Gen 2 GSC Little Cup

approved by Jellicent
co-lead with Typhlito

GSC Little Cup

Welcome to GSC Little Cup! This is exactly what you would assume from the title: Little Cup, but in Generation Two! Wow! That's exciting, no? A metagame where Leftovers is actually viable in Little Cup? Sign me right up! In GSC Little Cup, many new prominent threats rise, while a lot of Pokemon you'd expect in typical Little Cup have not even been invented just quite yet! What's more, we also have Little Cup with Lovely Kiss, which I will include a full list of in a little bit. Now that we've gone over a bit about the tier and learned a bit about its fundamental changes, let's go a bit more in-depth and look at specific rules, threatlists, moveset changes, and some bans that have taken place. And best of all? No Snorlax in this metagame! No Raikou! No Zapdos! Hurrah!

Typhlito and I are going to be co-running this together. :]

Ruleset:
  • Sleep Clause is ON.
  • Species Clause is ON.
  • OHKO Clause is ON.
  • Evasion Moves Clause is ON.
  • Endless Battle Clause is OFF.
  • The following Pokemon are banned:
    • Scyther
  • The following moves are banned:
    • Sonic Boom
    • Dragon Rage
  • The following items are banned:
    • Gold Berry

Complete List of Eligible Pokemon:
  • Abra
  • Bellsprout
  • Bulbasaur
  • Caterpie
  • Chansey
  • Charmander
  • Chikorita
  • Chinchou
  • Cleffa
  • Cubone
  • Cyndaquil
  • Diglett
  • Doduo
  • Dratini
  • Drowzee
  • Eevee
  • Ekans
  • Elekid
  • Exeggcute
  • Gastly
  • Geodude
  • Goldeen
  • Grimer
  • Growlithe
  • Hoothoot
  • Hoppip
  • Horsea
  • Houndour
  • Igglybuff
  • Kabuto
  • Koffing
  • Krabby
  • Larvitar
  • Machop
  • Magby
  • Magikarp
  • Magnemite
  • Mankey
  • Mareep
  • Marill
  • Meowth
  • Natu
  • Nidoran-Female
  • Nidoran-Male
  • Oddish
  • Omanyte
  • Onix
  • Paras
  • Phanpy
  • Pichu
  • Pidgey
  • Pineco
  • Poliwag
  • Ponyta
  • Porygon
  • Psyduck
  • Rattata
  • Remoraid
  • Rhyhorn
  • Sandshrew
  • Seel
  • Sentret
  • Shellder
  • Slowpoke
  • Slugma
  • Smoochum
  • Snubbull
  • Spearow
  • Spinarak
  • Squirtle
  • Staryu
  • Sunkern
  • Swinub
  • Teddiursa
  • Tentacool
  • Togepi
  • Totodile
  • Tyrogue
  • Venonat
  • Voltorb
  • Vulpix
  • Weedle
  • Wooper
  • Zubat

Set Database:
Moveset Changes:
  • Nidoran-Female, Nidoran-Male, Poliwag, Bellsprout, and Snubbull learn Lovely Kiss.
  • WIP.

Speed Tiers:

  • 16: Diglett, Elekid, Voltorb
  • 15: Abra, Meowth, Poliwag, Ponyta, Staryu
  • 14: Doduo, Gastly, Magby, Magikarp
  • 13: Charmander, Chinchou, Cyndaquil, Houndour, Mankey, Natu, Onix, Rattata, Remoraid, Smoochum, Spearow, Tentacool, Vulpix
  • 12: Eevee, Ekans, Goldeen, Growlithe, Kabuto, Pichu, Pidgey, Psyduck, Zubat
  • 11: Bulbasaur, Caterpie, Chikorita, Dratini, Hoothoot, Hoppip, Horsea, Krabby, Magnemite, Nidoran-M, Seel, Swinub, Venonat, Weedle
  • 10: Bellsprout, Cubone, Drowzee, Exeggcute, Koffing, Larvitar, Machop, Mareep, Marill, Nidoran-F, Omanyte, Phanpy, Porygon, Sandshrew, Shellder, Squirtle, Teddiursa, Totodile, Tyrogue
  • 9: Grimer, Oddish, Paras, Rhyhorn, Snubbull, Spinarak, Sunkern
  • 8: Cleffa, Geodude, Igglybuff, Pineco, Sentret, Slowpoke, Slugma, Togepi, Wooper
As you can tell here, Diglett, Elekid, Voltorb are the fastest Pokemon in the tier. Nothing else outspeeds these three Pokemon! Surprisingly, Onix is in 13, Weedle is in 11, and Magikarp is in 14! Out slow Pokemon are all typical slow Pokemon, so they'll have to be prepared to take powerful hits. The speed tier to outspeed is definitely 10, however, and possibly even 11. These two groups are the most crowded, and we don't have a Choice Scarf to fix our issues!

