Pet Mod [Gen 8] More Balanced Hackmons v2 (NatDex BH)

I agree with Anaconja on the Normalize point thoroughly. These mons are meant to be obscenely strong to the point where they can only be countered by Melmetal and Ghosts (Giratina and the far rarer Dusclops). Running another item just to hit these mons just makes the mon lose tons of power to hit like one mon in the tier. Not to mention PHeal is just a better setup sweeper thanks to great longevity and a status immunity, coupled with a Spectral immunity.

Also I have more sets

:ss/groudon-primal:
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Fire Lash
- Precipice Blades
- Shore Up

So this set basically aims to pressure literally anything that isnt PSea/Flash Fire Cele I guess. Basically you trap shit, then wear them down with Fire Lash so that eventually Gira and ZyGod takes loads from Precipice Blades. I have no idea how to improof this tbh outside of literally FF Steela and Prank Gira/Zyg-C (you haze the boost) so it might not work.


:ss/marshadow:
Marshadow @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Close Combat
- ???

Physical MGar. Improofs itself. Not much to say here if you’ve played regular BH but this gets around stuff like Scales PrimOgre and has Spectral for Giratina.

:ss/zeraora:
Zeraora @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Bolt Beak
- Taunt / Precipice Blades
- Teleport

Pretty wack gimmick tbh. The idea was to combine last gen’s AVeil Zera with the CB Bolt Beak variant to make a pseudo breaker/supporter, but it fails against grounds in general. PBlades dents PDon but I dont know if that can make this viable.

:ss/arceus-steel:
Arceus-Steel @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce / Prankster / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Destiny Bond
- Teleport
- Recover

Here’s better Registeel basically. Pretty strong utility mon overall whose only bad point is ofc really high Speed, which is somewhat circumvented with Teleport. Idk what to run on this since its about as variable as Registeel was last gen. FF improofs V-create Pixi Diancie, MBounce is good utility and Prank generally stops setup sweepers.
 
Arceus-Ice @ Life Orb
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Obstruct
- Extreme Speed
- Bolt Beak
- Filler

Obstruct to lower defense, then espeed. Bolt Beak is strong coverage. Not much else to say.
 
I will save this thread with L’Oréal to boot.
I agree with Anaconja on the Normalize point thoroughly. These mons are meant to be obscenely strong to the point where they can only be countered by Melmetal and Ghosts (Giratina and the far rarer Dusclops). Running another item just to hit these mons just makes the mon lose tons of power to hit like one mon in the tier. Not to mention PHeal is just a better setup sweeper thanks to great longevity and a status immunity, coupled with a Spectral immunity.

Also I have more sets

:ss/groudon-primal:
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Fire Lash
- Precipice Blades
- Shore Up

So this set basically aims to pressure literally anything that isnt PSea/Flash Fire Cele I guess. Basically you trap shit, then wear them down with Fire Lash so that eventually Gira and ZyGod takes loads from Precipice Blades. I have no idea how to improof this tbh outside of literally FF Steela and Prank Gira/Zyg-C (you haze the boost) so it might not work.


:ss/marshadow:
Marshadow @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Close Combat
- ???

Physical MGar. Improofs itself. Not much to say here if you’ve played regular BH but this gets around stuff like Scales PrimOgre and has Spectral for Giratina.

:ss/zeraora:
Zeraora @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Bolt Beak
- Taunt / Precipice Blades
- Teleport

Pretty wack gimmick tbh. The idea was to combine last gen’s AVeil Zera with the CB Bolt Beak variant to make a pseudo breaker/supporter, but it fails against grounds in general. PBlades dents PDon but I dont know if that can make this viable.

:ss/arceus-steel:
Arceus-Steel @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce / Prankster / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Destiny Bond
- Teleport
- Recover

Here’s better Registeel basically. Pretty strong utility mon overall whose only bad point is ofc really high Speed, which is somewhat circumvented with Teleport. Idk what to run on this since its about as variable as Registeel was last gen. FF improofs V-create Pixi Diancie, MBounce is good utility and Prank generally stops setup sweepers.
Cool sets.

My point for Slaking stands though.

Unlike Facade, Fishous Rend doesn’t rely on its item, in the event Knock Off removes Toxic Orb (say they underspeed your slow-pivot switch-in). Multi-Attack might be vulnerable, but it can still threaten with its STAB.

Fishous Rend’s 45.6% higher damage output, means 1 Shift Gear boosted Facade is about the same as an unboosted Normalize Fishous Rend, allowing Normalize to hit hard turn 1 without relying on Toxic Orb to trigger, and without accumualting Shift Gears.

Normalize not only lives without fear of Normalize Entrainment, but even just Core Enforcer, as the risk of losing the ability is a detriment that turns Poison Heal into compounding Poison damage.

Further, Multi-Attack deals 1/3 more than Spectral Thief, and doesn’t get blocked by Normal-types, preventing foes from trying to get a free switch-in for Ghost-types on Facade or Normal-types on Spectral Thief. This allows you to select Multi-Attack to at least hit either of them neutrally.

