GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

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In HGSS, you can only get called for a rematch after you have beaten Team Rocket at the Radio Tower, but I'm not sure if this is the same in GSC. Though, even if you can get certain vitamins from rematches, I don't think this should be considered at all. Vanilla games aren't so hard that you need specific ev training, so rematching trainers over and over again for vitamins is really just a waste of time. In fact, these tier lists are meant for more casual players, and we definitely shouldn't expect those players to ev train their Pokemon in a casual run. For that reason, grinding vitamins actively hampers testing for this thread because it makes your Pokemon seem better than they will be for other players.
Incorrect. You have to call them on specific days, at specific times post Radio Tower in HGSS. In GSC they just call you for rematches whenever. I forget the timing on which they do however.

1. and what's wrong with a +7 level advantage over a boss? like, as long as you came by it without heavy grinding (which isn't even what's happening here). as for other pokemon with rare candies...i'm all ears as to what other pokemon gain as insane a boost.

2. define ''normally''. the rare candies i'm mentioning all appear before the rocket hideout or chuck.
I don't think you understand what 3 other people have told you. Going +7 level advantage is unacceptable in any scenario. Any Pokemon gets an insane boost from just being 7 levels over the bosses Ace. Tauros is a good example as it can potentially outspeed threats like Primeape and maybe OHKO with Strength/Return. Another good one would be Tentacruel to catch it up on levels as the best one to catch is right outside Cianwood but they are relatively low leveled.

Again, you don't seem to know the bare bones rules of testing or the unspoken ones. No recent tests that I have seen in IGTL has had overleveled mons with the exception of RBY/FRLG due to the amount of trainers from Lt. Surge to Erika. Just easy to overlevel there and happens anyway so we don't pay much attention to it. I shouldn't have to define normally here. When I used that term, I used it because unless you heavy grinded, you wouldn't have a Typh. Even if you did at Rocket Hideout, there is going to be a huge level disparity with your team as Quilava requires you to dump XP into it. Sure Rare Candies bypass this, but it would have been better to use this when it was higher leveled. That way we wouldn't have batted an eye at this. Quilava has no issue with Jasmine so long as you have Charcoal on and it is above level 30. Flame Wheel/Fire Blast just muscle through her. As for Chuck, it might struggle on Primeape, might get through fine. Won't on Wrath. Around Pryce, if you don't have it yet even after Rocket Hideout, it should be around level 33-35. Just pop candies on and done.
 
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2. well, we're not assuming a solo run, are we now (in which case, getting typhlosion this early would be realistic anyway lol)? don't use typhlosion against dragonite, use a good ice-type move user lol. typhlosion can help against gyarados anyway and charizard too so either way you cut it, he's useful against lance. experience is scarce, but not all pokemon have the same need for experience. in fact, a lot of the normal type in a have a way bigger exp requirement, due to the fact they come late and at low levels while also being in the slow experience group. worst of all, they have few genuinely good matchups, and might even struggle against the opponents typhlo wrecks (namely, chuck and jasmine).
Exactly. So make it make sense. How is dumping 7 candies on one mon so it can handle all bosses left in the game (allegedly) not screwing over your team?

You'll have at least 3 other "active" team members sitting on their thumbs while Typhlosion handles all business. What's the point for even having them in that case? Just do a solo run at that point.

i sincerely doubt a l36 tauros could steamroll jasmine, pryce, and chuck as efficiently as a l36 typhlosion. even if he does, note also that tauros is never particularly good at any point in the game, he's just good at clearing routes. typhlosion, from start to finish, is actually important in major battles against gym leaders, the elite four, and even red. i'd even argue whether penalizing quilava's late evolution makes all that much sense to begin with. why aren't we penalizing tauros and miltank for coming late, being at low levels, and taking ages to level up? they don't even offer that much in return lol. quilava is actually legitimately strong in the beginning as a cyndaquil and in the end as a typhlosion.
So you're telling me that the mon with 100 Atk (High for GSC standards) and 110 Spe (Very high for GSC standards) with a 102 BP move before factoring STAB that hits almost everything in-game neutrally, including Clair's Kingdra and Lance's DNites, who are big problems, and that hardly runs into its weaknesses outside of Chuck's Gym isn't going to put in work?