Threatlist:


Abra
--- Psychic-type
25 / 20 / 15 / 105 / 55 / 90

Abra is a large threat because of how powerful its Psychic is. Psychic 2HKOes a lot of the tier, and works well because Abra is such a speedy little bugger, but it's stopped by bulkier walls like Porygon. Psychic is also great alongside Ice Punch and Fire Punch, making it very difficult to effectively switch into and even counter. Abra's bulk isn't too terrible, but it really shouldn't be taking many. Thunder Wave is also nice to hurt an incoming Pokemon with a shared Speed stat of 15, and can hit the three above it in the 16-tier!


Porygon --- Normal-type
65 / 60 / 70 / 85 / 75 / 40

Porygon makes for a good defensive threat thanks to its solid bulk and decent typing. 85 SpA is especially nice as a wall because it means Porygon's Ice Beam won't be too weak. Unfortunately, Porygon can't learn Recover quite yet, so it is forced to use Rest. Regardless, it's great at walling the variety of threats in this metagame and can spread paralysis consistently, while still spreading chip damage via Ice Beam.


Houndour --- Dark- / Fire-type
45 / 60 / 30 / 80 / 50 / 65

Houndour is looking to be a prominent threat thanks to how hard its Fire Blast's and Crunch's hit. The only Pokemon in the tier to resist the combination is Houndour itself! Houndour's also got a decent Speed tier and not too shabby bulk, and will undoubtedly become a threat. Houndour's typing also gives it nice synergy with many other offensive Pokemon in the tier, like Abra, for example.

Replays:

This is not playable unless it's in [Gen 2] OU option. Be sure to make your Pokemon Level 5! Get out there and play!
 
Last edited:


You may have noticed that Chansey is on this list! In Generation 2, Happiny is not a thing, but Blissey is, hence making Chansey the only Pre-Evolution. However, Chansey is also coming with an insane 41 HP, and a solid 17 SpD. This is where we'd like to hear the community's opinions. Is Chansey broken? Chansey seems great in theory, but it's not able to do much in return because its attacking stats are poor. The main reason we didn't instantly ban Chansey is because of its Defense stat. Nearly any physical attack will break through it (Diglett's Earthquake 2HKOes, for example). We think it's passive, able to be brought down, and we really aren't sure if Chansey is broken yet. So yes, this will be our first suspect test! Please share your thoughts regarding Chansey with us n_n!
 
Hmm.. I'm familiar to an extent with RBY LC [Abra Diglett Staryu Gastly etc dominating].. what main threats are added [so like porygon/chansey now have evolutions so they can be used, whilst you have major newly introduced threats].. I'm curious to understand this. Has this been played anywhere else before?
Typhlito and I were test battling / theorymonning for a few hours last night. You can play it anywhere, because the server hosts GSC. Main new threats are Elekid, Houndour, and Nidoran-M. Nidoran-M is surprisingly great with Lovely Kiss / Thunderbolt / Blizzard / Hidden Power [Poison], as Typh can attest to.
 

Isa

I've never felt better in my life
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I've played GSC LC here and there but with Scyther allowed. It's obviously broken but SHRUG

Chansey is too much for the meta though. The real deal is a CURSE (yes) variant with STAB and a special side coverage move. It donks the meta entirely. ban pls
 

Camden

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I'm guessing this was the meta you were trying to suggest to me last night when I was asleep. Yeah, I'll take a look into it and build a team. It was only a matter of time before this surfaced on Smogon tbh.
 