You omitted Dusk-Mane/Solgaleo, and any Normalize Ghosts (Gengar-Mega, Dragapult) to count when Multi-Attack (Dark Memory) makes a difference. What about Aegislash?

Eternatus
+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 523-616 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 358-423 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yveltal
+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 475-561 (104.1 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 358-423 (78.5 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dusk-Mane
+1 252+ Atk Slaking Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 338-398 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

VS

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 252-298 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
PH needs to boost Atk by +1 to catch up to Normalize on its STAB, while +1 Atk Normalize can 1HKO much more, including stuff I didn’t list such as MMX, while MMX can live +1 Facade, and KO Slaking in return, with say an Adaptability set.

PH is for longevity, I will give you that, but I feel Normalize has unrecognized merit, as it packs the necessary power to score the 1HKOs it needs to, in order to sweep after just a single boost. As for Shift Gear Vs Choice Band, Shift Gear lets it outspeed opponents, not only for Fishous Rend, but so it can sweep and not get forced out by MMX, Zamazenta-Crowned, etc. Lastly, you can always use Recover on Normalize Shift Gear Slaking, allowing for longevity without fear of ability removal/Choice Lock.
 
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I will save this thread with L’Oréal to boot.
Cool sets.

My point for Slaking stands though.

Unlike Facade, Fishous Rend doesn’t rely on its item, in the event Knock Off removes Toxic Orb (say they underspeed your slow-pivot switch-in).

Fishous Rend’s 45.6% higher damage output, means 1 Shift Gear boosted Facade is about the same as an unboosted Normalize Fishous Rend, allowing Normalize to hit hard turn 1 without relying on Toxic Orb to trigger, and without accumualting Shift Gears.

Normalize not only lives without fear of Normalize Entrainment, but even just Core Enforcer, as the risk of losing the ability is a detriment that turns Poison Heal into compounding Poison damage.

Further, Multi-Attack deals 1/3 more than Spectral Thief, and doesn’t get blocked by Normal-types, preventing foes from trying to get a free switch-in for Ghost-types on Facade or Normal-types on Spectral Thief. This allows you to select Multi-Attack to at least hit either of them neutrally.

You omitted Dusk-Mane/Solgaleo, and any Normalize Ghosts (Gengar-Mega, Dragapult) to count when Multi-Attack (Dark Memory) makes a difference. What about Aegislash?

Eternatus
+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 523-616 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 358-423 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yveltal
+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 475-561 (104.1 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 358-423 (78.5 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dusk-Mane
+1 252+ Atk Slaking Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 338-398 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

VS

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 252-298 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Yeah, Normalize is still a solid ability for Slaking, but Poison Heal isn’t exactly some pushover ability. A slow pivot switchin getting undersped is impossible if you run Teleport, and if you aren’t running it and fear a Knock Off, lead with your PH mon and click your protection move. Facade sets have a reliable recovery on top of their obscene power, don’t have to rely on an item to hit ghost types (which is more likely to present an issue than not getting a poison on your Poison Heal mon), and don’t have to rely on going first to maximize damage output (in the case of using Fishious Rend, V-Create and other powerful moves have their own niches and disadvantages). This is important in the matchup against Prankster mons, who can go first on a whim. Additionally, while both sets are handled relatively well by Fur Coat Cotton Guard Zamazenta (a set I personally run and have seen others run in Gen 8 BH, even if Fur Coat doesn’t boost Body Press in power), Facade sets can theoretically run Fighting or Ground coverage to hit Steels, while the only option Normalize sets really have is Multi-Attack, but it comes at the cost of not being able to hit ghosts. Ability deactivation is definitely a good point, but it isn’t invalidating Poison Heal sets by itself, and while Normalize sets aren’t invalidated by it, I would personally rather run P-Heal Normals over Normalize Normals, 9 times out of 10.
 
Yeah, Normalize is still a solid ability for Slaking, but Poison Heal isn’t exactly some pushover ability. A slow pivot switchin getting undersped is impossible if you run Teleport, and if you aren’t running it and fear a Knock Off, lead with your PH mon and click your protection move. Facade sets have a reliable recovery on top of their obscene power, don’t have to rely on an item to hit ghost types (which is more likely to present an issue than not getting a poison on your Poison Heal mon), and don’t have to rely on going first to maximize damage output (in the case of using Fishious Rend, V-Create and other powerful moves have their own niches and disadvantages). This is important in the matchup against Prankster mons, who can go first on a whim. Additionally, while both sets are handled relatively well by Fur Coat Cotton Guard Zamazenta (a set I personally run and have seen others run in Gen 8 BH, even if Fur Coat doesn’t boost Body Press in power), Facade sets can theoretically run Fighting or Ground coverage to hit Steels, while the only option Normalize sets really have is Multi-Attack, but it comes at the cost of not being able to hit ghosts. Ability deactivation is definitely a good point, but it isn’t invalidating Poison Heal sets by itself, and while Normalize sets aren’t invalidated by it, I would personally rather run P-Heal Normals over Normalize Normals, 9 times out of 10.
The protection move forces a limited 4 moveslot syndrome, which is another disadvantage. Also, you have to assume the Teleport Pokemon can come in safely, and then take the hit on the turn it uses Teleport.