And who said we aren't penalizing the late Normal-types? Are they in S-Tier? You're mentioning all the reasons why they aren't S but that doesn't make Typhlosion look better. Tier placement is on a case-by-case scenario, not relative to other mons.

he ev deprivation issue also isn't that big in-game, both given how levels work (you're not gonna be near l100 any time soon, which is where those evs really start to matter) and the fact that plenty of those items can be found in-game and for free.
You can't be serious. Giving a vitamin is an instant stat up, imagine slaying mons by the hundreds during the game. The difference will be extremely noticeable, 7 levels worth of stat exp, which unlike EVs are always beneficial, will probably mean anywhere between 3-7 points per stat.

as for the other three pokemon, they're there to do what quilava/typhlosion can't - e.g. slay dragons (a hypothetical ice-type attacker), crush fighting types a (hypothetical psychic or flying-type attacker), and punch through fat dark types and snorlax like mons (could be something like heracross, trade machoke, or even graveler).
Interesting... and how are they supposed to do that when underleveled?

Matter of fact, I'll let you cook. Do that test run and post some updates with stats after major battles, let's see what happens. Who you running besides Roided Typh?
 
1. how is it overleveling if quilava massively benefits from the rare candies relative to other pokemon? it's not like furret or starmie would significantly improve with six rare candies, whereas this is a literal game-changer for quilava users. the option should at least be considered.

2. name another pokemon that can ''put in work with 7 levels' worth of candy backing it up'' like typhlosion...from the a tier. most of your a-tier normal types, ursaring and miltank included, will have issues against chuck and jasmine. the nidoran line has no safe matchups outside of jasmine and team rocket around this point in the game, and typhlosion would be far more efficient against both as well as chuck and pryce (pryce can't hit you super effectively at all, and chuck takes more damage from a typhlo t-punch than from a king t-punch). red gyarados might have issues with jasmine's magnemites and have issues breaking through chuck and pryce while also bogging your team down with a slow exp pokemon. the geodudes too have issues with jasmine, chuck, and pryce - they're flat out not great at this point in the game with few exceptions.
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You know sometimes when you want to try something Pokemon but are not inspired? Well I want to thank this guy for inspiring me! I never, ever used Rare Candies in a "Tier List Run" before. I am interested if Tauros, who can indeed struggle due to being the Slow EXP Group, can become amazing - of course

I really want to see how good Tauros w/ Rare Candies is.

My team line up is going to be:

Golem (The S-Tier early game if you run Chikorita)
Vaporeon (I never tried Crystal Eevee... and Vaporeon for that matter!)
Tauros (the one receiving rare candies)

Chikorita (HM Slave #1
Gyarados (HM Slave#2)
Spearow (HM Slave #3

I know the GSC In-Game Tier List isn't the right thread for posting my results, but still, had to thank you for the idea.
 
i'm not convinced that seven rare candies wouldn't benefit other pokémon better than it would benefit typhlosion either, even if we go by that argument

you have to remember that return (the best move in the game) is boosted by friendship, which itself is boosted by level-ups. i could catch a lv30 ursaring (which is much higher leveled than quilava will be at that point of the game) with the friend ball as soon as i defeat morty for example, and it'll benefit significantly from seven level-ups because of how badge boosts work (Return has essentially 219 BST after STAB and Pink Bow):

Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 133-157 (137.1 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 91-108 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 27 Seel: 137-162 (141.2 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 29 Dewgong: 104-123 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 28.2% chance to OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 31 Piloswine: 90-106 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite: 56-66 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 35 Steelix: 22-27 (16.9 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
(if you defeated Pryce before and equip Charcoal:)
Lvl 37 Ursaring Fire Punch vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite: 83-98 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Fire Punch vs. Lvl 35 Steelix: 66-78 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

in comparison, Typhlosion lv36

(assuming Magnet equipped if Thunder Punch, Charcoal equipped if Fire Punch)

Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 59-70 (60.8 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 39-47 (40.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 22-27 (18.1 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 62-74 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 27 Seel: 79-94 (81.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 29 Dewgong: 61-72 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(assuming Pryce is defeated, too)
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite: 148-174 (180.4 - 212.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 35 Steelix: 117-138 (90 - 106.1%) -- 38.5% chance to OHKO

free level ups also benefit mons in the slow level-up group, with special mention to the red gyarados

Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 85-100 (87.6 - 103%) -- 20.5% chance to OHKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 58-69 (47.9 - 57%) -- 91.3% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 27 Seel: 88-104 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- 46.2% chance to OHKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 29 Dewgong: 67-79 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 31 Piloswine: 62-74 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- 86.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 31 Piloswine: 102-120 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(assuming Mystic Water and Pryce is defeated)
Lvl 30 Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 37 Gyarados: 112-132 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite in Rain: 84-99 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 35 Steelix in Rain: 132-156 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

this is without taking into consideration that typhlosion has received experience from generic trainers post-surf, whereas the red gyarados and ursaring are freshly caught. the difference would be exacerbated if ursaring or gyarados had been trained similarly
 
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You know sometimes when you want to try something Pokemon but are not inspired? Well I want to thank this guy for inspiring me! I never, ever used Rare Candies in a "Tier List Run" before. I am interested if Tauros, who can indeed struggle due to being the Slow EXP Group, can become amazing - of course

I really want to see how good Tauros w/ Rare Candies is.

My team line up is going to be:

Golem (The S-Tier early game if you run Chikorita)
Vaporeon (I never tried Crystal Eevee... and Vaporeon for that matter!)
Tauros (the one receiving rare candies)

Chikorita (HM Slave #1
Gyarados (HM Slave#2)
Spearow (HM Slave #3

I know the GSC In-Game Tier List isn't the right thread for posting my results, but still, had to thank you for the idea.
It fixes what arguably is its biggest issue, so it's probably going to be turbo busted with a Friend Ball.

It just ain't fit for an efficiency run.
 


My current run so far. Read from left to right.
- Geodude as always, makes the first four(!) badges completly trivial. It will evolve again at Level 37 btw.
- Just going back to Eevee let me level up my Tauros one level on trainers I skipped with Geodude. Also, Headbutt + Return is OP
- Getting the Water Stone is way more annoying than I thought. I accidentally didn't save so I had to go back to Route 42 after I started a "battle me" script. Than I had to go back again and do the whole Day Time Saving Trick for the water stone.

Currently my team is at the most bottom of the picture. NO Rare Candies were used. When would you guys use the Rare Candy?
 
Incorrect. You have to call them on specific days, at specific times post Radio Tower in HGSS. In GSC they just call you for rematches whenever. I forget the timing on which they do however
actually, you can call people for rematches even in gsc. i reset the day to monday and called youngster joey. he challenged me on the spot. you have to do this during the daytime, however (10:00-05:59). i did some research yesterday and this video by crystal on youtube showed me the way.

yes, i called him - and he challenged me within the call.

In HGSS, you can only get called for a rematch after you have beaten Team Rocket at the Radio Tower, but I'm not sure if this is the same in GSC. Though, even if you can get certain vitamins from rematches, I don't think this should be considered at all. Vanilla games aren't so hard that you need specific ev training, so rematching trainers over and over again for vitamins is really just a waste of time. In fact, these tier lists are meant for more casual players, and we definitely shouldn't expect those players to ev train their Pokemon in a casual run. For that reason, grinding vitamins actively hampers testing for this thread because it makes your Pokemon seem better than they will be for other players.
all the same, it's clear pokegear calls are meant to be a legitimate part of this game.

easy access to valuable items could go some way in easing access to not only stronger pokemon, but also (more importantly) money.

also, yes, you can rematch people before the radio tower...though initiating higher leveled rematches is something i'm still figuring out how to do. i fought youngster joey twice the rematch way but he hasn't raised the level of his pokemon yet.
 
