Gen 2 GSC NU Discussion

[Rabia]

All yap goes here that pertains to Generation 2 NU! This can include team dumps, general metagame development observations, or viability rankings changes.

 

[JensenDale]

Wanted to make this post to go over some thoughts I've had from the metagame over the last many months.

Since I've started this tier in around Sept/October 2024 time, I've noticed many changes in the metagame as a whole that are very important to note, and it feels like there's new improvements and strategies that come up with every tournament iteration.

If I've gathered anything from the last couple of iterations of GSC play, this guy has been popping up a lot more lately:



To be honest building around this one mon has been a bit horrific for me, especially thinking about it on the lead position. Maybe others will disagree but I think the power of this mon is so large for many reasons. To sum up, it creates a large advantage at game start, has options to snowball to win, has options to take out key targets, and this is something any player needs to be prepped for at lead, and there are still 5 unrevealed mons to worry about. Octillery is the best special attacker in the tier, and it also has a super effective move in Surf against Sudowoodo. Max, without crit, that does 91% only to the Sudowoodo, leaving the option to Selfdestruct. Furthermore, with options like Thief, Curse, Rock Slide, Earthquake, when played correctly this mon can spiral completely out of control.

Not to say there isn't a skill ceiling with the mon, it is very high as well and tricky to pull off. However that being said there are a lot of options for a Sudowoodo at the lead position, and even in the backline, and this constricts a lot of options for the opponent. I hate not having options so I wanted to make a team to curb this issue:



This team isn't a complete counter to the structures that Sudowoodo enjoys most, I think it is a good team that has a mu advantage against that, and also can do well into a lot of other structures. When I make a team I like to focus on giving myself options, and I think this lead/supporting cast does the job right.

Dewgong is the only water type that can live one Selfdestruct from Sudowoodo, around 87% of the time. This set prioritizes trying to force switches, which becomes a bit more useful when spikes are up. Upon using this team in a tour it is very apparent how much spikes helps this team out, since being unable to get spikes up pretty much auto lost me the game on the spot. Game linked here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2nu-856125

I did talk with MrSoup after the game and maybe Octillery would work a bit better, and even on second thought I don't think Exeggcute pulled as much weight as I was hoping for personally. I think something that can provide some pressure like Rhyhorn would've been better, be a better switch into the fires, it can roar and curse up as well, but I'll be testing those variants out in the future.

EDIT: I talked with BeeOrSomething about this as well, and he actually made a couple of edits to the team, which I think would've done a lot better in the match, and is just a good team:



Now, to break off of that, I would like to share some thoughts I have about some key parts of the meta:

- I think Persian is in a rough spot right now. I was trying to find a lot of areas to build with it as a lead and it just didn't feel strong enough at all. I think from now on the Rest Talk set works a lot better for the time being, as a fast attacker into mons like Rapidash and Dugtrio, although proceed with caution when building with this mon at all in my opinion.

- Stantler stocks are through the roof. It's a mon that can threaten a lot of common structures, and always leaves options left in a match. There are multiple good sets with this out, my favorite being
@ Leftovers
- Return/Frustration
- Earthquake
- Light Screen
- Curse

this set was first shown to me during GSCPL V by my teammate Sanke Carp, and he was right it is gas.

- Sunny Day is incredibly threatening in this meta at the moment. Bee brought a Sunny Day triple explosion team against me in the Open which left me astounded (also had our buddy sudowoodo). I really find this type of team problematic to be building against but it is what it is.

- I think that Xatu stocks, even though still high, are going down little by little. It is fantastic on spikes teams, but I don't know how well I feel about putting it on anything outside of that. It's not as much as Xatu getting worse moreso Spikes teams in general are just getting competition. I do think Spikesless has gotten a lot better since I've started.

