirisu/Delibird/Unown/Lumineon/Cherrim, six pokémon that I actually like? Should I defend the ban of Porygon-Z, Spiritomb, Crobat, Kingdra, Alakazam, Sceptile, etc etc?
If you think the OU metagame is narrow and super-duper-centralized, go and keep playing UU. Actually, according to July statistics, UU is even more centralized than OU...
The centralization of _UU_ is why this is an issue. I said that in my first post, Arael. I'm including OU pokemon in it simply because I can, without unbalancing it. The goal here is breadth.
If you want to use those Pokemon, drop Vespiquen and play NU (unless those guys keep trying to call Vespiquen NU, but I do believe that would require a large amount of crack).
*sigh* The other discussion of this went better. I'd like testing and ideas, not just people telling me that we don't need a format like this. If you talk to the guys in the UU dev thread, a lot of them hate UU and play BL as a faux-format. BL isn't a tier. Maybe this will fill the role they want?
If you want to use those Pokemon, drop Vespiquen and play NU (unless those guys keep trying to call Vespiquen NU, but I do believe that would require a large amount of crack).
*sigh* The other discussion of this went better. I'd like testing and ideas, not just people telling me that we don't need a format like this. If you talk to the guys in the UU dev thread, a lot of them hate UU and play BL as a faux-format. BL isn't a tier. Maybe this will fill the role they want?
Hippowdon is far too powerful to unban. We did a bit of testing on it and it would really kill the format. What we're debating doing instead is allowing NFEs, letting Hippopotas in. I really want to see that happen personally.
Ladders aren't hard to set up, if I had someplace to host it I'd fire up a server. Until then it's a bunch of people messing around on smogon shoddy, but it's a start! :)
Ladders aren't hard to set up, if I had someplace to host it I'd fire up a server. Until then it's a bunch of people messing around on smogon shoddy, but it's a start! :)
Hmmm....Now that i look at the list i think Infernape could be allowed. Sure, it's a good wall-breaker, but 104/104 offensive stats aren't that strong. And it's 108 speed can be abused. It's fast but just not fast enough.
Why do i say bring Infernape? Some of it's most common counters are allowed. Vaporeon, Milotic, and Tentacruel should be able to handle it easily. Also, if Infernape finishes off one of your weakened pokemon, you can send in Dugtrio to revengekill. Alakazam and Espeon (who im positive will be pretty popular) can come in on Close Comat, Grass Knot, and HP Ice, and threaten a STAB SE Psychic, or can set-up on the switch.
This brings another point...A good ammount of Psychic counters have remained in OU...The Steel-Psychics, Weavile, Blissey, Cress, Dusknoir, etc... are all still OU. The only pokemon that can probably reliable counter them now is Snorlax. That's why i think bringing down Spiritomb would be a great idea, (and it's already being tested anyway) and also bringing down Yanmega. Yanmega wouldn't be too strong i'd say because its Special Defense is very low and with sleep clause it can only sleep one counter, Rest-Talk Snorlax is a good counter. If SR is banned though i think Yanmega should be reconsidered.
Just a few thoughts, make with it what you will....
Why do i say bring Infernape? Some of it's most common counters are allowed. Vaporeon, Milotic, and Tentacruel should be able to handle it easily. Also, if Infernape finishes off one of your weakened pokemon, you can send in Dugtrio to revengekill. Alakazam and Espeon (who im positive will be pretty popular) can come in on Close Comat, Grass Knot, and HP Ice, and threaten a STAB SE Psychic, or can set-up on the switch.
This brings another point...A good ammount of Psychic counters have remained in OU...The Steel-Psychics, Weavile, Blissey, Cress, Dusknoir, etc... are all still OU. The only pokemon that can probably reliable counter them now is Snorlax. That's why i think bringing down Spiritomb would be a great idea, (and it's already being tested anyway) and also bringing down Yanmega. Yanmega wouldn't be too strong i'd say because its Special Defense is very low and with sleep clause it can only sleep one counter, Rest-Talk Snorlax is a good counter. If SR is banned though i think Yanmega should be reconsidered.
Just a few thoughts, make with it what you will....
Really? It seems like a few good Ice Beams/Surfs/Grass Knots would do wonders on it. I mean, Ludicolo would kick its ass, and it's not doing much to Vaporeon or Slowbro. Heck, just about any Grass type can sit there, take EQs, and Grass Knot it to death.
Anyways, I don't see why NFEs wouldn't be allowed. No pre-evos of things currently on the ban list are particularly threatening, except maybe Dusclops. All the rest have stats that are rather lol, and hippopotas allows for sandstream teams. Only problem is that Hippopotas's stats are absolute crap, and the benefits of sand stream might be outweighed by having essentially 5 pokemon.