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i used enough rare candies to evolve and the friendship increased
Evolving causes Friendship to increase. Leveling up does, which a Rare Candy causes. It's a +5 from 0-99 which then goes down to +3 from 100 - 199. Probably how you got that value there. In Crystal if you level up at the Met Location this is instead buffed by a +10 instead of 5 and a +6 instead of 3. But this is Gold so eh. Also how'd you get 11 Candies?

actually, you can call people for rematches even in gsc. i reset the day to monday and called youngster joey. he challenged me on the spot. you have to do this during the daytime, however (10:00-05:59). i did some research yesterday and this video by crystal on youtube showed me the way.

yes, i called him - and he challenged me within the call.
My quote was that they can call you at anytime for one, which the inverse can happen but I only ever use the DST Trick to get an item from them as they do no increase level until after Rocket Takeover and again after the League. This would also fall under the scope of grinding if used excessivly, something we do not do on these lists as it defeats the purpose of even tiering them. It would bloat their performance.
 
It's worth noting that Rare Candies do not boost Friendship in GSC. That started in RSE and on. So if you were planning to stack that with Friend Ball, hate to break it to ya.
This is from the friendship page on bulbapedia

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Edit: got ninja'd
 
also, time for my first update!

i'm playing pokemon vc crystal and i have two pokemon in my team so far - quilava (l19) and poliwag (l19). i have just cleared azalea town, including the rival. apart from beating up on the occasional hoppip (gives a lot of exp) or bellsprout (same).

a brief history of my run: my male cyndaquil was level 6 before fighting the rival, level 7 after beating him, and skyrocketed to level 14 just off fighting route trainers, the occasional bellsprout, and sprout tower. yes, sprout tower was more or less a cakewalk and i needed no healing items there. i picked up ember before hitting the final floor, which was convenient. i then bopped falkner, but tried to avoid all the trainers on my way to azalea town - mostly successfully. i cleared the slowpoke well of team rocket afterwards. between falkner and team rocket (and almost zero other trainers), i brought quilava up to level 17-19. i guess having only one pokemon at this stage helped a lot with the level-up process.

and after getting kurt's lure ball, made a detour to the ruins of alph (again, making sure to avoid trainers). i caught a poliwag using my old rod at level 10 and had him grind in the union cave against the hikers and firebreathers. after that, i took poliwag to the azalea gym, where with some healing support he trashed the gym trainers' pokemon, even the paras, and was level 17 by the time of fighting bugsy. poliwag leveled up to level 18 against bugsy's metapod and kakuna while quilava took care of scyther - took a few embers, though. after that i fought my rival, whose gastly and zubat went down easy to hypnosis + water gun spam, though gastly hitting me with hypnosis first after i missed was annoying.

croconaw, however, was a lot tougher, and threatened to two-shot quilava with water gun. luckily, he had a harder time taking poliwag down, allowing me to use hypnosis on croconaw a number of times, bring quilava in, have him leer croconaw down, and have quilava win with tackles. of course it took a lot of healing items, though only just the ones i already had and not even all of them. overall, a fun run so far, and cyndaquil has been great so far. i admit i'm disappointed he couldn't two-shot scyther like i hoped but maybe that's an iv thing?
 
My quote was that they can call you at anytime for one, which the inverse can happen but I only ever use the DST Trick to get an item from them as they do no increase level until after Rocket Takeover and again after the League. This would also fall under the scope of grinding if used excessivly, something we do not do on these lists as it defeats the purpose of even tiering them. It would bloat their performance.
ah, my mistake. tbf a lot of people do say you can't call people for rematches, and i wanted to clarify you can.

i vaguely remember some npc pokemon increasing in levels before the rocket takeover though. i guess i'll have to wait for joey again to see.
 
also, time for my first update!

i'm playing pokemon vc crystal and i have two pokemon in my team so far - quilava (l19) and poliwag (l19). i have just cleared azalea town, including the rival. apart from beating up on the occasional hoppip (gives a lot of exp) or bellsprout (same).