Sometimes people will pack U-Turn, especially on Pokemon with high Attack that they want to hit the foe hard with while switching.

I don’t think it’s a pushover, but I also don’t think it is strictly better, either. Core Enforcer, a strong and common utility move, punishes Normalize much less than it punishes Poison Heal. Fishous Rend can be used for more coverage if it gets hit by Core Enforcer (such as hitting Tyranitar-Mega super effectively, a Pokemon that resisted its other moves), and is still 170 base power.

Oftentimes it’s the Ghosts and Steels that pack Prankster, so Multi-Attack would have been a good choice in either scenario. Plus, Normalize STAB Fishous Rend is 153 Base power - if going second, so it is literally equal to STAB Return. It’s still not very weak.

Facade is strong, but 210 Base Power on a move that is never super effective leads to frequent 2HKOs, since Pokemon can max HP and Defense even if they are not a wall. Normalize Fishous Rend is like a free Choice Band since the base power of 306 is almost 50% stronger.

Sure Priority Prankster exists, but Multi-Attack handles Giratina (a possible 2HKO at +0), and I would like to think your teammates would have focused on eliminating Prankster Haze before you send out a Set-Up sweeper in the first place. So does Giratina do worse against PH Slaking? No, it does better because it usually packs Core Enforcer, and takes less from Spectral Thief. There are other Prankster users, but they have to not be Steel, Rock (Eviolite Rhydon) or Ghost to be better, and must lack Core Enforcer. Otherwise Multi-Attack Dark out damages resisted/Immune Facade.

Multi-Attack can still perform fine with Dark Memory, against what I assume is not Crowned Zamazenta? (You didn’t add the Crowned form -C)

If it wants to not bother with Recover, it could just use Normalize Spectral Thief to gain the Cotton Guard boosts, basically disarming Zamazenta and just attacking next turn.

+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta: 123-145 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO

+

+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta: 229-271 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think you did a good job bringing up counter points, my prior post was mostly a point on how Normalize can be used without a Choice Band, and still have its merits against PH and Choice Band sets, without making any of the other 2 necessarily better, or worse, they all have merit overall.
 
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The protection move forces a limited 4 moveslot syndrome, which is another disadvantage. Also, you have to assume the Teleport Pokemon can come in safely, and then take the hit on the turn it uses Teleport.

Sometimes people will pack U-Turn, especially on Pokemon with high Attack that they want to hit the foe hard with while switching.

I don’t think it’s a pushover, but I also don’t think it is strictly better, either. Core Enforcer, a strong and common utility move, punishes Normalize much less than it punishes Poison Heal. Fishous Rend can be used for more coverage if it gets hit by Core Enforcer (such as hitting Tyranitar-Mega super effectively, a Pokemon that resisted its other moves), and is still 170 base power.

Oftentimes it’s the Ghosts and Steels that pack Prankster, so Multi-Attack would have been a good choice in either scenario. Plus, Normalize STAB Fishous Rend is 153 Base power - if going second, so it is literally equal to STAB Return. It’s still not very weak.

Facade is strong, but 210 Base Power on a move that is never super effective leads to frequent 2HKOs, since Pokemon can max HP and Defense even if they are not a wall. Normalize Fishous Rend is like a free Choice Band since the base power of 306 is almost 50% stronger.

Sure Priority Prankster exists, but Multi-Attack handles Giratina (a possible 2HKO at +0), and I would like to think your teammates would have focused on eliminating Prankster Haze before you send out a Set-Up sweeper in the first place. So does Giratina do worse against PH Slaking? No, it does better because it usually packs Core Enforcer, and takes less from Spectral Thief. There are other Prankster users, but they have to not be Steel, Rock (Eviolite Rhydon) or Ghost to be better, and must lack Core Enforcer. Otherwise Multi-Attack Dark out damages resisted/Immune Facade.

Multi-Attack can still perform fine with Dark Memory, against what I assume is not Crowned Zamazenta? (You didn’t add the Crowned form -C)

If it wants to not bother with Recover, it could just use Normalize Spectral Thief to gain the Cotton Guard boosts, basically disarming Zamazenta and just attacking next turn.

+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta: 123-145 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO

+

+1 252+ Atk Normalize Slaking Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta: 229-271 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think you did a good job bringing up counter points, my prior post was mostly a point on how Normalize can be used without a Choice Band, and still have its merits against PH and Choice Band sets, without making any of the other 2 necessarily better, or worse, they all have merit overall.
The statement above is true, but the set I use has Strength Sap, which removes your boost and heals Zamazenta-Crowned to full (also, I did mean Crowned, which is why I brought up EQ, sorry for the miscommunication). I run regular Zamazenta with Ice Scales and Knock Off, which as I stated before, the latter is more likely to be a problem for Normalize sets. Also, dealing with Prankster Haze users isn’t always possible. Fishious Rend is always going to be weaker on stuff like Prankster Yveltal. Normalize Spectral Thief is also non-effective on Marshadow, who takes a Multi-Attack at +1, uses Shift Gear itself (or SD if it’s running Triage), and takes you down.