And I stand by my opposition to Stealth Rock. That move needs to go. Plus, no Stealth Rock nerfs Hippo, as it has one fewer thing it can do.
EDIT: and to the above, ninjask can still outspeed and kill psychics with X-Scissor. Heck, with its speed, it could outspeed ScarfZam, and certainly can do so after one protect. Any fast U-turners can handle them, too. Scizor resists Psychic and can really only be OHKOd by HP Fire, and Houndoom poses a significant threat to those without Focus Blast. I think Psychic types are covered. Also, Spiritomb and Yanmega aren't on the ban list, so unless I'm missing something, they're viable, too.
Anyways, I don't see why NFEs wouldn't be allowed. No pre-evos of things currently on the ban list are particularly threatening, except maybe Dusclops. All the rest have stats that are rather lol, and hippopotas allows for sandstream teams. Only problem is that Hippopotas's stats are absolute crap, and the benefits of sand stream might be outweighed by having essentially 5 pokemon.
And I stand by my opposition to Stealth Rock. That move needs to go. Plus, no Stealth Rock nerfs Hippo, as it has one fewer thing it can do.
EDIT: and to the above, ninjask can still outspeed and kill psychics with X-Scissor. Heck, with its speed, it could outspeed ScarfZam, and certainly can do so after one protect. Any fast U-turners can handle them, too. Scizor resists Psychic and can really only be OHKOd by HP Fire, and Houndoom poses a significant threat to those without Focus Blast. I think Psychic types are covered. Also, Spiritomb and Yanmega aren't on the ban list, so unless I'm missing something, they're viable, too.
^BL not being a tier and being faux tier are different things. Don' t mix up the two.
On another note, I think the suspect list should be up in the OP.
I still think that Swampert should be allowed on the basis that bulky Grassers are going to be far more common (yay Shaymin/Torterra), and it just joins the volume of walls that lack auto-heal. What kind of opposition would it face against its inclusion?
On another note, I think the suspect list should be up in the OP.
I still think that Swampert should be allowed on the basis that bulky Grassers are going to be far more common (yay Shaymin/Torterra), and it just joins the volume of walls that lack auto-heal. What kind of opposition would it face against its inclusion?
Oh, if we ban SR, Yanmega is _gone_. Also, you're forgetting Haunter and Chansey, petrie. Haunter doesn't seem like a serious threat, Chansey...might actually be a good balancing factor.
Honestly...a lot of my crew is pretty anti-swampert, it's got great stats and an excellent offensive movepool for a wall. Lacking instant recovery is a significant point towards its inclusion, though. Honestly...I'm not sure. Could I get some brief, strong arguments for its inclusion? If there's something concrete I can write down, I will move it to Test.
As for spiritomb and yanmega, I've heard a lot of arguments both ways as it stands now. I think I want to how some people handle them in actual battles before I make a call...but you may be right, Yanmega may be too dangerous.
Honestly...a lot of my crew is pretty anti-swampert, it's got great stats and an excellent offensive movepool for a wall. Lacking instant recovery is a significant point towards its inclusion, though. Honestly...I'm not sure. Could I get some brief, strong arguments for its inclusion? If there's something concrete I can write down, I will move it to Test.
As for spiritomb and yanmega, I've heard a lot of arguments both ways as it stands now. I think I want to how some people handle them in actual battles before I make a call...but you may be right, Yanmega may be too dangerous.
Chansey isn't really that bad, as it's only source of damage is Stoss. 5 base attack and 35 base special attack means it can take special hits, Wish, and AT, but that's it. Any ghost type can sit there in front of it with impunity, as can pretty much anything that can make 101 HP subs. Sub Punch anything with 100 or more base HP will destroy it, and it's a huge liability to get trapped by a BP team. It's good, but not that good.
Haunter has almost no defenses. 45/45/55 means any priority move it's not immune to should do it in. 50/115/90 attacking stats means it's going to have to go special, so it should be fairly predictable. And 90 base speed means lots outspeed it.
As for SR, I'd gladly lose Yanmega in order to have Articuno, Cloyster, Regice, Moltres, Arcanine, Ninetales, etc, etc actually be resonably viable.
Haunter has almost no defenses. 45/45/55 means any priority move it's not immune to should do it in. 50/115/90 attacking stats means it's going to have to go special, so it should be fairly predictable. And 90 base speed means lots outspeed it.
As for SR, I'd gladly lose Yanmega in order to have Articuno, Cloyster, Regice, Moltres, Arcanine, Ninetales, etc, etc actually be resonably viable.
This is ridiculously pointless. You're arbitrarily banning a number of Pokemon that have been shown to be balanced in order just to use some other ones. Play UU if you want to do that.
- Status