Isa

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is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
oh yeah, Thief Smoochum is superb. You can come in on Cross Chop from Machop and live guaranteed, trigger your Gold Berry to get back to full, sleep something and then use Thief. Thief in general is just great, honestly.

edit: these speeds are all wrong lol
 
def ban scyther (crazy speed/atk + sd), chansey (curse + softb + bslam + hp ground is unkillable), and maybe consider banning houndour (nothing walls crunch/fblast/hp fight, tho its pretty frail)

edit: nvm scyther already gone
 
oh yeah, Thief Smoochum is superb. You can come in on Cross Chop from Machop and live guaranteed, trigger your Gold Berry to get back to full, sleep something and then use Thief. Thief in general is just great, honestly.

edit: these speeds are all wrong lol
I checked them all on Showdown, what's wrong with them?
 

Isa

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is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
no idea how showdown calcs stats but check on PO, elekid maxes out at 19. i noted that the speeds were off because I know that diglett hits 19 and a bunch of things hits 18 in RBY LC. i'd rather trust PO than PS when it comes to old gens in general.

http://puu.sh/gGKvT/abd40a12ba.png

edit: showdown doesnt show maxed out stats in the teambuilder, but in-game they're automatically maxed.
 
no idea how showdown calcs stats but check on PO, elekid maxes out at 19. i noted that the speeds were off because I know that diglett hits 19 and a bunch of things hits 18 in RBY LC. i'd rather trust PO than PS when it comes to old gens in general.

http://puu.sh/gGKvT/abd40a12ba.png

edit: showdown doesnt show maxed out stats in the teambuilder, but in-game they're automatically maxed.
Oh. I don't use PO, but I'll install it and fix the Speed tiers in a few hours o_o!
 

v

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we used to play this during DPP. chansey is broken as fuck. also why is gold berry banned if berry juice isnt? should be both or none since theyre both essentially full hp back.
 
I don't really think Scyther needs to be banned, nor does Chansey definitely. I remember making this and this posts on a PO thread regarding the scyther ban over two years ago and basically I haven't played GSC LC since. Anyway, I agree Scyther is bannable, but Chansey is definitely fine, so is Porygon.

#trollberry
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
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I've played GSC LC here and there but with Scyther allowed. It's obviously broken but SHRUG

Chansey is too much for the meta though. The real deal is a CURSE (yes) variant with STAB and a special side coverage move. It donks the meta entirely. ban pls
I wouldn't call it unbeatable since there are a few options to handle it. That set does look awfully familiar to curse lax so it's bound to have the same shortcomings. Haze can stop any sort of set up it attempts to pull off. Reflect, status and cross chop also does a number to it. It will definitely need to be tested more thoroughly.
 
You don't deal with curse chansey the same way you deal with curselax in OU because the LC metagame plays infinitely faster. You basically have to kill it because it has time to set up, and that's how you handle Scyther as well. I know this makes it sound that they would be broken but the reality is that this is the way you deal with every single Pokemon in this metagame. Attack, attack and keep attacking.

I, in fact, tend to run non-curse chansey because I find T-wave more useful overall.
 
we used to play this during DPP. chansey is broken as fuck. also why is gold berry banned if berry juice isnt? should be both or none since theyre both essentially full hp back.
Gold Berry was banned just because Chansey is allowed, so it will be affected by it more than Berry Juice and tougher to break down. It's really not worth a ban besides this, because nothing else can use it fully, but Berry Juice was allowed because we didn't think it was really broken. Instantly healing is great, sure, but we haven't decided to ban it yet. Gold Berry is banned and Berry Juice is not because Gold Berry is just an improved version and pushes Chansey even more.
 
Gold Berry was banned just because Chansey is allowed, so it will be affected by it more than Berry Juice and tougher to break down. It's really not worth a ban besides this, because nothing else can use it fully, but Berry Juice was allowed because we didn't think it was really broken. Instantly healing is great, sure, but we haven't decided to ban it yet. Gold Berry is banned and Berry Juice is not because Gold Berry is just an improved version and pushes Chansey even more.
This looks like a really arbitrary ban in my eyes. Much worse than the hp legends ban tbh. Either ban all three healing berries or ban none, but the initial approach should be to ban none.
 