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Marshadow: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Slaking Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Marshadow: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 452-534 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Marshadow Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 414-488 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Compared to P-Heal Slaking:

+1 252 Atk Slaking Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Marshadow: 314-370 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now this is obviously a fringe case, and you may argue that you’re more likely to see Core Enforcer on defensive threats than you are these specific checks to the Normalize set. That is true. Additionally, I think Multi-Attack being buffed gave Normalize sets plenty more legitimacy, but they still suffer some of the same problems other Normalize Pokemon run into: Knock Off and Trick, for example. But a big problem that Normalize sets run into that PHeal doesn’t is being Improof. Setting up with a Normalize mon of that sort leaves you scared of your own set. Sure, that can easily be fixed via having a Ghost, but P-Heal mons can sit in front of an Imposter mon for longer and with less overall fear, thanks to the fact that all of the benefits your ability gives you are not passed to your opponent. Band sets with Pursuit can also suffer from this. Bottom line, Normalize setup isn’t bad, but I would still argue that they are not better than P-Heal sets, and in fact, they fill different niches despite seeming so similar, which makes it very difficult (if impossible) to compare them to each other.
 
That new vanilla set we were hoping for:

Far-Chomp (Garchomp-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Bonemerang
- Bolt Beak
- Shift Gear

Boost 50%, double-hit break Sub, Sash, and Bolt Beak can do max damage when double speed.

Set name based on throwing Darts, and a boomerang far ahead toward the foe.
 
Does anyone still want this to happen?

I thought you guys really wanted to discuss?

Even with DLC, that will grant new abilities, moves, Pokemon... and thus strategies for older mons, so that will also revamp and improve the current Metagame.
Rain:
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Rain: 321-378 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 429-504 (106.1 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Rain: 639-753 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

unrain:
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 235-277 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 415-489 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

I'm not sure how good or usable Zekrom is w/ bolt beak as its the strongest abuser on paper. your stab doesnt actually kill like zygarde with band and adapt which is kinda wack. Set-up sets are kinda hard to pull off without some epic volt absorb/efy gengar stuff or shed but it has scary calcs too


+2 252 Atk Adaptability Zekrom Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 261-308 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Zekrom Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 372-440 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mans just dies, for zyg just use multi attack but take around 5-8% off
similarly most things just die, not really sure i need to provide calcs for +2 zekrom firing off 170 bp stab. Aside from that its a super great move choice for zera, but who knows how viable that would actually be given it really just.. wasnt, towards the end of the gen.

Finally, I personally would like to see dynamax on the watchlist. I don't think the mechanic works well in singles formats in general, and I feel that the thing noted by mamp about dmax in gen 8:



are things I'm not sure would apply in a natdex environment. I will admit I haven't given much thought to the topic, but I'm not exactly advocatinga quickban or anything like that, so. I've had a few teams waiting to be used for a while now, glad I might be able to actually use them soon :)
For Zekrom, instead of Adaptability Multi-Attack, you could use Technician and Choice Band, for maximum power Dragon Darts:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Zekrom Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 624-736 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Zekrom Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 568-672 (89.3 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Sounds like a 1HKO to me! :)

One strategy I use is Rapid Spin Baton Pass, which works on a Pokemon like Eviolite Type: Null, if it packs Recover and Spectral Thief.

Arceus could function similarly, especially with Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots, where it can clear hazards, but then pass the +1 Speed, even if it didn’t Spectral Thief anything.

This allows you to put Choice Band/Specs ahead of their competition.

Zekrom still won’t be faster than Zacian-Crowned, but that’s assuming you stay Adamant or only boost Speed once.
 
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Does anyone still want this to happen?

I thought you guys really wanted to discuss?
I'll admit it's hard to talk a metagame that's entirely theoretical and lacking a stable server to play on. However, MBH has gotten into PMGS so in the near future there should be some actual gameplay to work with.

Even with DLC, that will grant new abilities, moves, Pokemon... and thus strategies for older mons, so that will also revamp and improve the current Metagame.
Sure, but it doesn't grant all of what's lost. MBH will keep everything from Gen 7 with the addition of Gen 8 mons, abilities, and moves.
 
I'll admit it's hard to talk a metagame that's entirely theoretical and lacking a stable server to play on. However, MBH has gotten into PMGS so in the near future there should be some actual gameplay to work with.


Sure, but it doesn't grant all of what's lost. MBH will keep everything from Gen 7 with the addition of Gen 8 mons, abilities, and moves.
What does PMGS mean? Pet Mod ___ Server/Seasonal?

Cant we just use the coding for Gen 7, and the coding from Gen 8 and have someone implement necessary generational conflict resolutions?

Is the issue just not finding a voluntary coder?

What did we lose? I checked the OP, and it doesn’t list removals, beyond the standard bans.
18439CD6-9DFA-46D1-9963-4C3F16E2C0B8.png
 
What does PMGS mean? Pet Mod ___ Server/Seasonal?
pet mods grand slam

Cant we just use the coding for Gen 7, and the coding from Gen 8 and have someone implement necessary generational conflict resolutions?