- I think Protect is incredibly undervalued. There are quite a few mons that can run it in my opinion, I know it can fit on Dewgong and Xatu, however there are mons like Chinchou , Gloom , even Dugtrio (on very niche structures) that could make it work. With how much boom is in the meta I think it can work.

- I do think that where the meta is at the moment is very good. It has a lot of skill impression and I feel like there is more to be done, and more strategies to be looked at as well. There has been a rise in Sunny Day, Triple Explo, some really clean stall structures [oma /tenta stall and bp stall], there still is more to be shown with bp, and lots more just with a few months and I can't wait to see where this is at by the time of the next big GSC NU tour.

- Lastly, I just wanted to say thank you for reading if you've made it this far. If you want to add some other thoughts about the tier lets get this discussion going!

 

[BeeOrSomething]

A Guide To Team Structures in GSC NeverUsed

Rapidash Xatu Spikes


Dash Xatu Spikes is a staple of offense in GSC NU. Rapidash and Xatu individually are strong and fast special attackers with solid defensive utility, stabilizing your team against threats like Weezing, Gloom, Primeape, and more. Rapidash also helps greatly against Ninetales, Flareon, Fearow, and Magnemite, taking pressure off of Xatu to break through them. However, they share common vulnerabilities to Pokemon like Dewgong, Octillery, Sudowoodo, and Porygon. Pineco (or Delibird)'s Spikes are a perfect remedy, significantly boosting the offensive output of not just Rapidash and Xatu, but also their teammates, while being useful pressure against dangerous Pokemon like Porygon, Stantler, and Primeape. Spikes help the two work together to overwhelm these checks, chipping away at and dismantling the opposing team. With a Water-type like Octillery or Dewgong to defend against grounds and pressure opposing Octillery, and a way to defend against Curse Normal-types like Primeape or Pupitar, the team is able to defensively handle almost anything you can throw at it while keeping maximum offensive pressure and still giving you room to fit an additional offensive threat in the 6th slot. However, the structure's fast-and-loose nature and offensive build make it extra prone to playing mistakes or being overwhelmed by explosions or stacking Curse users.

Example Teams

Cat Dash Xatu Spikes


Sudo Dash Xatu Spikes


Deer Pup Dash Xatu Spikes


Weezing Gong Dash Xatu Spikes


Dugtrio Dash Xatu Spikes

Dewgong Spikes


Still wanting Spikes, but looking for a bulkier and more stable team? Consider Dewgong Spikes! Dewgong + Weezing offers a less aggressive but much sturdier alternative to Octillery + Rapidash, trading immediate power and some speed to be more resilient against threats like Xatu, Rapidash, Primeape, Dugtrio, Pupitar, and other Weezing. However, this structure still cannot be underestimated offensively, as its more defensive build just serves to choke you out while still incorporating plenty of room to fit strong threats that can lay the hurt with Spikes down. The structure is perfectly capable at keeping the pace screaming if need be, but the ability to control the game and slow it down can be ruinous if the opponent doesn't play carefully. The choice to use Dewgong and Weezing over Octillery and Rapidash is not completely free though, as while they bring plenty of benefits, Weezing and especially Dewgong have their fair share of weaknesses. Dewgong can give Octillery a chance to heal from even low health, and it lets in Kingler completely for free, an especially huge weakness if the team opts to forgo Xatu as they often (though not always) do. Perhaps even more pressing is Sunny Day Ninetales, as without a Rapidash or Octillery in the way, only the odd Flareon can prevent it from dominating the game in most cases.

