Heatran (RestTalk) [QC 0/3]

Thundur

QC Approvals:



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Heatran

[SET]
name: RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Lava Plume
move 4: Roar
item: Shed Shell / Leftovers
trait: Flash Fire
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe

Set Comments
  • With Rest giving Heatran new life, this set lasts a lot longer than the standard specially defensive set
  • Sleep Talk makes Roar normal priority
  • Great vs. Dugtrio teams, especially Sun
  • Shed Shell is the preferred item due to escaping Dugtrio and other trappers. With Rest as a source of recovery, Leftovers are not as necessary
  • Leftovers can be used if Dugtrio teams are not a problem

Additional Comments
  • 248 HP EVs are used to take minimal damage from entry hazards
  • 240 SpD EVs allow Heatran to take special hits with ease
  • 20 Spe EVs are used to outspeed most other defensive Heatran and standard Bulk Up Breloom
  • Flamethrower can be used for the damage boost, although Heatran loses out on the larger 30% burn chance
  • An alternative spread of 248 HP / 100 SpD / 160 Spe with a Calm nature can be used to outspeed 252 Spe Scizor, although Heatran can not take special hits as well as he can with 240 SpD EVs

Teammates, Checks, and Counters
  • Since there is no room for Stealth Rock on this set, a Pokemon to set up Stealth Rock is highly appreciated
  • Clerics are appreciated to wipe away Heatrans sleep, especially Celebi, Vaporeon, and Roserade, as they have great type synergy, as well
  • Celebi and other Grass-types are great teammates due to being able to take on some of the best counters to this set: Rotom-W, Jellicent, Slowbro, and other Water-type Pokemon
  • Rapid Spinners are appreciated, since Heatran is vulnerable to both Stealth Rock and Spikes
  • Landorus, Terrakion, and other wielders of super effective attacks are large threats to this set
 
With ground / fighting moves so common, will you actually have time to resttalk? Even water moves are really common and with the crap sleep mechanics this gen you can't really do much. You have to stay in a few turns to recover health again, you can't switch in, take a hit and switch out. You'll be forced out half the time, and even on something you should normally intimidate (Scizor, Ferro), you have a 33% show of hitting them. Now Roar also has a 33% chance to hit, but Scizor KO's first with Superpower. I'm trying to say you'll be forced out way to much and you get rid of Heatran's scaring away Steels ability.
 
^ Gyarados is also forced out very easy, while also having a SR weakness, and it can still run a very effective RestTalk set, so Heatran can definitely do it too, with more resistances, better bulk, neutrality to SR and immunity to SS.
 
This set has some merit. I've never like Heatran's lack of recovery when using it as a defensive Pokemon. I actually used this set last gen for some pretty fine looking results, and I know others have too.

However, there is one really major thing holding this back: the 5th gen sleep mechanics. This thing can be really easy to play around. You can easily just hit Heatran with an attack as it sleeps on turn 1, bring in something that can kill it in turn 2 and force it out, and then you kind of repeat the cycle. The reason RestTalk sets are rare this gen is simply how easily you can exploit them now. You can even bring in, say Swords Dance Terrakion or DD Gyarados into it as it falls asleep. Does Heatran risk 33% + 30% x 33% to either get a burn or phaze the opponent when they can just setup easily? Not saying this is a bad set, but you will have to have a big mention on how damn exploitable RestTalk mons are this gen, and by extension, this set.
 
For the reasons that Shrang mentioned, a cleric would be greatly appreciated as a teammate. Celebi, Roserade and Vaporeon are all sturdy clerics and have good synergy with Heatran.
 
@shrang

As for your first point, yes, with sleep mechanics, Heatran can be forced out to reset sleep turns. However, if you bring Heatran (while it is sleeping) in vs. a non-threat, you have a 66% chance to get a turn to either get damage and a 30% chance to get a burn off with Lava Plume, or to get a Roar off, in which case, if you get a non-threat on the shuffle, you get another turn to Sleep Talk and rack up hazard damage. Once all of Heatran's threats have been eliminated through repeatedly switching in and taking entry hazard damage and Lava Plume +possible burn damage, Heatran will have room to break out of sleep. Basically, repeating the cycle of switch to a Pokemon that forces Heatran out will wear down the opposing Pokemon, as well.