Is the issue just not finding a voluntary coder?
It does seem like it would be easy, but coders are kind of scarce for a essentially-dead server. Fortunately Scoopapa updated the banlist so it should be working now (whenever the server is able to connect to, that is).

What did we lose? I checked the OP, and it doesn’t list removals, beyond the standard bans.
From Gen 7 to Gen 8 half of the available mons and several moves were snapped from existence and while DLC will add useful mons (i.e. Xerneas, Yveltal) and moves (i.e. Core Enforcer), they won't add everything (i.e. megas, Z-Moves, Magma Storm).
 
pet mods grand slam


It does seem like it would be easy, but coders are kind of scarce for a essentially-dead server. Fortunately Scoopapa updated the banlist so it should be working now (whenever the server is able to connect to, that is).


From Gen 7 to Gen 8 half of the available mons and several moves were snapped from existence and while DLC will add useful mons (i.e. Xerneas, Yveltal) and moves (i.e. Core Enforcer), they won't add everything (i.e. megas, Z-Moves, Magma Storm).
But your OP includes Megas, etc.
“Megas, forme changes and Z-Moves are allowed, similarly to NatDex OU and AG.”

Also, the second quote from Solaris further confirmed Megas, and Z-moves being in, thus Necrozma-Ultra form, while the discussion already emphasized Primal Kyogre being in, as well as Red Orb Groudon...

If we are combining these Gen 7 & 8 metagames, as your OP describes, including Mega forms, and Z-forms/moves, etc. I don’t see why you would suddenly renage them.
To answer your question, I believe if a Pokemon is Mega Evolved (whether via Mega Stone or just being Mega) or is holding a Z-Crystal (which are in), they cannot Dynamax. This also applies to Imposter copying non-Dynamax-able Pokemon.
Edit: From my unreplied Pm to you.
2A303726-43D5-4358-9B68-D2256EA943C9.png


It was pretty clear I initially knew we were adding Gen 8 to Gen 7, and that I was just stating I cannot wait for DLC to improve MBH.

You took that out of the context of MBH and applied it to elsewhere (where Gen7 isn’t coming back, in its entirety, to other metagames, outside of MBH).

Overall, you confused the issue by making it seem like we were missing certain Gen 7 things when that is precisely what MBH is NOT doing. You are the creator of this thread, so don’t say Gen 7 isn’t completely coming back, as if this thread isn’t about keeping Gen 7. You confused the issue by applying the context of not getting Gen 7 to other metagames, which is anything but this thread.

anaconja Make yourself clear and just talk about MBH
 
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But your OP includes Megas, etc.
“Megas, forme changes and Z-Moves are allowed, similarly to NatDex OU and AG.”

Also, the second quote from Solaris further confirmed Megas, and Z-moves being in, thus Necrozma-Ultra form, while the discussion already emphasized Primal Kyogre being in, as well as Red Orb Groudon...

If we are combining these Gen 7 & 8 metagames, as your OP describes, including Mega forms, and Z-forms/moves, etc. I don’t see why you would suddenly renage them.
I don't know how you're misunderstanding this, unless I got your original post wrong. You said that DLC will improve the Gen 8 BH metagame by adding moves and mons and stuff, and I said that DLC doesn't add everything that was removed from Gen 7 BH in the move to Gen 8 BH while MBH has kept everything from Gen 7 BH, added the content from Gen 8 BH, and will add the content from the DLC in the future. I don't see how this is in any way unclear.

If you're somehow still confused then please PM me to stop the thread from filling with unnecessary back-and-forth.
 
One set I want to try is:

Throwin’ Shade (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Ghostinium-Z / Lagging Tail
Ability: Adaptability / Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD /
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick-Or-Treat / Magic Powder
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt / V-Create / Recover

Tyranitar is built around forcing switches to maintain momentum while staying prepared to react to the foe, no matter what they do.

Tyranitar is meant to come in on a Pokemon, only to change the typing of its most common checks that are inevitably going to come in, using Lagging Tail to alter the type even against Slow Pivots.

Lagging Tail:

Has the added benefit of doubling Pursuit damage against pivot moves: “If the target is using U-turn, Volt Switch or Parting Shot, Pursuit's special effect will activate only if the user of Pursuit would usually act later than the target (its power will only be doubled in that case).”

Now — functioning as a lure only to leave the opponent baited into losing to the very Pokemon it was meant to counter.

Taunt serves as a backup to force the foe to Attack (or switch), all the while enabling Sucker Punch or Pursuit to punish their choice. V-Create is for KOing Steel types that won’t be weak to Sucker Punch after T-o-T (Zacian/Zamazenta Crowned), as well as Grass-types immune to Magic Powder. It also lowers Speed to benefit Pursuit against pivot moves/slower pivots.

T-o-T Vs Magic Powder:

The choice between Magic Powder and Trick-or-Treat is based on the targets you want to lure in. Since neither move works against a Pokemon that is a type this move turns that Pokemon into, that means Magic Powder won’t work against a potential MMX switch-in, while T-o-T makes it a Ghost type, allowing Sucker Punch to KO.

