Growlithe (LC Analysis)

Towelie

Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/growlithe

Status: Ready to be uploaded!


[Overview]
<p>With decent mixed-attacking stats, two moves with high Base Power, and Intimidate, Growlithe can make a great Choice Scarf user in the Little Cup environment. While this set may seem to be outclassed by Ponyta, Intimidate alone warrants the use of Growlithe.</p>

[Set]
name: Choice Scarf Growlithe
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Overheat
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Reversal
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Intimidate
nature: Naive
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
evs: 196 Atk / 196 Spe / 116 SpA

[Set Comments]

<p>This set's primary goal is to switch into a physical threat, weaken their attack with Intimidate, and hit hard with the appropriate move. Growlithe does an excellent job of forcing physical attackers out, as well as hitting extremely hard with his two high-powered STAB moves.</p>

<p>Flare Blitz and Overheat are Growlithe's primary STAB moves, and hit almost everyone, bar Munchlax and Flash Fire Pokemon, extremely hard. The two coverage moves are for anything Growlithe’s Fire moves can’t hit hard. Hidden Power Ice is used primarily for Dragon-types. It helps Growlithe revenge kill Dragon Dance Dratini, Bagon, and Gible. Reversal, on the other hand, hits Munchlax and Houndour hard when Growlithe is at low health. While Reversal may not seem too viable, Growlithe will often find himself at low health due to Stealth Rock damage and Flare Blitz recoil. Return or Crunch could be used for neutral coverage or to hit Ghost-types, but Reversal and Hidden Power Ice are usually the better choices.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>This set has a lot of trouble with bulky Waters, so pairing him with an Electric-type is a good idea. Elekid and Scarf Chinchou make great partners. Chinchou can come in on any Water-type attack aimed at Growlithe, then proceed to set up an Agility. Elekid, on the other hand, can clean up with his Speed stat of 20 after Growlithe has broken down walls with his powerful STAB moves. Munchlax also makes a great teammate, as he can wall Scarf Houndour, who loves to switch in on Growlithe's STAB moves. A status absorber is also nice, because being paralyzed almost completely nullifies Growlithe's effectiveness.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Pairing Growlithe up with an Electric-type is usually a good idea. Electric-types can scare away the bulky Water-types who Growlithe has trouble with. Another great partner is Agility Mantyke; he can come in on two of Growlithe’s weaknesses, set up an Agility, and proceed to sweep the opponent's team. While Rapid Spin support may seem necessary to Growlithe, his Stealth Rock weakness is actually a blessing in disguise. When Growlithe switches into Stealth Rock, Reversal is powered up, making it a much more effective move against Munchlax and Houndour. Stealth Rock on the opponent's side is great for Growlithe because he causes a lot of switches with Intimidate.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>While Growlithe doesn’t have a particularly impressive movepool, Crunch can be used to OHKO Gastly and 2HKOes Duskull without having to deal with recoil, poor accuracy or a Special Attack drop. Any Hidden Power of your choice can work, including Hidden Power Rock or even Hidden Power Grass to hit Chinchou on the switch. Other than these few moves, there aren’t many other viable ones in Growlithe's shallow movepool.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Growlithe's biggest counters are bulky Waters who can set up on him, such as Agility Chinchou and Mantyke. Practically any Water-type be able to defeat Growlithe, and can use the turn on which Growlithe switches out to set up or simply attack the switch-in. Houndour can freely switch in on every single one of Growlithe's moves, bar Reversal, and can proceed to damage your Pokemon with his powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Faster Choice Scarf users like Gastly can deliver a huge hit to Growlithe with their STAB moves. However, most of these Pokemon will struggle to switch in on Growlithe thanks to his powerful attacks.</p>
 
Sadly, you summed it up yourself.

Why should you use Growlithe over Ponyta who seems superior in every way?
Click to expand...
Well, there are three main reasons.

- It has better Mixed Attacking stats. 70/70 < 85/65
- More bulk than Ponyta. 55/45/50 < 50/55/65
- Intimidate (The biggest component) Arguably, Flash Fire is the better ability, and Ponyta has that.
Click to expand...

Ponyta also has that awesome 90 base speed, which lets it get away with investing less in speed.

Also, your Speed EVs need Hidden Power correction, which badly screws you up as 196/200/116 > 508.
 
Seems very outclassed by Ponyta, a lot slower, less bulky, less power, lacks Hypnosis, etc.. Intimidate is the only real point over Ponyta, and Flash Fire is a very good ability too. Growlithe needs to take full advantage of intimidate (and maybe Crunch I guess) in order to avoid being entirely outclassed, and I'm not convinced this set benefits enough from Intimidate to make up for all of Pony's advantages. If you could find calcs of some common foes which Growlithe can beat thanks to intimidate (and Ponyta can't) it would help.