Imo, the normal Berry should be allowed but Berry Juice and Gold Berry should not. 20 and 30 hp healing, respectively, in LC is basically getting back to full for the majority of the cast. You would basically be playing a game where either you OHKO your opponent or any damaging move that does more than 50% damage is obsolete when used for the first time.
 

Snaquaza

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Well I don't know much about GSC or LC, but I guess I could post here since unfixable linked me

Cubone seems like a threat in this metagame, while its stats are quiet underwhelming and especially its speed is mediocre, it has one thing that makes it excellent: Thick Club. The Thick Club boosts its attack to insane levels. When combined with a good STAB, this will allow it to be a decent wallbreaker in this metagame. It will probably not be too stally, but since this is GSC and Chansey is allowed, it'll probably still be useful! It gets decent coverage with Earthquake, Rock Slide and Hidden Power, while you're also able to use special coverage to beat certain Pokemon like Grass and Water types. It even gets Swords Dance and Belly Drum if you're into that, but this metagame shouldn't be as stally as OU, and there will probably not be many setup opportunities. Also, while it's power and coverage are great, it's speed is quite lacking since it's at the 10 tier, which doesn't outspeed a lot when fully invested. It's bulk is also not great, as while it's not terrible you won't survive more than one hit. Luckily its Ground typing will probably be useful agains the top dog Elekid, and there are not a lot of good resists in this tier.

Houndour gets Thief if you're into that, this can be good if you used your berry and want to prevent the opponents one from activating. Niche but it'll probably not use all moveslots either way.

Chinchou also seems good! It gets great coverage for this tier and is at a good speed tier. It gets Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt as STAB and Coverage, which have amazing coverage which is not resisted by anything in the tier. Its typing causes it to be only really afraid of Grass types, as Ground types can be hit SE before they move with a STAB Water move, and its unique as a Water type not hit SE by Electric moves, which causes Elekid to be unable to check it.

There seem to be many more viable Pokemon, but I'll make a team first and seek some matches.. after my test week.
 
Alright, after discussing this with Typh we've come to the following conclusion:
  • Scyther remains banned.
  • Chansey remains unbanned.
  • Gold Berry remains banned.
  • Berry Juice remains unbanned.
Scyther is a Pokemon people didn't really have an issue with keeping banned, and Typh and I had a test battle with Scyther and it was just way too insane. Its Speed tier is incredible, firstly, and this is further compounded by its high Attack stat. Swords Dance makes Scyther an even larger threat, but what's more is that its STAB combination is able to power through nearly all of the tier. If a Pokemon Scyther doesn't like comes in, it can Baton Pass these boosts to a teammate. Speaking of Baton Pass, the capability in these sets was just way too high. Scyther could easily AgiliPass into Cubone, and what then? Cubone could decimate teams entirely thanks to Scyther's abilities. Scyther had no cost to using, it was just way too good and easy to fit onto nearly any of the teams it wanted too. I paired it with Diglett, and let me tell you, it was not a good core to face. Elekid was an excellent way to check Scyther, but Diglett just beats it flat out. Scyther's ability to muscle through nearly all of the tier with little to no team support is what was the nail in the coffin for Scyther and the reason it is remaining banned. There will be no plans to unban it in the future.

Typhlito will post reasoning on Chansey, Gold Berry, and Berry Juice in a moment.
 

Typhlito

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Chansey is a somewhat controversial Pokemon, but we do not feel it is too much for the tier to handle. With many common physical attackers in the tier, like Elekid or Cubone, Chansey was forced out easily. Curse sets are annoying, but the offensive pressure placed on it was too high and we both found trouble using Chansey. Chansey's HP and Special Defense are excellent, and its bulk is very tough to break through in general, but the offensive pressure being placed on Chansey and the passiveness of it as a whole was why we leaned to unban it. However, I know many people are very cautious about this and will be upset we did not ban it. Personally, we both went in with a mindset of banning it because we both thought it was too powerful at first, but then we played a few matches with it and we both changed our mind. I'm sure that people will continue to fight to ban it, so we will definitely be very open to banning it later down the road. But for now, Typh and I both voted to not ban it and we will keep it that way for a bit. Please read below for more information on this.

