Gen 5 Offensive?

At a Glance:

386.png
381.png
482.png
445.png
212.png
640.png


Intro:

My goal was to make a team centered around three pokemon, two dragons, and one pokemon who i enjoyed playing as. Those three pokemon would serve as the offensive core of my team, with my lead and the other remaining pokemon supporting those 3 offensively and defensively.

I wanted to try something to counter weather teams and their sweepers, and to also be able to form a team with good flow and synergy. I realized that in order to counter weather teams i would have to either run an anti-metagame team, or manage to run a bulky offensive team in order to take the hits of the major sweepers, and hit back with powerful attacks.

I compiled a list of my favorite/bulky-ish pokemon and compiled this team:

Team Building:

So I wanted to get my 3 pokemon core set-up first. I looked immediatly at Dragonite and wanted to have him in a team with salamence in order to show his worth, but that went wrong. Next i tried Overconfidence-Scarf-Salamence with Scarf/Specs Latias but Salamence had too many exploitable weaknesses, especially with doryuuzu around (ice shard priority). I then tried Scarf Latias and Scarf Garchomp, who worked very well together. I tried looking for the last pokemon of my core, and i immediatly thought of Azelf. I chose a Expert Belt physical set for him.

380.png
482.png
445.png


Next i started looking at different RMT's until i saw this one :

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84396

The set for tyranitar and Scizor intrigued me, and i applied them to my team, Scizor can easily set up from many pokemon that think it could wall Scizor (Nattorei for example) and i just set up on them, and KO them with a well placed Bullet punch, often times sweeping 3-4 poke's before dying. Tyranitar seemed like a suitable lead even though i was hesitant to using a weather team.

248.png
380.png
482.png
445.png
212.png


Next i wanted a bulky pokemon who could dish out damage, and absorb some damage too. Being at a loss of pokemon i just chose blissey with counter.

248.png
380.png
482.png
445.png
212.png
242.png


Due To Rates my team has changed to:

386.png
381.png
482.png
445.png
212.png
640.png


Team:

386.png

Deoxys - S @ Life Orb
Pressure
252 HP / 252 ATK / 4 Spd
Sassy
- Fire Punch
- Super Power
- Spikes
- Stealth rock

A suggestion from Judas DN:

"You may wonder, why run maximum HP with Life orb? Well seeing as people rarely use Deoxys-S as a lead anymore 252 HP is a much more usefull investment in nearly every situation. The goal of this set is to set up entry hazards first using it's above average bulkiness, destroying any Tyranitar/Scizor/Nattorei that dears to switch in. Later in the game this set can function as a reliable revenge killer with it's excellent speed stat. "

That basically sums up Deoxys, I have thought of replacing Spikes for Extreeme Speed, or another attacking move. Extreeme Speed would be there for priority (too much priority can't be a problem right?) or i would run Ice Punch, to take out lead dragons (Dragonite, SD Chomp etc.)

381.png

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Levitate
6 hp / 252 satk / 252 spd
Timid
-Surf
-Draco Meteor
-Grass Knot
-Hp Fire

Suggested by Judas DN and V0x, My Latias set was outclassed by Latios.

I run max speed + A choice scarf in order to use Lati as a scout. He manages to come in multiple times in a game, and out speeds multiple threats like Scarf Chomp. Surf, DM, and HP Fire provide perfect type coverage, giving Latios a move to use in almost every situation. DM hits like a truck on steroids and is mostly used as my near end-game sweeping move due to the SpAtk drop. Grass Knot does more damage to Tyranitar, a common switch in, and other Bulky ground / water ? Rock types. Hp Fire of course is for Nattorei, who would otherwise wall Lati.

482.png

Azelf @ Expert Belt
Levitate
4 hp/ 252 SAtk / 252 spd
timid
-U-turn
-Flamethrower
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic

Godly type coverage. Azelf is the secondary scout of my team mostly due to how frail it is, and the fact that it normally cant stay out very long. I tried to base my team around the sweep of this pokemon so i've tried my best to give it teamates that support it. The main problem would be that its one STAB move has almost know application unless im fighting a pokemon that resists Tbolt + Flamethrowe. The elemental beams provide great coverage, hitting nattorei, pringles, skarmory, etc. for super effective damage that is further boosted by Expert Belt. U-turn is mostly for enemy tyranitars, it doesn't get the KO but weakens them enough for chomp or lati to finish him off. I went for timid mostly due to the fact that i dont know what pokemon to outrun and i figured it might as well outrun all that it can.

445.png

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Sand Veil
4 hp / 252 atk / 252 spd
jolly
-Outrage
-Dragon Claw
-Earth Quake
-Brick Break

Nothing new here standard EV spread, once again used Jolly because i don't know what it should outrun. I ran both Outrage and Dragon Claw so that it could weaken enemies early in the game, then sweep with outrage. EQ and BB were fillers, with earthquake being used to hurt steels and brick break for baloon steels.