And what Ice Eyes said about Hidden Power. You're better off using HP Ground, going to lose a point either way.
 
The thing with Growlithe sets is that they need to be able to take advantage of Intimidate. This set does a decent job of that by more easily revenge killing Pokemon like DD Dratini and even Totodile.

I personally think HP Ice is a better alternative than HP rock for the sole reason that it allows you to revenge kill SD Gligar (who will at best hit you with a +1 LO QA) and DD Bagon. It has just enough SpA to OHKO Bagon with HP Ice after Stealth Rock too.

I will approve this once these things are cleared up.
 
After a little discussion on IRC, I think the optimal set is:

Flare Blitz
Hidden Power Ice
Overheat / Fire Blast
Reversal

Double-edge or Return aren't doing enough to be of much use besides revenge killing Totodile, (which even then might be difficult, not to mention that Waterfall could really wreck you if they survive, I would just leave the revenge killing to someone else, and try to use Growlithe more as a "Intimidate and scram" Pokemon). Anyway, Reversal will be doing a lot more to Munchlax after SR and Flare Blitz damage early, and Munchlax (who would love to switch in on something like Growlithe) will certainly be surprised and dominated with Reversal. Reversal is a last ditch move for Munchlax, but can certainly be worth it. Your 2 Fire-type attacks and Hidden Power Ice (which will KO Bagon with SR and do more to Dratini than DE/Return) will be your primary attacks with Reversal as a neat surprise for Munchlax.

If this is done, I will give my stamp of approval, as I think Heysup is right in that Intimidate can certainly warrant the use of Growlithe over Ponyta.
 
Not convinced by Reversal, you need to be at less than 1/3 to hit harder than Return even against munch/dour, and less than 10% to hit neutral foes harder.. Return is just that reliable attack to hurt stuff that resists fire. Without it you can't do anything to water types with the suggested set, or.. almost every fire resistor. Unless you are at very low HP of course, but that's situational and annoying.
 
I agree with kd24 about Reversal. With FlareBlitz, Stealth Rock, and the nature of attacks that Scarfers end up taking (priority), Growlithe will often be sitting at low HP. Reversal gives Growlithe the ability to nail Munchlax and Houndour while Return doesn't really help at all. It hits Chinchou for 12 BP more than FlareBlitz - not impressive imo.
 
I want to reiterate: Reversal is a "final" move of sorts. Flare Blitz/Overheat/HP Ice will be hitting everything hard enough except Houndour and Munchlax, both of whom Reversal could hit for Super Effective damage. With a SR weakness and Flare Blitz though, you are controlling the damage you take, which means you can easily get to low enough health to damage the Munchlax switch-in, should it come in. Houndour can be a little tricky because of Sucker Punch, but does the same not hold true for Return?

I am simply not convinced on what Return hits hard enough to warrant use over something that actually could have use killing Munchlax (who I think is this threat's biggest threat)
 
With an SR weakness and recoil, you're going to lose a lot of HP it's true. That's not the same as being able to accurately control how much HP you have, and Return will do something to munchlax (a lot more than a high/mid HP reversal) while keeping dour away easily. It also hits all the random fire resistors a fair bit harder than Flare Blitz without that annoying recoil. I'm not averse to a slash, but it seems too situational (you have to be at very low HP and against one of a few specific Pokemon) to be the main option.

Edit: And without hidden power, you really need Return to throw out at random fire types which often have Flash Fire. Reversal is kinda cool when you're at less than 20% HP, and does something under 1/3, but 'till you're low it just sucks.
 
Calcs:

DDtini:

Mixed Scarf Growlithe = Life Orb ExtremeSpeed: 50% - 63.6%
Mixed Scarf Ponyta = +1 Life Orb ExtremeSpeed: 86.4% - 104.5%

Scarf Bagon:

Mixed Scarf Growlithe = -1 Outrage: 68.2% - 81.8%
Mixed Scarf Ponyta = Outrage: 109.1% - 127.3%

It can actually switch in and OHKO with HP Ice.

Scarf Mankey:

-1 CC vs Growlithe: 68.2% - 81.8%
CC vs Ponyta: 109.1% - 127.3%.

Will get more if needed but I think this is enough.

Also Eric, Reversal beats the only common Pokemon with Flash Fire: Houndour.
 
Return does more unless you're at less than 1/3 HP. You're generally going to be hitting with a non STAB 40 base power attack.
 
eric the espeon said:
Return does more unless you're at less than 1/3 HP. You're generally going to be hitting with a non STAB 40 base power attack.
Click to expand...