+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Tyranitar-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 476-560 (114.4 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Trick-or-Treat:

Adds a Ghost-type to the foe, in making it stack a 2nd type or 3rd type, rather than replacing the type entirely. This means it might only turn resists into a neutral, rather than a super effective hit, or turn a super effective hit into a 4x effective hit (such as VS Dusk-Mane). Still, one benefit is the option to go +1 all stats via the Z-move, which lets you Taunt first against most foes, and boost Attack. (In this case you wouldn’t need minimum Speed).

Using the Z-move also attracts Spectral Thiefs, which only generate free Sucker Punches, outspeeding the foe.

+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Tyranitar-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ghost-Arceus: 416-492 (93.6 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Magic Powder:

Replaces the foe’s type to become Psychic, also useful for removing the opponent’s STAB, and breaking resists (while T-o-T turns resists into neutral hits). This can make the difference between KOing Fairy-types, Dark-types, etc. or not. Still, Magic Powder is blocked by Grass-types/Safety Goggles.

T-o-T: Adding Ghost-type

+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Tyranitar-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252- Def -Diancie-Mega: 248-292 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Magic Powder: Becoming Psychic

252+ Atk Adaptability Tyranitar-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Diancie-Mega: 332-392 (109.2 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Forcing switches either lets you use Pursuit, or lets you change your incoming counter’s type on their switch-in, so you can Sucker Punch them first next turn.

Overall, this set boosts your damage output like crazy, and much of it isn’t Hazeable. Since you change the foe’s type, as you boost, you deal 3x the damage you normally would.

Using the Z-move also attracts Spectral Thiefs, which only generate free Sucker Punches, outspeeding the foe.

+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Tyranitar-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ghost-Arceus: 416-492 (93.6 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
 
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In light of MBH getting a permaladder (thanks G-Luke) I'd like to look over some things that could change in the banlist:

:ss/snorlax-gmax:
Dynamaxing something like MMX or MMY sounds broken as hell. I'm pretty sure most people want it banned but I want more formal discussion on it just in case.

:ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:
With its incredible offensive typing (hitting the primary two physical walls SE), STAB on very powerful attacks (V-Create and Triple Axel), a fantastic speed tier (outspeeding everything except MMY, Beedrill-Mega, Pheromosa, and Deo-A), DGZ is a very powerful mon, able to OHKO many common walls in the meta with little prediction required.
Gen 8 has a large amount of Fur Coat mons (mostly due to the lack of solid walls compared to Gen 7), as well as Reshiram as a solid check. However, in MBH there are more special attackers and Mold Breaker move users, and Reshiram's viability decreases significantly due to fierce competition from Groudon-Primal, for example.
Of course, DGZ isn't without weaknesses, primarily to Stealth Rock and its very low defenses, making it weak to chip. It can also be walled fairly consistently with Flash Fire/Primordial Sea Steels.

:ss/dracovish: :ss/dracozolt:
Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak may also be unhealthy in the amount of power they have. While they have the same base power they'll likely be used differently - Fishious Rend as a STAB on something like Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash and Bolt Beak more as a coverage move on something like DGZ, Groudon-Primal, or Diancie-Mega. SL put it quite nicely:
1593196469918.png


:sm/rayquaza-mega:
With the addition of Arceus formes some people have considered unbanning Rayquaza-Mega due to the Arceus having the ability to outspeed and KO/cripple it. Personally I don't really want a meta with it because I don't think it's healthy even if it's not overpowered, but I'd like more discussion.

:sm/tapu-lele:
Since Gen 8 BH unbanned Psychic Surge I also unbanned Psychic Surge, but I'd like some input from other people whether it's actually balanced or not. I was thinking the nerf makes it effectively a worse Adaptability/Tough Claws though now Expanding Force should be considered as well.

:sm/comfey:
I don't think anything in Gen 8 BH makes Triage better but Triage was talked about in Gen 7 because it can be hard to play against. Ice Scales exists now, though, which really helps.

:sm/heliolisk:
In the same boat as Triage, Electrify has been brought up mainly because of Lightning Rod Gengar-Mega, which has limited counterplay. Again, Ice Scales does alleviate the problem.

In addition, I'm opening council applications! PM me on Discord (anaconja#3464) if you are interested.
 
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I would say that the best course of action is to ban Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak and Dyna/Gigantamaxing as those are IMO the most pressing issues and then work from there.
 
In light of MBH getting a permaladder (thanks G-Luke) I'd like to look over some things that could change in the banlist:

:ss/snorlax-gmax:
Dynamaxing something like MMX or MMY sounds broken as hell. I'm pretty sure most people want it banned but I want more formal discussion on it just in case.

:ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:
With its incredible offensive typing (hitting the primary two physical walls SE), STAB on very powerful attacks (V-Create and Triple Axel), a fantastic speed tier (outspeeding everything except MMY, Beedrill-Mega, Pheromosa, and Deo-A), DGZ is a very powerful mon, able to OHKO many common walls in the meta with little prediction required.
Gen 8 has a large amount of Fur Coat mons (mostly due to the lack of solid walls compared to Gen 7), as well as Reshiram as a solid check. However, in MBH there are more special attackers and Mold Breaker move users, and Reshiram's viability decreases significantly due to fierce competition from Groudon-Primal, for example.
Of course, DGZ isn't without weaknesses, primarily to Stealth Rock and its very low defenses, making it weak to chip. It can also be walled fairly consistently with Flash Fire/Primordial Sea Steels.

