GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

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as to the bolded, the fact you don't know why is proof you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, given that this is the exact time the level curve starts getting weird. you know what, i'm done talking about typhlosion using rare candies. however, as people working on an ingame tier list, y'all have a responsibility to show people ways they can make this playthrough more efficient, and that includes using those five rare candies on one of 4 mons then grinding the other 3 against trainers in the midgame routes and gyms to catch up with 4.
Excuse me, but I absolutely know what I’m talking about.

I’ve actually co-published the Pokémon Black and White in-game tier list. I’m working on co-publishing the Red, Blue and Yellow one. Last I checked, you haven’t published any tier lists. All you’ve done is make an insanely repetitive circlejerk that’s derailed this thread.

I’ve played Johto plenty of times, I know the terrible level curve. It sucks, but no, that doesn’t give you a reason to blatantly favor a mon. We generally assume you raise mons by level equally.

Keep sticking your fingers in your ears and see how many people keep listening. Just about everyone has decried this favoritism.

I know I’m being a little blunt, but we please just need to move onto another mon soon before this thread goes down in flames. I’ve led a list that was nearly capsized because of Golett for similar reasons.
 
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Excuse me, but I absolutely know what I’m talking about.

I’ve actually co-published the Pokémon Black and White in-game tier list. I’m working on publishing the Red, Blue and Yellow one. Last I checked, you haven’t published any tier lists. All you’ve done is make an insanely repetitive circlejerk that’s derailed this thread.

I’ve played Johto plenty of times, I know the terrible level curve. It sucks, but no, that doesn’t give you a reason to blatantly favor a mon. We generally assume you raise mons by level equally.

Keep sticking your fingers in your ears and see how many people keep listening. Just about everyone has decried this favoritism.

I know I’m being a little blunt, but we please just need to move onto another mon soon before this thread goes down in flames. I’ve led a list that was nearly capsized because of Golett for similar reasons.
1. yeah? doesn't look like it.

2. cool, and i commend you for that...so why don't you actually take a look at your other tier lists and how they've ranked their starters...and tell me again cyndaquil is a b-tier? since you're sooo much better at it than i am, never mind the fact i wasn't even there when you were working on these lists. as for my ''circlejerk'', i've made new arguments and points, you do realize i flat out made arguments for cyndaquil even without the rare candies (my entire last post) and optimizing the rare candies even without using them on quilava?!

3. this ''blatant favoring a mon'' tripe was disproven a few comments ago, given that it benefits the entire team and i even argued that as a major reason to endorse the rare candy strategy, even regardless of whether quilava is the recipient or not. i apologize if i wasn't clearer. as for raising mons by level equally...that requires the mons to be at the same level, and we both know well that's not often the case. even fighting the elite four can cause your team's levels to go out of whack, and a lot of pokemon in the wild will start at levels lower than your team.

4. that's fine, and i'm completely willing to do that. why not just suggest a mon instead of ranting at me? if you can't do that, i would be happy to make a case for staryu in b minimum, crystal only. both hm-surf and the water stone can be obtained around the same time you can get staryu in crystal, you just need dst manipulation. staryu starts at a fairly high level (l20) and if you're willing to make some detours, can be obtained even before the morty fight and evolved before it as well. with surf in hand, starmie can bulldoze through morty's gym and morty himself as well as (provided starmie's in the 30s) jasmine. you should be able to get tm-thunder after beating olivine lighthouse + team rocket base, which goes with rain dance and allows you to wallop pryce and chuck too. you can then get tm-icy wind from pryce for starmie, icy wind and thunder give clair trouble.

rain + thunder + surf + icy wind crushes will, does pretty well against koga (annoying crobat gets crushed by a no-miss thunder), does okay against bruno, and can wipe the floor with karen short of her umbreon. lance's pokemon all get hit hard and super effectively too. that's close to s-tier performance imho, better than even totodile can muster. the only caveat is that staryu and starmie are very tm dependent. detours might suck.
 
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1. yeah? doesn't look like it.

2. cool, and i commend you for that...so why don't you actually take a look at your other tier lists and how they've ranked their starters...and tell me again cyndaquil is a b-tier? since you're sooo much better at it than i am, never mind the fact i wasn't even there when you were working on these lists. as for my ''circlejerk'', i've made new arguments and points, you do realize i flat out made arguments for cyndaquil even without the rare candies (my entire last post) and optimizing the rare candies even without using them on quilava?!