I would like to note that those calcs along with Munchlax's Return and Houndour's LO Sucker Punch will put Growlithe in that range.


stamp3.png


As promised. Though I wouldn't be opposed to slashing Return.
 
Thanks everyone for the suggestions, stamps, calcs and etc with this being my first write-up, the help is appreciated. I'm gonna have to go with Heysup on the Reversal idea, but i'll definitely mention return in Other Options once the set gets approved.
 
I don't see to many other viable sets, but once i get home ill start testing some bulky sets and maybe an agility sweeper.

Edit: Changed comments again, I'm now starting the Analysis of the set.
 
You should change the set comments and all the other comments to reflect the current set.... it's kind of confusing to read the OP as is before you read the thread and see how you arrived at the new set.
 
In my opinion HP Ice is actually an inferior option, as Overheat/Fire blast should still ohko Gligar and at least severely hurt other ground types, so all you're hitting harder really would be dragon-types, which as far as I've seen are fairly rare.

HP Electric could be used to supplement Growlithe's poor coverage, or you could even use Return/Crunch (or even Iron Head or HP Grass/Ground to hit rock-types, really) and have straight 31 evs so that you could return to the original spread. You could at least put it in other options if someone using Growlithe doesn't need to hit dragon-types and wants the extra coverage.
 
[Overview]
<p> With decent mixed-attacking stats, two high base power moves, and Intimidate, Growlithe can make a great Choice Scarf user in the Little Cup environment. While this set may seem to be outclassed by Ponyta, Intimidate alone warrants the use of Growlithe. </p>

[Set]
name: Choice Scarf Growlithe
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Overheat
move 3: Hidden Power [Ice]
move 4: Reversal
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Intimidate
nature: Naive
evs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
ivs: 196 Atk / 196 Spe / 116 SpA

[Set Comments]

<p> This set's primary goal is to switch in to a physical threat, weaken the attack with Intimidate, and hit it hard with the appropriate move. It does an excellent job of forcing physical attackers out, as well as hitting extremely hard with its two high base powered STAB (is stab capitalized? (yes)) moves. </p>

<p> Flare Blitz and Overheat are Growlithe's primary STAB moves, and hits almost everything, bar Munchlax and Flash Fire Pokemon, extremely hard. The two coverage moves are for everything Growlithe’s Fire moves can’t hit. HP Ice is used primarily for Dragon-types. It helps Growlithe revenge kill DD Dratini, Bagon, and Gabite. Reversal on the other hand, hits Munchlax and Houndour hard when Growlithe is at low health. While Reversal may not seem too viable, with Stealth Rocks and Flare Blitz recoil, Growlithe often finds itself at low health. Return or Crunch can be used for neutral coverage or to hit Ghost-types, but Reversal and HP Ice are usually the better choices. </p>

[Additional Comments]

<p> This set has a lot of trouble with bulky Waters, so pairing it with and an Electric-type is a good idea. Elekid and Scarf Chincou make great partners. Chincou can come in on a Water attack used on Growlithe and proceed to set up an Agility. Elekid on the other hand, can clean up with its base 20 Speed after Growlithe has broken down walls with its high-powered powerful STAB moves. Munchlax also makes a great teammate, as it can wall Scarf Houndour, who loves to switch in on Houndours Growlithe's STAB moves. A status absorber is also nice, because being paralyzed almost completely takes away from Houndours Growlithe's effectiveness. </p>

[Team Options]

<p> Pairing up Growlithe with any Electric-type is usually a good idea. Electric-types can scare away the bulky Waters that Growlithe has trouble with. Another great partner is Rain Dance Mantyke. It can come in on two of Growlithe’s weaknesses, set up a Rain Dance, and proceed to sweep the opponent's team. While Rapid Spin support may seem necessary to Growlithe, its being Stealth Rock weak is actually a blessing in disguise. When it switches in to Stealth Rocks, it powers up Reversal, making it a much more effective move against Munchlax and Houndour. Stealth Rocks on the other hand the opponent's side, is great for Growlithe because it causes a lot of switches with Intimidate. </p>

[Optional Changes]

<p> While Growlithe doesn’t have that great of a movepool, a double status set may work with Toxic and Will-o-Wisp. Toxic can cripple any bulky waters that switch into Growlithe, and WoW can help cripple any physical attacking switch-ins. Return can work on the Scarf Set to get good neutral coverage, but it just doesn’t hit hard enough. Crunch on the other hand, OHKOes Ghastly and 2HKOes Duskull without having to deal with recoil or a SpA drop. Any Hidden Power of your choice can work, including HP Rock or even HP Grass to hit Chincou on the switch. Other than these few moves, there aren’t many other viable ones in Growlithes shallow move pool. </p>

[Counters]

<p> Growlithe's biggest counters are bulky Waters who can set up on it, like Agility Chincou or Mantyke. To take care of this problem, Munchlax is a good teammate who can wall both of them with its massive HP and SDef stats. Munchlax also makes a great switch-in to Houndour who absorbs any of Growlithes moves, bar Reversal. While most of them can’t switch in, faster Scarfers like Gastly can deliver a huge hit to Growlithe with their stab moves. </p>
Click to expand...
 