Gold Berry is another controversial ban that we've decided not to lift. Gold Berry is actually a very large reason why Chansey is unbanned. Berry Juice isn't even half of Chansey's health, while Gold Berry is 3/4 of it. Gold Berry would boost it way too much, and this is why we chose to ban Gold Berry so that we could keep Chansey in the tier. However, if Gold Berry is still frowned upon banning, then we will be obligated to ban Chansey and unban Gold Berry. This is a ban I know that people didn't like much, but we think it's necessary to prevent Chansey from becoming even more powerful and dominant than it is at the moment. Berry Juice, on the other hand, will not be banned. The reasoning for this is because Berry Juice doesn't inherently break anything with its presence in the tier. Chansey doesn't become broken due to it, and nothing else really minds having it in the tier. One could argue that keeping it is bad for the tier because everything gets instant recovery, but that's not bad in our eyes. Just like in the following generations, Berry Juice will be given a chance. However, if people feel that Berry Juice is broken later down the road, we will ban both it and Gold Berry, and then people can use Regular Berry. Either option works, but we don't feel Berry Juice is broken at the moment. Feel free to discuss this! After coming to a conclusion with unfixable, this is what we co-worked on:

unfix and I were trying to figure out how to make the metagame the most enjoyable, and we figured that the best way to do this is through a complex ban. Please discuss which option you enjoy the most and then we'll go from there!
  1. Ban Soft-Boiled, unban Gold Berry, unban Berry Juice.
  2. Unban Soft-Boiled, ban Gold Berry, ban Berry Juice.
  3. Unban Soft-Boiled, ban Gold Berry, unban Berry Juice.
and a 4th one

4. Ban Chansey, unban Gold Berry, unban Berry Juice.

Basically, we're trying to find a way to nerf something to make Chansey not as broken; however, we need your opinions! Soft-Boiled is only learned by Chansey in GSC LC, so if we ban it then Chansey will be nerfed enough to make Gold Berry worthy of unbanning. This is our first option. For our second option, we ban all healing items and add Berry Juice, which will effect the metagame by a large amount. If we are to keep it as is, then we pick our third option. These options are supposed to make Chansey easier to deal with in some way, and these are the ways we came up with. However, if we can't find a way to do so and we, as a community, come to the conclusion that a complex ban is just not worth it, we will end up banning Chansey. We'd prefer not to do so, because we like its presence in the tier, but if that's what it takes then we will do so. If you have any other alternative options, then feel free to suggest them! unfix and I went through many different options before coming to the conclusion of these four.

Right now, we don't feel anything is broken besides *possibly* Houndour, but that's another story! Feel free to discuss these bans and if you feel one of them is incorrect, please do not hold back from telling us n_n.
 
I fail to see how Gold Berry Chansey is broken at all so the most reasonable option for me would be 2. Either get rid of none or get rid of both. Normally you'd argue that a certain Pokemon is overpowered, or a certain Pokemon with a certain move, but ultimately it's hard to tell whether an item is broken or not because it's something all Pokemon can make equal use of. It's like Leftovers in OU. It just makes the metagame play [a little bit] different. Maybe because of this the choice of banning the berries just comes down to what makes the metagame more fun.

I'm fine with the Scyther ban because I understand it has the potential to be gamebreaking. The reason is just its unpredictability though. If you for example ban miracleberry, sub and endure on Scyther (WHICH I'M NOT SUGGESTING) it would barely be a top ~5 Pokemon.
 

Typhlito

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Well gold berry Chaney isn't exactly broken. The reasoning behind it is that Chaney is probably the best pokemon in the tier by a good margin with it when you also take into account that it's the only pokemon with access to recovery outside of rest. We just thought that if Chaney was hindered a bit due to the lack of gold berry, it would be more balanced compared to the other pokemon but if you think gold berry Chaney should be a thing, we will consider allowing it or just removing both berries after more testing is done.
 

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