a brief history of my run: my male cyndaquil was level 6 before fighting the rival, level 7 after beating him, and skyrocketed to level 14 just off fighting route trainers, the occasional bellsprout, and sprout tower. yes, sprout tower was more or less a cakewalk and i needed no healing items there. i picked up ember before hitting the final floor, which was convenient. i then bopped falkner, but tried to avoid all the trainers on my way to azalea town - mostly successfully. i cleared the slowpoke well of team rocket afterwards. between falkner and team rocket (and almost zero other trainers), i brought quilava up to level 17-19. i guess having only one pokemon at this stage helped a lot with the level-up process.

and after getting kurt's lure ball, made a detour to the ruins of alph (again, making sure to avoid trainers). i caught a poliwag using my old rod at level 10 and had him grind in the union cave against the hikers and firebreathers. after that, i took poliwag to the azalea gym, where with some healing support he trashed the gym trainers' pokemon, even the paras, and was level 17 by the time of fighting bugsy. poliwag leveled up to level 18 against bugsy's metapod and kakuna while quilava took care of scyther - took a few embers, though. after that i fought my rival, whose gastly and zubat went down easy to hypnosis + water gun spam, though gastly hitting me with hypnosis first after i missed was annoying.

croconaw, however, was a lot tougher, and threatened to two-shot quilava with water gun. luckily, he had a harder time taking poliwag down, allowing me to use hypnosis on croconaw a number of times, bring quilava in, have him leer croconaw down, and have quilava win with tackles. of course it took a lot of healing items, though only just the ones i already had and not even all of them. overall, a fun run so far, and cyndaquil has been great so far. i admit i'm disappointed he couldn't two-shot scyther like i hoped but maybe that's an iv thing?
Generally speaking, we don't fight wild encounters when testing. Second, I have no idea how this list handles their tests, but how RBY, FRLG, HGSS, BW have done it is on a solo mentality. The Pokemon you are testing fights the match up by itself with limited aid as it can get. From what I am reading here, you used both Poliwag and Quilava on Bugsy meaning it was shared. Obviously we know that Quilava has no issue with Bugsy but how would Poliwag fare against Scyther? Again this is repeated on Rival 2. While it seems that I am trying to find as many things that you are doing wrong and jumping down your throat, it is not my intention. My intent is to guide you towards how testers test in each thread, but again I have no idea what Passerby is expecting from his testers so I cannot say, but it might be wise to do it the above way. Tends to get more accurate results. And when you test make sure to do a mu more than once. That way you can get as much info as possible. 3 runs each is magic number (unless you know for sure that it's gonna sweep easily i.e. Geodude on Falkner in HGSS).

ah, my mistake. tbf a lot of people do say you can't call people for rematches, and i wanted to clarify you can.

i vaguely remember some npc pokemon increasing in levels before the rocket takeover though. i guess i'll have to wait for joey again to see.
No worries. My knowledge on Rematches in GSC is shaky as I haven't played it in a long time since my Mono Poison Run (don't do that run). So the level increase might be wrong and it could be Badge dependent like RSE was (Rematches there started after Norman and the levels would increase again sometime near the end game).
 
Second, I have no idea how this list handles their tests, but how RBY, FRLG, HGSS, BW have done it is on a solo mentality. The Pokemon you are testing fights the match up by itself with limited aid as it can get.
I personally see this as a valid method, but I have to add a couple things.

Ideally, a mon can outright sweep a major battle. That's an outright excellent matchup.

But, if a mon can consistently beat threatening members of the opposing team without outright sweeping, that's a good matchup. Not the best, but at least a B+.

Similarly, if a mon can somewhat handle the least dangerous mons, that paves the way for the mon mentioned above to do what it needs to do. Not good, but not deadweight either.

Deadweight mons are obviously incapable of even attempting to contribute.

I particularly make sure to note each case whenever I rate a mon because honestly, I'm not too harsh on the "good" matchups.

Some battles, like RSE Wattson for example, are almost impossible to outright sweep because of hax/explosion reasons.
 