Towelie said:
Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/growlithe

Status: Needs proofreading checks.

[Overview]
<p> With decent mixed-attacking stats, two high base power moves, and Intimidate, Growlithe can make a great Choice Scarf user in the Little Cup environment. While this set may seem to be outclassed by Ponyta, Intimidate alone warrants the use of Growlithe. </p>
[Set]
name: Choice Scarf Growlithe
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Overheat
move 3: Hidden Power [Ice]
move 4: Reversal
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Intimidate
nature: Naive
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
evs: 196 Atk / 116 SpA / 196 Spe

[Set Comments]

<p> This sets primary goal is to switch in to a physical threat, weaken the attack with Intimidate, and hit hard with the appropriate move. It does an excellent job of forcing physical attackers out, as well as hitting extremely hard with its two high base powered STAB moves. </p>

<p> Flare Blitz and Overheat are Growlithes primary STAB moves, and hit almost everything, bar Munchlax and Flash Fire Pokemon, extremely hard. The two coverage moves are for everything Growlithe’s Fire moves can’t hit. Hidden Power Ice is used primarily for Dragon-types. It helps Growlithe revenge kill DD Dratini, Bagon, and Gabite. Reversal on the other hand, hits Munchlax and Houndour hard when Growlithe is at low health. While Reversal may not seem too viable, with Stealth Rock and Flare Blitz recoil, Growlithe often finds itself at low health. Return or Crunch can be used for neutral coverage or to hit Ghost types, but Reversal and HP Ice are usually the better choices </p>

[Additional Comments]

<p> This set has a lot of trouble with bulky Water-types, so pairing it with an Electric-type is a good idea. Elekid and Scarf Chinchou make great partners. Chinchou can come in on a Water attack used on Growlithe and proceed to set up an Agility. Elekid on the other hand, can clean up with its base 20 Speed after Growlithe has broken down walls with its powerful STAB moves. Munchlax also makes a great teammate, as it can wall Scarf Houndour who loves to switch in on Growlithes STAB moves. A status absorber is also nice, because being paralyzed almost completely takes away from Growlithes effectiveness. </p>

[Team Options]

<p> Pairing up Growlithe with any Electric type is usually a good idea. Electric types can scare away the bulky Water-types that Growlithe has trouble with. Another great partner is Rain Dance Mantyke. It can come in on two of Growlithe’s weaknesses, set up a Rain Dance, (but doesn't the rain kinda ruin growlithe?) and proceed to sweep the opponents team. While Rapid Spin support may seem necessary to Growlithe, its being Stealth Rock weak is actually a blessing in disguise. When it switches in to Stealth Rock, it powers up Reversal, making it a much more effective move against Munchlax and Houndour. Stealth Rock on the opponents side, is great for Growlithe because it causes a lot of switches with Intimidate. </p>

[Optional Changes]

<p> While Growlithe doesn’t have that great of a movepool, a double status set may work with Toxic and Will-o-Wisp. Toxic can cripple any bulky waters that switch into Growlithe, and Will-O-Wisp can help cripple any physical attacking switch-ins. Return can work on the Scarf Set to get good neutral coverage, but it just doesn’t hit hard enough. Crunch on the other hand, OHKOes Ghastly and 2HKOes Duskull without having to deal with recoil or a SpA drop. Any Hidden Power of your choice can work, including HP Rock or even HP Grass to hit Chinchou on the switch. Other than these few moves, there aren’t many other viable ones in Growlithe's shallow move pool. </p>

[Counters]

<p> Growlithe's biggest counters are bulky Water-types who can set up on it, like Agility Chinchou or Mantyke. To take care of this problem, Munchlax is a good teammate who can wall both of them with its massive HP and Special Defense stats. Munchlax also makes a great switch-in to Houndour who absorbs any of Growlithe's moves, bar Reversal. While most of them can’t switch in, faster Scarfers like Gastly can deliver a huge hit to Growlithe with their stab moves. </p>
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top