3. this ''blatant favoring a mon'' tripe was disproven a few comments ago, given that it benefits the entire team and i even argued that as a major reason to endorse the rare candy strategy, even regardless of whether quilava is the recipient or not. i apologize if i wasn't clearer. as for raising mons by level equally...that requires the mons to be at the same level, and we both know well that's not often the case. even fighting the elite four can cause your team's levels to go out of whack, and a lot of pokemon in the wild will start at levels lower than your team.

4. that's fine, and i'm completely willing to do that. why not just suggest a mon instead of ranting at me? if you can't do that, i would be happy to make a case for staryu in b minimum, crystal only. both hm-surf and the water stone can be obtained around the same time you can get staryu in crystal, you just need dst manipulation. staryu starts at a fairly high level (l20) and if you're willing to make some detours, can be obtained even before the morty fight and evolved before it as well. with surf in hand, starmie can bulldoze through morty's gym and morty himself as well as (provided starmie's in the 30s) jasmine. you should be able to get tm-thunder after beating olivine lighthouse + team rocket base, which goes with rain dance and allows you to wallop pryce and chuck too. you can then get tm-icy wind from pryce for starmie, icy wind and thunder give clair trouble.

rain + thunder + surf + icy wind crushes will, does pretty well against koga (annoying crobat gets crushed by a no-miss thunder), does okay against bruno, and can wipe the floor with karen short of her umbreon. lance's pokemon all get hit hard and super effectively too. that's close to s-tier performance imho, better than even totodile can muster. the only caveat is that staryu and starmie are very tm dependent. detours might suck.
Look man, this is just basic democracy at this point. You proposed a change. More people voted against it than they agreed with you.

At some point, you gotta accept that L. Happens to everyone in all Tier threads. :mehowth:
 
Look man, this is just basic democracy at this point. You proposed a change. More people voted against it than they agreed with you.

At some point, you gotta accept that L. Happens to everyone in all Tier threads. :mehowth:
which change? y'all haven't even addressed my non-rare candy argument for cyndaquil.

the hilarious part is that you're the one still talking about cyndaquil when i'm already willing to talk about staryu.
 
the hilarious part is that you're the one still talking about cyndaquil when i'm already willing to talk about staryu.
I did say I was skipping your most recent posts because everything was already said. :mehowth:

But Staryu should be interesting. It got brutalized with the nerf bat from RBY, but it's not really a bad mon in Crystal. Availability kinda hurts tho.

What would be a good low-cost moveset for it? Surf / Icy Wind / Recover / Filler? Been a while since I last used it.
 
I did say I was skipping your most recent posts because everything was already said. :mehowth:

But Staryu should be interesting. It got brutalized with the nerf bat from RBY, but it's not really a bad mon in Crystal. Availability kinda hurts tho.

What would be a good low-cost moveset for it? Surf / Icy Wind / Recover / Filler? Been a while since I last used it.
how does availability hurt at all? you can pick staryu up once you can get to ecruteak, the water stone requires a short detour to west of mahogany through mt. mortar which isn't remotely long and probably won't require any rng manipulation whatsoever if you have no other numbers saved (i didn't even need rng manipulation in my current playthrough or multiple before it), the good rod is in olivine itself and guarantees l20 pokemon with staryu being somewhat uncommon but hardly anywhere as rare as a swarm pokemon, and the tm-surf is available around the same time.

a good low-cost moveset for staryu would be surf/icy wind/rain dance/recover. this movepool makes team rocket, jasmine, and (even without rain dance) morty a cinch, and even chuck would very likely fall to starmie as rain-boosted surfs can wear down poliwrath while recover undoes any damage poliwrath can do back to you. clair goes without saying, though equipping a nevermeltice would help and i'd be wary of kingdra's paralysis as well as hyper beam. this is another reason you should get thunder - thunder can paralyze kingdra back and does more damage than icy wind.

rain dance + surf is really good at cleaning up routes and even resists. with icy wind in tow and some pp healing items, you could thoroughly nail will, bruno, koga, and karen with this movepool pretty easily. just watch out for annoying stat moves, vileplume's petal dance, and/or pp loss and make sure rain dance is already up when fighting karen's houndoom so you can kill it before it kills you. lance's non-thunder dragons, aerodactyl, and charizard all despise starmie, and starmie could likely live a thunder with her speed and kill d-nite faster with icy wind while recovering anyway against a safer mon like aero, zard, or non-thunder d-nite. you don't even need thunder for starmie to do really well, though it only helps.

i will still say that thunder is really, really not hard to get all by the rocket mission or at absolute worst by clair (you'd have to be seriously unfortunate or flat out bad with your money to not get it before then), and if you're good with your money you could get it before your fifth badge. it allows you to guarantee the defeat of chuck, crush pryce (whose seel and dewgong would be harder to ko with surf), and beat lance's gyarados.
 
you can pick staryu up once you can get to ecruteak
I thought it was fished up in Cianwood, which would require Surf.