1. I only used one Rare Candy on Tauros for the Ice Gym. Three are left

2. I think I need to emphasize again how good Geodude is. It won against Kingdra as a Graveler because I baited it into Hyper Beam and I used Self-Destruct on the recharge turn...
Also Defense Curl + Rollout + Quick Claw is nasty. Can't wait to try it out in the Elite Four
3. I always forget that before the 8th Gym even if you buy items casually you have easily enough money for the super powerful TM's. As a kid I never bought them. Blizzard for example was stellar on Vaporeon. Which made me realize that even Non-IcePunch Water Types should be amazing ingame due to Surf before Gym 3. If there is a water type which can be caught Gym 1 - Gym 3 which isn't tested a lot please tell me.
 
Generally speaking, we don't fight wild encounters when testing. Second, I have no idea how this list handles their tests, but how RBY, FRLG, HGSS, BW have done it is on a solo mentality. The Pokemon you are testing fights the match up by itself with limited aid as it can get. From what I am reading here, you used both Poliwag and Quilava on Bugsy meaning it was shared. Obviously we know that Quilava has no issue with Bugsy but how would Poliwag fare against Scyther? Again this is repeated on Rival 2. While it seems that I am trying to find as many things that you are doing wrong and jumping down your throat, it is not my intention. My intent is to guide you towards how testers test in each thread, but again I have no idea what Passerby is expecting from his testers so I cannot say, but it might be wise to do it the above way. Tends to get more accurate results. And when you test make sure to do a mu more than once. That way you can get as much info as possible. 3 runs each is magic number (unless you know for sure that it's gonna sweep easily i.e. Geodude on Falkner in HGSS).



No worries. My knowledge on Rematches in GSC is shaky as I haven't played it in a long time since my Mono Poison Run (don't do that run). So the level increase might be wrong and it could be Badge dependent like RSE was (Rematches there started after Norman and the levels would increase again sometime near the end game).
1. i barely took part in any wild encounters at all lol. that being said, it's not as if wild encounters are to be completely avoided even in other ingame tier lists either - is not defeating audino considered a reliable way to farm experience points? hoppip is like that in the very early game, and until that point i had been fleeing wild encounters with my cyndaquil. i bopped the hoppip and a pidgey after that to get cyndaquil to level 6 and i do remember raising poliwag one or two levels off union cave encounters, but that was about it. the vast vast majority of my exp came from trainers.

and i haven't even fought all the npcs yet lol (which would likely have a similar effect to fighting a handful of wild pokemon, if not greater). i'm saving them so i can get my third pokemon and train him/her against them. i went out of my way to avoid fighting trainers in route 32.

2. actually, i told Random Passerby that i'd be testing cyndaquil's ability to reach level 36 (inclusive of rare candies) by the chuck-jasmine-pryce part of the game, as part of a four-mon team. in fact, they personally told me that they ideally assume a four-mon team on the previous page.

3. i'm not playtesting poliwag himself or even any other pokemon i'm using. i'm playtesting cyndaquil's ability to reach his final form by the point in the game as part of a four-mon team.

4. however, if you're interested, i will point out that getting poliwag with the old rod from the ruins of alph is perhaps the best way to do so - it comes around the same time as union cave, where he practically decimates the npcs (minus the slowpoke guy) with bubble and eventually water gun, it comes at level 10, and the only other pokemon you can encounter with the rod is magikarp, and i got poliwag on maybe my third encounter with the rod. raising the poliwag you pick up in route 30 would likely be harder, given the fact it has to wait a lot longer for water gun. poliwag can also be a great check to the rival's quilava and even croconaw, with water gun for the former and hypnosis shenanigans for the latter. crystal only.

