Grudge

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ZhengTann

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
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Grudge NDA description said:
The user prepares a curse. If they are KOed during that round Grudge is in effect, the curse is enacted. All Moves that fit the same category (e.g. Damaging Dark Moves, Status Moves if KO'd by a burn or toxic damage, etc.) that was used to KO the user of Grudge will not be usable for the rest of the match, even if the Grudge-afflicted Pokemon is switched out.
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Initiated by Dogfish, pretty much everyone agrees that the description "fit the same category" is vague and needs clarification. What we disagree on is how to clarify it. So far there are some suggestions:
  • Substitution Classes (Damaging Evasive moves, Poison Inducing Moves, etc.)
  • Typing (Fairy, Fire, etc.)
Please add on options if you have any, and/or provide feedback on the pros and cons of each option. Also, please adhere to the discussion regulations by IAR wherever possible, which I think is reasonable:
Its_A_Random said:
Here is a better idea: Talk about the Grudge the move in relation to the issue brought up, not how many Pokémon get Grudge / how many times Grudge is used. Nobody cares about usage and it has never been a good argument to use to justify something anywhere.

If I see a bunch of consecutive posts on a similar scale to the Grudge usage / distribution again... Well let me just say that I will not be pleased.

That is all.
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Progress of the discussion will be tracked in the OP.

Fire away ^_^
 
I personally like the Substitution Class idea; I feel like that's the closest to the spirit of the original wording. I have a question though; does Grudge affect just the Pokemon who gets the KO or the entire opponent's team? That might need to be clarified.
 
Yeah, right now the wording implies no side can use it for the rest of the match. Grudge should only apply to one pokemon, as in-game.

While blocking all moves of certain type seems like the simplest option IMO blocking all sub classes is the best, this is because the moves with added sub classes are very strong, this is the reason they need more ways to be sub against. So making Grudge a good way to sub for something like Phantom Force it's a very useful way to go down. The same for using Grudge against Status since many pokemon's best way to break endure is through toxic. And it both prevents the damaging moves but doesn't block important status moves (such as Dark moves blocking Taunt & Torment or Grass Moves blocking powders & co.)
 
The reason I'd go for Type over Substitution Class is simplicity - Taking Mach Punch, for example, effectively shuts down two very prominent Substitution Class (Damaging Fighting Type moves, Damaging Priority Moves) while making the referee's job slightly harder. Also, there's a good point about clarifying who is affected by Grudge - if we were to go with in-catridge canon and limit it to the Pokemon who scored the KO, then I guess we shall clarify it.
 
The only important sub classes are "Damaging Type", "Damaging evasive" and "Damaging Priority" for damaging moves, status is one sub class each with the sole exception of Nuzzle
 
Yeah there's no reason Grudge shouldn't be limited to a single Pokemon, it's already pretty devastating as it is. I guess the other question we want to ask is, does status trigger grudge? If so, then do we want Toxic to lock out all poison-inducing moves or all Poison-type moves? Similar question with Will-O-Wisp. I still feel like substitution class works best, as it most closely matches the original description of the word, but I could understand wanting to just make it by type to avoid confusion.
 
Alright, from the discussion so far, we'll need to clarify 3 points:
  • Whether single or multiple targets (although consensus seems pretty clear),
  • Whether it affects moves that directly KO, or result in residual damage KO,
  • Whether it affects Substitution Classes, or Typing.
I'd say 24-hour window before we move to Voting, shall we? Get your last thoughts in :)
 
Don't forget about it affecting both for the second question, and the option to try and think of a new idea for the third question. I think I'm fine with what we have so far otherwise.
 
Okay, if a full week revealed no other option to my third question, I don't think we'll need to get back here again - thread's just gonna go stale. Here is the list:

How will Grudge target?
Adjacent Target (single)
All Adjacent Targets (multiple)

How will Grudge affect if the Grudge user is KO'ed?
Moves that deal the residual KO damage
Moves that deal direct KO damage
Both of above

What moves will be affected by Grudge?
Moves of the same Substitution Class(s)
Moves of the same Type(s)


And thank you for your time! Mods may now close the thread at their discretion.
 
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