If it's on the huge list of water mons that come in with the Good Rod, then it's a very interesting prospect.

a good low-cost moveset for staryu would be surf/icy wind/rain dance/recover. this movepool makes team rocket, jasmine, and (even without rain dance) morty a cinch, and even chuck would very likely fall to starmie as rain-boosted surfs can wear down poliwrath while recover undoes any damage poliwrath can do back to you. clair goes without saying, though equipping a nevermeltice would help and i'd be wary of kingdra's paralysis as well as hyper beam. this is another reason you should get thunder - thunder can paralyze kingdra back and does more damage than icy wind.

rain dance + surf is really good at cleaning up routes and even resists. with icy wind in tow and some pp healing items, you could thoroughly nail will, bruno, koga, and karen with this movepool pretty easily. just watch out for annoying stat moves, vileplume's petal dance, and/or pp loss and make sure rain dance is already up when fighting karen's houndoom so you can kill it before it kills you. lance's non-thunder dragons, aerodactyl, and charizard all despise starmie, and starmie could likely live a thunder with her speed and kill d-nite faster with icy wind while recovering anyway against a safer mon like aero, zard, or non-thunder d-nite. you don't even need thunder for starmie to do really well, though it only helps.

i will still say that thunder is really, really not hard to get all by the rocket mission or at absolute worst by clair (you'd have to be seriously unfortunate or flat out bad with your money to not get it before then), and if you're good with your money you could get it before your fifth badge. it allows you to guarantee the defeat of chuck, crush pryce (whose seel and dewgong would be harder to ko with surf), and beat lance's gyarados.
Yeah, Thunder by Late-Game ain't really farfetched because once you're past the mass shopping spree in Goldenrod, money starts to stack nicely.

But it all depends on the rest of your team's needs and Thunder is more of a luxury that sets Starmie apart from the rest of the waters not a true necessity.

Good point with Rain Dance tbh, not a lot of competition and without the likes of TBolt, Ice Beam or Psychic available, it's perfectly fair to assume it's a lock for Starmie. I was personally thinking about an extra HM like Waterfall so you don't need to carry a mook from New Bark to the Indigo Plateau.
 
OK, guys. I've thought long about the premise of using Rare Candies as TMs and once you think along those lines, the resources management is an issue. Look, Clefairy and Nidoran in RBY needs to be fed TMs but they don't hog all the resources as much as Cyndaquil does as aegon shows here. For this reason, even though aegon is passionate about this subject, I'd say that no, Cyndaquil does not deserve A at this current time.

While we're on the subject, I want to repeat; this is just a Pokemon list in a game released 20 years ago. Chill out and listen to other people. It is on a forum for discussion purposes. Talk about the subject, not the people behind it. I've remained silent since I was busy with work but if things go out of hand, I'll have to ask the mods to give you'll a time out.

As for Staryu, I think it deserves a point for discussion. Let me quote myself earlier in the thread
Its stats aren't amazing but there are distributed appropriately for in-game runs. It also comes at a high level and can be taught Surf immediately which saves time compared to other Pokemon you could be using.

It gets both Thunder and Blizzard, neither of them are exactly priorities, so you can get them at your leisure, but I'd definitely go for Thunder first.
Icy Wind is a thing and Electric is just great in-game. It can also tear the game apart with Rain Dance if you choose to do a slight detour to Azalea after getting Fly.

What really sets Staryu apart is how easily it gets to evolve and how powerful Starmie is. Surf off Starmie hits like a freight train and you can get a Water Stone with some manipulation right after Morty.

Note: You can make the process less annoying by only registering the NPC in your Pokegear.


I think the early Water Stone only applies to Crystal so if we rank it up, I'll make a separate list for it. Volt-Ikazuchi I think Thunder is pretty important since good Electrics and Grass are hard to come by in GSC while Starmie owns those match-ups. Rain Dance allows you to have a nuke in Surf too.

aegon the unlikely Recover means nothing in an in-game list considering Moomoo Milks and Hyper Potions are cheap. It just hogs a movepool slot better used for sweeping.

As for the cows, I'm on the fence. They're rare and hard to catch. Plus, they have bad match-ups against bosses even with Return. I'm not going to pretend Surf helps because they have poor Special. Girafarig has an advantage over the bulls on the Morty match-up but feels the same otherwise. It's not a huge leap to move all of them to B together with Rattata.