5. i'm genuinely surprised there isn't more info on how these calls work tbh. i checked bulbapedia, serebii, and youtube, but none of them really give the full answer (though youtube is how i found out that you can call people for rematches on specific days and times). that's kind of strange given that this game is actually like early 2000s or so lol. speaking of which, i'm also trying to use my current run to find out how pokegear rematches really work and the earliest point i can acquire tm fire blast for cyndaquil. the way gsc is designed makes me wonder sometimes...

i'm not convinced that seven rare candies wouldn't benefit other pokémon better than it would benefit typhlosion either, even if we go by that argument

you have to remember that return (the best move in the game) is boosted by friendship, which itself is boosted by level-ups. i could catch a lv30 ursaring (which is much higher leveled than quilava will be at that point of the game) with the friend ball as soon as i defeat morty for example, and it'll benefit significantly from seven level-ups because of how badge boosts work (Return has essentially 219 BST after STAB and Pink Bow):

Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 133-157 (137.1 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 91-108 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 27 Seel: 137-162 (141.2 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 29 Dewgong: 104-123 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 28.2% chance to OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 31 Piloswine: 90-106 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite: 56-66 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Return vs. Lvl 35 Steelix: 22-27 (16.9 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
(if you defeated Pryce before and equip Charcoal:)
Lvl 37 Ursaring Fire Punch vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite: 83-98 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Ursaring Fire Punch vs. Lvl 35 Steelix: 66-78 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

in comparison, Typhlosion lv36

(assuming Magnet equipped if Thunder Punch, Charcoal equipped if Fire Punch)

Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 59-70 (60.8 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 39-47 (40.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 22-27 (18.1 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 62-74 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 27 Seel: 79-94 (81.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. Lvl 29 Dewgong: 61-72 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(assuming Pryce is defeated, too)
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite: 148-174 (180.4 - 212.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 36 Typhlosion Fire Punch vs. Lvl 35 Steelix: 117-138 (90 - 106.1%) -- 38.5% chance to OHKO

free level ups also benefit mons in the slow level-up group, with special mention to the red gyarados

Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 27 Primeape: 85-100 (87.6 - 103%) -- 20.5% chance to OHKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 30 Poliwrath: 58-69 (47.9 - 57%) -- 91.3% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 27 Seel: 88-104 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- 46.2% chance to OHKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 29 Dewgong: 67-79 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Return vs. Lvl 31 Piloswine: 62-74 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- 86.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 31 Piloswine: 102-120 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(assuming Mystic Water and Pryce is defeated)
Lvl 30 Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 37 Gyarados: 112-132 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 30 Magnemite in Rain: 84-99 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 37 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 35 Steelix in Rain: 132-156 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

this is without taking into consideration that typhlosion has received experience from generic trainers post-surf, whereas the red gyarados and ursaring are freshly caught. the difference would be exacerbated if ursaring or gyarados had been trained similarly
great find! perhaps i've been underestimating those other mons lol. the problem, however, is that all of those mons - like it or not - appear later in the game. these mons also need a lot more training even outside of rare candies (both because they come at relatively low levels and because they need a lot of experience to grow). raising them from like level 13 (my cyndaquil reached level 14 even before fighting falkner, in comparison, and i focused almost exclusively on trainer battles) to level 30 is gonna take a while. this means you will have to grind them somewhere.

and grinding them somewhere will come at the expense of other pokemon, as this is the point where the level curve starts getting terrible. add the rare candies to that and ultimately you're making bigger sacrifices for them than i would be for typhlosion.

even inclusive of rare candies, a level 14 quilava in the early game needs fewer experience points to hit l40 than a level 14 tauros in the middle game. i might be wrong about this, and i'd appreciate if someone could do the calculation for me, but this seems fair given their exp groups.

also, very quick update: i got rematched by youngster joey the third time, and his rattata is now at level 15.

i still haven't beaten whitney yet, i just got the trade spearow for my third team member and am now grinding him against trainers i skipped before.

also...i didn't get a hp up. :(

(did bulbapedia and serebii lie?)
 