212.png

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician
240 hp / 16 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

Quite a godly Scizor if you ask me ( of course this was copied ). Surprisingly specially bulky, allowing it to roost stall moderatly strong special sweepers without a fire attack. It easily grabs multiple swords dances in a game, and sweeps with bullet punch and bug bite. 1 vs. 1 Scizor can take on Dory (at least the variants i've played) and survive an earthquake in order to bug bite, and then BP for the win. My only problem with him is that i feel like he tends to be lackluster in the beginning of a match, but that just might be me playing him wierdly.

640.png

Birijion @ Life orb
Natural Cure
4 hp / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid
-Giga Drain
-Calm Mind
-Focus Blast
-HP Ice

Suggested by Judas DN and Haunter. Judas recommended i replace Blissey with Birijion because Blissey was dead weight, and Haunter said that i have a lucario weakness that would be remedied by taking Judas's advice.

Judas DN - "Performs very well against both rain and Sandstorm teams which emphases your goal to make this an anti-weather team and provides some special bulk to your team that can hit hard as well. Also it gives you a reliable check against Doryuuzu a pokemon you claim to have a lot of trouble against."

I compare Birijion to Bulk Up Roobushin a lot, being able to boost SAtk and SDef is great, and lets me use her as a Blissey who can actually hit people. She (He/It ?) wrecks stuff up with 1 CM, and checks Doryuuzu with HP Ice. Focus Blast hasn't been unreliable yet, but i am hesitant in keeping it. Giga Drain works similar to Roobushin's Drain punch, healing her and allowing her to continue her sweep.


Threat List

will post them as i find threats and how to deal with them.

Obviously bad people in Red, Easy People in Green, Threats which can be a bit troublesome are black.

059MS.png
Arcanine -

640MS.png
Birijion -

257MS.png
Blaziken -

242MS.png
Blissey -

642MS.png
Borutorosu -

286MS.png
Breloom -

437MS.png
Bronzong -

593MS.png
Burungeru -

491MS.png
Darkrai -

386MS.png
Deoxys -

386AMS.png
Deoxys-A -

386DMS.png
Deoxys-D -

386SMS.png
Deoxys-S -

530MS.png
Doryuuzu -

547MS.png
Erufuun -

196MS.png
Espeon -

205MS.png
Forretress -

445MS.png
Garchomp -

472MS.png
Gliscor -

130MS.png
Gyarados -

485MS.png
Heatran -

555MS.png
Hihidaruma -

450MS.png
Hippowdon -

392MS.png
Infernape -

385MS.png
Jirachi -

135MS.png
Jolteon -

141MS.png
Kabutops -

230MS.png
Kingdra -

620MS.png
Kojondo -

646MS.png
Kyuremu -

380MS.png
Latias -

381MS.png
Latios -

448MS.png
Lucario -

272MS.png
Ludicolo -

068MS.png
Machamp -

462MS.png
Magnezone -

376MS.png
Metagross -

598MS.png
Nattorei -

038MS.png
Ninetales -

224MS.png
Octillery -

612MS.png
Onokusu -

186MS.png
Politoed -

233MS.png
Porygon2 -

645MS.png
Randorusu -

579MS.png
Rankurusu -

534MS.png
Roobushin -

479WMS.png
Rotom-W -

373MS.png
Salamence -

635MS.png
Sazandora -

212MS.png
Scizor -

609MS.png
Shandera -

492SMS.png
Shaymin-S -

227MS.png
Skarmory -

121MS.png
Starmie -

073MS.png
Tentacruel -

639MS.png
Terakion -

248MS.png
Tyranitar -

637MS.png
Urugamosu -

134MS.png
Vaporeon -

003MS.png
Venusaur -

145MS.png
Zapdos -

571MS.png
Zoroaak -

560MS.png
Zuruzukin -

Iconics THread here : http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84396



-
-
-

so thats my team. Thanks for the rate!
 
Why not use scarf Latios instead, as it is more powerful and it doesn't seem you are walling with latias. 20 more base spA is quite a lot, and all the moves you're using on latias latios can learn.
 
Hi shadow0x0cloud

I'm going to say that i agree with V0x sentiment, Latios fits the role of a Draco Meteor Scarfer much better than Latias does. The only reason ever to consider Latias over Latios is to run bulky CM sets.

Why run a physical minded set on Azelf? Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower provides exactly the same coverage but hit much harder. My guess is that you wanted U-turn to hit harder however U-turn isn't really meant do ditch out much damage but rather to keep offensive momentum. In other words run the fellowing set:

Azelf@Expert Belt
252Spatt, 252Spe, 6Att
Naive
Flamethrower
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
U-turn

Trust me despite the lack of attack investment, U-turn will still do enough damage to hurt your opponents considerably.