As for Pokemon setting up on this, I don't really think that is a valid point. The examples you used, SD Terrakion and DD Gyarados threaten awake Heatran as well. Either way, they will usually get a free turn of set up, unless you stay in, risking being OHKOed. Even if they do get a +2 or +1/+1, if your team can not handle the Pokemon, that is a team building fault, not the set's.


@alexwolf

Clerics will be added in the teammates section.
 
However, if you bring Heatran (while it is sleeping) in vs. a non-threat, you have a 66% chance to get a turn to either get damage or a burn off with Lava Plume, or to get a Roar off, in which case, if you get a non-threat on the shuffle, you get another turn to Sleep Talk and rack up hazard damage.
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Just saying, you don't have 66% chance of getting either one. Lava Plume does not have a 100% burn rate, even if PO makes it look like it has one. So that's 33% (Roar) + 30% x 33% (Lava Plume) = 43% chance.
 
You should just re-write the on-site SpD set (which really needs an update anyway) and give a heavy emphasis to RestTalk in AC if this is actually as good as you claim. I, for one, hate using RestTalk in BW, but Tran does have that 30% burn rate STAB Lave Plume + a phazing move, so I guess it could work like Lax and Milo do in UU (the only RT mons I'd use this gen).

Anyway, the point is this seems to play very similarly to the regular SpD set, it just uses a different recovery method (if Protect even counts as a recovery method?), so yahhh.
 
alexwolf said:
For the reasons that Shrang mentioned, a cleric would be greatly appreciated as a teammate. Celebi, Roserade and Vaporeon are all sturdy clerics and have good synergy with Heatran.
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If you are using Vappy as a team mate for Heatran, being a cleric IMO would't be the best route, just Wish Pass. Celebi and Roserade are good though and I would mention that Roserade has Spikes/Toxic Spikes which Heatran can easily abuse.
 
kokoloko said:
You should just re-write the on-site SpD set (which really needs an update anyway) and give a heavy emphasis to RestTalk in AC if this is actually as good as you claim. I, for one, hate using RestTalk in BW, but Tran does have that 30% burn rate STAB Lave Plume + a phazing move, so I guess it could work like Lax and Milo do in UU (the only RT mons I'd use this gen).

Anyway, the point is this seems to play very similarly to the regular SpD set, it just uses a different recovery method (if Protect even counts as a recovery method?), so yahhh.
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The two sets actually play differently. Regular SpD Tran does not carry the staying power this set does, and is easily trapped by Dugtrio, failing to deal with a large part of Sun teams. Once a regular SpD Tran takes entry hazards and a couple of hits, it will be in poor condition for the rest of the match. This set can easily Rest off the damage.


@shrang

Sorry, I worded that wrong. I meant to say that Tran has a 66% chance to get off a Roar or a Lava Plume. If Tran does get Lava Plume, it has a 30% chance of getting a burn.
 
Thundur said:
The two sets actually play differently. Regular SpD Tran does not carry the staying power this set does, and is easily trapped by Dugtrio, failing to deal with a large part of Sun teams. Once a regular SpD Tran takes entry hazards and a couple of hits, it will be in poor condition for the rest of the match. This set can easily Rest off the damage.
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This set doesn't have much staying power either (and is also trapped by Dugtrio [edit: to clarify, I meant when Shed Shell is gone]). In fact, this probably has less staying power than most Tran. You're right in saying all Tran are easily forced out, and that's exactly what makes this set so hard to use. You need to wake up to actually use your recovery effectively, and to do that you need to stay in a few turns. So Resting off the damage isn't as easy as you think it will be. You will rarely get a chance to Rest after your first one because you'll be asleep. Also, taking residual damage hurts this set maybe even more than S.Def. When your take damage, you lose health, and when you lose health, you lose time on the field, and when you lose time on the field, you don't have time to wake up, and when you don't have time to wake up, you can't Rest, and when you're sleeping and can't Rest and have low health, you're dead. Like it was said before, 5th gen sleep mechanics kill this set.
 