Lastly, I want to emphasize that if the majority disagrees with you, just move on without trying to keep pushing your point. It is not a good look. I've seen this behavior in other in-game threads that I've been a part of. Don't make me ask a mod to ban you because I like a good discussion and value what contrubuters say.
 
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testing cyndaquil, rattata and sentret due to the discussion on recent pages
the difference in levels takes into account the difference in catch levels (cyndaquil is lv6 when rattata lv4 and sentret lv3 join), and level-up rate (cyndaquil grows faster than rattata or sentret)

ivs are set to 9 atk, 8 everything else

Cyndaquil Lv11 (w/Berry): It's boned because of Pidgey's Mud-Slap - Cyndaquil 4HKOs Pidgey with Tackle, and by the time it reaches Pidgeotto, the accuracy debuffs weigh it down too much. It must be at Lv12 to learn Ember and 2HKO Pidgey and 3HKO Pidgeotto.

Sentret Lv9 (w/Berry): Sentret 3HKOs Pidgey and 6HKOs Pidgeotto with Tackle. Sentret can use Defense Curl to be able to tank Pidgey and Pidgeotto, but it still won't be able to defeat both without item assistance until Lv10.

Rattata Lv9 (w/Berry): Rattata 2HKOs Pidgey with Quick Attack after one Tail Whip. Rattata 2HKOs Pidgeotto with Quick Attack after two Leers since it misses out shortly on the 2HKO with one Leer. Can win without items consistently at Lv10.

Quilava Lv18 (w/Berry): Ember OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna, and 2HKOs Scyther.

Rattata Lv15 (w/Pink Bow): Hyper Fang 2HKOs Metapod and Kakuna. Unfortunately it's a 3HKO against Scyther (2HKO with Leer), while Scyther 3HKOs with Fury Cutter and is faster.

Furret Lv15 (w/Pink Bow): Defense Curl on Metapod, then defeat Metapod and Kakuna with Quick Attack (3HKO) or Swift (2HKO). Poison from Kakuna can mess up the plans. Furret 5HKOs Scyther with Quick Attack and 4HKOs with Swift, but it doesn't make a difference.

Quilava Lv18 (w/Berry): Quilava can 2HKO Gastly and Zubat with Ember. Unfortunately Tackle is a 8HKO (and Swift a 5HKO) while Croconaw's Water Gun is a 3HKO, so Smoke Screen or the Mud-Slap TM become necessary for a chance to win.

Rattata L15 (w/Pink Bow): Rattata can't beat Gastly without Mud-Slap. With the Mud-Slap TM, Rattata 3HKOs Gastly. Rattata 2HKOs Zubat with Hyper Fang. Rattata 2HKOs Croconaw after a Tail Whip, while Croconaw 3HKOs with Water Gun.

Furret Lv15 (w/Pink Bow): Furret can't beat Gastly without Mud-Slap. With the Mud-Slap TM, Furret can 3HKO Gastly. Furret 2HKOs Zubat with Quick Attack or Swift TM. Furret 5HKOs Croconaw with Quick Attack (4HKO with the Swift TM)

my observation indicates that there are important battles where cyndaquil is clearly worse than the normals in the earlygame, and it's mostly the bugsy match-up that is an important advantage

edit: i'm planning to use tauros, too
 
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I thought it was fished up in Cianwood, which would require Surf.

If it's on the huge list of water mons that come in with the Good Rod, then it's a very interesting prospect.



Yeah, Thunder by Late-Game ain't really farfetched because once you're past the mass shopping spree in Goldenrod, money starts to stack nicely.

But it all depends on the rest of your team's needs and Thunder is more of a luxury that sets Starmie apart from the rest of the waters not a true necessity.

Good point with Rain Dance tbh, not a lot of competition and without the likes of TBolt, Ice Beam or Psychic available, it's perfectly fair to assume it's a lock for Starmie. I was personally thinking about an extra HM like Waterfall so you don't need to carry a mook from New Bark to the Indigo Plateau.
1. nah, olivine. you don't need surf at all, i just went straight there and fished staryu out with a good rod. it just needs to be night.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Staryu_(Pokémon)#Game_locations

2. glad we agree for once on something lol. late game thunder (and late game fire blast, which someone ironically mocked me for) is very possible. i'd even argue both are, both to be factual as well as a little petty - assuming you haven't shelled out money for one of these tms ever before.

OK, guys. I've thought long about the premise of using Rare Candies as TMs and once you think along those lines, the resources management is an issue. Look, Clefairy and Nidoran in RBY needs to be fed TMs but they don't hog all the resources as much as Cyndaquil does as aegon shows here. For this reason, even though aegon is passionate about this subject, I'd say that no, Cyndaquil does not deserve A at this current time.