About Blissey, like you said it doesn't really belong in a offensive team like yours. Perhaps consider running a CM Birijion? Performs very well against both rain and Sandstorm teams which emphases your goal to make this an anti-weather team and provides some special bulk to your team that can hit hard as well. Also it gives you a reliable check against Doryuuzu a pokemon you claim to have a lot of trouble against.

That's all i have to say about this team, if you have any more questions don't hesitate to leave me a VM.

Good Luck!
 
thanks judas and vox, i was actually testing scarf latios and it worked much better for me. i originally went for latias because she had more bulk, but latios can take a few hits. you right about azelf, wasnt paying attention to the fact that i was running an inferior set. do you mind posting a set for birijion, i haven't seen any moves i liked on him, but you may be seeing something im not
 
thanks judas and vox, i was actually testing scarf latios and it worked much better for me. i originally went for latias because she had more bulk, but latios can take a few hits. you right about azelf, wasnt paying attention to the fact that i was running an inferior set. do you mind posting a set for birijion, i haven't seen any moves i liked on him, but you may be seeing something im not
I'm not sure why you 'don't like' birijion's moveset consdierng it carries excellent synergie amongst it's moves, i'm pretty sure the set below will function very well in your team.

Birijion@Life Orb
252Spatt, 252Spe
Timid Nature
Giga Drain
Focus Blast
HP Ice
Calm Mind.

Give it a try, i'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed
 
i appreciate the link hauner, thank you. ill try that set out the moment i get a chance to go on po, it sounds nice though, reminds me of a specially based bulk up roobushin.

question, i was wondering about a new pokemon to run over tyranitar like a hazard lead, or a pure offensive lead to give me some helpful offensive momentum. i understand all pokemon can be leads, but if tyran isnt in the lead position, he acts as dead weight.
 
check the set here. Also, as far as I know Azelf doesn't learn ice beam. And note that you need a solid Lucario counter as it can give you massive troubles if it gets a SD (not really hard with Latias and Blissey on the team).
My apologises on the Ice Beam Azelf suggestion, apparently i've been confusing it's movepool with Mesprit's which does have it. Perhaps in that case Psychic would be the most reliable replacement, to ensure considerable damage against those who aren't weak to one of it's current moves.

I disagree with your Solid Lucario counter suggestion however, his team is offensively built which means that check's will suffice in most cases. Garchomp fits this categorie and Birijion will do so as well if he replaces Blissey with it. Also Lucario is very uncommon these days, as such it's not worth sacrificing team performance.

question, i was wondering about a new pokemon to run over tyranitar like a hazard lead, or a pure offensive lead to give me some helpful offensive momentum. i understand all pokemon can be leads, but if tyran isnt in the lead position, he acts as dead weight.
Deoxys-E is can run entry Hazards and be a reliable revenge killer later in the game, i'm pretty sure the fellowing set could be an excellent replacement for Tyranitar

Deoxys-E@Life Orb
252HP, 252Attack
Adamant Nature
Superpower
Fire Punch
Stealth Rock
Spikes

You may wonder, why run maximum HP with Life orb? Well seeing as people rarely use Deoxys-E as a lead anymore 252 HP is a much more usefull investment in nearly every situation. The goal of this set is to set up entry hazards first using it's above average bulkiness, destroying any Tyranitar/Scizor/Nattorei that dears to switch in. Later in the game this set can function as a reliable revenge killer with it's excellent speed stat.

EDIT: Yes Deoxys-E is the fastest of the four, though i agree Deoxys-S is a much better name now. Deoxys-E refers to Emerald making it a very outdated name indeed.
 
which one is E again? the fastest one?

Edit: Nevermind. Good ol' google.

I love Latios + Scizor, they both cover each other nicely. Deoxys gave me offensive momentum i wanted, along with being able to get SR and spikes up. Birijion is actually stronger than i thought, KO'ing a few pokemon with only 1 CM. I'll edit the OP when i have chance, appreciate those helpful rated Judas
 
My apologises on the Ice Beam Azelf suggestion, apparently i've been confusing it's movepool with Mesprit's which does have it. Perhaps in that case Psychic would be the most reliable replacement, to ensure considerable damage against those who aren't weak to one of it's current moves.

I disagree with your Solid Lucario counter suggestion however, his team is offensively built which means that check's will suffice in most cases. Garchomp fits this categorie and Birijion will do so as well if he replaces Blissey with it. Also Lucario is very uncommon these days, as such it's not worth sacrificing team performance.

Garchomp takes around 70% from a +2 ES and can't switch into close combat. It may check Lucario once, but if you mispredict it's a goner. Call it a counter or a check, the point stands as the team is very weak to that threat considering the amount of opportunities Lucario has to set up.