:ss/dracovish: :ss/dracozolt:
Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak may also be unhealthy in the amount of power they have. While they have the same base power they'll likely be used differently - Fishious Rend as a STAB on something like Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash and Bolt Beak more as a coverage move on something like DGZ, Groudon-Primal, or Diancie-Mega. SL put it quite nicely:
View attachment 257401

:sm/rayquaza-mega:
With the addition of Arceus formes some people have considered unbanning Rayquaza-Mega due to the Arceus having the ability to outspeed and KO/cripple it. Personally I don't really want a meta with it because I don't think it's healthy even if it's not overpowered, but I'd like more discussion.

:sm/tapu-lele:
Since Gen 8 BH unbanned Psychic Surge I also unbanned Psychic Surge, but I'd like some input from other people whether it's actually balanced or not. I was thinking the nerf makes it effectively a worse Adaptability/Tough Claws though now Expanding Force should be considered as well.

:sm/comfey:
I don't think anything in Gen 8 BH makes Triage better but Triage was talked about in Gen 7 because it can be hard to play against. Ice Scales exists now, though, which really helps.

:sm/heliolisk:
In the same boat as Triage, Electrify has been brought up mainly because of Lightning Rod Gengar-Mega, which has limited counterplay. Again, Ice Scales does alleviate the problem.

In addition, I'm opening council applications! PM me on Discord (anaconja#3464) if you are interested.
Not to mention Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes. These two moves can easily be abused by multiple mons for massive damage.

Yveltal @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Dual Wingbeat
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn

Gyarados-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Surging Strikes
- Storm Throw
- Swords Dance

There's also Expanding Force, another broken move, which can be abused by a broken mon, and easily improofed with another terrain.

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Light of Ruin
- Blue Flare
- Slack Off

And of course, other terrains can easily be abused on their own, with Terrain Pulse, Mega Launcher, Grassy Glide, etc.

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Sunsteel Strike
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn

Diancie-Mega @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Sticky Web
- Terrain Pulse
- Misty Explosion

Gardevoir-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Terrain Pulse
- Psystrike
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
 
In light of MBH getting a permaladder (thanks G-Luke) I'd like to look over some things that could change in the banlist:

:ss/snorlax-gmax:
Dynamaxing something like MMX or MMY sounds broken as hell. I'm pretty sure most people want it banned but I want more formal discussion on it just in case.

:ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:
With its incredible offensive typing (hitting the primary two physical walls SE), STAB on very powerful attacks (V-Create and Triple Axel), a fantastic speed tier (outspeeding everything except MMY, Beedrill-Mega, Pheromosa, and Deo-A), DGZ is a very powerful mon, able to OHKO many common walls in the meta with little prediction required.
Gen 8 has a large amount of Fur Coat mons (mostly due to the lack of solid walls compared to Gen 7), as well as Reshiram as a solid check. However, in MBH there are more special attackers and Mold Breaker move users, and Reshiram's viability decreases significantly due to fierce competition from Groudon-Primal, for example.
Of course, DGZ isn't without weaknesses, primarily to Stealth Rock and its very low defenses, making it weak to chip. It can also be walled fairly consistently with Flash Fire/Primordial Sea Steels.

:ss/dracovish: :ss/dracozolt:
Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak may also be unhealthy in the amount of power they have. While they have the same base power they'll likely be used differently - Fishious Rend as a STAB on something like Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash and Bolt Beak more as a coverage move on something like DGZ, Groudon-Primal, or Diancie-Mega. SL put it quite nicely:
View attachment 257401

:sm/rayquaza-mega:
With the addition of Arceus formes some people have considered unbanning Rayquaza-Mega due to the Arceus having the ability to outspeed and KO/cripple it. Personally I don't really want a meta with it because I don't think it's healthy even if it's not overpowered, but I'd like more discussion.

:sm/tapu-lele:
Since Gen 8 BH unbanned Psychic Surge I also unbanned Psychic Surge, but I'd like some input from other people whether it's actually balanced or not. I was thinking the nerf makes it effectively a worse Adaptability/Tough Claws though now Expanding Force should be considered as well.

:sm/comfey:
I don't think anything in Gen 8 BH makes Triage better but Triage was talked about in Gen 7 because it can be hard to play against. Ice Scales exists now, though, which really helps.

:sm/heliolisk:
In the same boat as Triage, Electrify has been brought up mainly because of Lightning Rod Gengar-Mega, which has limited counterplay. Again, Ice Scales does alleviate the problem.

In addition, I'm opening council applications! PM me on Discord (anaconja#3464) if you are interested.
While Ice Scales will help against taking Gengar-Mega's SpA, Electrify means they can still be stopped from retaliating. Magic Bounce is the safer bet, and bear in mind Electrify will even bypass Dynamaxing:

"If used on a Pokémon about to use a damage dealing Max Move it will change the move to Max Lightning regardless of the move attempted."

