Other Tiers GSC without the Time Capsule?

[Questions Frog]

What would GSC have looked like if Bill never invented the Time Capsule?

With no backwards compatibility with RBY, much of what we know from the second generation changes drastically. Certain Pokémon are no longer available (most notably Zapdos, to a lesser degree Charizard), and certain RBY TM moves have their distribution narrowed (most notably Explosion, but also moves like Body Slam, Swords Dance and Substitute). Going down the current viability ranking list, the mainstays of GSC are subject to the following changes:

Snorlax loses Selfdestruct and Double-Edge. These are not huge losses for what is still the undisputed king of the hill, who can still get by perfectly well with the still wide movepool, but the lack of these hard-hitting, self-harming moves do take some options away for Snorlax.

Zapdos is no longer a part of GSC.

Raikou does not change whatsoever.

Cloyster loses Explosion, the main reason to justify spending a whole teamslot on Spikes. Moreover, as Cloyster learns Rapid Spin through a breeding chain that requires both Kabutops and Blastoise, it loses that move as well. This is obviously a huge hit for Cloyster.

Exeggutor, much like Cloyster, loses Explosion. From there, Exeggutor stays more or less the same, keeping both of its status moves as well as the variety of Special attacks. A minor loss is Substitute, which could have been useful for an Explosion-less Exeggutor with Leech Seed.

Skarmory can only learn Whirlwind and Drill Peck through breeding, and the only way to teach it both is through having the father be a Fearow or Dodrio who learned Whirlwind in RBY. Will Steel Wing or HP Flying be the most suitable replacement for Drill Peck?

Steelix, like Cloyster and Exeggutor, loses Explosion. It also loses Body Slam, which could have been one of the go-to replacement moves for Explosion, to spread paralysis. Maybe Rock Slide Steelix is the best option left, or will Rest find its way into the main set?

Gengar, again, loses Explosion. It takes away its most powerful move and makes it a bit less unpredictable, but is not going to be a huge loss. The remaining moves stay.

Tyranitar suffers no consequences.

Vaporeon suffers no consequences.

Marowak loses Swords Dance, which is huge. Gone is the possibility to reach 999 Attack in one turn. It still has access to its attacking moves, and maybe a RestTalk set could get the job done without Swords Dance.

Suicune does not change whatsoever.

Machamp loses Rock Slide, but since Zapdos is no longer a part of the game, it’s hard to say how important this loss really is. The remaining threats can be met by moves Machamp can still learn.

Nidoking suffers no consequences.

Forretress suffers no consequences.

Starmie suffers no consequences.

Misdreavus suffers no consequences.

Miltank suffers no consequences.

Umbreon suffers no consequences.

Some observations to start: The absence of Zapdos, in combination with Explosion now being limited to Golem, Electrode, Weezing and Forretress, appears to have killed Explosion offense on the spot here. Speaking of Forretress, this is probably going to be the biggest winner here, definitely taking Cloyster’s place as the go-to Spikes user since it still learns both Explosion and Rapid Spin by level-up.

What are your thoughts and observations? Who do you think would have been the biggest winners and losers in GSC if the Time Capsule had never been invented?

 

[Enigami]

Zapdos wouldn't be absent, NYPC gave away shiny Legendary Birds, shiny Mewtwo and Mew. Being locked to Shiny DVs means Hidden Power is locked to either Dragon or Grass though, and 10 DVs in everything but Attack instead of 15. So all Legendary Birds and Mewtwo, all get a nerf (Mewtwo less than the birds, since it never needed Hidden Power). Moltres lucks out getting the Hidden Power it wants anyway, Articuno loses out on HP Electric, and Zapdos really gets hurt by being limited to HP Grass, requiring spending a slot on Drill Peck to hit Grass-types and ensuring Steelix and Nidoking (and Gligar) only take neutral non-STAB damage. Rhydon, Golem & Piloswine take a hit with Zapdos much more likely to have the hardest hitting coverage against them.

Ancient Power Bulbasaur, Crunch Charmander, Zap Cannon Squirtle and Rock Throw fossils are also obtainable. Since you can breed the Squirtle and Kabuto, you can complete the chain to obtain Cloyster with Rapid Spin.

Marowak gets Swords Dance via breeding, not TM (it didn't even get SD in RBY), so Marowak is still fully intact.

Without Explosion, Swords Dance or Softboiled from Gen 1, Mew would likely drop to OU.

Edit: Also, with Shiny Zapdos, its base speed essentially drops by 5, speed tieing Jynx and Houndoom. Miltank, Charizard and Tentacruel all now fully outspeed instead of speed-tieing. Less importantly, Dodrio, Raichu, Entei & Raticate outspeed, and Primeape now speed ties and can beat a Zapdos that switched into Meditate or Rock Slide, so some of those low tiers could get a small bump in viability.