While we're on the subject, I want to repeat; this is just a Pokemon list in a game released 20 years ago. Chill out and listen to other people. It is on a forum for discussion purposes. Talk about the subject, not the people behind it. I've remained silent since I was busy with work but if things go out of hand, I'll have to ask the mods to give you'll a time out.

As for Staryu, I think it deserves a point for discussion. Let me quote myself earlier in the thread
Its stats aren't amazing but there are distributed appropriately for in-game runs. It also comes at a high level and can be taught Surf immediately which saves time compared to other Pokemon you could be using.

It gets both Thunder and Blizzard, neither of them are exactly priorities, so you can get them at your leisure, but I'd definitely go for Thunder first.
Icy Wind is a thing and Electric is just great in-game. It can also tear the game apart with Rain Dance if you choose to do a slight detour to Azalea after getting Fly.

What really sets Staryu apart is how easily it gets to evolve and how powerful Starmie is. Surf off Starmie hits like a freight train and you can get a Water Stone with some manipulation right after Morty.

Note: You can make the process less annoying by only registering the NPC in your Pokegear.


I think the early Water Stone only applies to Crystal so if we rank it up, I'll make a separate list for it. Volt-Ikazuchi I think Thunder is pretty important since good Electrics and Grass are hard to come by in GSC while Starmie owns those match-ups. Rain Dance allows you to have a nuke in Surf too.

aegon the unlikely Recover means nothing in an in-game list considering Moomoo Milks and Hyper Potions are cheap. It just hogs a movepool slot better used for sweeping.

As for the cows, I'm on the fence. They're rare and hard to catch. Plus, they have bad match-ups against bosses even with Return. I'm not going to pretend Surf helps because they have poor Special. Girafarig has an advantage over the bulls on the Morty match-up but feels the same otherwise. It's not a huge leap to move all of them to B together with Rattata.

Lastly, I want to emphasize that if the majority disagrees with you, just move on without trying to keep pushing your point. It is not a good look. I've seen this behavior in other in-game threads that I've been a part of. Don't make me ask a mod to ban you because I like a good discussion and value what contrubuters say.
1. you can get starmie before morty too, actually. starmie does really well in that gym and can literally level up there.

2. moo moo milks are time consuming to get many of, hyper potions cost money that could be saved or used elsewhere. recover i agree is not the best choice (thunder is) but it's great for a no cost run as Volt-Ikazuchi and i discussed.

testing cyndaquil, rattata and sentret due to the discussion on recent pages
the difference in levels takes into account the difference in catch levels (cyndaquil is lv6 when rattata lv4 and sentret lv3 join), and level-up rate (cyndaquil grows faster than rattata or sentret)

ivs are set to 9 atk, 8 everything else

Cyndaquil Lv11 (w/Berry): It's boned because of Pidgey's Mud-Slap - Cyndaquil 4HKOs Pidgey with Tackle, and by the time it reaches Pidgeotto, the accuracy debuffs weigh it down too much. It must be at Lv12 to learn Ember and 2HKO Pidgey and 3HKO Pidgeotto.

Sentret Lv9 (w/Berry): Sentret 3HKOs Pidgey and 6HKOs Pidgeotto with Tackle. Sentret can use Defense Curl to be able to tank Pidgey and Pidgeotto, but it still won't be able to defeat both without item assistance until Lv10.

Rattata Lv9 (w/Berry): Rattata 2HKOs Pidgey with Quick Attack after one Tail Whip. Rattata 2HKOs Pidgeotto with Quick Attack after two Leers since it misses out shortly on the 2HKO with one Leer. Can win without items consistently at Lv10.

Quilava Lv18 (w/Berry): Ember OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna, and 2HKOs Scyther.

Rattata Lv15 (w/Pink Bow): Hyper Fang 2HKOs Metapod and Kakuna. Unfortunately it's a 3HKO against Scyther (2HKO with Leer), while Scyther 3HKOs with Fury Cutter and is faster.

Furret Lv15 (w/Pink Bow): Defense Curl on Metapod, then defeat Metapod and Kakuna with Quick Attack (3HKO) or Swift (2HKO). Poison from Kakuna can mess up the plans. Furret 5HKOs Scyther with Quick Attack and 4HKOs with Swift, but it doesn't make a difference.

Quilava Lv18 (w/Berry): Quilava can 2HKO Gastly and Zubat with Ember. Unfortunately Tackle is a 8HKO (and Swift a 5HKO) while Croconaw's Water Gun is a 3HKO, so Smoke Screen or the Mud-Slap TM become necessary for a chance to win.