Replacing Blissey wirh Birijon would probably alleviate the problem as Blissey was the main set up fodder, but it was not part of the team when I made the suggestion (and still isn't in the OP at the moment).

And until we have official stats we can't say what's common and what's not. I've faced many Lucario on the ladder, though they tend to go mostly special because of the usefulness of vacuum wave.
 
@ Haunter, I see what you mean, with Bissey being set up fodder, i haen't had the time to edit the OP yet because i haven't had enough time to do so. Was replacing Blissey with Birijion the only thing needed inorder to stop Luke, or do you have a suggestion for another pokemon
 
What the hell? 252/0 Deo-N is far from bulky. I strongly suggest max speed/attack.

Here's the calcs using a certain kind of Scizor's CB Bullet Punch:

vs. 0/0 Deo-N = 107.5% - 127%
vs. 252/0 Deo-N = 85.2% - 100.7%

With the latter one, it's a really large chance to KO after LO. And keep in mind this isn't max attack Scizor.

Using Roobushin's CB Mach Punch:

vs. 0/0 Deo-N = 41.1% - 48.5%
vs. 252/0 Deo-N = 32.6% - 38.5%

Still a 3HKO either way. As far as I can see there is no purpose in not maxing speed on Deoxys-N.
 
Garchomp takes around 70% from a +2 ES and can't switch into close combat. It may check Lucario once, but if you mispredict it's a goner. Call it a counter or a check, the point stands as the team is very weak to that threat considering the amount of opportunities Lucario has to set up.

Replacing Blissey wirh Birijon would probably alleviate the problem as Blissey was the main set up fodder, but it was not part of the team when I made the suggestion (and still isn't in the OP at the moment).

And until we have official stats we can't say what's common and what's not. I've faced many Lucario on the ladder, though they tend to go mostly special because of the usefulness of vacuum wave.
In Generation IV i would have agreed with you, considering Lucario was a consistent top tier pokemon at that time. However in Generation V there are so many extremely powerfull sweepers that it is simply impossible to have 2 checks against any set up sweeper. Replacing one of his pokemon with a more reliable Lucario check will just make his team weaker against another set up sweeper.

When reading through the 50 teams i've written down during my ladder session i see only 2 Lucario's(both from the same person). Of course 50 battles are not enough to get accurate statistics of the entire metagame but it does show a trend in which it is clearly not a top 10 pokemon anymore.(also on PO's Wifi statistics Lucario is 37th in usage another signal that may indicate it's fall in usage on smogon)

Although, i suppose this is no longer a problem now that he has replaced Blissey with a pokemon that is not Lucario set up bait.

What the hell? 252/0 Deo-N is far from bulky. I strongly suggest max speed/attack.
The sprite is probably confusing but it's actually a Deoxys-S.
 
PO's stats are quite irrelevant. But yes, without Lucario's premier set up bait, there's no more need for a dedicated counter\check as now it can really set up only on a -2 SpA Latios without risking a 1-2hko.
 
What the hell? 252/0 Deo-N is far from bulky. I strongly suggest max speed/attack.

Here's the calcs using a certain kind of Scizor's CB Bullet Punch:

vs. 0/0 Deo-N = 107.5% - 127%
vs. 252/0 Deo-N = 85.2% - 100.7%

With the latter one, it's a really large chance to KO after LO. And keep in mind this isn't max attack Scizor.

Using Roobushin's CB Mach Punch:

vs. 0/0 Deo-N = 41.1% - 48.5%
vs. 252/0 Deo-N = 32.6% - 38.5%

Still a 3HKO either way. As far as I can see there is no purpose in not maxing speed on Deoxys-N.

Sorry about that could not find a Deoxys-s sprite on PE2K.com

EDIT: Added CS Randorosu as a threat. His U-Turn just kills, and there is nothing i can do to it before it kills a few members of my team. Garchomp doesn't really help because with the team viewer, the opponent just waits until Chomp is dead or weakened.

Another threat is Bulky SS teams. Nuttre walls a lot of stuff if CS randorosu manages to kill off Latios or if Latios dies by Pursuit trap
 
you already have a revenge killer so why not give latios a choice specs. It's draco meteors are deadly with a choice specs, no really they're intense. I think it's kind of close to the power of kingdra's specs hydro pump in the rain. Kingdra's specs hyrdro pump in the rain 2HKO's standard blissey with 3 layers of spikes, I tested it.
 
if i were to change lati, i would switch him to a non choiced expert belt variant. lati also helps me outrun scarf chomp. and also i have noticed that deoxys does not really last long, it usually dies after killing the opponents lead. so i wouldn't consider that as my RK, that would go to scizor, but he unfortunatly has no way of dealing with dory in the sand.

any other team suggestions?
 
Back
Top