Example Teams

Pup Lee Gong Spikes


Nair Pup Gong Spikes


Cat Xatu Gong Spikes


Xatu Rhyhorn Gong Spikes


Flareon Gong Spikes
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Porygon Dugtrio Gong Spikes

Dewgong Spikeless


Spikeless pushes the bulkiness of Dewgong + Weezing even further, slowing the pace down even more by completely forgoing Spikes. Doing this, the team becomes extraordinarily resilient against strong attackers, stacking Pokemon with defensive utility and becoming difficult to overpower. By no means is the structure completely passive though, as although it lacks Spikes and multiple fast breakers to abuse them, it makes up for it by piling on explosions and/or Curse users, overwhelming defensive cores with raw brute force rather than chipping them down. Since the team has no Spikes of its own to participate in the hazard war, Dewgong Spikeless often enjoys fitting Rapid Spin (though it certainly doesn't have to), both enhancing the team's sturdiness and shoring up the Pineco weaknesses of the Curse users and Primeape that often populate this archetype. However, despite a strong chance against most other teams, Dewgong Spikeless has some really sore points. Sunny Day Ninetales of course is not fun to face unless you go for a Flareon variant, and Curse Hitmontop is difficult to muscle through without well-timed explosions in the absence of Xatu, Gastly, or Exeggcute. Perhaps more troublesome than either of these is Kingler, as it tends to outspeed nearly the entire team, usually only being stopped by Primeape hitting two consecutive Thunders (if the team even has Primeape).

Example Teams

Wiggly Top Pory Gong Spikeless


Top Tent Pory Gong Spikeless
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Deer Pory Gong Spikeless
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Wiggly Kingler Gong Spikeless


Flareon Porygon Gong Spikeless


Flareon Pidgeot Gong Spikeless
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Ninetales Gloom Spikeless


Ninetales + Gloom is a staple defensive core, playing the long game by stalling out offensive teams until they make a mistake and slowly pressuring defensive teams. Ninetales is an extremely important tank, standing in the way of Xatu, Weezing, Magnemite, and Gloom while Gloom takes on Primeape, Hidden Power Electric Octillery, and Chinchou. When paired with Rapid Spin, a way to handle Fire- and Ground-types (often Octillery or Dewgong), support against Curse Normal-types, and an additional offensive threat like a Fighting-type or Porygon, Ninetales and Gloom help form a very strong defensive team that can stamp out what Spikes offense tries to throw at it. As with all slow-leaning teams though, Kingler can be a serious issue, taking advantage of both Ninetales and the common Dewgong partner. The team also still can struggle seriously against Curse users, as Hitmontop doesn't care about Gloom's Poison typing like Primeape would and Wigglytuff and Porygon can overwhelm certain variants of the archetype.

Example Teams

Pidge Tales Gloom Spikeless


Thief Ape Pory Tales Gloom Spikeless


Top Tales Gloom Spikeless
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Omanyte Pory Tales Gloom Spikeless
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Octillery + Weezing


While this may seem like a fairly weird and quite broad distinction to make given that these are two of the best Pokemon in the tier, placing both Octillery and Weezing is a very intentional decision and not easily done recklessly. Octillery and Weezing are both extremely powerful attackers with useful defensive utility, but pairing them together rather than Rapidash + Octillery or Weezing + Dewgong tends to make a team quite vulnerable against special attackers like Xatu and Rapidash. When built properly, the two can combine to be the foundation for an extremely potent offensive team, letting other Pokemon either take on the burden of handling special attackers or aid them in simply out-offensing the opponent. The core has strong flexibility to go either the Spikes or Spikeless route, as both Pokemon still have good offensive output even without Spikes. Boom spam, Curse spam, or a combination of the two are premier ways to use the two together without suffering from a greater vulnerability to special attacks. However, one must still be careful around special attackers (Xatu especially), as it's very feasible to get overwhelmed under Spikes pressure or for booms to not hit their target. Pupitar and Dugtrio can also be extremely dangerous with Octillery being more vulnerable to them than Dewgong and pace of play not being quite as fast as Dash Oct generally is.