Rattata L15 (w/Pink Bow): Rattata can't beat Gastly without Mud-Slap. With the Mud-Slap TM, Rattata 3HKOs Gastly. Rattata 2HKOs Zubat with Hyper Fang. Rattata 2HKOs Croconaw after a Tail Whip, while Croconaw 3HKOs with Water Gun.

Furret Lv15 (w/Pink Bow): Furret can't beat Gastly without Mud-Slap. With the Mud-Slap TM, Furret can 3HKO Gastly. Furret 2HKOs Zubat with Quick Attack or Swift TM. Furret 5HKOs Croconaw with Quick Attack (4HKO with the Swift TM)

my observation indicates that there are important battles where cyndaquil is clearly worse than the normals in the earlygame, and it's mostly the bugsy match-up that is an important advantage

edit: i'm planning to use tauros, too
why is your cyndaquil at l11 and not l12? sprout tower + prior npcs give you more than enough exp to make l12.
 
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I think the early Water Stone only applies to Crystal so if we rank it up, I'll make a separate list for it. Volt-Ikazuchi I think Thunder is pretty important since good Electrics and Grass are hard to come by in GSC while Starmie owns those match-ups. Rain Dance allows you to have a nuke in Surf too.
It is really important, but it's not something you absolutely *need* before Rain Dance.

Of course if you get it before, say, Chuck, that's optimal. But if you don't have the cash on hand by then, no big deal.

The reason I ask for a "low-cost" moveset is just to have a base that doesn't skew things too much.

aegon the unlikely Recover means nothing in an in-game list considering Moomoo Milks and Hyper Potions are cheap. It just hogs a movepool slot better used for sweeping.
It absolutely does, especially in Starmie's case because it can catch up while saving healing items, which means more money, which means quicker Thunder.

Of course, between an attack and Recover, the offensive move is more important in the long run. But early on? Recover is very good for it.
 
i'm thinking of trying out one of the big normal-types for a run myself. not sure which one (stantler, tauros, or miltank) yet.

i want to see if they're worth the hype and how their presence affects the team's average level. i probably won't use the friend ball on them though and just go straight up with hm strength which i can pick up from olivine that's literally a walk away from ecruteak and a pink bow.
 
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i'm thinking of trying out one of the big normal-types for a run myself. not sure which one (stantler, tauros, or miltank) yet.

i want to see if they're worth the hype and how their presence affects the team's average level. i probably won't use the friend ball on them though and just go straight up with hm strength which i can pick up from olivine that's literally a walk away from ecruteak and a pink bow.
Try Stantler / Miltank then. I can say I'm very unimpressed with Tauros in my recent run. Low EXP group means this thing will be at least 3 - 5 levels below your main party unless you devote more attention to it. It can sweep routes and Rockets but has issues clearing bosses. I'm waiting for Xator_Nova to see if their experience is the same as mine.
 
I'm thinking about running a quick 4 mon test of Weedle, Spearow, Wooper and Tauros.

Tauros needs some real testing, Wooper was also being questioned a while ago, and I'm beginning to question Spearow at S with 2 back-to-back bad matchups in Jasmine and Pryce.

Weedle is just filler. Anyone got anything they want tested?

Edit: Might run Ledyba instead. I need a puncher.
 
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Try Stantler / Miltank then. I can say I'm very unimpressed with Tauros in my recent run. Low EXP group means this thing will be at least 3 - 5 levels below your main party unless you devote more attention to it. It can sweep routes and Rockets but has issues clearing bosses. I'm waiting for Xator_Nova to see if their experience is the same as mine.
cool! i'll go with stantler then.

i'm also thinking of testing bellsprout. although it's not super efficient (so i'm not advocating a or anything), bellsprout can be pretty clutch as a growth sweeper that can also put mons to sleep on the side and hit pretty hard physically. bellsprout can evolve into weepinbell as early as l21, which i perfectly achievable if you train sprout in and around goldenrod and you can potentially get the leaf stone for victreebel right before goldenrod itself.

the only issue is that you'd either have to wait for rng to kick in or make the backtrack to new bark and change the dst. waiting for the former isn't really a bad option if you don't want to evolve bellsprout immediately - you certainly don't need to - and for the latter, a bicycle and access to repels make it relatively manageable if still inconvenient. you can use tm-return and eventually sludge bomb as your fourth move and given victreebel's high attack stat of 105 plus badge boosts, either should serve you pretty well as an option against the hordes of opponents that resist grass.

fun fact, i once defeated bugsy with a growth accumulating bellsprout and whitney too.
 
I'm thinking about running a quick 4 mon test of Weedle, Spearow, Wooper and Tauros.