 

[Jorgen]

Man, wasn't there an option in Netbattle to play "pure" GSC like this? I don't think I ever gave it a whirl and its ruleset was probably wrong in several ways, but it caught my attention for a hot minute.

Anyway, Marowak doesn't actually seem to get SD because it needs a breeding partner to know it. Marowak isn't in the Field group so Smeargle is out. Lickitung is in its Egg group but can only learn SD via RBY TM. Bulbasaur-line and Charmander-line pokes also only have access to the move via RBY TM. So it ends up being like Snorlax having Charm as an Egg move. Cool, but nobody that learns Charm wants to get freaky with a Snorlax :(

Skarm almost certainly goes with HP Flying. Machamp and Accuracy would probably be the biggest pushes.

Doesn't Starmie suffer the loss of Reflect and Thunder Wave? Those are not core to its main role, but they cut into its secondary functions.

A lazy, cursory glance seems to show that things look good for tanks that never die. Nerfs to Marowak's and Snorlax's damage outputs allow things like Skarmory, Suicune, and Umbreon to breathe a lot easier. Same with the Zapdos nerf with respect to Snorlax: what else can possibly target it on the Special side? Raikou isn't quite up to the task, nor is a SpA-nerfed Zapdos.

 

[Questions Frog]

Zapdos wouldn't be absent, NYPC gave away shiny Legendary Birds, shiny Mewtwo and Mew. Being locked to Shiny DVs means Hidden Power is locked to either Dragon or Grass though, and 10 DVs in everything but Attack instead of 15. So all Legendary Birds and Mewtwo, all get a nerf (Mewtwo less than the birds, since it never needed Hidden Power). Moltres lucks out getting the Hidden Power it wants anyway, Articuno loses out on HP Electric, and Zapdos really gets hurt by being limited to HP Grass, requiring spending a slot on Drill Peck to hit Grass-types and ensuring Steelix and Nidoking (and Gligar) only take neutral non-STAB damage. Rhydon, Golem & Piloswine take a hit with Zapdos much more likely to have the hardest hitting coverage against them.

Ancient Power Bulbasaur, Crunch Charmander, Zap Cannon Squirtle and Rock Throw fossils are also obtainable. Since you can breed the Squirtle and Kabuto, you can complete the chain to obtain Cloyster with Rapid Spin.

Marowak gets Swords Dance via breeding, not TM (it didn't even get SD in RBY), so Marowak is still fully intact.

Without Explosion, Swords Dance or Softboiled from Gen 1, Mew would likely drop to OU.

Edit: Also, with Shiny Zapdos, its base speed essentially drops by 5, speed tieing Jynx and Houndoom. Miltank, Charizard and Tentacruel all now fully outspeed instead of speed-tieing. Less importantly, Dodrio, Raichu, Entei & Raticate outspeed, and Primeape now speed ties and can beat a Zapdos that switched into Meditate or Rock Slide, so some of those low tiers could get a small bump in viability.

I didn't know about all those NYPC event Pokémon. Thank you for pointing this out! You are probably right on most of these points, though not on Marowak, as Jorgen explains. I should have been more specific on that one.

Man, wasn't there an option in Netbattle to play "pure" GSC like this? I don't think I ever gave it a whirl and its ruleset was probably wrong in several ways, but it caught my attention for a hot minute.

Anyway, Marowak doesn't actually seem to get SD because it needs a breeding partner to know it. Marowak isn't in the Field group so Smeargle is out. Lickitung is in its Egg group but can only learn SD via RBY TM. Bulbasaur-line and Charmander-line pokes also only have access to the move via RBY TM. So it ends up being like Snorlax having Charm as an Egg move. Cool, but nobody that learns Charm wants to get freaky with a Snorlax :(

Skarm almost certainly goes with HP Flying. Machamp and Accuracy would probably be the biggest pushes.

Doesn't Starmie suffer the loss of Reflect and Thunder Wave? Those are not core to its main role, but they cut into its secondary functions.

A lazy, cursory glance seems to show that things look good for tanks that never die. Nerfs to Marowak's and Snorlax's damage outputs allow things like Skarmory, Suicune, and Umbreon to breathe a lot easier. Same with the Zapdos nerf with respect to Snorlax: what else can possibly target it on the Special side? Raikou isn't quite up to the task, nor is a SpA-nerfed Zapdos.

You are right about Starmie. I missed those key moves going down the list. I agree that the metagame would most likely slow down considerably; how on Earth do you actually score knockouts now?