Example Teams

Double Normal Flareon Oct Weez Spikeless


Hitmontop Flareon Oct Weez Spikes


Wiggly Chinch Oct Weez Spikeless


Talk Persian Xatu Pupitar Oct Weez Spikes


Sudo Xatu Oct Weez Spikes


Hitmontop Fearow Oct Weez Spikeless


Sunny Tales Porygon Oct Weez Spikeless

Boom Spam


Explosion is the strongest and debatably most powerful move in all of GSC. Multiple great Pokemon, like Pineco, Weezing, Graveler, and Sudowoodo are able to explode (though Sudo has to settle with Self-Destruct), so it's natural to want to pair them together. Stacking explosions, in this case 3 (or possibly more), makes for an extremely deadly core that can break apart the sturdiest of defenses and make crucial trades against offense to open the way for a sweep. The aggressive nature of the team can be extremely overwhelming to handle and difficult to properly manage for the opponent, their key pieces in risk of elimination nearly every turn. While you can run all 4 primary Explosion users at once, most teams settle for 3 to fit room for an extra sweeper or some form of defense. Weezing and Graveler almost never leave, but Pineco can give you full control over the Spikes game while Sudowoodo synergizes excellently with Graveler, Ninetales, and Porygon by threatening to eliminate Octillery or Primeape. While this structure is extremely strong, it's of course very vulnerable to mistimed booms thudding into a resist or pre-emptive clicks causing you to lose to an unrevealed Pokemon lurking in the back, so an advantageous game state one turn can quickly transform into no longer having enough booms left to handle what the opponent throws at you. Overlapping checks to your main win condition can also prove to be troublesome, as, for example, a Weezing that would love to help out your Ninetales by exploding on their Rapidash may be stuck behind a Stantler or Xatu and have to explode on them instead.

Example Teams

Sunny Tales Spikeless Boom Spam


Porygon Spikes Boom Spam


Suicide Weezing Gloom Spikes Boom Spam


Porygon Spikeless Boom Spam
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Shuckle Stall


Despite the seeming void of offense Shuckle stall teams incorporate, they can be overwhelmingly crushing against many common teams, using all 6 team slots to fully stamp out almost any form of offense the opponent tries to throw at it. Shuckle nullifies Curse Normals and stands in the way of other dangerous threats like Stantler, Fearow, and Xatu, and in general is extremely difficult to break through without a Water, a Rock, or a non-Curse setup user. Tentacool and HP Rock Hitmontop are both strong options to eliminate Spikes with Rapid Spin, making it extremely difficult for attackers like Xatu and Rapidash to try and muscle through the team. Ninetales generally does not leave the team, giving backup against Xatu, stopping Magnemite and Sunny Day Magmar and Ninetales, and potentially taking on Weezing to prevent its Explosion from reaching Shuckle. Generally, the last 3 Pokemon are some combination of Water/Grass/Poison Pokemon to take on threats like Rapidash, Flareon, Dugtrio, Pupitar, and Primeape. For many teams, stall is extremely difficult to break through without very careful play or favorable rng, eventually getting PP stalled down to a point where a win condition like Swords Dance Bayleef, Swords Dance Gloom, or Growth Tangela can win. However, Shuckle stall goes all in on being good against the majority while leaving little room to cover for other threats, so it tends to have a couple matchups that are nearly auto losses depending on the variant. Growth Pass Flareon is basically impossible to beat without the extremely niche Haze Mantine or getting very lucky against Xatu (if they pass to it). Since Bayleef can use Toxic and Gloom and Weezing can poison with Sludge Bomb or come with Spikes support, Pupitar is generally feasible to handle; However, Rest Pupitar completely removes this option and tends to stonewall many stall variants. Swords Dance + HP Rock Kingler completely throttles stall teams without Tangela, and Substitute can still give it a chance against Tangela variants since sub blocks Giga Drain, creating prediction mind games. If Weezing can luck its way past Ninetales and has Hidden Power Water, it can potentially land Explosion on Shuckle while it's at half health or lower and put it in serious danger, and in general, boom spam with Sudowoodo isn't always fun to deal with. Meditate Fighting types like Primeape and Hitmonlee are also extremely poor matchups for non-Weezing variants.