At least Entrainment is blocked by Dynamax...

Darmanitan-Galarian-Zen Mode can counter Primordial Sea Steels, via Close Combat, or Fishous Rend:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Rain: 408-480 (86 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even if it were a 2HKO, such as with Mold Breaker against Fur Coat mons, that means you can’t just switch into it as a check, and slow pivoting requires the slow pivot to survive...

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Heavy Rain: 272-321 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 256-302 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What Pokemon can survive at a 3HKO from CB Mold Breaker? Bear in mind, it can always Dynamax to boost damage via Max-Flare weather, or Max-Knuckle +1 Atk, and switch moves to bypass Choice lock, so when Dynamax ends, it’ll have the weather / +Atk boosts.

On other mons, Fishous works well with Bolt Beak to cover Ground, and Water-types, respectively.
Not to mention Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes. These two moves can easily be abused by multiple mons for massive damage.

Yveltal @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Dual Wingbeat
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn

Gyarados-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Surging Strikes
- Storm Throw
- Swords Dance

There's also Expanding Force, another broken move, which can be abused by a broken mon, and easily improofed with another terrain.

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Light of Ruin
- Blue Flare
- Slack Off

And of course, other terrains can easily be abused on their own, with Terrain Pulse, Mega Launcher, Grassy Glide, etc.

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Sunsteel Strike
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn

Diancie-Mega @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Sticky Web
- Terrain Pulse
- Misty Explosion

Gardevoir-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Terrain Pulse
- Psystrike
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
Choice Band won’t let Gyarados use Swords Dance + Attack. Switch to Shift Gear, and give it Splash Plate, you may as well just give it Strong Jaws, so it can use Fishous Rend, Crunch / Jaw Lock, Ice Fang, and Shift Gear, which allows Adamant nature boosting its Atk.

This gives it helpful coverage, without the fear of being outsped: Crunch covers Giratina, Ice Fang covers Zygarde.

If you have a need for a Choice Band, just opt for Ash-Greninja:

252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 404-476 (80.3 - 94.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 432-512 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Greninja could get away with Bolt Beak, as its fourth move, to hit Kyogre-Primal, Arceus-Water, etc.

252 Atk Choice Band Greninja-Ash Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 464-548 (114.8 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Greninja-Ash Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 418-494 (94.1 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

2252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Flying: 471-555 (106 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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While Ice Scales will help against taking Gengar-Mega's SpA, Electrify means they can still be stopped from retaliating. Magic Bounce is the safer bet, and bear in mind Electrify will even bypass Dynamaxing:

"If used on a Pokémon about to use a damage dealing Max Move it will change the move to Max Lightning regardless of the move attempted."

At least Entrainment is blocked by Dynamax...

Darmanitan-Galarian-Zen Mode can counter Primordial Sea Steels, via Close Combat, or Fishous Rend:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Rain: 408-480 (86 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even if it were a 2HKO, such as with Mold Breaker against Fur Coat mons, that means you can’t just switch into it as a check, and slow pivoting requires the slow pivot to survive...

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Heavy Rain: 272-321 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 256-302 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What Pokemon can survive at a 3HKO from CB Mold Breaker? Bear in mind, it can always Dynamax to boost damage via Max-Flare weather, or Max-Knuckle +1 Atk, and switch moves to bypass Choice lock, so when Dynamax ends, it’ll have the weather / +Atk boosts.

On other mons, Fishous works well with Bolt Beak to cover Ground, and Water-types, respectively.

Choice Band won’t let Gyarados use Swords Dance + Attack. Switch to Shift Gear, and give it Splash Plate, you may as well just give it Strong Jaws, so it can use Fishous Rend, Crunch / Jaw Lock, Ice Fang, and Shift Gear, which allows Adamant nature boosting its Atk.

This gives it helpful coverage, without the fear of being outsped: Crunch covers Giratina, Ice Fang covers Zygarde.

If you have a need for a Choice Band, just opt for Ash-Greninja:

252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 404-476 (80.3 - 94.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 432-512 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Greninja could get away with Bolt Beak, as its fourth move, to hit Kyogre-Primal, Arceus-Flying, etc.

252 Atk Choice Band Greninja-Ash Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 464-548 (114.8 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Flying: 429-505 (96.8 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Choice band on an SD set was my mistake. I honestly have no idea how I managed to do that.
 
Choice band on an SD set was my mistake. I honestly have no idea how I managed to do that.
It’s okay. I figured it must have been.

I realized I put the Calcs for Bolt Beak as if they are Fishous Rend over in my calc Vs Arceus-Flying, Lol.

We all make mistakes. I am fixing mine:

252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Flying: 471-555 (106 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Echoing the above statement, stuff like CFZ, No Guard OHKO moves and possibly Dynamax need to be explunged from the metagame with GREAT expediency. After all of those very very broken things are dealt with the first few things we should immediatey take a look upon is

  • Psychic Surge - Psychic Surge did get a welcomed power nerf this generation but in return got E X P A N D I N G F O R C E and with actually good abusers this time like Deoxys-Attack, Necrozma-Ultra and Mega Mewtwo Y.
 

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