Tauros needs some real testing, Wooper was also being questioned a while ago, and I'm beginning to question Spearow at S with 2 back-to-back bad matchups in Jasmine and Pryce.

Weedle is just filler. Anyone got anything they want tested?

Edit: Might run Ledyba instead. I need a puncher.
you could test beedrill's harden + fury cutter as a strategy against whitney. x6 hardens should make it very difficult for even rollout to kill you (barring a critical hit obv) and with your badge boost, beedrill should be able to skewer miltank with fury cutter after slaying clefairy first.

part of me wonders if beedrill is really all that bad against major opponents - harden spam could go a long way in cloaking you against falkner and whitney if initiated against their weaker pokemon, fury cutter at max power would greatly compensate for beedrill's otherwise average attack stat, and sludge bomb isn't half bad either. morty walls you, but you wall bugsy and chuck can't do much to you given beedrill quad-resists dynamicpunch as well as can take poliwrath's sub-par surfs. pryce goes down to fury cutter shenanigans too i think, not sure about clair.
 
Try Stantler / Miltank then. I can say I'm very unimpressed with Tauros in my recent run. Low EXP group means this thing will be at least 3 - 5 levels below your main party unless you devote more attention to it. It can sweep routes and Rockets but has issues clearing bosses. I'm waiting for Xator_Nova to see if their experience is the same as mine.
i'm going to post logs later, but i can attest that so far (still around morty) it doesn't perform better than furret or raticate due to the level difference, and there are enemies that tauros simply can't defeat due to a lack of ground-type tms, something that furret and raticate can do (and even then, furret has fire punch for steel types in case a ground tm is too contested)

you could test beedrill's harden + fury cutter as a strategy against whitney. x6 hardens should make it very difficult for even rollout to kill you (barring a critical hit obv) and with your badge boost, beedrill should be able to skewer miltank with fury cutter after slaying clefairy first.

part of me wonders if beedrill is really all that bad against major opponents - harden spam could go a long way in cloaking you against falkner and whitney if initiated against their weaker pokemon, fury cutter at max power would greatly compensate for beedrill's otherwise average attack stat, and sludge bomb isn't half bad either. morty walls you, but you wall bugsy and chuck can't do much to you given beedrill quad-resists dynamicpunch as well as can take poliwrath's sub-par surfs. pryce goes down to fury cutter shenanigans too i think, not sure about clair.
for the record: paras lv17 is able to ohko miltank with fury cutter without access to harden, so i think beedrill should be able to, too

later you give it sludge bomb and equip it with poison barb and go places
 
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i'm going to post logs later, but i can attest that so far (still around morty) it doesn't perform better than furret or raticate due to the level difference, and there are enemies that tauros simply can't defeat due to a lack of ground-type tms
in that case, whoever said all of them belong in the same tier might just be right. i definitely feel more apprehensive about using stantler now lol.

also, has anyone tried meowth? you'd think with his monstrous speed, normal type stab, and access to bite as coverage against ghosts before picking up tm-shadow ball, he'd be a little more popular (his attack stat is equal to aipom's and his exp group is med-fast, not as good as aipom's fast but better than tauros's slow for sure). access to pay day also seems pretty cool given how it can yield you money.
 
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you could test beedrill's harden + fury cutter as a strategy against whitney. x6 hardens should make it very difficult for even rollout to kill you (barring a critical hit obv) and with your badge boost, beedrill should be able to skewer miltank with fury cutter after slaying clefairy first.
I said a QUICK test. Nothing quick about that lmao.

Besides, not a fan of +6 stat boosting sweeps. Takes too long, requires healing in most cases, and it's just a really boring way to play.
 
I said a QUICK test. Nothing quick about that lmao.

Besides, not a fan of +6 stat boosting sweeps. Takes too long, requires healing in most cases, and it's just a really boring way to play.
lol. you only need those strats against the big league opponents, you don't need them against route trainers. they won't slow you down much, but either way, it's up to you what you wanna do. also, if it can defeat major bosses like whitney, that's definitely a major draw in beedrill's favor.

beedrill's not going to be a tier or anything, but performance like that seems c-tier worthy imo.

i'm going to post logs later, but i can attest that so far (still around morty) it doesn't perform better than furret or raticate due to the level difference, and there are enemies that tauros simply can't defeat due to a lack of ground-type tms, something that furret and raticate can do (and even then, furret has fire punch for steel types in case a ground tm is too contested)

for the record: paras lv17 is able to ohko miltank with fury cutter without access to harden, so i think beedrill should be able to, too

later you give it sludge bomb and equip it with poison barb and go places
yeah, i noticed your video about the lv17 paras lol. interesting stuff, and that's what got me thinking.
 