Example Teams

Bayleef Weezing Shuckle Stall
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Gloom Spikes Shuckle Stall
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Tangela Trap Pass Shuckle Stall

Fighting Spam


Stacking Normal types is generally the most straightforward and best way to use type overlap to overwhelm the opponent, but it's certainly not the only way. Stacking Fighting types like Primeape, Hitmonlee, and even sometimes Hitmonchan can be just as, if not more, effective, especially against slower and bulkier teams where the list of checks for a Meditate Fighter are down to 1 or 2 rather than 3 or 4. Fighting spam can prey on these slow teams, which often load up 4+ Pokemon weak to Fighting moves or are reliant on Gloom, which is extremely vulnerable to boosted Normal moves. Thief Ape is a common sight, stealing Leftovers away from Weezing and Gloom and making them extremely vulnerable to random small hits and Spikes damage, clearing the way for Meditate Hitmonlee or Curse Agility Hitmonchan to break open the game. Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan, especially Reversal Hitmonlee, can sometimes singlehandedly reverse a lost game against another defensive team, and they are extremely potent tools against stall teams, especially ones without Weezing. However, seeing as Fighting spam often dedicates 2 slots (or at least 1) to Pokemon with nearly no defensive utility, and Fighters share common weaknesses to dangerous threats like Xatu, Rapidash, and Fearow, it can be very easy for these teams to get completely overwhelmed by offense when just one defensive piece becomes incapacitated. These teams also generally just require extremely careful positioning, even in good matchups, to protect the win condition and get set up safely.

Example Teams

Ninetales Reversal Lee Fighting Spam
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Curse Agility Hitmonchan Fighting Spam


Meditate Hitmonlee Fighting Spam

Rapidash Porygon Waterless Spikes


While a fairly limited and niche structure, Rapidash Porygon Spikes can be extremely potent offensively. Taking a spin on the classic Dash Xatu archetype, this structure entirely forgoes Xatu, Octillery, and Dewgong to push role compression to the maximum and make room for additional offense. With the power of 32 PP Recover and Thunder Wave, Porygon has frankly incredible defensive qualities that let it stand in the way of Xatu, Octillery, Dewgong, Stantler, Rapidash, and potentially more, making this entire effort possible. Rock types shine on this style, loading on pressure against Octillery, Dewgong, and Primeape while being useful against Normals, Rapidash, and Weezing. Type overlap especially can be very effective, doubling up on aggressive Rocks, Grounds, or Fires to really lay as much hurt as possible on Octillery and crush balance teams. In the last slot, something that helps pressure Rocks and Chinchou like Stantler or Exeggcute is often appreciated, with the latter also making life hard for Primeape. With how aggressive the structure is though, and the raw number of responsibilities Rapidash and Porygon are saddled with, the team can very easily be overwhelmed by opposing Spikes threats like Weezing, Primeape, and Octillery, often being forced on the defensive or having to resort to potentially game-deciding trades to bail you out. And, of course, if Porygon ever gets crit or statused, it's very possibly game over.

Example Teams

Pup Egg Dash Pory Spikes
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Sudo Stantler Dash Pory Spikes
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Baton Pass