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great find! perhaps i've been underestimating those other mons lol. the problem, however, is that all of those mons - like it or not - appear later in the game. these mons also need a lot more training even outside of rare candies (both because they come at relatively low levels and because they need a lot of experience to grow). raising them from like level 13 (my cyndaquil reached level 14 even before fighting falkner, in comparison, and i focused almost exclusively on trainer battles) to level 30 is gonna take a while. this means you will have to grind them somewhere.

and grinding them somewhere will come at the expense of other pokemon, as this is the point where the level curve starts getting terrible. add the rare candies to that and ultimately you're making bigger sacrifices for them than i would be for typhlosion.

even inclusive of rare candies, a level 14 quilava in the early game needs fewer experience points to hit l40 than a level 14 tauros in the middle game. i might be wrong about this, and i'd appreciate if someone could do the calculation for me, but this seems fair given their exp groups.
Ursaring is available at Lv25 right after Morty (I assume Quilava is around this level at this point). Gyarados is available at Lv30 at the same point. There's not much difference in throwing them candies than throwing candies to Quilava. I'm not asking you guys to sweep the game with one mon so I'm not sure what people are trying to prove with those calculations.

By the way, don't double or triple post. It's frowned upon. Edit that new information into your original post.
 
I'm not asking you guys to sweep the game with one mon so I'm not sure what people are trying to prove with those calculations.
They were trying to disprove the claim that Typhlosion would be the best A-Tier recipient (it ain't even A tho) for 7 whole candies.

The whole argument is still quite frankly absurd and will lead absolutely nowhere. But I suppose we'll confirm that soon enough.
 
very quick update: i got rematched by youngster joey the third time, and his rattata is now at level 15.

i still haven't beaten whitney yet, i just got the trade spearow for my third team member and am now grinding him against trainers i skipped before.

also...i didn't get a hp up. :(

(did bulbapedia and serebii lie?)
They did not lie. It's a random chance he gives you it.
 
They did not lie. It's a random chance he gives you it.
lol, really? i don't remember reading that at all.

They were trying to disprove the claim that Typhlosion would be the best A-Tier recipient (it ain't even A tho) for 7 whole candies.

The whole argument is still quite frankly absurd and will lead absolutely nowhere. But I suppose we'll confirm that soon enough.
it should be a is pretty much my point. it's certainly more efficient to keep training quilava (in my run was around l21 by the time i got to ecruteak city) than to catch a l14 tauros/miltank with horribly slow exp growth and grind that into a stronger pokemon. they aren't even all that useful against morty whereas quilava can at least do something with rollout and/or dig. in fact, even as far as slow exp pokemon go, staryu's another one who > cows.

staryu starts at level 20 (use good rod in olivine at night) and has a boss arsenal, you can pick up water stone very quickly too. rain dance + thunder + icy wind + surf clean house, and this is also the point in the game where getting thunder is possible.
 
lol, really? i don't remember reading that at all.



it should be a is pretty much my point. it's certainly more efficient to keep training quilava (in my run was around l21 by the time i got to ecruteak city) than to catch a l14 tauros/miltank with horribly slow exp growth and grind that into a stronger pokemon. they aren't even all that useful against morty whereas quilava can at least do something with rollout and/or dig. in fact, even as far as slow exp pokemon go, staryu's another one who > cows.

staryu starts at level 20 (use good rod in olivine at night) and has a boss arsenal, you can pick up water stone very quickly too. rain dance + thunder + icy wind + surf clean house, and this is also the point in the game where getting thunder is possible.
The more you talk about Tauros/Miltank, the more I want to ask: "Do you have a problem with Miltank at A or are you pushing Typh to A?"

Ranks aren't relative. Each mons earns or fails to earn their respective rank on its own merits.

The "its own merits" being a key word. It's one thing to give them a couple TMs, but too many and they get penalized for needing too much support.

Imagine a mon that needs seven Rare Candies to pretend it's efficient.

Your argument was thoroughly shot down repeatedly by several people and you're still trying to make the same case without at least even trying to add anything to it.

Typhlosion is not A-Tier material. Dumping 7 rare candies on a mon mid-game to force an advantageous situation does not move the needle, these candies are better used to bridge either Lance or Red's level gaps, and Typhlosion doesn't really have advantageous matchups against critical major battles like Clair or Lance. Will is the weakest E4 member and Koga is a bonafide scrub. Bruno is a bad matchup and so is Lance.

So let me spell it out for you.

Make a better argument because you're making a fool out of yourself with this one.
 
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