i'm also thinking of testing bellsprout. although it's not super efficient (so i'm not advocating a or anything), bellsprout can be pretty clutch as a growth sweeper that can also put mons to sleep on the side and hit pretty hard physically. bellsprout can evolve into weepinbell as early as l21, which i perfectly achievable if you train sprout in and around goldenrod and you can potentially get the leaf stone for victreebel right before goldenrod itself.

the only issue is that you'd either have to wait for rng to kick in or make the backtrack to new bark and change the dst. waiting for the former isn't really a bad option if you don't want to evolve bellsprout immediately - you certainly don't need to - and for the latter, a bicycle and access to repels make it relatively manageable if still inconvenient. you can use tm-return and eventually sludge bomb as your fourth move and given victreebel's high attack stat of 105 plus badge boosts, either should serve you pretty well as an option against the hordes of opponents that resist grass.

fun fact, i once defeated bugsy with a growth accumulating bellsprout and whitney too.
i didn't see this so as the resident bellsprout stan (?) gonna say a few things

growth is useful early on, but vine whip is your only grass type attack until lv42, which is really late in the game
don't bother with razor leaf, evolve immediately, and once you get to goldenrod, give bellsprout return
sleep powder is your best friend, use it against steels and ghosts. even if victreebel has a disadvantage, it's still doing something
sludge bomb is its best move, so I wouldn't encourage having two mons that need it. get it as soon as possible
vine whip still useful for rock/grounds
endgame set is something like return | sludge bomb | vine whip | sleep powder

worst enemies: morty, will, lance's aerodactyl
 
i didn't see this so as the resident bellsprout stan (?) gonna say a few things

growth is useful early on, but vine whip is your only grass type attack until lv42, which is really late in the game
don't bother with razor leaf, evolve immediately, and once you get to goldenrod, give bellsprout return
sleep powder is your best friend, use it against steels
sludge bomb is its best move, so I wouldn't encourage having two mons that need it. get it as soon as possible
vine whip still useful for rock/grounds
endgame set is something like return | sludge bomb | vine whip | sleep powder
1. not that big a deal imo, vine whip does solid damage after x2 growth (35 x 2 = 70) before stab. sleep powder helps with setup.

2. evolving immediately is my policy. agreed with getting tm-return.

3. agreed on sleep powder.

4. ditto on sludge bomb.

5. yep on vine whip.

6. i actually went sunny day/growth/solarbeam/sludge bomb in one run long ago iirc. it was the bomb, kicked bruno's butt.
 
Try Stantler / Miltank then. I can say I'm very unimpressed with Tauros in my recent run. Low EXP group means this thing will be at least 3 - 5 levels below your main party unless you devote more attention to it. It can sweep routes and Rockets but has issues clearing bosses. I'm waiting for Xator_Nova to see if their experience is the same as mine.

I'm thinking about running a quick 4 mon test of Weedle, Spearow, Wooper and Tauros.

Tauros needs some real testing,
Just want to point out in that context that my Tauros run is tainted with Rare Candies. So the late game performance is maybe exaggerated.

Midgame I didn't face Jasmine for example with Tauros, but instead Pryce. Poliwrath also got dunked on with Return. Can't say Tauros is excellent Mid-Game obviously, but it can do its job.....
However, Mid-Game I remember how bad Raticate was even with a decent movepool, because its bulk is garbage. Even worse was Sentret... I wish someone would post screenshots from those two how they defeat the Gym Leader(s) for its B Rank and better performance.
- - -
I think about trying Miltank and Cyndaquil(never used that one actually in like 20 years!) myself aswell. However, since the term "proper testing" was dropped:

- Do we do something close to "Minimal battles" "Avoid all Wild Mons, Trainers on Routes are fair for EXP" or "Just play whatevs"
- Also we do ignore Red's final battlefor Tier Lists, right? Otherwise this whole endeavor would be kinda pointless.
- We ignore X Items, but NOT healing items yes?
- How many team members are reasonable for a fair test? I always say 3 Mons is fair - even 4 Mons stretched the EXP to much.
- I am still shook about the SET/SWITCH rule...are you guys sure about that??
 
From my experiences with Meowth in HGSS (I know GSC is a different game, but still) I was thoroughly disappointed. Great Speed means nothing when Persian only has 70 base Attack (weaker than even Furret) which falls off incredibly fast. Couple this with better Normals around the same time and I see no real reason to use it. I remember being unimpressed by its damage output around Pryce.

But you have physical Shadow Ball for Will I guess?
 
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