Baton Pass has always been a fairly niche style, as most people tend to prefer sticking with more reliable and less fishy teams. Under the right circumstances though, BP can just completely wipe the floor with your opponent and trivialize the game. Agility passing to Swords Dance Cubone with Ledian or Farfetch'd is the most common form of BP, as a +2 Attack +2 Speed Cubone OHKOes nearly everything in the tier while only being outsped by Dugtrio. Growth Pass to Xatu is also extremely powerful, as it's very fast and +1 Psychic 2HKOes most threats while a +2 Xatu is nearly unstoppable. Other lines like passing a Swords Dance to Stantler or an Agility to Belly Drum Lickitung can also in the right situation be the better move. Screens users like Dragonair, Voltorb, and Ledian itself often (but do not always) accompany BP users like Flareon, making it significantly easier to execute the pass. There's even potential to run a two Pokemon BP core on an otherwise normal team, adding massive surprise factor that can potentially turn the tide of a losing game. However, BP strategies in general are extremely all-or-nothing, and teams tend to completely fall apart if the pass attempt doesn't automatically win the game or at least dismantle the opponent's defensive core. Dewgong can be difficult to muscle through, as it 2HKOes both Cubone and Xatu and survives both an OHKO from +2 Earthquake and and a 2HKO from +1 Psychic if at full health. Explosion users, mainly Sudowoodo and Weezing, also significantly threaten all common BP recipients with Explosion or other moves like Rock Slide and Thunder, respectively. While screens are great to help set up the pass, often they don't last long enough to really protect the pass recipient, and the pass recipient can potentially still be under huge risk of damage if the screens user is Dragonair, as it doesn't learn Explosion to end the turn and get the passer in safely.

Example Teams

Dugtrio Spikes Farfetch'd Pass


Classic Growth Pass
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Ledian Voltorb Double Pass


Farfetch'd Semi-Pass

Waterless Normal Spam


Want to spam Curse Normal types, but Dewgong is too passive for you, and you want even more firepower to try and steamroll the opponent? Simply use more Normals! Porygon + Wigglytuff is the classic combination, with one (usually Wigglytuff) taking on the duties of trying to muscle through Primeape, Pupitar, Sudowoodo, etc. while the other stays hidden in the back to win in the end game. Waterless Normal spam likes to play fast and loose (though ironically with some of the slowest Pokemon around), willing to use its Explosions extremely early or fully commit to the gambit of a Normal beating Primeape despite Cross Chop's 25% crit rate in order to advance the win condition. The style as a whole is extremely polarizing and fairly inconsistent though. If Primeape is having a good day, its Cross Chops can completely tear apart the team, but it can also miss every single one or get paralyzed by Body Slam immediately and do very little. Curse Hitmontop can be awful to deal with if Weezing is running a more standard set, but Curse Weezing makes it a non-issue. Usually, the style is forced to use their own Wigglytuff/other Normal to deal with the opponent's Curse Normal, turning the game into a long pp stall until both are useless. Boom spam can also be a huge vulnerability, as the team's gameplan against every Explosion user is to try and Curse up to where it no longer matters, but if the opponent can deduce your team fast enough or just wants to rip the booms quickly, you'll lose your ability to win the game very quickly while the opponent likely still has offense alive. Pupitar and its Screech can be annoying, but it is vulnerable to getting repeatedly hit and being paralyzed by Wigglytuff's Body Slam. What is much more problematic however are Rhyhorn, which takes almost nothing from hits and can immediately force things out with Roar rather than having to spam Screech, and Omanyte, which can click Haze to wipe all your boosts and stays around forever with RestTalk. Sunny Tales and Fires in general also have very little in the way of them 3HKOing most of the team. Across the board, Normal spam teams can just be very hit-or-miss and somewhat uninteractive, either dominating or crumbling very quickly, especially since switching out with Spikes on the field is an extremely significant momentum sink and can sometimes result in one of your pieces getting overwhelmed and dying if it tries to directly switch into an attack again.

Example Teams

Persian Graveler Normal Spam


All-Out Curse Normal Spam


Boom Spam Normal Spam

Just a reminder that this list does not necessarily encompass all viable structures, just a list of commonly used and easily categorizable structures while still covering a majority of the tier. There are definitely other strong things you can do without directly adhering to one of these structures, and I encourage creativity and experimentation. I am also well aware that some example teams may also fit under another category, but they are where they are for purposes of organization. This is also not a comprehensive list of every structure's strengths and weaknesses and what they do, just a solid litany covering some of the more important aspects. I hope you find this information useful and thank you for reading.