I made a resttalk set about a month or two ago before I took a break on competitive battling, and it worked very well, but I had a more defensive, trapping set. The set was-

Heatran@Binding Band
Careful Nature
EVs: 252 hp/252 Sp. Def/4 Sp. Atk
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Magma Storm
-Will-o-Wisp/Earth Power

Now, before you say this is just a trapping set, and doesn't really have the resttalk niche, it works on more residual damage, through binding band, hazards, and the switches heatran forces. Send heatran in on something it can force a switch on and either rest if low on hp, or magma storm, the pokemon that switched in will now be against a full hp heatran, or will have taken a lot of damage due to the stab fire attack that is magma storm, plus residual damage, plus 1/8 of thier hp due to binding band.The secondary effect of sleep talk, allowing the move selected to use no pp, lets you use magma storm a lot, without worry of losing out on it. Will-o-wisp helps a lot, because nothing wants a burn, except for some walls, and magic guard users. It also helps heatran's uninvested defensive side. If opposing heatrans are giving your team trouble though, then I'd suggest Earth Power, but this heatran set isn't the best for killing other heatrans. Hoping you'll take this into consideration.

Now onto your set: Well, the first two moves are mandatory(rest and sleep talk), I also like the idea of roar. When you make this set, may I suggest to slash magma storm with lava plume? Or maybe put it in the AC? I find it would work very well with this set, since this gives heatran the recovery it needs to give constant residual damage. Also for the user that said something about the common attacking types of fighting, ground, and water, that won't be a problem, because who switches heatran into a pokemon with a ground, water, or fighting attack unless they're completely new to the competitive game.

Edit: Dugtrio can't really switch on heatran due to magma storm's constant residual damage, that's also another bonus of it. Decided to mention this since a lot of comments involve the lack of an answer to dugtrio. Also for the people complaining about all the residual damage he will receive from switching in and out, maybe the OP could have something about rapid spin support in the AC? Well, I'm done. Go enjoy your day!
 
No way would I run your set Ambicrow3. I don't want to come across as harsh, but its just utter bait for a lot of pokemon to switch in, and force you out. For example, Sub DD Gyarados is getting a free DD, Dragonite is getting a free DD, Sub SD Terrakion can set up a Sub or SD and your only 2 moves bar Rest Talk are moves that have shocking accuracy. Running Roar means that you can at least dissuade your opponent from setting up easily, something your set doesn't do.

When you make this set, may I suggest to slash magma storm with lava plume? Or maybe put it in the AC?
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Magma Storm already has a mention in a set of its own. I personally don't see a reason why I would run Magma Storm on a set like this which has way too little PP (even with sleep talk) and on a set thats build around hanging around for as long as possible, you want a high PP STAB move like Lava Plume which also has the cool 30% burn rate. What is Magma Storm doing for you on this set, trapping shit that is going to force you out anyway?
 
Trapping wasn't really the purpose of magma storm, but the additional 1/8 of the opponents health it deteriorates after that turn.
 
Ambicrow3 said:
Trapping wasn't really the purpose of magma storm, but the additional 1/8 of the opponents health it deteriorates after that turn.
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I'd rather just burn them and do more damage .-.
also, Magma Storm just takes 1/16th, not 1/8th
also, Magma Storm seems counterproductive when you have Roar .-.
 
ShakeItUp said:
I'd rather just burn them and do more damage .-.
also, Magma Storm just takes 1/16th, not 1/8th
also, Magma Storm seems counterproductive when you have Roar .-.
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My bad, for some reason I thought 1/8th. With that said I retract my comment (not sure if that is possible).
 
QC Rejected [1/3]

Resttalk is awful in BW, no need to explain why. What I see here is a specially defensive Heatran with Shed Shell and a bad recovery method thrown on. This set does not have some special niche of being able to run Shed Shell, and it isn't good at doing so running a Resttalk set without Leftovers. You have two more moves with normal SpD Tran and better recovery with even Protect, Wish support being another tier up.
 
The QC team are in agreement that Shed Shell should really go, so for this to have a chance at getting a stamp. I personally, would also like to see some logs of this set in action since we remain sceptical of its use in a metagame where Landorus and Terrakion are extremely common.

EDIT nvm we had further discussion

QC Rejected 2/3
 
Yeah, RestTalk is just poor this gen, unless your name is like Giratina or something.

QC REJECTED 3/3
 
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